PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuapeka Times, Volume VII, Issue 357, 20 May 1874, Page 4

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

t I Thtjbsday, Mat 14. The Hon. the Speaker took the chair at 2 p.m. PETITIONS. Mr. DAVIE presented a petition from residents in the districts through which the Port Chalmers Railway runs, praying that trains might be run at hours suitable to the •working classes, say 6 o'clock in the evening from Dunedin, and 7 o'clock in the morning from Port Chalmers. Mr. R. CLARKE presented a petition from Mr. James Cooper, Arthur's Point, praying for redress of grievances arising through a road being run through his property. Mr. M'NEIL presented a petition from 147 residents in the Popotunoa and Wairuna districts j Mr. ROBERTS one from 235 residents in the Green Island district; and Mr. TESCHEMAKER one from 350 residents in the Moeraki district, against the running of trains on the Port Chalmers Railway on Sundays. Mr. KINROSS presented a petition from residents in the Makarewa district, praying that they might be transferred to the Lindis Road District. QUESTIONS. Tiger Him..— Mr. HAZLETT asked the Secretary for Lands if the Government would lay upon the table the correspondence that took place between the runholder or any other person and the Government that led to the exchange of part of a block of land, formerly opened on the agricultural lease system, at Tiger Hill (Run No. 223). Mr. REID said there was no objection to lay the correspondence on the table. He had already given instructions to get it copied. Maerewhenua.— Mr. SUMPTER asked the Provincial Secretary why the resolutions in reference to laying off a township at Maerewhenua, and erection of a bridge across the Macrewhenua river at the terminus of the Awamoko railway, had not been given effect to? Mr. REID, referring to the first part of the" motion, said that the reason a township had not been laid off was because the survey staff was inadequate to undertake at once all the demands made upon it. Instructions were given to the Survey Department to get this township kid off, and the Chief Surveyor had explained that it was impossible for him to .overtake the work. If a surveyor wasnot then on the ground he would be shortly. Regarding the latter part of the question, as to the erection of a bridge, he had to explain that it was found impossible to grant part of the £5,000 set apart for some of these, works. The latest information he could get was that the late Secretary for Works would look into the matter when he was in the district. Mr. BASTINGS explained that no money was available for the work from the sum of £5,000. MOTIONS. Mining Engineer. — Mr. REEVES moved, " That, in the opinion of this Council, it is desirable that the services of an experienced Mining Engineer or Inspector be secured for the province." The hon. member explained that there were many persons connected with mines who had lost money, and considered that matters at the seat of operations were not satisfactory ; and it had occurred to them, that if they appointed a gentlemen such as he Bad mentioned, he would be able to visit 'the different mining companies' works and • report, and place in the possession of those persons in charge of the machinery and workiag of the mine proper and accurate information regarding gold-mining. By carrying out - this suggestion the Council would be conferring a boon upon this industry. Many of those connected with mines would be willing to contribute towards the services of such an officer. He spoke on behalf of four or five different mining companies, and this, he thought, would be the first and proper. step towards the establishment of a School of Mines. Mr. FISH seconded the motion. . Mr. STOUT pointed out that, if such an officer was appointed, it would be only reasonable for others to urge that an officer connected with other industries should be appointed ; and he did not know why this particular industry should be singled out. He agreed with much that' the hon. member- had said, but did not think it was a matter for the Government to deal with. No doubt as much had been lost in consequence of bad farming as bad mining, and he did not see why the Government should step in' to stop that more than in any other case. Mr. R. CLARKE supported the motion, and hoped that some day. even the General Government would see the necessity of supporting such an officer or officers en behalf of the colony. Mr. M'KELLARwouldsupportthe motion, only on the faith that the hon. member (Mr. Reeves) would introduce a further motion, framing regulations making it compulsory on the companies in this province to pay a sufficient sum each to defray the expense of a Mining Engineer, and for the payment of an engineer on a fixed salary. He then explained that double the amount of the gold obtained was actually wasted, and that.the appointment of such an officer would tend to remedy this. Mr. J. C. BROWN supported the motion, and said he considered there should also he appointed a Professor of Chemistry. They would be able to realise their position in reference to the loss of gold. They had induced a gentleman to take the appointment of Geologist. It was well known that it would take some years for him to complete the duties in hand,.and they might appoint another gentleman who would lend valuable assistance and - help to complete the geological labours. Mr. WOOD would support the motion if the suggestion thrown out by Mr. M'Kellar Was accepted. Mr. REID had heard the remarks of the hon. member (Mr. M'Kellar) with surprise, to the effect that the mining companies in the province extracted one-third of the precious metal, and that two-thirds of it went to waste. He must say that it redounded very little to the credit of the superior, intellectual, and business-like men engaged in that industry, •that after having gone to the expense of obtaining all the necessary labour, bringing in water, and paying duties to the Government, they should for the sake of a little more expense lose, two-thirds of the precious metal. He feared that if they appointed such an officer it would be followed by the organisation of another staff in the Government service ; and then when the time for retrenchment came those discharged would require compensation. .(Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Reid) then referred to a resolution carried by Mr.- De Latour last session, to the effect that the Government should obtain the services' of competent scientific officers to report upon the deep leads, &c., in the goldfielda ; and said he did not see in his Honor's opening address that any steps had been taken in the matter. In reply to the remarks of the hon. member (Mri M'Kellar), he said that if the gentlemen referred to would say they would employ an officer such as had been mentioned, the Government would bring him here, and contribute something towards his salary. But so far as the debate had. gone he ' did not think the Government would be justified in agreeing to the motion. He would not like to see the motion negatived, because 'it could not.. again come up during the session, - - but, the hon. member might withdraw the vmdtion, and. bring it- before the Council again in a way that might enable the Government ' in office to. give effect to it. • Mir. OLIVER" thought the discussion pointed to the necessity for the establishment, - in' connection with, the University, of a School "' of Mines. Evidently the loss referred to had not occurred through the want of intelligence ' ' or enterprise, buteimply through the want of - trained skilL • ■ . The motion was carried. WANT OF CONFIDENCE. Mr. BASTINGS moved, "That the com-

