PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Tuesday, December 6, 1853.
The Speaker informed the Council that the Standing Orders had been approved n/ by the , Superintendent. , Mr. Wakefikld supposed, that as a matter of privilege took precedence, according to their standing rule, of all other business, he must needs be in order when rising to address the House on the subject of the queslion to be put to him by the hon. the Provincial Secretary, notice of which had been given for that day. He had received from th.c hon. Secretary a written statement of the q^es^on ; an,d when, the question should be put to him presently, he should be ready with a distinct answer. JJ3ut in the | mean time, he was desirious, not as being personally concerned with the subject, but as a member of the House, to express a hope, that when the question should be put to him, it ! would be accompanied by two statements ; first, a statement of the circumstancs which! led the hon. Secretary to deem it bJ3 duty to put the question, and, secondly, a statement of the purpose or object which the hon. Seere r tary had in view. He imagined tha,t in any matter relating fp a breach of privilege, the House would not allow one of its members to be questioned by another, without .being informed both of the various circumstances of the case — that is, of the facts on which the question was* based— rand of the ulterior purpose of the questioner. So much information would be only fairtowards the House itself, and towards \he member questioned. He (Mr. Wakefield) asked for it, not on his individual account (for to him personally, in the present instance, it mattered not thatthe information 'should be given) but for' the sake of keeping order in thejr proceedings • for the sake of all the members of the House in future, to the end that whenever a member proposed to question another member concerning occurrences out of the House, and relating to privilege, the House itself should be able to form a judgment as, to the propriety of the- question and the sufficiency of the answer, or of the reasons of the , member questioned for declining to answer. Unless some such rule were observed, the .House would have no se-
curity against the interruption of its proceedby idle and vexatious enquiries addressed by one member to another. He then-fore wished, that when the hon. Secretary should put his question, lie would accompany it by the explanations which he (Mr. W.) had ventured to suggest.
PETITIONS. Mr. Moork presented a petition from Mr. S. E. Grimstone,praying for compensation on the loss of his office. Mr. Ludlam presented a petition from twenty eight settlers of the Lower Hutt, praying the Council to address the Superintendent to grant a sum of money, equal to the amount of their subscriptions, to aid them in the construction of .a road. % k ■ Mr. Lton objected to receiving the petition, •as being a direct application for money, Mr. LtJDLAM understood it had been agreed that an indirect application might be made 'through the Council to the Superintendent, 'though the Council would hare no power tc vote any money. Mr. Wakefield said that when this subject -was before the House during the discussion on Standing Orders, the Provincial Secretary had 'distinctly stated that in his opinion there was •no objection to indirect applications for money; -and the rule, which, as originally proposed, "forbad all applications for money, both direct -and indirect, was modified, in accordance with "that view, by being made to forbid direct application only. As in the petition which had been already received, the prayer of this peti"tion was indhect, being, not for a grant of money by the Council, bat for a suggestion by the Council to the Superintendent that he • should recommend a grant. The Provincial Secretary would submit -to the Council whether so direct a prayer for money, as that of the petition before them, was -•not an infringement of their Standing Orders; he - would be willing to waive the rule in the present instance, coupled with the observation that the House ought not to encourage such applications. He thought the course of the House should be to frame an address to the Superintendent, but not that the address should ask for any specified sum. Both petitions were .against the -spirit of their Standing Rules; and though he objected to get rid of the petition now before them by «. «Ide wind, he would recommend that it should be withdrawn and amended, on the ground of its containing a -direct application for a specific sum of money. Mr. Ludlam understood -whea this discussion was first raised, the question was whether the public should not have the right to petition •for money for public .purposes. J3e admitted it •was necessarythe Superintendent -ehoald have =a controlling power, bat it was also necessary that the public should be atile to -state •wishes to the Council, who would otherwise have to guess their'.mpaning. $f the public were to be debarred from coming to this House, 'they would lose one of the most valuable privileges of Repr* sentative Institutions. I Mr. Moork was certainly under tke im-' rpression that it was settled on the disenseion of fthe Standing. Orders, the public were to enjoy ihe privilege of .petitioning the Council, on the "understanding that it was to be so used as not *to embarrass the •Government by continually siskins: for grants of money vwhen it was known that Government could net comply with the -•application. But it would now appear from 'what bad fallen from the Provincial nhat the right of petitioning amounted to mothing. After some further disouEsion the petition was 'received, as was also a similar one from the settlers of Wainui-o-mata presented by Mr. TLudlam. Mr. Renat.l presented a similar petition 1 •fn m some settlers at the Hutt, praying for •assistance in making a bye road. Mr. Brawdon objected to ihe petition being received, as being a direct applicatien for unoney. After some discussion Mr. Wakefielb said that, as it strucVhim, •the question of " direct" or indirect" had nothing to do with the thing .prayed for^: it related solely to the manner of praying. It mattered not what the specified object of a petition •mas—whether oompensatLn for loss of office <or money for .a road—but whether the prayer was 'or vw.ae not so «couched as to be a direct apnriicafion to flic 'Council. Whatever might be 'ihe fhing .prayed for, ff the sprayer was not to •the Council, Tiutto the Superintendent through the' Council, thatj'sarely, -was an indirect mode •of praying. 'Gould 3iis Honor* Legal Adviser point out a smode of praying for money " more clearly indirect, 'than the one whidh 'had "been adopted in framing'these petitions? The Prov. Secretary thought there was •sor«e misconception on the subject, it appeared to him no application could be more direct for •a' grant .of money, which by the Constitution • Act thry were prevented from giving- It-would - %c quite easy to forni A the requisite information to the Superintendent without infringing the standing orders. Members having .charge of petitions should consider whether they were such as could be presented to the House, if •+they - contained direct applications for money they should be sent back, not as refused, but to be amended so as to meet the standing or- ■ ders. ; - • - After some further discussion the Petition was received.
