PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 14, Issue 723, 4 October 1869, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

TUESDAY, SEPT. 28, 1869. [Theremainder of this day's proceedings continued from oul- last.]

EXECUTIVE EEPKAL ACT.—ADJOURNED DEBATE,

Mr Tanner said that while he agreed with the principle of the bill, he took exception to the introductory remarks of the member for the Country District, who, in his usual forcible and emphatic manner, had told the Council that they had allowed themselves to be led like children by Mr M'Lean. Such remark-! were as uncalled for as they were incorrect. A member for the town had spoken of the late Superintendent as a dictator, but this was not correct, for that gentleman had never sought to coerce or dictate to the Council. He appealed to the feelings of the Council—said that his Executive had stood well by him and assisted him, and asked the Council as a personal favor to allow him to retain them. The Council had long considered that the time had come to do away with the Executive —whose anomalous position was generally admitted; and he believed the universal feeling on the resignation of the late Superintendent was that it was a suitable op portunity to make the change. He would be very happy to support the bill.

Mr Ferae, d made a long and elaborate speech, of which we have not space for more than a brief abstract. He said he quite felt the force of the objections of the member for the Country District and the Superintendent +o the Executive, and he was only sorry that they could not have the personal assistance of the member for Porangahau in a matter in which he was so well qualified to assist them. He felt that the existence of an Exeeutivenominated by the Superintendent and irresponsible to the Council, gave that gentleman a preponderating influence, and was a check on the freedom of the Council, giving rise to party combinations in self-defence, and making party struggles the 'chief occupation of the Council. He did no*> ihink, however, that the remedy for this was to hand over to the Superintendent m person all those powers hitherto held by him by and with the-advice and consent of the Evecutive Council; or that that check should be swept away without further alterations than those proposed in the bill now before them. He thought the the remedy lay in the Council meeting oftener; and at regular intervals, with speeia 1 meetings in case of important busi ness, and in taking the executive duties more directly into their own hands. If the Council elected the Provincial officers—Harbor Masters, Inspectors ofßoads,&c.,who wouldof course have to produce proper testimonials, would it not be better than leaving them to the Superintendent? For instance, should we have a less efficient Inspector of Schools, if he were appointed in this manner? At any rate a candidate would always have to show prima facie fitness for his office. There was another subject- - that of tolls and lees, and the sale of reserves, which were of f en left in the hands of the Superintendent and Executive It would not be advisable to give these powers to the Superintendent alone. While the Council was not in session, several members chosen tor the purpose by the Council might act as a committee of advice, who should be consulted on every item of expenditure not specially provided for by the Council, and without whose consent no such expenditure could be un dertaken. He was sorry, however, to say that he was in the unfortunate position of a man holding opinions which were never agreed in by other members.

Colonel Lambert would certainly support the bill, He would not. go so far as the member for Te Aule in praise of our late Superintendent, He thought that member was in error in representing Mr M'Lean as appealing alone to the feelings and sympathies of the members around. If he [Col. L.] remembered rightly he threatened to resign his office if he was deprived of his Executive. [Hear, hear.] As for the plan re commended by the member for the

town, he thought it would be hard to find a member who would occupyso undignified a position as that of Superintendent under the circumstances described. He would be a mere nonentity He trusted that t.he Council would assent to nothing of that kind. He would support the bill, believing it to be a step in the right direction. Mr Khodes considered that as the Executive had virtually died a natural death, there had been a wonderful waste of breath for these two mortal hou rs. The position sketched by the new Superintendent in his address, was, he thought, by far the the best under our present circumstances, though, if we were situated as we were a few years ago, with £40,000 or £50,000 to spend, he would be in a position of a dictator. Seeing, however, that the Executive had died, and the Council itself was in extremis, he could not conceive the object of all thin talk, Mr Buchanan spoke at some length in reply, explaining, among other subjects, that the Executive being entirely an irresponsible body, their removal would not reallv enhance the power of the power of the Superintendent. The motion was agreed to, and the bill read a second time. It was then committed, and the first clause being passed, the Chairman reported progress, and the Council adjourned to 7.30 p.m. The Council met at 7.30, and the bill, with one or two amendments, was passed through Committee,

and reported as amended to the Speaker. THE GOVERNMENT MOOBINGS. Mr Buchanan, bv consent, asked the Government if any steps had been taken to recover the Government moorings lost in the Ahuriri roadstead. Mr Rhodes in reply stated Oapt. Cellem had made several unsuccessful attempts to recover them, and that on the occasion of the last trip of the Sturt to this port Captain Fairchild employed two hours in grappling for them. He did not succeed in finding them, but intended to make another attempt on his next visit, and was sanguine of success. The Council then adjourned to 3 p.m. on Wednesday.