he confidence of the Council." The hon. nember said that no doubt he should lay limself open to the accusation that, in moving ihis motion, he had not been actuated by jublic motives. Had he consulted his own reelings he would not have moved it, but he iad been requested to do so by a very large section of that House ; and he thought credit ivould be given him for bringing the motion forward in an open, straightforward, and honourable manner. (Hear, hear.) He was not actuated by any factious motive. If he carried the motion, — and he believed it would be carried, — he would be prepared to take the responsibility ; and, if the motion was lost, it would not be found that he was desirous of pursuing any factious opposition. It might also be attributed to him that he was prompted by personal pique in reference to his late colleagues. He emphatically denied that that was the case. He also wished to state emphatically that he had not been fairly treated by his colleagues, who now sat on the Government benches ; he said this because his introduction into official life was through the gentleman who lately held the position of Provincial Secretary. He claimed equal credit with the ' hon. members, Mr. Turnbull and Dr. Webster, in having made great personal and pecuniary sacrifice in taking office, and he had endeavoured faithfully, honestly, and loyally to support his colleagues in office. (Applause.) He considered he had a fair right to assume that the position taken by his late colleagues was that, it being considered desirable to carry out public works in this province, they also thought it was necessary that sales of large blocks of land should take place. He might add that he was on that point in dead opposition to them ; and he would be to any other body of politicians who endeavoured to force such a policy upon the Council. (Applause.) Seeing that upon that ground his late colleagues differed with him, he apprehended they had found the present Provincial Secretary (Mr. Reid) had shifted his ground somewhat in that respect, and therefore that his views better accorded with their own than did his (Mr. Bastings's). He (Mr. Bastings) had been accused of favouring the gold-fields during his administration. He emphatically denied that he had. He based bis denial on the report before the Speaker — the report of the public works carried out in the province j and he challenged hon. members to say that he had done anything that was more than was fair for the gold-fields. He would say this, that up to the tune of his taking office the goldfields never had anything like a fair share of the public revenues of the province. There was a strong feeling to ignore the gold-fields. He stood there to advocate not one interest, but one common interest — the good of all. But many of the gold-fields districts had become prosperous agricultural districts. For instance, in the Tuapeka and Wakatipu districts there were something like 11,000 acres of agricultural land under crop. A great amount of settlement had taken place in many of these towns, and all this had been brought about by the pioneers of the goldfields, who penetrated country which could not have been occupied for years had not that class of men come to Otago. He considered that the sale of large blocks of land would be detrimental to the interests of the country, and there he joined issue with his late colleagues now in office. He would state the differences existing between him and the Government in reference to the land policy. The Provincial Secretary had stated that he thought the present deferred-payment blocks were insufficient for the support of a family. To that extent, he agreed with the hon. gentleman ; and he would be in favour of increasing the area of those blocks. But the point on which he disagreed with him was in reference to selling intervening blocks between these deferred-payment blocks at £2 per acrej because it seemed to him an anomaly that while colonists, upon deferred payments, could get land at 14s. lOd. an acre, those whe were prepared to pay ready money must paj £2 per acre. (Hear, hear.) He said tha( that was unreasonable — illogical on the fact of it. He would be prepared to extend tht present area of the deferred-payment blocks tc 300 and 350 acres ; but he thought the proposition to force any settler to pay £2 pel acre for land which others could get ov credit for 14s. lOd. was an impolitic and unjust course. Then, as regarded the sale oi large blocks under the 150 th clause of the Waste Land Act, he apprehended there was but one opinion in that House in reference to the undesirability of selling large blocks of pastoral land. He was sure the Provincial Secretary, if he carried out the views he had held for many years, and the Provincial Solicitor and the hon. member foi Invercargill (Mr. Lumsden), would be »pposed to the sale in large blocks of pastora land wlueh in five years would probably b< considered good agricultural land. It might b< argued that those in power never intended tc sell these large blocks; that they only wanted tht power to do so, as a last resource ; but if thai power were once granted it would be a strong argument for the gentlemen in Wellington When they knew the Council had sanctionec the sale of these large blocks, it would havi the effect of precluding them getting any loai which theymightwantto carry outpublic work) in the province. It was the duty of hon. mem bers to carefully watch the public estates, an< to see that no land slipped through thei fingers except what was necessary for boni fide settlement. If the pastoral lands wer let out in small blocks, instead of being sol< in large blocks, they would bring in a revenu of £204,166 13s. 4d. He then referred t lands being sold at £1 per acre which wouli in a few years be worth from £4 to £5 a: acre j and said it would be far wiser for th Government to borrow money to carry ou necessary public works, and retain their landi and let them increase in value, than t sacrifice them for carrying out public worki and enhancing the price of them merely f c the benefit of private individuals. A loa had been obtained for the Northern part c the province, and he thought they had s good ground to go to the Assembly and ask fc loans for the Western and Southern portion It had been said of his late colleague, th Provincial Treasurer (Mr. Turnbull), that h desired to bury the hatchet. And certainl; it did look as if he would bury it in the ver heart of this country, and bleed it to death b selling large blocks of land. (Laughter.) H (Mr. Bastings) was prepared to unsheath th sword and fight to the bitter end rather tha do that. (Laughter and applause.) The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY nei addressed the Council. He commented i some letigtli. upon tne objection tna-t liarl t?ee made to the sale of land in large block After which he said the hon. member ha entered into contracts to the extent c £140,000 after the financial year had closet and when it was illegal to do so. He w* aware that the Government , included som who were parties to the transaction ; but 1 contended that that did not at all affect h position. That position was not of his ow seeking ; he had been asked to .undertake tl task, and it was one no honest man coul avoid. This engagement had been entere into with the view of carrying out the polic enunciated in his speech, or rather he shou] say his homily. Without having recourse ( that action, he would defy the hon. gentle man to carry out the policy so enunciated if loan were not granted. The Government on] ■asked to do so as a last resort. He had n more desire than the mover of the motion I sell large blocks of land. If he had such s objection to the sale of land in large block how was it that during the last sitting < Council a proposal had been made by hin having for its - object the sale of a larj extent of land in the Northern distri of the province? The speaker then quote resolutions introduced by Mr. Bastings fort! construction of branch lines of railway in tt Northern and Western districts, payment ( which- was to be made by the sale of land coi tiguous to those lines. He proceeded to as that he was bound to have concluded thi the members for the Northern and Southei