BREACH 07 PRIVILEGE, fSevqral notices ,of motion for ,the following ,day having been .-gi«;en, The Prov. Secretary said, before putting the question of .which he Jh.ad jjiven notice, he would take the .opportunity yit£ 'reference to tjie prev^ons observations of the* hon. member for the Hutt, to relieve his mind of any idea of any hostile intention 03 his (the Secretary's) part jn ,the course be was about to take. With regard, £0 the foundation of h(is present proceeding, information had been proffered to him that a statement had been made by the hon. .member at a meeting at' the H utt, deeply affecting the position of himself and bis colleague.' The question he was about to put was asked in good faith and with no ulterior design, all he sought for was the truth. ~' He wished to ask, whether at the public meeting held at the Hutt on Tuesday, the 15th November, he (Mr. W.) made any assertion to the effect that Mr. Fitzherbert and jMjv Brandon resigned* tbur seats in the Pro-
vincial Council, and afterwards voted and took part in the business of the Council. He would a k the hon. member to change places with him, and to imagine what his feelings would be on such an occasion. He was sure he would be the first to ask for an explanation. The hon. member concluded by reading an extract from a work referring to the proceedings in Parliament on breach of privilege. Mr. Wakbfibld could not complain of the tone or manner of the Hon. Secretary. On the contrary they were courteous, not to say conconciliatory. But no information had been given to the House as to the circumstances on which the question is founded. Where, when, 'and from whom, d ; d the hon. member learn that which has induced him to ask this question ? Perhaps he heard . it; somewhere at a dinner table, or in his own house, or on the road ; perhaps from a person worthy of credit, • perhaps not ; from one who had made notes of what he reported, or from one who spoke from memory only. The House should have been informed on these points, because though the Hon. Secretary denied any intention to treat this matter as a breach of privilege, yet, by reading the extract from a volume which related to that subject, he bad, by implication , treated this as a matter concerning the privileges of members. However, he (Mr. Wakefield) would now answer the question, which he bad received in writing that morning. The question was — " Whether at the Public meeting held at the Hutt on Friday, the 15th November, he made any assertion to the effect, that Mr. Fitzherbert and Mr. Brandon resigned their seats in the Provinciul Council, and afterwards voted and took part in the business of tht Council." He held in his hand a printed report of exactly what he had said at the meeting, and would read it to the Council. Mr. Wakefield then read the Wellington Spectator of 19th November as follows :—: — "A special reason for this opinion appeared in the utter disregard which had, on one occasion, been evinced by the official members, of their own proposal that members accepting office should resign immediately. They induced the Council to pass a resolution to that effect ; ami they announced that they had, as Provincial Secretary and Legal Adviser, become members of the Executive ; and then, instead of at once resigning their seats, which according to the resolution of the Council, were forfeited by their acceptance of office, they came back into the House, and spoke, and voted, just as if no such resolution had been passed. The impropriety rf this proceeding was pointed out to them but in vain." It appeared therefore that what he! had Said was, not, as the hon. Secretary's question implied, that he and his colleague had resigned their seats in that House, but just the contrary, namely', that they did not resign their seats in the House, but retained them after they ought to have resigned. What he had said was fHniost. directly the reverse of what -had been attributed to him by the question. He could *not : but wish that the hon. member had mentioned the -source 'of his informa ion. Here was a published'repsrt'of'the meeting, df 'Which 'the hon. member must have been '-cognisant, which tdtalty d ffereti from his 'representation. The hon. 'member had brought foiward matter for whteh there WUa no foundation.; which was wholely baseless. He (Mr. Wakeh"g!d>) would ask why 'the question 'had been 'thought neces« . -sary. Would the hon. Secretaiy inlorm the' House, on whose representation, or on What •ground, he had framed the question'? ' The Prov. Secretary in reply read a letter" signed A. Milne, and another signed D. M'Ewen, dated December "t" t on which he said his statement was' founded. Mr. Wakefield was glad that the hon. Secretary's authority had been stated ; for the House would now see what weight it deserved. The meeting was held on the l'sth November. The declarations which had been read, were not made till the 3rd of December, more than a fortnight after the time when he had spoken atthe meeting. He happened to possess a report •of the meeting; which was made on the spot and at the time, and which formed ike basis of the Spectator's report. The writer of that report, which consisted of rough votes, was a respectable settler, but n total stranger to Mm, (Mr,. Wakefield). There could be