WEDNESDAY, SEPT. 29, 1869,

The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, —The Speaker, and The following members : Messrs. A'Deane, Buchanan, Oarlyon, Ferard, Lambert, Parsons, Rhodes, Sutton, Tanner, Kennedy, and Weston, The minutes of last meeting were read and confirmed. REWARD FOR PAYABLE GOLD-MELD. Colonel Lambert moved— That the sum of £SOO be paid to the discoverer of a payable gold-field, for which Napier will be the port of entry and departure. Mr Tanner seconded the motion Mr A'Deane said the Government had a very similar notice on the paper to be moved in Committee of Supply. The motion was then, by consent of the Council, withdrawn. ROAD TO KAIMANAWA.

Colonel Lambert, by consent of the Council, obtained the withdrawal of the following motion for the same cause as the preceding one : That the Superintendent be requested to recommend the appropriation of a sum of money towards opening the road to Kaimanawa for dray traffic. SLAUGHTER-HOUSE ACT AMENDMENT. Mr Tanner moved—lor leave to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the " Slaughter-house Act." Mr Weston rose to order. It was not competent for members of that Council to legislate on matters in which they had a pecuniary interest. The member for Te Aute had such an interest in the bill, as he was a shareholder in the Company to which it applied. He objected to the Speaker occupying his seat in the chair on the same account. The Speaker : I am not here to vote. Mr "Weston : I object to your presence as a member of this house. You have no right to rule on ohe subject as you are interested. L^ 1 '" cler.] Mr Carl yon said that the ride was a universal one which prevented

persons legislating on matters hi which, they had a pecuniary interest. It was customary for Judges who held shares in mining or railway companies to retire from the Bench when cases connected with those companies came before them. The Speaker ruled that the member who moved the introduction 0 f the bill was in order. For his own part, he had not the shadow of an idea what the bill was about, and the member for Waimarama, in the objection he had raised, was certainly out of order. Mr Carlyon moved that the bill be read this day six months. Mr Tanner : It has not been brought in yet. [Laughter.]] Mr Ferard opposed the introduction of the bill because it -was desirable to get through the business of the session, and because they had not the least idea what the bill was about. Though the Council possessed such complicated forms that they were constantly floundering about in them, yet important bills were often carried through after ly. ing about one day on the table, so that it was impossible for members to give them due consideration or propose the necessary amendments. Mr Sutton would also oppose the introduction of the bill, and one of his reasons for so doing was the determined opposition which the mover gave last session to a bill to amend the same Act. The Act required amendment, but it should not be amended at the fag-end of the session, and with four seats -vacant.

Colonel Lambed went to a great extent with the last speaker; but as a matter of courtesy ihe Council should give permission to bring in the bill. Those who opposed it could take the proper steps on the motion for the second reading. Mr Tanner said that a member, by supporting the introduction of a bill, did not identify him.-elf with its principles. He wondered at his learned colleague supporting the absurd objection raised by the member for Wrtimarama. The fact was sufficient to show that they knew noching abont the bill, which was in the interests of the public, and, if possible, more in the interests of those particular friends of his colleague, the butchers, whose fees it proposed to reduce by one-half. Mr Buchanan trusted that the principle would not be admitted by the Council that because a member had opposed an amendment bill in one session he should not be allowed, to propose another amendment bill the next. For courtesy's sake alone

he would .support the introduction of the MIL Mr Carlyon said he complained of his colleague trying to legislate on a matter in which he was personally interested. Leave was granted on a division, Messrs. "Weston, Ferard, and Sutton being the "noes." The hill was read O ... a first time on another Messrs, Weston, Carlyon, Feiard, and Sutton voting against it. Mr Tanner moved that the hill be printed and read a second tim& to-morrow. Mr Carlyon moved as an amendment " That the bill be neither printed nor read a second time." This. vas a sheer waste of time, and he hoped the Council would not consent to such ridiculous nonsense. Mr Weston seconded the amendment. Mr Tanner must express his astonishment at the bad taste displayed by his colleague

Mr Carlyon : It shows worse on your part to bring in a bill in which yon have a pecuniary interest. The Speaker : Have you seen the bill? Mr Carlyon : No, I have not. The Speaker : If you have any objection to the bill, the proper time to raise it is when it is before you. The bill was then ordered to be printed, and the second reading fixed for Thursday. "UNAUTHORIZED EXPENDITURE. Mr AT>eane moved— Whereas the "Provincial Audit Act, 1866, provides that unless an address to the Superintendent, to send to the Council a recommendatiou ta grant a sum of money sufficient to meet the un« authorized expenditure, shall be passed by an absolute majority of the entire number of the roejnj bers of the Provincial Council, the Provincial Auditor shall commence suits in the Suprentf Court to recover the penalties recoverable uft<w?