hon. member's views. He had been twitted with having changed lua views on this question, but he (Mr. Reid) had not done so, but Mr. Bastings had. He intended to show, and would show still further before he was done, that such was the case. He found, on reference to the Votes and Proceedings, that the Secretary for Lands and Works had moved " that the Dunedin and Moeraki line should be submitted to public tender, to be paid out of the proceeds of 560,000 acres of land contiguous to the line to be reserved from sale." Also the Riverton and Orepuki Railway was to be similarly provided for. Whit he wanted to know, and what the Council and the country was entitled to know, was whether the hon. member had altered his opinions on the point before the contracts were made which bound the province to this large sura of money. If he had so altered them, he was worthy of the severest reprobation of the Council for not having, as an honest representative, come down to the Council and said, " I cannot agree to these contracts until I see by what means it is to be paid." He had committed the Government to that expenditure, and they could not resile from it. He was not very sure that it would have been altogether wise to have acted differently. The whole question of the sale of land was mixed up with the question of providing means of communication for those settled on the land. After making further allusions to the point, the speaker dwelt upon the explanation made at a previous sitting, in reference to the sale of land, that had been reserved at Tapanui, an explanation which was to his mind eminently unsatisfactory. That a Government should have existed, the members of which, because of some trifling differences of opinion, allowed the interests of the country to suffer, was extremely unsatisfactory, and any member of the Government guilty of such conduct did not deserve the sympathy of the Council. Sooner than have been a party to it, he should have retired from his position, and thrown the responsibility of it upon the Superintendent. When the matter passed into the Goldfields Department, with instructions to a Warden to make the purchase, it was to his miud the duty of the head of that department to have seen it completed. After quoting largely from, and commenting upon, a speech made by Mr. Bastings at Tuapeka, he went on to say, there was another gentleman who had been very expert in following up these changes of opinion. His gyrations from side to side had been most remarkable. He (Mr. Reid) had enjoyed his confidence, and lost it repeatedly, and he had little doubt but that if they were both spared the time would come when he might again enjoy that confidence. (Laughter.) • That gentleman was in the habit of making eloquent speeches, the Masonic Hall being selected by him for that purpose. In one of these ■speeches he had said something not very favourable to the member for Blueskin, Mr. Green, who was then a colleague of his. His statements were that Mr. Green was no doubt, an excellent farmer, but he was not the man to control the public works of the province. According to that ruling a farmer was a man only fitted to vegetate in the country to manage his farm, but he was not be regarded as a person fit to take part in the government oi the province — at all events, to control its public works. The next gentleman he would allude to was the member for Tuapeka, Mr. J. C. Brown. His (Mr. Fish's) comments on that point were very explicit. (Laughter.) His words were these : " Now, if there was one man more objectionable than another in the proposed Executive, it was Mr. Brown." The reasons h< gave were these : That on the very morning i when the Executive was formed he (Mr i Brown) was engaged with the other side l ticking off the names of members upon whos< , support they could rely, and on coming tc , his own name Mr. Brown remarked that thej , could rely upon him. The speaker quoted a > some length from the speech in support oi r these statements. i Mr. BROWN rose to a point of order. H< ; did not think that it was right to refer t< 3 anything said outside that House in a debati > of 'this kind. (Laughter.) The SPEAKER ruled that great latitud • was allowable in debates of this kind, anc l that Mr. Reid was not out of order. Mr. REID proceeded : The member fo: I Invercargill was the next object of Mr. Fish' i attack. The complaint made against hin was that he was by far too much of a demo s crat. Now, as he (Mr. Reid) understood ; democracy was the system of government a ; which, as a colony, they were aiming. I > would be sufficient for him to say that th $ Government, as constituted, was quite mdii : ferent as to the result of this motion. Thei - desire was to consolidate parties in th 1 Council, in order that effect might be given t ; a sound policy, and such a one as had bee: 3 advocated by himself for many years. H 3 could say that he was there to give effect t 3 that policy, and nothing else. If it wa t owing to personal considerations that thi f vote was brought forward, he for one woul .. be quite satisfied to give way to those wh 1 would be more satisfactory to the Counci s He had not altered his views in regard to an i matter of vital importance. The vie^\ s enunciated by the mover of the motion wei - Utopian, and could only be given effect to : i they had to begin the whole matter of ac r ministration again ; if they had no liability I or engagements to meet, or no provision t c make for existing interests on devoloped r< i sources. It could not otherwise be accon c plished, and no one knew that bett< 0 than the hon. gentleman himself. If 1 1 believed anything to the contrary, he wa n quite unfit for the position his resolutioi c if carried, would place him in, and, if he di it know it, he was equally unfit for it. He thougl 3, it unnecessary to take up their time furthe 0 They would not regret the carrying of th s, motion on their own afcount, but they woul »r regret it, because they conceived such an issi n would be prejudicial to the interests of tl >f province. They thought it would have tl is effect of reproducing party strife. He w£ >r bound to assume that in acting together the s. were animated by the best intention : still 1 :e could not conceal from himself that, as a con te bination, it was in many respects incongruou y If, as a Council, they were to begin again I y be cut up into divisions and factions aboi y mere little details, it would be far better f< c the Government even if it had a majority, vi ie less it was a majority of some consequence, 1 n leave to the hon. member the mover the tas of constituting an Executive, one that woul tt give better satisfaction than they had don it The retention to them of their seats was in mother of ou.t> secondary* consideration. If tl s. Hon. gentlemen commanded even a lar^ d minority, they would for themselves prefer >f retire. He hoped every member would recoi I, his vote, and he could assure them the issi is would be received by them with satisfactio ie whatever it might be. Ie Mr. DE LATOUR, in announcing that 1 is intended to support the motion, said that 1 n did not think that it was a fair course ie pursue for members to have the statemen .d they had made some years previously rak< id up against them on an occasion like this. F> sy his own part he was afraid to make any stat id ment with a prospect of that kind before hii bo It had been stated by the last speaker that tl ;- land sold in large blocks had been situati a some 1,200 ft. high, and was only fit for pa ly toral purposes. In his own district l,0( 10 acres of the finest agricultural land in tl bo country had been sold to a leading politicii m for 10s. per acre. :s, Mr. CLARK also announced his intenti* 01 of supporting the motion. a, On the House resuming at 1 o'clock, je Mr. FISH continued the debate, by sayii ct that it had been said by the hon. member f sd the Taieri (Mr. Reid) that nothing had be ie so far urged which he would feel called upi ie to answer ; but he would now endeavour of show why he should not continue to hold 1 l- present position. He objected to the coi ty position of the Government, and also to tin at land policy, and to the indefinite manner m which they had proclaimed their viev