no objection to the mention of his name— Mr. Corbett. He ' '(Mr. W.) had not to his knowledge seen him till they met at the meeting, when. he gave him the book containing these «otes^ and they had not met or had any communication -since that time. [Mr. Wakefield then read some notes • from the book, which falhr tallied with the Spectator's report] . It should be feorne in mind •that these rough notes wer-e made at the time without any possible object but that of reporting oourectly. They did not depend upon ■memory, like representions procured a -fortnight after rthe meeting. They so exactly agree with tthe printed report in the newspaper, fchtt the two, taken together, seamed to dispose of tke } hoo. Secretary's complaint. He (Mr. W.)i must, however, draw the attention of the House to the manner and foundation of that-eomplarat. Though, the hon. Secretary made no direct charge of breach ©f privilege, the charge was implied by his whole .proceeding; and on .what, did it rest ? On declarations totally 'contrary , to the fact, procured a fortnight after the fact took place. He trusted that the Council would bear this in mind, so that if ever again such a question were put to a member, care might be taken to obtain from the questioner a statement of the grounds and object of his question. .Unless such a rule were established, the time ,of the Council might be frequently wasted, and the progress of public business impeded, by .disqusgipns founded on 'mere slander and gossip. (Applause in the Strangers gallery, which waa checked by cries of " order" from the Speaker). Mr. Brandon, as one of the parties referred" to, thought it very strange the words uttered i>y the hon. member should receive such very distinct and different interpretations. He ,ha,d been assured by different perspns those were the words used by the hon. member, and it w,as then resolved to put tjte question to-him. Jt had been said their seats were forfeited on their acceptance of office, but the resolution passed by the Council was very different from , the Act of Parliament which declared that any member's seat,' on his accepting office, should ipso facto become void. They were' made, in the report of the hon. member's speech at the Hutt, to go and comeback again to the Council during the debate, which was not the ease.
Mr. Wakb»i*ld said the hon. member, the Provincial Solicitor, seemed to misapprehend the plainest , words in the English language. He had merely followed the lead x)f his colleague in the Council, l»y confounding two totally -different things, and endeavoufirtg to mystify the subject. . lie (Mr. W.) had said that the two members of the Executive Council had spoken and voted in that House after their « acceptance of office under the.Superintendent, not after resigning their seats in that House. He had fullv-eXplamed this difference once, but without giving" any satisfaction to the Provincial Solicitor, "that hon. gentleman goes even further than his colleague ; for, by inuendo at least, he alleges that his ( Mr. W's.) version of what took pl^ce at the Hutt meeting, and of the gentleman who reported the proceedings for the Spectator, were incorrect. He even vent, tured, notwithstanding the full and clear explanation which had been given, to question, by insinuation, the veracity of both. He (Mr. W.) would therefore call on two members of that House, who were present at the meeting, to state which of the two versions was, in .their opinion, the correct one;- ' ' | Mr. Renall felfcgreat reluctance ift addressing the Council on this question, and was sorry, to find so _trivial_,a matter urged with such gravity as - had been done, in this instance. Since he had been appealed to he would state he conceived Mr. Wakefield to be fully borne out by the report of the" meeting; he was sur- ! prised the learned gentleman should have put leading questions to ,his informant ; such a course was never admitted in a court of justice, 1 and was 'not the way to get at the truth, Mr. LuDLAM.in answer to Mr. Wakefield's appeal would shortly state his opinion. His impression was Mr. - Wakefield had said, a resolution had been passed by the Council compelling members tq. resign their seats, and in defiance of this resolution, the two members of Government continued to take part in the proceedings of the Council. He (Mr. L.) was perfectly certain Mr. W. had never said they had taken part in the business of tlie "Council after they had resigned. The learned member had attempted to draw a distinction between a resolution of the House and an act, but he (Mr. 1 L.) complained, a resolution of the House had been treated with contempt in the course that' had been pursued by the members of Government. Mr. BrXndon entered into a vindication of. his conduct, when Mr. Rbvans rose to order, and said 'the time cf the Council was being wasted in a discussion drat ought not to have token place. ADDRESS TO SUPERINTENDENT. The Prov. Secretaby moved for the appointment of 'a Select Conrarfetee. to prepare an answer to the Superintendent's speech. Mr. Wakwield rose to submit to the Council some objections to Tfoe course proposed, which appeared to him deserving of consideration, teas supposed that when his iHonbrV speech should be broEgllt before them for discussion, they would