the said Act, for the signing and issuing special orders for the issue of money without appropriation ; and whereas it is necessary to release the Superintendent from the penalties to which he is liable for such over and unauthorized expenditure, the Council requests the Superintendent to submit to the Council a recommendation to grant a sum of money sufficient to meet the said unauthorized expenditure. .—lt was only necessary to say in explanation that this resolution was brought forward through the Ratification of Loan Expenditure Act of last session having been disallowed through the neglect of the Council in failing to pass a resolution similar to the present one. If the Council gave their assent to this resolution he intended to bring the Ratification Act in again. Mr Rhodes seconded the motion.

Mr Ferard said that the Government, by this resolution, showed plainly what value they set upon the Council. They were now asked to give their sanction to a large amount of unauthorized expenditure without being told for what objects that expenditure was incurred. It seemed quite unnecessary to put such things before the Council, for it was quite taken for granted that whatever the Superintendent spent without authority would be allowed by. the Council. This motion was so drawn as to actually include all the unauthorized expenditure to the present date, of much of which the Council knew nothing. The General Assembly never contemplated the passing of a resolution like this, which simply implied that the Superintendent might do just as lie pleased, and it was as well that the fact should be stated in broad terms. Colonel Lambert had always objected to money being spent in this manner. The least the Government could do would be to lay the items before the Council. Mr A'Deane said the Ratification bill would give the items. Colonel Lambert wanted more information. He had opposed this Ratification Bill last tession, on the same principle as he always opposed this method of dealing with unauthorised expenditure. Tiie Council should make more use of the power they possessed for no Executive could <ro far wrong if the House fulfilled ts duty. Mr Btjchan\n did not intend to discuss the question at any length; in fact it would be useless, for there were not sufficient membei s present to consider the question. [Mr Ferard here entered the chamber.] The entrance of the member for the town affected this remark, as the required number was now made up. [Mr Ferard and Mr Carlyon left the room.] He would draw the atten tion of the Speaker to the fact that there were only eight members pre sen+, and that to <«iseuss a question of this kind an absolute majority, or ten, were required. He would suggest that the question should be either withdrawn or postponed. Mr Rhodes said that the question was one affecting the late Superintendent alone. It did not concern the present Government, to whom it was a matter of perfect indifference whether it passed or not. Mr A'Deane only asked the Council to do again what they did last session. It would be a most ungracious thing to allow a motion for the release of the late Superintendent from his liabilities under the Audit Act to lapse. In fact, it would be must unconstitutional. [Oh.]

Mr Rhodes said the question Would come before the Council again when there was a full house.

Mr A'Deane asked leave to postpone the question until there were a sufficient number of members present for its consideration.

Colonel Lambert objected to the remarks of the member for Hampden. There was nothing ungracious in opposing this motion, The same members who resisted it last session Were resisting it now. The motion was then postponed. order.

Colonel Lambert rose to a point of order. He observed a member of the house [Mr Carlyon.] in thejpart of the building devoted to strangers. The Speaker said the only way to interfere with him would be to dvaw the attention of the Speaker to the fact of theie being strangers in the house. Mr Carlyon soon after resumed «»seat isx the Council*

HIKUTOTO BLOCK. Mr Rhodes moved— That a question having arisen between some of the Hikutoto leaseholders and the Provincial Government, as to the conditions of the agreement under which the Hikutoto lands can be purchase by the leaseholders, this Council is of opinion that the question had better be settled by a reference to the Supreme Court, on agreement of the parties concerned.

—The Supreme Court would soon be in session, and it was considered by all parties that the question could onlj be settled by a reference to that tribunal. The Papakura Block had been a positive loss to the Government, and if some such steps as this were not taken, the Hikutoto Block would be the same. Some of the Papakura lands had been sold at a low figure which should have been sold at a high sum, and others for less

than had been paid for them by the Government. The Government had therefore decided that no part of the Hikutoto Block should be sold for less than its cost price, and the question in dispute was what was the actual cost price. Some sections the leaseholders did not consider worth £2 or £3, while for o'hers they were willing to give £5 or £6. Theie were many difficulties in the way of arbitration—in fact it was one of those questions which the Supreme Court alone could settle,

Mr Buchanan : Are there no papers?

Mr Rhodes : I think not. Mr A'Deane seconded the motion.