allude to the fact of the hon. member for Dunedin (Mr. Turnbull), and the hon. member for Oamaru county (Dr. Webster), being members of it. He considered that there were such serious objections to these hon. members that on that ground alone the House would be justified in refusing to give any confidence to the present Government. The hon. member, Mr. Turnbull, had stated at the opening of the session that ho resigned his position in consequence of his not having time to attend to the duties of his office owing to the demands made upon him by his own private affairs. But it might be said that the office which he now held would not make such large demands upon his time ; but be this as» it may, it was a fact that the present head of the Government would have to be absent from the province for at least three months out of the year attending to his Parliamentary duties at Wellington, during which time the hon. member, Mr. Turnbull, would have to attend not only to his own duties, but also to those of his colleague while he was absent. If the hon. member could not devote sufficient time to the duties of his office previous to the opening of the present session, why then was he on. the Government benches at present ? A fortnight had now elapsed since the session commenced, and so far there had not been laid on the table of the House a balance-sheet. The reasons given by the hon. member why this had not been done were absurd. He (Mr. Fish) would say that it was the result of the hon. member having neglected the duties of his office during the recess, that a balance-sheet had not been laid before the House. As a proof of the way in which the Treasurer had managed affairs during the recess, he might refer to the wellknown state in which the railway accounts are at present. It was notorious that the books of the Railway Department were in a most deplorable state. There were accounts in connection with that department which ought to appear in the Treasurer's balance-sheet, but which will have no place there. If the officers of this department had not done their duty, then he had no hesitation in saying that it was the duty of the hon. member (Mr. Turnbull) to see that the matter was put right. It had been alleged that members on bis side of the House were hankering for a place, but he entirely and indignantly repudiated such an insinuation. He would challenge the hon. member lately at the head of the Government to say whether he had ever once expressed any desire to occupy a seat in his Government. The hon. member for Oamaru county, in saying that no person should occupy a position on the Government benches who was not in an influential position, had greatly surprised him. But he would tell that hon. member that the people were not to be ruled by sheep and money-bags. He had referred to the want of capacity on the part of two gentlemen who occupy seats on th. Government benches. It was nonsense for the hon. member (Mr. Turnbull) to say that he was not responsible for the misdoings of the Executive. He would say that he had a right to be implicatedj to a-oertam extent, in what they had done in the past. He would refer to one fact alone, as showing had taken place. A tender had been received for one of the railways in Southland £2,500 below the one actually accepted. This tender was sent, in the first place, by telegram, and arrived in sufficient time for the Executive to have considered it. The tender was afterwards posted in Invercargil on Friday, but at an adjourned meeting of the Executive on the Monday following it had not turned up, and the Executive accepted the next lowest tender, which was £2,500 above the lowest tender. It was the bounden duty of the Government to have inquired into the circumstances of this case, and seen how it was that the province had to pay £2,500 extra. That such had not been clone was a proof that the hon. member then at the head of the Government had not time to devote to his office. In the case of the Waireka Valley railway contract, about £2,000 more than necessary is to be paid, because the Government refused to accept a tender which was not accompanied by a marked cheque, though, from the names, and also if they had taken the trouble to inqiu're at the bank, they might have known that it was all right. He then explained the reasons which would lead him to vote against the Government on account of their land, policy. He also doubted the sincerity of the statements made by the hon. member now at the head of the Government in regard to deepening the harbour. He also thought that they should have heard something about immigration, but they had not done so. He did not consider that any person could satisfactorily represent the Gold-fields interest who had not some special knowledge of that important industry. The hon. member (Mr. Reid), if ejected from office, would, making a fair inference from his remarks, go on to the Opposition benches and o | commence party strife. (Oh !) He (Mr. IS Fish) denied that he was actuated by a desire i s for office ; and said that a gentleman, when d the Government were ousted, would be found o who would take the position as leader, and 1. fulfil the duties equally well with the hon. y member now occupying the position of Prors vincial Secretary. (Hear, hear.) ■ c Mr. STOUT said that one of the hon. if members who had attacked the Government, I- attacked the party with which he was for3g merly associated, and the whole action of that ;o party. Had they changed their opinions? a- The "hon. member did not say that they had, !