obtain v sofne nnformation as j to the 'policy df his Honor's responsible advisers with regard 'to the government of "the Province. Stit 'instead -of fhe discussion to which all had teofeed forwards it Was- nojv .proposed that they should take the tmosual course of referring the whole subject io ti -select committee* where it Would be shuf up, and removed from all discussion by the Council as a body. There had been a good deal of complaint about' the long delay of the members of the Government in bringing on a discussionof'his Honor's speech. Most of that delay was caused by the recess ; but it was certainly understood that immediattly after the recess, tihe House would' proceed to take notice of the' speech. It appeared now that the whole matter was to be shelved for an indefinite time in the room of a select committee. Every hen. member would recollect that on similar occasions in other le-' gislative bodies, the practice 1 was to consider "the speech of theliead of the Executive in the 1 "House -itself, and to return a complimentary, answer without delay. The "coarse proposed seemed to be wanting "in respect to the Superintendent, doubtless his Honor's advisers meant nothing of the sort ; bqt there would surely "be an appearance of disrespect, if the' speech with which the Superintendent opened the session were not considered and answered in the usual way. Another objection to a select committee was, tfhat a majority cf *its members would be partizans of the ' Government, who would naturally be tempted to 'frame an answer which would be a mere echo of the speech ; and the Council would be called on to adopt 'ns -their own all the Varied statements, suggestions, and arguments centaiaed in that Voluminous document. This would be unfair towards members who from parts of the speech ; and it Would, he .thought, be unwise in the •Coaneil to connmit.tbereteelves irretrievably, without further enquiry or information, to so many and such varied opinions as were set forth in the speech. For. example, the Conecil would thereby be committed to a« approval of proposed financial arrangements based on an appropriation of the .general revenue which many people -considered.altc^gether iUegal „• they would ailso 'be committed to an approval <rf ttoat policy which suspends all 1 General Government for New Zealand. He was vr weYy unwilling to expose himself to the charge", which had 'been J already most unjustly made against some members of the Council, that they wilfully impeded the Government. He -had no such intention. On the contiary.be felt contfiderit that if the House would reject the idea 1 of 1 a, select committee, and adopt the usual course of sending aa answer to the speech in complimentary but general terms, va which the wnole£auncil might concur, the first step twofild -be taken towards proceeding to dispose of the public business of thesessjoa. ,... Mr. Ludfclarn .and Mr* Moore supported Mr. Wakefield's view. The Prov. Secretary fully appreciated the concern which fcad been evinced by hon. members, lest his (Colleague and~ himself should be wanting in respect to the Superintendent. - He was perfectly willing to deal with the question itp.-morrow, or some early day, and to pursue such a .course as should be agreed upon by the Council.. Hie begged to withdraw the notice of a Select- Committee in favour of one for a general Committee. i Mr. Wa£evxbld trusted that the lion, member (Mr.,. Brown) would .give way to the Government tQ?morrow, so that they might with*
out farther "delay bring on the oft-postponed consideration of his Honor's speech. The Pkov. Secretary on the part of Government declined to stultify themselves l'\ making any motion on the subj-ct; they left that to those members who wished to press the discussion, simply stating they were ready to enter upon the question whenever it should be brought forward. Mr. Wakefielo said that the lion. Secretary, in proposing to cast upon independent members the responsibility of directing the course and order of business in the Council, was talcing a most unusual and mischievous course. The members of the Government who,j3at in that House, ought to be solely responsib p for the mode of conducting the business. It was a strange way of attempting to get through business — that of calling.on members unconnected witlTGovernment to settle the order of business in the Council. It was substituting for his Honor's Government what they would have to call his Honor's Opposition. It was then arranged that Mr. Brown's motion should stand for Wednesday, and the Committee for preparing an answer to the adJress was fixed for the following day. On the motion of Mr. Brandon the following bills were read a first time — A bill for shortening the language of Acts of Council, an Empowering Bill, a Bill relating to Pines and Forfeitures, and a Bill relating to Licenses and Fees. The Council then adjourned.
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New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 872, 10 December 1853, Page 2
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3,877PROVINCIAL COUNCIL. Tuesday, December 6, 1853. New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IX, Issue 872, 10 December 1853, Page 2
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