Mr Tanner was glad the Government took so reasonable a view of the question. He considered that a Supreme Court decision would give satisfaction to all parties. Mr Carlyon said it was the practice of the Supreme Court to ignore all provincial statutes in any part of the Colony, and that it would not take notice of any resolution of this Council. They would, therefore, only make fools of themselves by passing it.

Mr Buchanan felt a monstrous deal of obfuscation on the subject. He took this resolution as sanctioning the Superintendent to appear as defendant in case proceedings w ere taken by the lesees.

Mr Rhodes said that the Government had been threatened with an action by some of the lessees, and they considered the best plan would be to refer the matter to the Supreme Court—not to proceed against the lessees for their rents. They could not do this without the consent of the Council, which they now a~ked. Agreed to on a division—noes, Messrs. Carlyon and Weston. RETURN OF EDUCATIONAL RESERVES. Mr Ferard moved— For a return showing tin; different sections of land in the .Province of Hawke's Bay reserved for school and educational purposes, number of section or block, area, annual rent, name of lessee, for what ferm leased, periods (if any) fixed for in crease of rent; and also a return of all other reserves in the province, and the purposes to which they are put. —This vas a motion notice of which had been given by the late member for the town, Mr Locke, who was well acquainted with the subject, and who said that the only return in the possession of the Council was an old and very incorrect one.

Colonel Lambert seconded the motion.

Mr Rhodes explained +hat a later and correct, return, piepared for a Government commission, appeared in a General Government blue book. This was as full of information as the Council could wish. Mr Fer\rd applied for leave to withdraw his motion; but Colonel Lambert objecting to the withdrawal, it was put and negatived. SITE I'OR COMMON SCHOOL. Mr Rhodes moved— For leave to brinj? in a Bill to grant a site for a Common School at Napier. Leave granted; bill introduced, read a first time, and second reading ordered for Thursday, A G-KIEVANCE.

Mr Rhodes moved — That the Council do resolve itself lata Committee of Supply.

last session, had been treated. [Question.] Mr Buchanan said the member for Waipukurau was quite in order. Redress of grievance always took precedence of supply, and as the member had a grievance now was his time to bring it forward. The Speaker could have understood it better if the member for Petane, who had moved the resolution in question, had brought up this matter of neglect as a grievance. Mr Buchanan said that the resolution was no longer the property of the mover after being passed. It became then the property of the Council, and if not carried out, any member might bring it up as a grievance.

The Speaker ruled the member for Waipukurau was in order.

Colonel Lambert continued to the effect that the late Government had nob carried out the resolution on account ol the unpopularity it would entail on them. It would not do to neglect this matter much longer, as the statute of limitation would soon come into effect. CATTLE TRESPASS ACT AMENDMENT. Fi\ r e o'clock having arrived, the Council proceeded with the orders of the day. Mr Parsons moved the second reading of the Cattle Trespass Act Amendment bill, which he explained gave power to private individuals to impound any catole wandering at large within or without the limits of any town.

Mr Ferard objected to the great power given by the bill, particularly out of towns. It would be very liable to provoke breaches of the peace. It would be a great hardship to poor men who were unable to enclose all their land at once, and were accustomed to let their cattle run together, with a general supervision, for it would place them at the mercy of any spiteful neighbor. In the case of a road across a sheep-run, he observed, a person might watch for all sheep that attempted to cross the road, and drive them off immediately to the pound. It would facilitate the operations of horse and cattle-lifters, for if a man saw a fellow driving his horse along the road, and taxed him with it, he could at once excuse himself by saving that he found it on the road, and was taking it to the pound. He knew there were places in both town and country where horses and cattle on the roads were a nuisance, but there was: always something to be said on both sides.

Mr Tanner would support the bill, In every part of the country, where the Government had gone to the expense of making ditches at the -ides of the roads, if there was any grass growing there the cattle and horses w T ere deliberately turned adrift, and did great damage by trampling in the sides of the ditches. Not only this, but they put their heads through wire fences and did great mischief by devouring the crops. The incom eniences mentioned by the member for the town were slight when compared with those which at present existed. Mr Carlyon ('id not much object to the fhvt clause, referring to cattle within a town, but he took strong objection to the second clause which included "all cattle wandering at large outside the limits of any town." Positively the two together included all the cattle in the Province. There should also be an interpretation clause, defining ihe word "town"

Mr Parsons said the member foi the town had spoken of the hardship this bill would entail upon poor men whose land was unenclosed. Their remedy was plain—let them enclose it as soon as possible.

The bill was read a second time and committed. The Chairman reported progress and asked leave to sit again.

