PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Thursday, December 27.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 879, 4 January 1854, Page 3

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Thursday, December 27.

The Peov. Secretary rose to call the &ttention of the Council to that part of the Superintendent's address, referring to the appropriation of a portion of the monies received from sales of land to assist Immigration, and to the Wardens of Hundredsj with a view to framing an address to the Governor on theso points. The Secretary referred to two despatches, received from the Civil Secretary referring to these points, and thought the Council would have no difficulty in agreeing to such an address,

LOAN BILL. The Prov. Secretary, in moving the second reading of the Debenture Bill, said that in doing so he was asking the Council to sanction the raising of a Loan by the Provincial Government, and he could not expect the Council would accede to such a proposition unless he could shew it rested on secure grounds. In order to do this he should establish two pro* > positions : Ist, that the money to be borrowed would be expended on essential and permanent improvements ; Sndly, that the security offered is good. "With regard to the first point he would apply a test in the shape of a question put by a capitalist, " Is the money you desire to borrow to be spent in improving your property, and in rendering it more productive ? Money is abundant just now, and I have every disposition to lend, but my decision must be guided by your answer." Such is the sort of question a shrewd man of business and capital would put to the borrower, and the reason of the old adage, i l he that goes a borrowing, goes a sorrowing-," is that the borrower too often proposes to spend the money on fruitless objects. He would shew, that in the present case the Government propose to spend the money on objects of an essential and permanent character; if they were essential but not permanent he should fail to establish his case. He would illustrate his meaning by. examples. If an important line of road which should be out of repair, should be put into a state of repair, such a work would be of an essential but not of a permanent character, the money would be ■ exhausted whereby posterity would be called on to reconstruct and repair the work when the profit hadpassed away. But it was necessary that works should not only be essential but permanent in their character, that they shbuld. be conducted on such a principle that a future popu= ■ lation which would have to -bear a portion of the burden, should also reap a portion of the 1 advantage. He would submit that a reference 1 to the Schedule of the Bill would sufficiently establish his first proposition, that the works proposed to be carried out by the money raised were, of an essential and permarient character. He now came to the second- point ; — Is the security good, — and here it would be necessary (

him to shew Ist, that the borrowing party wa s living within the boundß of his annual 'income, and 2ndly, that he was legally seized of, and really dealing with his own income. On the first point he need only refer to the Estimates which had received the approval of 'the combined calculations of the House. On the second point he would say a few, words. On refering tb Lord Grey's charter it would be. seen provision was made for the apportionment of the revenue, after .deducting ibr the Civil List and such sums as were appropriated by any permanent Ordinances. By the Act suspending the Charter, not only was provision made for resuscitating the old Legislatures of New Ulster and New Munster, but also for establishing Legislatures for such other Provinces as the Colony might hereafter be divided into. Tacked to the Ordinance establishing Provincial Councils, was a provision for the appropriation of the revenue, and a Civil List of £6000 for each Province. By the Constitution Act these Provincial Councils became void, because they were inconsistent with and repugnant to the Act, but the provis ons for appropriating the revenue remained in force, •because they were not inconsistent "with it. But suppose they were inoperative, what then'? Those of Lord Grey's charter would come into force, which were identical with them, But it will be said, why refer to obsolete Acts and Charters, what have they to do with us ? He would reply by referring to the instructions of Sir John Pakington, by which existing laws are continued until the New Constitution is established, those existing being the very ones he had quoted. It was to no purpose to object they were obsolete, because they were only so far repealed as they were repugnantto the Act and no further, and the financial arrangements made by the Governor were entirely consistent with the Constitutional Act. HisExcellencyhas taken as his guide the amount specified to be reserved as a civil list, namely£l6,ooo, and afuither sum of £5000 for Education, Debentures, and Savings Banks under the authority of permanent Acts. Up to the time that the General Assembly shall be called together, there could be no doubt the Provincial Council was fully entitled to deal with the revenue as apportioned by the Governor. But how will it he afterwards, when the over riding power of the General Legislature might upset the arrangements of the Provincial Councils ? It is evident the Civil List is fixed by law, and beyond that it was not possible for the General Assembly to appropriate any sums from the surplus revenue of the whole Colony, e*en for steam, which would not benefit the whole Colony alike. But admitting the existence of such works, he would pursue the subject further and weigh its practicability. Suppose the desire to appropriate the revenue -otherwise existed, what difficulties would be -met with. Would public opinion sanction a Nominee Upper House and an irresponsible Executive spending their revenue, and depriving the Provinces of the means of internal improvement ? From this day forward he was persuaded the public would never permit the voting away the public revenue of New Zealand, until they had another Upper House and a responsible General Government. But to satisfy the most fastidious doubts lie would suppose the Upper House to be constituted on a more popular basis, that the principle of responsible Government was established in the General Assembly, and that the revenue did not go on increasing; even under these sup positions half of the revenue would still be left to the Provinces, and under the financial ■ aiTangements of the present Estimates there would still be sufficient left to provide for the payment of the Interest of the Loan. He would therefore submit he had fully established j the propositions he had laid down, and would now move the second reading of the Bill. Mr. Ludlam supported the principle of the bill on general grounds, and said that as to the mere fact of borrowing money, when it was intended to devote the loan to the'purposes of internal improvement and of opening up the country, instead of being a subject for regret it should be regarded as the beginning of future prosperity. Mr. Mooee expressed his conviction of the expediency of raising a loan for internal improvements, but should have wished to have seen in the Schedule some provision made for establishing steam communication between the different settlements. He was of opinion that a portion of the funds set apart for Immigration might readily be devoted to this ■purpose. The state of feeling in the Australian Colonies with respect to New Zealand was so strong, that he thought it would be found not be expedient to set apart so large a sum as was proposed for the purposes of Immigration. He also thought some provision should be made for the future purchase of lands from the Natives. If at any time a necessity existed lor providing funds for making such purchases, he thought it particularly desirable at the present juncture, when every month's delay would possibly increase the difficulty and expense of making them. Some means he thought should be devised, even by incurring personal responsibility if it were necessary, to accomplish an object which was so desirable for the future prosperity of the Province. Another feature to which he would advert was, the necessity of promoting in every way the formation of new lines of roads. He thought the opening up a road to the Ahuriri district to. be a matter well . worthy their consideration, and with these qualifications would support the measure before them. Mr. Wakefield said 'that upon the principle of the Bill he entirely agreed with his Honor's Government. Instead of objecting to the amount of the: proposed loan as being too much, he should be glad if more money could be borrowed, provided always that a profitable investment were shown by the' Government. Of course, all depended on how the borrowed money was to be laid out. He had long held the opinion, that in a colony or new country, where, as had been said, the business of individuals and the community is to make war upon the wilderness, there could not exist that prosperity which the Americans called " going a-head" — that state of advancement which was the natural state of new colonies — without getting into debt. Borrowed- capital was the only means whereby the 1 natural resources of unset-

