LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, June 16, 1849.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 405, 20 June 1849, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, June 16, 1849.

The Council met at 2 p. m. On the motion of the Attorney- General the bill to confer certain powers on the Litute-nant-Goveruor was read a third time and passed. The Lieutenant-Governor then read the following reply to the resolutions of the Council on the subject of Education •:*— -

I have perused wiih much interest and attention the very able report and the resolutions founded upon it, prepared by the subcommittee on Education, and adopted by the Legislative Council of this Province, and 1 have endeavoured to give the best deliberation which the short time elapsed since these documents were laid upon the table has enabled me to afford to a subject of such magnitude and importance. The considerations which have principally suggested themselves to me and to which I cannot but attach great weight, are the following :—: — First. That a law is already in existence for the purpose of promoting E lucation, that this law extends to the whole colony, a-)d that it was framed and passed by a Legislature acting for the whole of New Zealand, without therefore attaching any undue degree of perfection to the Ordinance to which I refer, I think we ought not lightly or hastily to reverse any law of which the efficiency or its suitability to the circumstances of the colony has not been tested or found defective, ami I cannot forget that the Education Ordinance, Session 8, No. 10, has only been in existence for about a year and a half, that thtre has been as far as I am aware only one appropriation under it at Auckland, and that it has never yet been acted under in New Munster since the separation of the colony into two Province*, because when the time came for carrying the law into effect the Executive Council of the Province declined to recommei d any appropriation being made in accordance with its provisions. It cannot therefore be asserted that the existing law is insufficient or unsuitable, because it has not been tested. Whether that law embodies the best system which could be devised for this colony is another question, and one which involves so many and such important considerations, that 1 confess I am unwilling to express an opinion without giving the subject a much longer and more mature consideration than 1 have yet had the opportunity of bestowing upon it. Secondly. Supposing the existing law to b j found i..t>utKcient or defective, I think it should be shewn ih.it it could not be so amended as to remedy those defects without subvening altogether (so far at least as Euiopeaus are concerned ) the system which h establishes. In theii third resolution the Council express an opinion that the present Education Ordinance, considered with reference to the European population, requires amendment, but thtir subsequent resolutions recommend the substitution of a different and totally opposite sys'em from that embodied in the Ordinance. Where changes so great are proposed on a subject of such general interest and df srich vital importance to the future welfare of the whole community and more especially so when that subject is one upon which gre^t diversity of opinion is known to fxist, I think it would hardly be right to legislate without giving the public an opportunity ot expressing their opiuio i prior to this Council being called upon to alter the law. It appeais to me that under any circumstances ii woultlbe unwise to introduce a Bill to alter the exisiing law, so nearly at the close ot the session, when it would be impossible to ascertain the state of public opinion respecting it, when the Bill iuelf must he huriiedly prepared, and when this Council could scarcely have bu'rcient time maturely to consider and deliberate upon a question of such magnitude and importance, without unduly trenching upon the time and attention of those honorable members whose continued attendance for a protracted session rould not be obtained without entailing upon them great personal sacrifices and inconveniences, and which, alter the ready and zealous manner in which they have already devoted themselves to the public service, 1 think the Government would not be justified in subjecting them to. Thirdly. I look upon the question of education as one of those geneial subjects upon which it is desirable that a uniformity of legislation should exist throughout the whole colony, and 1 think, therefore, that although not one of the points upon which the Provincial Council are interdicted from legislating, it is one which would be more appropriately considered and decided upon by the General Legislature of New Zealand. For the above reasons, and others which it is unnecessary for me to ente. upon at present, 1 regret that I do not feel myself justified in acceding to the request of the Legislative Council to introduce a Bill during the present session, embodying the principles contained in the resolutions adopted by the Council on the 11th instant. I am quite willing to admit the excellence of some of those principles, but I have strong doubts as to how far any system of education, founded upon them, would be suitable to the present state and circumstances of New Zealand, whe c the population is so scattered and the expense of carrying out the proposed system would be so much greater than the revenue of the Province j* likely to be able to meet