- or that he had changed his own, and there3r fore the only inference was that the hon. Ie member was so much occupied in his position is of whip that he did not know the views of a, of his party. (Hear, hear ; and laughter.) d There were only two points on which the it Government had been attacked as a Goverur . ment ; but this strange reason had been adie duced why the Government should be asked id to resign : That the previous Government did ie something wrong, and that because the ie Government which the hon. member for Dunie edin (Mr. Fish) supported was totally un!S worthy of confidence, therefore the present iv Government was totally unworthy of confiie dence. (Mr. Reid : Hear, hear.) That was a - logic, certainly, with a vengeance. Then, he .8. supposed, the' hon. member (Mr. Fish) had to changed his opinion in regard to the question nt of harbour improvements, so that there should or be a sort of Holy Alliance between himself and n- the hon. member for Port Chalmers (Mr. to M'Dermid), who, he supposed, was to be the 3k leader of the next Government ; but it was d thought necessary to shroud the matter in obie . scurity so that it should not affect the vote, a (Hear, hear.) Then, why did not the hon le members who -were opposed, to tile Q-overu-r e ment in regard to their land policy bring down to their own land policy? (Hear, hear.) He fd (Mr. Stout) then referred to the Votes and Prone ceedings of last session to show that Mr. Fish n supported the setting aside of 500,000 acres ' of land, in terms of the 150 th section of the ie Waste Lands Act, for two lines of railway, ie Why, the Provincial Secretary had never made to such a proposition as to sell half a million ts acres of land. But the strangest part of the sd attack on the Government was that by the or hon. member who moved the vote of want oJ ie- confidence, his objection to the preseni n. Executive being, not the policy of the ExecU' he tive, but, wonder of wonders, his objectioi ed was that in an address sanctioned by himseH is- he found some things which he considered 30 improper ; and, because the present Executive he had not agreed to his own composition, thej in were to be turned from office. And then hi! views on the land question were so hazy thai an it would be as difficult to get hold of them a! it was for Hamlet to get hold of the rat (Laughter.) He supposed he must not ad ng dress the Gold-fields members, or he would bi "or accused by one gentleman at least of attempting en to dictate to yonng members ; but those agri on cultural members who had bo consistent^ to voted, not for persons, but for principles, and iis who were now prepared to go with the Op m- position, he said he would warn those member! sir that they were pledging themselves not onl} in to no leader, but to no principles. No mem rs. ber of the present Executive would throv _' _™n»iL_hia~iiolleafl'ue on tiersonal erounds : anc

ie [(Mr. Stout) would not be found having a leat on the Treasury benches. (Applause.) Mr. M'KENZIE said that he had a duty ;o perform, independent altogether of anj personal feJing he might entertain on tin subject. The member for Caversham had singled him out as being inconsistent ; but he would defy anyone in that Council to say ihat he had ever been inconsistent since hit glection. If the party desert their side, that was no reason why he should follow them blind-folded, not knowing with any certainty whether they were prepared to carry out their policy or not. How was he to know that they were insincere in their professions ? When he first entered the Council they had had a Government which was called the Clodocratic Government. When that Government fell to the ground, he need not remind them how Mr. Reid had shone in the transaction which led to that Government being unseated. Then they had had what was called a Progressive Government, with their present Provincial Treasurer a member of that Government. Another Government took office which had been called tho Eainbow Government. As regar ■ s the present Government, it could not be called a Rainbow Government, as it wanted the true colours. It had been called a Round Robin Government, and that was in his opinion the most appropriate name it could get. It was composed of gentlemen who had held office in various Governments. Mr. Reid had told us that it was his intention to get the price of certain lands raised to £2 per acre. He was opposed to such a course. The principle of setting aside blocks of land as being land of special value was one to which he was greatly opposed. That principle, if carried out, would in his opinion give the Government a handle no Government should have. It would be an easy matter for members of the Executive to go to the country and reserve certain lands so as to accommodate their friends. During last session he presented a petition from the inhabitants of Shag Valley that certain lands should be reserved. They were withdrawn from sale, and within seven days afterwards the land was sold to the agent of a capitalist. He might be told that it was the Waste Land Board that sold the land, but it is on record that the Board refused to sell the land until the Government gave its consent. A similar arrangement might easily be made if the proposed system were given effect to. Mr. M'GLASHAN followed inasimilar strain. Alluding to the 150 th clause of the Land Act he said it must not be forgotten that Mr. Reid delegated his powers to parties he left behind him, and it was in consequence of that delegation that the 50,000-acre block was sacrificed. If power were given to Mr. Reid to sell land at 10s. per acre, something of that kind might again occur. If large blocks of land were to be sold, he had no doubt but that the gentlemen holding licenses over these lands would be prepared to purchase. The provision for advertising them for one month was not sufficient, and would be no protection against such a contingency. He regretted to appear in opposition to the members of the present Government. Alluding specially to Dr. Webster, he stated that that gentleman had destroyed his prospects in the Government, having stated that he had no time to attend to the duties of his office. They saw that such was the case in the fact that the balance-sheet had not yet been brought down. He (Mr. M'Glashan) also objected to Mr. Reid on the ground that, during his absence in Wellington, his powers were delegated to another, and that was exposing them to a repetition of the blunders that had been already committed. Mr. M'DERMID said that he objected to the Government on the ground that Mr. Turnbull was a member of it. He (Mr. Turnbull) had a special faculty for turning out Governments. He was in the habit of turning out two or three Governments every session. He turned him (Mr. M'Dermid) out last session — (laughter) — and this session he turned out another Government. He had no doubt at all that if the Government had met the Council in the way it should have done all this annoyance would have been saved, and the business well advanced by this time. Virtually speaking, he turned out the membei for Tuapeka and took in the member for the the Taieri. It might be that there were good and valid reasons for such a change, but if so the Council should have been told in whai Mr. Basnlngs's fault consisted. T?nf- nn suoli information had been given. Now, if there really was any fault, it should certainly hay( been made known to them. He had othei reasons for supporting the motion. Mr. Reic would proceed to Wellington in a few weeks along with his chief, and while there they hac no guarantee but that a row similar to th< one they had two years ago would be repeated and the whole province be once more throwi into confusion. Mr. KINROSS spoke at some length during which he announced his intention o voting against the motion. The reasons hi advanced referred chiefly to the fact that 1! months ago, when a wholesale alienation o the lands of Southland was going on, tin Southland members took action to put a sto] to it. In doing so they were opposed by thi mover of the motion. Mr. HENDERSON announced his deter mination of following a similar course. H had listened to the objections advanced agains the Government, and these he described a shallow and unfounded. He had had th honour of occupying a seat in that Counci for the past eight years. During that tim various changes had taken place, but thes had always been on some principle, but the pro posed change was the most unworthy attemp that had been made. It was nothing els that a question of who should occupy th benches, and for that reason he would vot against the motion. Mr. SUMPTER thought it right to giv expression to his views on the matter. H would oppose the Government because ther were now seated on the benches two member who had, since the close of the