tied countries could be developed. He would cite an instance which was strongly impressed on his memory. Before Canada obtained local self government with a responsible Executive^ ! .that colony could not borrow money : her crej dit was bad : but she had no sooner obtained responsible government than she was able to borrow £1,500,000, the whole of which was ! expended on public works of communication, such as roads and canals. In a few years, the tolls on those works paid the interest on the amount of their cost ; .and, the navigation of the Great Lakes being laid open to the ocean, so that a vessel could proceed from the West Indies to Chicago at the bottom of Lake Mii chigan, traversing 1500 miles of inland waters, Canada exhibited a sudden and wonderful prosperity. The mere outlay of the borrowed money, long before the works were completed, added to the means of the settlers, and caused a productive outlay by them. A mere outlay of foreign .capital, however unproductive!}', gave life and activity to the industry of a colony. For example, it had been reckoned by careful and sagacious observers, that the rebellions in Canada, notwithstanding all the evils of civil war, had conduced to the economical prosperity of the colony by means of the military outlay of millions by the British Government. He felt sure that there was ample scope in the | Province for the productive and most beneficial outlay on public works of any money that they should be able to borrow ; and that every shilling's expenditure would add to the value of the security. Therefore, he cordially approved of the Bill, whose object was to pledge the Provincial revenue as security for a very moderate | loan. And there he should have stopped, but for the greater part of the speech of the hon. ' Secretary, which related to a different subject. The hon. gentleman had dwelt at great length on a question, which the Bill did not bring before them, and which was, indeed, foreign to its matter; namely, the question of the legality of any appropriation of the general revenue by the Governor's warrant alone. The hon. gentleman's elaborate argument on that subject appeared to him (Mr. W.) very impolitic. A proverb said that "he who excuses himself overmuch, accuses himself"; and it was brought to mind by the great pains which the hon. gentleman took to persuade them that the Governor's warrant is a legal appropriation. There seemed to be a weak point, which needed to be bolstered up by elaborate and ingenious argu ments. That was scarcely wise. Nobody doubted that, whether legally or not, the Province would obtain two-thirds of the general revenue ; nobody imagined that the General Assembly would take away what the Governor had appropriated, however illegally : the means of the Province were ample ; but doubts and suspicion of its good faith might be engendered if the Government so unnecessarily took pains to make out, what could not be established, that the Governor's warrant was a legislative appropriation. It would be more politic, though, as in the other case, wholly unnecessary as concerning the measure before them, to avow that the Governor's warrant is of doubtful legality. Several of the other Provinces had done so, but had not thereby diminished the value of the security on which they might borrow money. Nay, lenders might have more faith in a Government which frankly admitted and directed attention to a flaw in the title, than in one which unnecessarily took pains to conceal it. Notwithstanding the sort of doubt cast upon the security by the hon. gentleman's impolitic argument, he \Mr. W.) believed the pledge of its whole revenue by that Province for the sum in question, was as good a security as could be offered by any colony in the British empire. Mr. Brandon expressed his satisfaction that the present measure would be allowed to pass without opposition. Fears had been entertained that the General Assembly would appropriate the whole revenue, but should such an appropriation take place, it would be a serious infringement of tlve Act. The hon. member argued that the present appropriation of the revenue by the Governor was legal, and that the Governor was empowered under the Ordinances to which the Provincial Secretary had referred to make such an appropriation. The Provincial Secretary would Tiave experienced much more satisfaction if he had been called upon to answer any substantial arguments, and he anticipated this pleasing and tranquil change would be followed by other changes. It had been argued by an hon. member (Mr. Ludlam) that the General j Assembly had an undoubted right to take i every shilling of the revenue. But if they had the power there was no reason to expect that any attempt would be made to exercise it. A person has the right to squander in a single night all his substance, but it does not therefore follow that he will do so. They may ; have the power but the odds are they will I never exercise it. He would now say one or two words on tho observations made by the hori. member for the Hutt (Mr. Wakefield), arid he would confess his total inability to reconcile his statements ; how it was possible to sanction the act of borrowing, and in the same breath to say they had no right to borrow on that security. It was as though the borrower should say to the ! lender, the security is a very good one, but don't inquire how I got it. He was quite at a loss to reconcile such opinions, and if he held them he should feel bound to oppose the raising of a loan with all his might The hon. member (Mr. W.) had complimented'him on the elaborate arguments with which he had supported the second reading of the bill, but he was sorry he was unable to return the compliment. The hon. member had said he (the Secretary) had forgotten to state all the advantages arising from the expenditure of the loan, but these were so very palpable, and of so accidental a nature as not to form part of the principle of the bill. The spending of money was always advantageous, but that was no reason to be advanced by Government for borrowing it. But they had been further told by the hon. member that the question of the security was nothing, but he was quite at a loss to know hoAv the question was otherwise to be dealt with, as it was a mere act of insanity to ask for a loan without offering adequate security. It reminded him of the story' of the man, who when he put his name to' a promissory, note, exclaimed" "Thank God, that's done with.