for some years to come, even if no other difficulties (and I confess there appeir to me to be many) existed ; on the other hand, the ptinciple of compulsory education involves, to Englishmen at least, so new and startling a departure from ordinary practice, that much consideration and many enquiries would be necessary before a Government would feel justified in proposing its adoption. I have thus briefly pointed out some of the reasons which hive had weight with me in the decision 1 hate come to, but I must claim the indulgent consideration of (he Council, on account cf the very short time which has been allowed me to devote to the consideration of so difficult and comprehensive a question, for not entering more at length into its discussion ou the present occasion. E. Eyre. His Excellency then observed, that having stated the general grounds on which he considered it his duty not to introduce a bill during the present session, he would suggest that the Council should appropriate a sum for edudit onal purposes to be applied under thf* present ordinance, and that in order to meet 'he case of the schools at Nelson, a sepaia'e sum should be voteil, for this year at least, applicable to those schools. He thought that before the Council met again there was every probability ol the General Legislature meeting, and he would lake care to transmit the j views of this Countil to the Governor-in-Chief, as he considered l at it was a subject wiich it would be better to leave to the General Legislative Council as the powers of this Council only extended to one Province, and any enactment of theirs might be overruled by a vote of the General Council. On the motion of Dr. Monro the report and resolutions of the Committee appointed to enquire into the subject of the dog nuisance was adopted by the Council, some of the members expressing an intention to move amendments to some of the details in Committee it the Lieutenant-Governor should accede to (heir request to introduce a bill. Mr. Seymour moved that the bill to facilitate summary ejection fiora private propeity he read a third time. Dr. Monro wished to make a few remarks, as he was unfortunately prevented by indisposition from being present at the second reading. He would take that opportunity of observing that he thought it very necessary there should he seme representative of the New Zealand Company in the Council, in order to give explanations and answer questions. Had there been such a representative he should have put one or two questions to him which he was now compelled to put to his Excellency with some doubt as to whether he would he able to answer them, indeed he doubted if any individual in the Council could answer them. There was one provi>h>n in the b'll which it was now proposed to rea.l a third lime which made the New Zealand Company's landorders sufficient evidence of title, now he wished to know why this extraordinary measure, as it appeared to him, should he adopted. He believed the ComI any had been in possession of a Ciown grant for the land in this district for nearly two years, and of that in the Nelson district for six months, but he was not aware that they had yet registered these grants and thus made good the legal title of their land purchasers which would prevent the necessity of the Council's adopting such an unusual course as to make the Company's landorder a legal title. The Lieutenant-Governor said it was impossible for him to stale why the New Zealand Company had not issued the titles. But he would observe that there was one gentleman connected with the Company who held a seat in the Council but who was absent doubtless from sufEcien; reasons ; he thought it very desirable there should be a representative present. He would remind the hou. gentleman that the provision of the bill only made the title legal for the purposes of that Ordinance. Dr. Monro said that although nominally only for the purposes of that Ordinance, it was practically for almost all purposes, inasmuch as it gave the power of possession of the land. His Excellency observed that if any other prima facie claim was set up the matter would then have to be decided in the Supreme Court. Dr. Greenwood would take that opportunity cf correcting a tnistatement which had appeared in print, he had not said that the New Zealand Company held the land for the purposes of investment, but that they sold it to parties who held it merely as an investment. The bill was then read a third time and passed. On the motion of the Colonial Treasurer the Council then went into Committee on the Appropriation Ordinance. The Colonial Treasurer said that his Excellency having suggested the appropriation of the sum of £800 to be applied under the Education Ordinance, he would move the ap-

prop riation of that sum as a matter of form, but he objected to it himself as he disapproved of the Ordinance. Dr. Greenwood did not see on what principle ihe sura of £800 was put down. The revenue was estimated at £19,000 and if onetwentieth was to be applie I 10 educational purposes it would be £9.50, he therefore moved that the sum ,be £950. The Colonial Secretary said, that for himself hr never would agree to any such appropriation. He did not see the force of the objections which had been raised to the proposed Ordinance. He thought if the Council now voted any money to be applied under the existing Ordinance which they had already condemned, they would be stultifying hemselves. His objections to that Ordinance were nut so much that it did harm but that it did not do sufficient good. If they granted the money they would virtually acknowledge the principle of the bill, for they must recollect thai his Excellency intended to apply it under that bill. But if so, it must be applied with the Consent of the Executive Council as that bill provided — and that consent would not be obtained, for if (he other lion, members of that Council changed their minds it might be so applied, (he did not think they would do so); he for his own part never would consent to it. He slioull wish to enter on the minutes of Council his reasons for objecting to the Education Ordinance. The Lieutenant-Governor said if this Council voted a sum to be applied under the Education Ordinance; and the Executive Council refused to sanction it being applied under that Ordinance they would incur a very great responsibility. Dr. Monro said he was not inclined to throw any responsibility on the Executive Council which, as a member of the Legislative Council, he ought to tak • upon himself. For his own pait, he thought the Council should abstain from voting a>y sum for educational purposes this jear. He must express hia opinion with regard to the answer which his Excellency hail given to the report and resolutions of the Committee of the Council, bear ng in mind that the report was almost unanimously adopted by the Council, and that a great variety of opinions were represented in the committee, considering also the time the subject had been before the Council ai<d under consideration, he thought his Excellency was not justified in refusing to introduce a Bill on the ground that the question ba>i not been properly considered. It had been under consideration fur almost three weeks, and had been most fully discussed. He al«o differed from his Excellency in thinking the question of education was one which this Council ought not to interfere with, but that it should be referred to the General Assembly. He could not see that there was any fitness in the General Assembly wl ich this Council did not possess. He could not see any reason why one system should necessarily be adopted throughout the country. On the contrary, if the t\»o systems were in operation, it would afford an opportunity of seeing which worked the best. He protected against the Council giving up to the General Assembly any subject which, by the Provincial Councils' Ordinance, they were entitled to legislate upon, nor could he see that there was any superior wisdom in the Genet al Assembly which wouli justify them in putting it out of their jurisdiction and handing it at once to the General Assembly. His Excellency had given as one of his reasons lor not introducing a Bill that in consequence of the lateness of the session such a Bill would he hurriedly prepared. If it was true that the Bill would be hurriedly p epared, it was also true that the resolutions on which it was to be founded had been maturely considered, and, therefore, the expression hurriedly pi epared was more a figure of speech than any red objection. He did not know whether the hon. Colonial Secretary was in the Council in the North at the time the old Ordinance was passed, but he should imagine that that law had not received one seventieth part the careful consideration which had been given to the resolutions on the table. With regard to the law not having been tested, that argument was more in sound than reality, as every system which could be devised bad been tested in some part of the world. His Excellency had said that by .refusing to vote any sum they would be taking on themselves a great responsibility ;. that he would admit,- but the responsibility was not so serious as at first sight might appear. This Province had been without asssi&tauce from the Government for ten years, yet, notwithstanding, a considerable amount of education had beeu provided, and rather than vote money to be applied under the Education Ordinance, he would take the responsibility of refusing to vote it all, and he ennndered that in that case the responsibility would be le&s than it would be if they were to vote the money. He looked upon it as so important, that the principle contained in the report shoul ! be carried out, that he would rather leave the ; matter as it stands at present, than vote money I