financial yea] committed the province to the expenditure c £140,000. Another reason why he could nc support the present Government was besaus the hon. member who occupies the position c Treasurer has stated that he has not time I attend to the duties of Mb office. As far a his opinion and vote went, the presen Government should leave the benches. H regretted that so many changes of Goven nient should take place, but he would have t vote in favour of the motion now before ti House. Mr. LUMSDEN did not think there w£ much difference between the policy of tl: Opposition and that of the Government on tl great q ixestion. o£ tlie cla-y, namely, the 13.12 question. No doubt the great objection i the present Government made by the mov< of the motion now before the House was tl intervention of sections of land on deferre payment with land open for sale for dire< payment. The hon. member for Dunedin (M Fish) said it was wrong to sell the lan for the purpose of enriching private estate but he held that the enriching of privai estates was benefiting the country generall; A person holding a deferred-payment bloc would, under the plan proposed, have the oj portunity of adding 200 or 300 acn to his farm. When he left his distri he did not consider that any such conte; would arise, as the Government had bee carrying out the land policy during the reces and he did not come to the Council with tl view of offering any opposition to them. 1 the session in May last, the party with whic he had acted had agreed to the principle of coalition Government, and the two membe then suggested were now on the Governmei benches. He should not regret if the G vernment were defeated, but he would regr. that the party with whom he had been actir should have been so blindfolded. Mr. M'KELLAR said that he concurred : the idea that a coalition Government shoul be formed. When the hon. member for tl Taieri announced that he had formed a Gn vernment, he was pleased to fiad that three ( its members had been selected from tl Liberal party. It seemed to him a stran| thincrtafir.fi the »-J t.:u,.~01 iWfcv nr

standing that three of its own members were jn the Government benches. He was of opinion that the debate was altogether a lersonal one. They were told that the Goldfie'ds interest had never been so well attended to as during the time when the hon. member for the Gold-fields had the administration of i hat department. But he would ask, What were the works which he had actually done ? He would like some information from the hon. member for Ttapeka as to what had been done in the way of the extension of the Tuapeka railway. He would like to know whether that hon. member had done anything towards initiating that work. He would also like some further information about the doings of a Teviot Committee, and also in regard to the Cromwell commonages. He mentioned these things as showing that the hon. member, Mr. Bastings, was not entitled to assume the paternal position towards the gold-fields which he had done. He agreed with the opinion expressed by the member for Mount Ida that any member of the House was able to fiE the office of Gold-fields Secretary. He would conclude by observing that for many reasons he was of opinion that the office of Gold-fields Secretary should be amalgamated with that of the Secretary for Public Works. Mr. TURNBULL said that when he entered the Council Chamber that evening he felt as though he were about to find himself in the position of Jonah, inasmuch as he expected to be in danger of being swallowed by a Fish. (Laughter.) He was thankful, however, to say that he was not yet in such an awkward position. (Hear, hear.) He had felt unwilling to be dragged into this discussion, and had it not been for the indiscretion of his late colleague's Man Friday (Mr. Fish), and for the hon. member for Port Chalmers (another of his late colleagues), and for an lion, member for somewhere else, he would have held his tongue ; but for the insinuations which had been thrown out that he had treated the late Secretaiy of Works bndly, lie would not have addressed the House. He had to thank that hon. member for the temperate mamier in which he had introduced the motion, and had those who followed him acted in the same way he would have been spared making the remarks lie was now about to make. He wished to refer to the Tapanui sections, but in justice to himself he thought lie ought also to refer to other matters. On reading the report in a newspaper, on the day after the reflections made by the hon. member for Tuapeka, he sent a note to the Undersecretary, asking him to send him a memo., which was follows :—: — Ec purcbase of sections 12, 13, and 16, block "VII. Glenkenicb. On the 27th February the Government, finding that the sections could not be reserved froui sale, upon the recommendation of the Secretary for Gold-fields agreed to purchase them ; and, on the 2Sth, a telegram was sent by the Secretary to Wwden Carew, to the following effect :— %< Buy in sections 12, 13, and 16, block VII., Glenkenicb. When purchased, show this telegram to auctioneer." On the 3rd March Warden Carew reported having made the purchase, and on the 6th a voucher for the amount to be paid was prepared. Nothing was said to Mr. Carew about paying a deposit ; neither does he mention it in his letter. As there were, however, no funds available, and a special order could not then be given, the matter was allowed to stand over, with the Knowledge of the Secretary for Gold-fields, until too late, Captain Mackenzie having in the interval, by inspection of the books in the Lawrence office, discovered that no deposit had been made, and lodged an application for the land. A. Willis. May 13, 1874. Now he asked the hon. member for the City if he (Mr. Turnbull) was specially to blame for this? (Mr. Fish: Certainly.) He did not believe that any other menber of the Council would make the same assertion. He showed this memorandum to his late colleague, and asked him in fairness to mention it. That hon. member did not do so, and he thought he should do so himself. In regard to the reasons that led to the dissolution of : the late Government, he might state, as he had already stated, that he had not the time to devote to the arduous duties connected i with the position of head of the Government . and Provincial Treasurer ; but there were ; other reasons. He differed with his late col- > league in regard to administration entirely, L and he also demurred to the extent that his late collea ue went in over-riding the votes of • the Council. He did not wish to say anys thing in an unfair spirit, and he would only [ mention one instance, and the particulars even i of that the Council would know in a daj b or two. The instance ho alluded to was l this • He protested against the transfei s of the sum of £1,200 from the Teviol 3 to the road from Tuapeka to Lawrence. He f had himself been personally over the road I and believed that the transfer was improper , It was simply taking away money from a roac 1 that wanted it badly, and giving it to a roac 3 which was not only becoming rapidly one o: , the best in the province, but would also hay( 1 a railway near it. (Hear, hear.) At tin next Executive meeting he proposed that th< , matter should be delayed. That was agreec f to, and when the question was brought uj c again he made up his mind to dissent iron 2 the transfer. He thought it was improper f and he thought so sti u - His late colleague c however, urged that ifc was no use resisting it £> inasmuch as the mon e y w & s spent, or tha c they were liable for it. About that time hi (Mr. Turnbul^decided to retire from the Go •- vernment. Shortly afterwards he received ai c intimation from the