Thursday, June 9.

Tuapeka Times, Volume III, Issue 123, 16 June 1870, Page 6

Thursday, June 9.

MESSAGE FEO-H THE SUPERINTENDENT.

' The SPEAKER reported Message No. 15, faoin His Honour the Superintendent, sending down the Supplementary Estimates, and asking the assent of the Council thereto. The House went into

COAIMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

His Honour's Message No. 7 was taken into consideration.

Mr. REID pointed out that if money could be borrowed for the construction of the Southern Trunk Railway at 5 per cent., the difference between that and the guarantee of 8 per cent, would, in nineteen years, pay for the line. If the guarantee of 8 per cent, were given, the province would eventually have to purchase it at a very long price. The water supply on the goldfields might be judiciously arranged in the same way. Should there be any difference of opinion on tbe various items, he trusted that hon. members would rather endeavour to throw out the items objected to, than imperil the entire loan. He referred briefly to the other items of the Message, and left the matter in the hands ■of the Committee; As to the security •he might mention that it was proposed to set aside three millions of acres of land. But 822,200 acres of the choice lands of the province had been reserved as not being available to be set aside as security for the loan. These lands would not be any further tied up than they were at present, nor was it likely that more would be required for the next 16 or 20 years. He proposed in reply to the Message the following resolutions : — " Ist. That this Council agrees with the recommendations contained in His Honour's Message, No. 7, and respectfully requests that he will take the necessary steps to give effect thereunto. 2nd. That, in the opinion of this Council, provision" should be made in the Act authorising the loan, to the effect that whenever L 25,000, or one twentysixth part of the loan, shall be extinguished by payments, then that 115,385 acres, or one twenty-sixth part of the land upon which the loan shall be secured, or any quantity not exceeding that extent of acreage, may, on the application of the Superintendent, be released from the charge upon the same; and that upon any such land being so released, the same shall become available for sale' and purchase under the provisions of the land laws

of the province of Otago for the then time being." Capt. M'KENZIE complained that the important question of this loan should have been left to so late a period of the session.

Mr. GILLIES said although this loan were obtained, the interest and sinking fund would be no more burden on pastoral leases than under the present loans. Land was after all the best security, and was looked on as being so in the home market. By placing the loan on the footing that they absolutely pledged part of their territory for repayment of the loan, he thought many of the objections which might be brought against it in the Assembly would be done away with. Mr. THOMSON referred to the fact of the gentleman at the head of the Government having changed his mind with regard to who should carry ont the work of a railway. When not a member of the Government, Mr. Reid believed the best way to get the work done would be by a company — now he thinks it should be a Government work. If the present Government were going to remain in office for several years to come, the matter would be different ; but another Government might not entertain the same opinions as those which the present Government held, and then between the two the railway might go to the wall. The Government had endeavoured to show that it was not a dangerous thing to mortgage the pastoral rents. He (Mr. Thomson) however, thought it would be a dangerous thing.

Mr GILLIES : No, I said that we were not proposing to mortgage the pastoral rents. They will flow into the general revenue the same as formerly.

Mr THOMSON thought it was a distinction without a difference. If they mortgaged the land, they mortgaged the rents. It had also been urged that the willingness of the Council to pledge the territory would be a good argument on which to take their case before the Assembly ; but he was not of that opinion, because, on a previous occasion, they were told that the lands of the colony belonged to the colony. Therefore the argument was no argument at all. Besides, if the lands were pledged they would not be acting fairly towards their former creditors ; they had already borrowed largely, and those who had lent them money had a prior claim. — (Hear, hear.) Again, if tli ey adopted the course which it was proposed to take, what security would they have to offer in connection with the construction of railways in others parts of the province. There was a proposal to re-unite with Southland, the interest on the debt of which province was about L 25,000 or L 30,000, and the interest on his loan and other matters would make a total amount of L 119,000. It had been urged, however, that the construction of a railway would have the effect of largely increasing our population, and that we should thereby have a greater taxing power ; but he did not believe that it would do so to anything like the extent that was auticipated by some hon. members. The population of Southland, for instance, was about 7000 or 8000, and there was a provincial debt of something like £400,000. It was very questionable whether by means of railway construction our population would be increased by i 7000 ; but supposing that it increased ! to that extent, that would not be sufficient to meet the additional interest ! that would be incurred in connection with the carrying out of the work. He should be willing to give for every LI security to tho extent of one acre, but he was not prepared to go the length proposed in the second resolution.

Mr. M'INDOE asked how could the Committeee reconcile the proposal to borrow the amount stated with the resolution which was tabled by the hon member Mr. Shepherd, that a loan should not be obtained on the pastoral rents of the Crown. He was willing to support the construction of a railway, because it would confer great benefits ; but they had to consider whether it would be cheaper to borrow money for the purpose of constructing the railway, or whether they should get it constructed on a terminable guarantee. Mr. SHEPHERD pointed out that the Government did not want to borrow money on the special security of the pastoral rents, but on the freehold of the land. The construction of the railway would improve trade, and attract population from other colonies, by which means L 60,000 or L 70,000 might possibly be saved in immigration expenses. He did not believe the General Government would permit them to borrow L 650,000, and by applying for such a sum they would merely defeat their own purpose. He should, at the proper time, propose that the sum be reduced to L 500,000.

