T. HAUftfATAO.j

Q ; -~2.

65. Is it for the purpose of procuring this 18,000 acres?— The union is combined, for the purpose of remedying the injury that we are suffering.--66. And was it in respect of the 18,000 acres that you went to Wellington to see Sir James Carroll ?—What ■we went to Sir James Carroll for was to ask for some land, and it was he who 'said that it would be the 18,000 acres that would be returned to us. 67. And would that satisfy you if you got the 18,000 acres returned? —Well, if we find that it is sufficient for us, well and good, but we do not think it is likely to be sufficient among the great number of Natives there are. 68. If the Natives get all the lands there are available outside of those under the Act of 1892, that will give each one 13J acres: do you agree with that statement? —Do you think acres is sufficient for a man? 69. You ask for those 18,000 acres?— Yes. 70. Do you ask to lease it from the Public Trustee?—We ask for the return.of the 18,000 acres under the Act which makes the tenure twenty-one years, and then the land reverts to the Natives. 71. Do I understand that the Maoris ask to hold that land without any intervention of the Public Trustee? —What we ask is that the land should be returned to vs —that is, shall be individualized amongst us, and that we shall receive proper titles, just the same as the European has. '- 72. You agree with the chief our your union, Kahu Pukoro, in wanting the land back individualized in order to deal with it exactly the same as the Europeans?— Yes. ■-'-- 73. If you got the return of the 18,000 acres to be so individualized, who will determine the area that each Native is to hold? —If this land is returned to us we will rely upon our lawyer to assist the union to come to a conclusion. Our lawyer will advise the union, and we will assist him. He could get the services of some one to make the allocation. 74. So that the union, with the assistance of this lawyer and other assistance if necessary, would allocate and individualize the area to be held by each Native? —I have said that we will get the assistance of our solicitor, and the union, with his advice and suggestions, would have the land allocated. 75. Now, when do you propose doing this —after the European lease runs out or before?— How could we do it when it is not in our possession ? When we got possession of it it will be done. When the Maoris have it returned to them and it is in their possession, then they will proceed to do what I have said 76. Are you aware that the European, when his lease runs out, will be entitled to be paid for his improvements up to £5 per acre? —In my opinion, the lessees have already received full compensation from the fat of the land. 77. Now, I understand a great deal of the land that is yet left for the Natives is in bush — land outside the 18,000 acres? —Do you mean lands that the Natives are occupying? 78. No, the lands that they are not occupying but which they have a right to occupy?— Some of it is bush. 79. In your scheme do you propose that the Europeans should cut the bush down for the Maoris, or that the Maoris should cut the bush down themselves? —If the land is returned to us it will open up an avenue, so that with our titles we could procure money in order to do the work ourselves, and the Maoris would do it. 80. If these 18,000 acres are returned to the Maoris, they purpose felling the bush upon the bush lands? —Yes. 81. If you are not successful in getting back the 18,000 acres, how do you propose getting the bush felled upon the bush lands? —We are asking that the restrictions shall be removed, and we shall get the titles, so that we can do this work. 82. What do you mean by " that the restrictions shall be removed "1 —Do you not know that we are now in the hands of the Public Trustee —our lands and our bodies are tied and bound to him. .83. And what do you wish in removing those restrictions?-—I say that if the restrictions were removed we shall be placed upon the same footing as the Europeans. 84. In holding the lands? —Yes. 85. Without any Public Trustee? —Well, perhaps you are more intelligent than I am, but 1 have said that when we get the titles we would have possession of the land. Before we get the titles we are still in the hands of the Public Trustee, and until we get the titles we cannot tell the Public Trustee to shift at all. When we get possession, then the Public Trustee will have no right. 86. I want you to assume that the law will not give back to the Maori the 18,000 acres. In such a case, how do you propose dealing with the bush lands and getting the bush down? —You are sticking to this question, and I have replied to it several times. 87. Tell me once again? —I cannot reply to that question. You are telling us that you are not going to give us an avenue to get any money. 88. Mr. Kerr.~\ Do you know why it was that these lands were vested in the Public Trustee w hy these reserves were set apart?—l do not know why. The reserves that were returned to us were placed in the hands of the Public Trustee. Poitutu Warihi Remene sworn and examined. (No. 29.) 1. Mr. Bell.] Have you any land ? —Yes. 2. Is it in jour own possession? —Yes. 3. Whereabouts? —At Ngatitu, Hikurangi Block, 26 acres. .. 4/Is that under occupation license? —Yes. 5. What is the condition of those 26 acres? —It is still in bush. 6. How long have you had it?— Five years 7. Have you got any other land? —Yes.

83