The lion, member had insinuated a desire on his (the Secretary's) part of letting the Governor down softly. He (the ■ Secretary) was willing to meet argument by argument, and if he had avoided entering fully into either of those points, to which the hon. member had referred, he would have been, liable ;to the imputation of having slurred over one j of the mosfc important questions (that -had been brought before the Council. : It was an , old adage that if the cap fits, a man was welcome to wear it, ,and it might be applied on* j the present occasion. A very great revolution of ojiinion had occurred among hon. members on this question. Every member had now, for one reason or another, come to the >same conclusion ; they had all agreed on the expediency of raising a loan, though at one' time a very different result might have been expected. He believed the arguments put forward in favor | of the measure, to be irrefragable. The bill was then read a second time.

CEMETERY BILL. Mr. Lyox moved the second reading of this bill, and briefly explained the grounds on which it was brought forward. In the original plan of the Town a large reserve had been made for a Public Cemetery. By a final arrangement in 1849 this reserve had been divided into certain proportions between the members of the Church of England and those of other religious denominations. It was to this latter portion of the Cemetery that this bill applied, and the object of the bill was to put the ground under proper management by the appointment of Trustees, who should be vested with the necessary powers to establish such rules, and make such arrangements as might be required for keeping it in good order. The Bill was then read a second time.

JDK. FITZGEEALDS PETITION. Mr. Bell made a few observations on the Petition presented by Dr. Fitzgerald relative to the management of the Colonial Hospital, but was interrupted on a point of order.

•COMMITTEE ON LOAN BILL. The Council went into Committee on this Bill when the greater part of N the clauses were discussed and agreed ,to. On the question of interest Mr. Hart asked the hon. Secretary to explain Avhat provision was intended for fractional portions of interest. It seemed by the Bill that interest would be due half-yearly in such a way, that none would be due for any time previous to the half-yearly day during which the money had been advanced. The Prov. Secretary, in answer to the question of the hon. member for the Hutt (Mr. Hart) said that the Government had considered the point of interest for broken periods, .and, had come to the conclusion that the best course would be to abide by the general custom in respect to interest on money, which was that fractional ppriocls are not- allowed for. After some further discussion it was agreed that the payment of interest should be made quarterly, and that interest should be allowed on broken periods. Several items in the schedule were also considered when the Chairman reported progress, and the House adjourned.