Mr MILLAR said that since 1863, the railway question had cropped up every session ; but their railway ideas had died away the moment tbe session was ended. Such fitful efforts were of little use. He could not understand how any body of men who were acquainted with the money market of Europe could expect to get a loan at 5 per cent., when 4| per cent., with perfect security, could be obtained throughout England and the continent of Europe. Land was reckoned good security at home, but English capitalists did not regard land alone as firstclass security in any of the colonies. It

ought to be known that the L 10,000,000 borrowed by Victoria for the construction of railways was not borrowed upon the land revenue alone, but upon the entire consolidated revenue. — (Mr Reed :So will this be.) He granted that; but it was not so last year. MiMillar then spoke at a considerable length, in order to show the advantages wbich would have resulted to the provience, if the Grovermnent had accepted his offer with regard to the constJuction of the railway. It was useless to wait in order to see what improvements might be effected in railway construction ; and if they did so, Otago would be outstripped by other provinces in the race of improvement. It was unlikely that the Southern Railway, if formed, would return any direct profit to the revenue for some years, but the indirect profit derived from the value of land being enhanced would be very large. If the land were retained in hand for a reasonable time, they might reasonably expect its value to rise from LI to L 2, L 3, lA, and probably LlO an acre. It would be a monstrous mistake if the House were to entrust the expenditure of L 400,000 upon a railway to the G-overnment. If, however, the Council decided upon doing so, he would recommend the Government to instruct their home agent to send out a thoroughly good man to superintend the work, even if they had to pay him LSOOO a year. He believed the present proposal, however, to be a huge hoax upon the House and the country, and that the G-overnment had no more intention of going on with the railway than he had of flying to the moon. They had, no doubt, taken up the ideas of the Superintendent with the object of smothering them in the bud, and would take good care the proposal should not get through the General Assembly. They had further, in anticipation of it, by any chance, getting through the Assembly, provided that the interest should be 5 per cent., which would effectually prevent the loan being taken up on the Stock Exchange at home. Regarding it in this light, he should not support the motion.

Mr. HUTCHESON objected to the southern part of the province receiving L 552,000 of this loan. Railways would be required in the north as well as the south. Steam communication might be had to all parts of the province by means of Thomson's road engine at much less expense than making railways. There were to be 39 districts in the province, and if each district had 10 of these engines given to it, the snort of the iron horse would be heard throughout the length aud breadth, of the land. These engines did not require metalled roads, aud could be used, when not required for traffic, by the farmers in breaking up the land. Theu, when the country was opened up, not locked up as proposed, svould be the time to borrow money. Otago was the only province that had spent money freely, but he was glad to see the General Government was inclined to go in on a similar principle.

Captain M'KENZIE repudiated the charge brought against the southern members. He objected to borrowing money for railways, as he thought that, with the means at their disposal, it was quite possible for them to carry them out by private companies, at no expense to the province.

The first resolution was earned by 21 ayes against 5 noes. The second resolution was carried on the voices in the following amended form :—": — " That in the opinion of this Council provision should be made in the Act authorising the loan, to the effect that whenever L 25,000 of the loan shall be extinguished by payments, then that 115,385 acres of the land upon which the loan shall be secured, or any quantity not exceeding that extent of acreage, may, on the application of the Superintendent, be released from the chai'ge upon the same ; and so on from time to time, when aud so often as an amount equal to L 25,000 stall be exitixiguisliecL \yy payments, that 115,385 additional acres of the said land may be so released as aforesaid ; and that upon any such land being so released, the same shall become available for sale and purchase, under the provisions of the land laws of the Province of Otago for the time being."

IMMIGRATION AGENT.

Mr. REID was about to state the name of the proposed Immigration Agent for the approval of the Council, when Mr. FRASER suggested the propriety of strangers being ordered to withdraw.

The galleries were cleared accordingly. On the doors being opened the Council went into Committee of piy[From the " Daily Times " of Saturday, we leara that Mr. Grillies was the nominee of the G-overnment as Immigration Agent to proceed to Great Britain; and that nine other gentlemen were nominated. The " Times " very facetiously remarked on the numerous proposals as follows : — They were a very "FalstafFs ragged regiment " of political hangers on. Lawyers without practice, and one of them occupying even a worse position than that. Jacks of all trades, and Jacks of no trade, from the gentleman who makes his living no one knows how, and who does not mind " selling a friend a horse," to the man who gets along every body knows in what manner. During the debate, Mr. Ashcroffc moved as an amendment that no Immigration Agent be appointed

at present, the amendment being carried by the casting vote of the chairman.]