Superintendent with re t gard to this £1,200, to the effect that hi iS Honor's authority for the transfer and pay c nient of the money was for some time with il held, and that it was only after the matte: 8 had been subjected to repeated discussions ii c the Executive that he (his Honor) had givei •- his authority, on the principle that it was m it good crying' over spilt milk. He (Mr. Turn c bull) had intimated to the Superintendent :e before this took place, that, as he considerei ;e his Honor had taken the side of the Secretar for Works against him in the Executive, h c (Mr. Turnbull) should retire. However, tha c difficulty was got over by a little persuasioi c among themselves, and he still remained witl •s the Executive. But that was not the wors p, part of the affair, for in the list of expend] )f ture the Council would find that there was a; >t additional liability to meet, in respect of thi ie very road, of £3,500. Last year £5,000 hai )f been voted j £6,400 had been spent ; and noi ,o there was a liability of £3,soo— making is total of £10,000, where £5,000 only was voted tt That was another motion to which he had ot c jected, and he considered that he was bouni l- to refuse to sanction this unauthorised expendi o ture. There were numerous other items of ie similar nature, and he had given instruction to the officer of the Treasury Department t is scrutinise every voucher, and, if he consideia le there was the slightest reason to think th ie money had been illegally spent, not to presen d it to him for signature. He kad sent bae :o vouchers to the Under-Secretary, with instruc n- tions to furnish him with the date of th ie authorisation of the works. It had been san d by an hon. member (Mr. M'Dermid) tha jt he (Mr. Turnbull) was really the frame r. of the present Government. That wa id totally untrue. The Superintendent neve s, consulted him. Certainly he might b fee entitled to a certain amount of blame through v. not being able to devote sufficient time to th ;k office he undertook, but he had never authoi d- ised any proceeding whidi could not stan es the full light of that Council. (Hear, hear, ct He was not going to say that his late co 3t league could not be trusted, but he certainl ;n wanted holding in in the matter of speudin is, money. He had previously intimated, hoy. Ie ever, that he declined to take any position i Lt any Government of which Dr. Webster was ;h member, and that was the reason why, so fa a as he knew, the hon. member was not official! rs usked to take a part in that Government. H at (Mr. Turnbull) hoped that he had not sai o- anything personally offensive. He had mere! et acted in the way in which he had felt he wa ig bound to do on behalf of the interests he ha undertaken to preserve, and he felt certai in that no member of the Council would ai Id in throwing aside the votes of the Counci ie If any member did do such a thing, he did n< o- believe that he would be supported forfii of minutes. As long as the Council voted mone; ie they were bound to spend it as voted, and i »c transfer should be made from one district 1 p- another, unless by the authority of a-ft

what had been stated that the present motion V had not been brought forward on a question ■ of policy. It was a question simply of who should be in, and who should be out. (Hear, hear.) In fact he believed that, if the vote of want of confidence had not been brought up jH in the way that it had, it would have been !» brought up in some other way, and, suppos- « ing the Government retained their seats, he did not think it would bo any use attempt- I ing to carry on the Government of the j country with a narrow majority. .Rather I than do so, he thought it would be J almost best to retire, and give place M to those who could carry on the busi- A ness. In his opinion it would simply be H a waste of timo to carry on with only t> narrow majority, because they would ver^ probably have another vote of want of con- jH fidence on some other question in a few days. No doubt the hon. member for Dunedin (Mr ;fl Fish) would take np such a question vigor jfl ously. Indeed he had been given to under-^B stand that the hon. member was very much disgusted that he was not a member of the Government during the recess. Now he (Mr. V Turnbull) was not aware of that feeling on fl the part of the hon. member. Mr. FISH stated that the hon. member \va i . V wholly unwarranted in making the remarks he had made in the course of this debate. M Jdr. TURNBULL was really surprised ay H the statement of the hon. member, because lit fl had a very vivid recollection of the hon. mem- X ber remarking to him in a rather suggestive 1 manner that the duties of Treasurer were not IB very difficult to carry out during the recess- Jl He (Mr. Turnbull) was sorry he did no accej)t the suggestion in a proper light, be 9 cause they might have found a corner for him fl In conclusion the speaker said that, whatevei V Government was on those benches, the pro- m per course must be adopted in carrying ou fl the votes of the Council, and as regarded hi v late* oollea^ixe he might say that the onl_ W difficulty he had was that he could not hoki M him in. He spent rotes without lega'H authority, and made appointments the V Executive never heard of. (Applause and ■ disapprobation.) ■ Mr. TULMIE expressed his regret that 1 this squabble, for, in reality, he could call 1 it nothing more, should have taken place, i The two gentlemen between whom this jj squabble had arisen were his late colleagues, I and, to some extent, he wa3 responsible for 1 bringing them together. He was placed iv 1 this doubtful position, that he really did "1 not know how to vote. He would wait until Mr. Bastings replied before he made up his mind on that point. If the Treasurer's statement just made relative to the vote on the road to Lawrence was not satisfactorily answered, he would vote for the Government. While in office he had put his finger upon that item of expenditure. The amount was £6,000 ; but it was afterwards reduced to a smaller sum. The present crisis could not be regarded as a vote of want of confidence : it was simply a personal squabble ; and he trusted that when it was decided, either one way or another, they would hear ho more about it, but that the business would be proceeded with. Mr. DANIEL next addressed the Council, during which he stated that, while he had intended to vote for the motion, after the ex- ) planations made by the Treasurer he had changed his mind and would vote for the . Government . Dr. WEBSTER said that he had been twitted with neglect of duty. He denied that such was the case. He had other duties to perform besides those of the office. In company with the Provincial Engineer, he had gone through the country inspecting blocks of country for the deferred-payment system. He had a knowledge of the lands of the pro- j vince to which few gentlemen could laj 7 claim, jj He had had nothing to do with the sale of ] the land at Shag Valley to the capitalists, as " had been alleged by the member for Wai- , hemo. He would not say that he was not proud of occupying the position he did in the Government. Mr. HAGGITT would vote in favour of „ : the Government, because he did not see how so good a one could be formed from the other , - side of the House. He thought it a misfor- I i tune that such repeated attempts should be j ' made at ousting Governments that not only i possessed the confidence of the country, but • -also- of, the Provincial Council. The compoi sition of the, present Government excluded for ; the future all notions about the existence of , parties in the House. At present, every posi- . tion on the Government benches to which pay I was attached was filled by gentlemen whd I had heretofore held totally opposite views, f While Mr. Stout and Mr. Reid were on the » Opposition side of the House they could at 3 any time, if they had said the word, have ob3 tamed such a following as would have made ifc 1 extremely difficult for the Government to > carry on the work of the province. He conl sidered the present Opposition a most factious •, one, and one for which there was no reason , whatever. He regretted that disputes which ■ ;, had taken place in the Executive Council t should be made public, and thought good c taste alone should have prevented such being - done. Though he differed on many questions i from the hon. member now at the head of the - Gorernment, yet he endorsed the opinion exs pressed by the hon. member (Dr. Webster) - that no more fitting person could be obtained - to hold that position. He would therefore r vote against the motion. n The Hon. Dr. MENZrES contended that a such public works as had been lately carried 0 on in this province could only be done by the - sale of blocks of land, or else they would have :, to get a loan from the General Government. 