for any purpose which miyht tend to interfere wirh the carrjiim otit of t 1 at scheme, and he should, therefore, decidedly object to vote any money to be applied under the <>1 1 X lucation Ordinance. He thought that the scheme which they had recommended, if it could have been carried out, would have been the greatest blessing any Legislature could have conferred on this colony. The Col. Secretary said, that with respect to the responsibility which his Excellencyhad mentioned, he thought it was very small ; for his own part he was quite willing to bear"' any and every responsibility of rejecting a wrong system and attempting to introduce a better. If the Council, after careful consideration, recommended the introduction of a Bill, and his Excell-ncy refused to introduce it, he thought the whole responsibility v/ould rest with his Excellency. The report and resolutions were passed by a large majority, nine to two, and if a Bill *as introduced and passed, the Go-vernor-in- Chief could Mill put bis veto on it, and he therefore thought that it was reducing the powers of the Council to a very low point. There was another objection. His Excellency had mentioned, that the opinion of the public was not known. Now, that objection, he thought, was also not calculated to increase the dignity and reputation of the Council. It was telling them in so many words that they were not considered to represent the opinions of the puohc, for all persons who supported this system of Government would consider that his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief would | lace in the Council only such persons as might be presumed to represent the people, although they were not absolutely representatives. He thought such a remark going forth to the public would sanction all that had been said against that system of Government. He was sorry that all petty matters should be left to the Council, and the one great and good thing which they might have done was denied them. He hoped the public would give the Council credit for their intention. He was quite certain their views would eventually be carried out ; the cause was a good one, and would triumph ; in very few yeajte— in very few months, he would say, if a General Council were established. In the meantime, he hoped the Council wou'd refuse to do anything which would uphold, or appear to sanction the present sectarian system. For his own part, he should be happy to bear the responsibility of any thing which would tend to do away with it, so objectionable was it in his mind. Dr. Greenwood agreed with most of the remarks of the hon. Colonial Secretary with the exception of the remark that the members of this Council were representatives of the community. He did not pretend to represent any opinion but his own, and he did not believe that any other member considered himself in any other position. He did not wish to vote any money to be applied under the old ordinance, but he thought it would be possible to adopt temporary measures which would not compromise the opinions of his Ex* cellency or those of his Executive Council. The Lieutenant-Governor said be should not consider himself justified in placing oh the estimates any sum which was not to be applied under the existing ordinance, excepting to meet the one case of Mr. Campbells schools. Mr. Seymour felt very great regret at his Excellency's reply, he had felt no appiehension that he would refuse to bring in a bill because, in his opening address, his Excellency had called the attention of the Council to that particular subject. He felt quite sore that all persons here viewed the subject of Education with as much interest as was now felt in it at home, and he could not sit down without expressing his regret that a matter of so great importance should be delayed even for a single day. Mr. Hickson seconded the motion before the Council, and stated that in his opinion that Council did not represent the opinions on this subject of the majority of people out of doors. Mr. Moore would be sorry to separate without voting any sum for Education, and he was prepared to vote for the appropriation of a sum under the existing Ordinance, unless some means could be devised by which the money could be applied in another way. The question (that the sum of £800 be appropriated for Education Jo be applied under the Education Oidinance) was then put and lost. The committee then considered the remaining clauses of the Appropriation Bill, after which the Council resumed and the report was brought up. Mr. Seymour brought up the report and resolutions of the Committee appointed to consider the provisions of the proposed Tu. npike Bill, and gave notice that on Monday next he should move that the Coancii do adopt a resolution requesting that his Excellency will be pleased to introduce a bill founded on those resolutions. The Council, then adjourned till Monday.