1 He could not say a loan would not be oby tamed, but he considered that it was very une likely. The sale of alternate sections ,t between the blocks set apart for deferred pay- , ti ments, at £2 an acre, was also objected to. He ! h (Dr. Menzies) did not think that a debate oni it the pi'opriety of that step would be shirked by' i- the Government, or that it would accept an n adverse decision on the point as a vote of want is of confidence. In his opinion the objection d to the land policy was merely made the stalkiv ing-horse for an assault on the Government a benches. This motion would never have been I. moved if the land policy alone had been at »- fanlt. d Mr. IRELAND said that his vote would i- depend upon the reply made by Mr. Bastings, a If he succeeded in refuting the charges of malis versation, then he would Tote for the motion 0 if not, he would vote against it. He maind tamed, however, that the Treasurer had acted c wrongly in not resigning when the alleged acts it of malversation were first discovered. k Mr. BASTING-S replied. He denied that ;- he had voted against the proposal to sell the c lands in Southland. They had found recently d instead of lands bought up by small settlers, it they were bought up in large blocks. He ir thought we should endeavour to retain all the is lands we possibly could beyond that requirec :r for bona fide settlement, and, as the runs fall ie in, endeavour to made a load through the li valleys, many of which there are in the proe vince, and lay out farms of from one to two* > thousand acres, partly pastoral and partljl d agricultural. That would have proyidedl .) sufficient funds to carry on the ordinary! 1- public works of the province. He' y next replied to insinuations brought g against him by the member from Crom^ r- well regarding the railway. In refern ence to the charges brought against him : a first, with regard to the expenditure on the tr Tuapeka Road, a metal contract, amountin t iy to £2,800, had been let. In making om .o estimates for that road this contract wal d overlooked, and the consequence was tha;si [y this £2,800 was afterwards found to be ' is deficiency. The contract was let by the id Executive, and he had the responsibility in resting on his shoulders. He also asserted id that the Treasurer had neglected his duty. 1 He had not attended to the -affairs of the >t province more than six hours per week. re When anything of importance had to be dope,, y, he (Mr. Bastings) had to go like a clerk over 10 to his (Mr. Turnbun"s) office, and, on more to occasions than one, he was told, "Oh, you, lU. must just wait until an ordinary meeting ofj

VA vesting- of the sub-committee entrusted Kith the management of the Subscription Ball, which is to take place in the Athenroum lull on Monday next, was held in the AthenBum on Monday evening last. The arrange■bente are now completed, and a quadrille Kind has been engaged for the occasion. Khere is every probability of the ball being a Kreat success. Invitations have been r>uuiorHtdy circulated throughout the district, and ■few sent to Tokomartifd and other places. ■ considerable number of persons have ■ready dignified their intention of being Krone ; and we have no doubt the ball will Bove a credit to the people of Lawrence, Hnd a. fitting celebration Of Her Majesty's ■ The. " Leader " of the April 18th says :— V A secretary that can manage to secure a Eividend of 66 per cent, for two successive Bears is one that deserves well of his employers. This is what Sir Samuel Bignold, nic Secretary of the -Norwich Fire Insurance E/ompany, has done (a company, by the way Btat does a large amount of business in this ■felony,) and the occasion of the declaration Bf the second dividend referred to was taken ■drantiage oi by the shareholders in January Bst for the purpose of presenting that genBeman with a portrait of himself, painted By an eminent artist. Sir Samuel Bignold Mas been long identified with the institution, (which has been a great success, and his serrvices have been highly appreciated by the proprietors." , • A NOTICE appears, in the " Provincial Jovernment Gazette " that Mr. M. Hay will f offer for sale by public auction, at the Land Office, Lawrence, on Monday, 7th July next, lections 2 to 12, inclusive, of block VI., G-len-genich district, comprising about 850 acres, (b the- upset price of £1 per acre. ' Thb Provincial Government intend shortly to take steps to establish a Meteorological Observatory at Clyde. Thb statutory meeting of Justices of Peace, which should have been held at the Courthouse yesterday, for the purpose of choosing a Chairman and making out the roll, lapsed, there not being three justices present. Mr. Carew and Dr. Stewart were the only J.PJs in attendance. The first half-yearly meeting of the National Insurance Company was held in Farley's Hall, Dunedin, on Monday afternoon. Mr. J. W. M. Larnach occupied the chair. There was a large attendance of shareholders. yrhe Chairman in his introductory remarks «aid : — On the 15th of September, the directors commenced to allot the shares, and \finished on the 24th of October, after many long day and evening sittings. There were 370,939 shares applied for by over 4000 applicants. Otago applied for 169,855 ; Canterbury applied for 64,058 ; Auckland applied for 82,491 ; Wellington applied for 26,879 ; Nelson applied for 8821 ; Napier applied for 8770; West Coast applied for 7345 ; Taranaki applied for 1825 ; Marlborough applied for 895 — making a total of 370,939 applied for; and 99,143 were allotted. It was impossible to give anything like satisfaction among so many applicants. The Company started with 3679 shareholders in New Zealand— namely, Otago, 1627 : Canterbury, 652 ; Wellington, 466 ; Auckland, 624 ; Nelson, 86 ; Hawkes Bay, 99 ; West Coast, 65 ; Taranaki, 47 ; Marlborough, 33— making a total of 3679. Since the 316t of March, the premiums for one month and a half amounted to £6102, re-insurance and commission, £2753. It would be seen that the losses had been but trifling. The Chairman paid a high compliment to the General Manager, Mr. Jack, and to the agency management generally. The balance-sfieefc showed an income, during the sixth months, of £26,056 19s. 5d.; and an expenditure, including losses and preliminary expenses, of £8,820 17s. 9c1., leaving a credit balance of £17,236 Is. Bd. A dividend of 10 per cent, was declared. The Provincial Government have decided to invite H.M.S. Challenger to visit Port Chalmers after the work of the expedition has been completed at Wellington.

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