ADJOURNMENT. The necessary standing order being suspended, the Council fixed the

Colonel Lambert said he would sitting hour tor the following day at take advantage of this motion to 11 a.m. The house then (6 p.m.) refer to a grievance of which the adjourned to 7.30, Council had to complain—the un- cattle trespass amendment. satisfactory action of the Govern- The Council, on resuming, went merit in relation to immigrants' again into committee on the Cattle promissory notes, and the neglect Trespass Act Amendment Bill which with which an order of Council, was at length reported as amended moved by the member for Petariejto the Speaker,

EXECUTIVE EEPEAL AND AMENDMENT. Mr Buchanan moved the third reading of this bill. The Speaker notified that the legal adviser of the Government had reported to him that he could see no legal objection to the Act. Mr Carlyon dispute 1 the fact of there being any Provincial Solicitor. That officer had resigned, and the Speaker had yesterday ruled that there was no such person. Mr Rhodes explained that the Provincial Solicitor had resigned, and that his resignation had been accepted. Since then the Superintendent had appointed that gentleman Acting Provincial Solicitor.

Mr Carlyon: What? No, no, he can't do that. The Speaker : There is now sufficient evidence for the Council to proceed. Mr Carlyon : Do you call that evidence? That officer cannot get lid of his duties and responsibilities, while retaining his salary, and all his advantages and perquisites. It i*s monstrous.

This irregular discussion having continued for some time, — Mr Buchanan said that though the letter of the standing rule had been fulfilled, it was evident that the spirit had not been complied with. After some further discission the bill was read a third time and passed supply.

Mr Rhodes moved— For leave to brini? in " Ratification of Loan Expenditure Act, 1869."

Mr Ferard objected to the conduct of the Government in paying so little attention to the ordeis of the Council. Last se>sion a distinct pro mise was made that the estimates would be printed and distiibuted among members. This had not been fulfilled, and it was very difficult for the members to know how the finances of the Province stood. He believed that money had been voted to the full extent of the estimated re venue. Last session a complaint was made by the Council that the Inspector of Schools-had not fulfilled his duties by personally inspecting the schools, but had made up his report from the school returns. In reply, the then Superintendent informed the Council that the schools would be shortly inspected, and that the inspector up to that time had received no salary. In the Gazette of the 6th June it was notified that the schools would, weather permitting, be inspected the ensuing week, but this had not been done, and he (Mr F.) did not believe the schools Jiad been inspected since December, 1867. The member for Olive had spoken of the immense amount of papers that the Inspector had to go through; but this work was quite unnecessary, and to make pretence to the Council in his report that he had done something for his money. How could he testify to the satisfactory progress the children had made when he only had the information on the authority of the schoolmasters % Again, there was the matter ol the Provincial Auditor's salary. Last year the Council considered that that gentleman's salary was exorbitant under the altered circumstances of the Province, and it was recommended by the finance committe that our representatives in the Assembly should apply to the Government for its reduction. This was quite understood and agreed to by both our late and present Superintendents; but having got the estimates through the Council they did nothing in the matter. Before voting money it was necessary that a statement of Provincial finances should be laid before the Council, otherwise they would vote more money than they would receive, and the Superintendent would be able to make a selection in favor of his own pet schemes —a position very degrading to the Counci 1 , and one which, if members had proper selfrespect, they would not submit to. Mr Buchanan objected to the Council going into committee of supply so hastily, and without due consideration. He did not like the Government seeking ratification for new expenditure when they well knew that the box was empty and the bottom out. They had received a message from the Superintendent, enclosing a report by the Treasurer on the state of the Provincial finan-|

ces; which no doubt gave a truthful account of the expenditure, but did not contain any allusion to receipts. He considered that at present the state of the revenue was the main subject for consideration. [Mr B. then examined last year's estimate of revenue in detail, objecting to nfany of the items as worthless.] From this examination he was led to believe that out of the estimated £II,OOO, £5,000, or nearly one-half, was moonshine. Under these circumstances he was sorry go see the Council forced into committee of supply before next session. In the report of the finance committee, laid on the table on the 19th May last, it was stated that the unexpended balance of the loan was £9,349 19s. Deducting from this the amount voted by the Council for the purchase of part of the Forty-mile Bush, the hailing places for stock, &c, there should be a balance of £4,875. He supposed that the Government had this balance left—still, he had his doubts, and would like to know it for a fact. He hoped the Council would no longer sanction the loose system which had hitherto been carried on. It might do very well when their coffers were full, and no one cared, but if a change did not at once take place, there was but one prospect—that of heavy direct taxation or total collapse. We need not now expect the General Government to take us over—they had quite enough on their hands without bothering themselves with our municipal affairs. We would have to provide for ourselves by taxation. He did not think the Government had taken a correct course in mo\ing this vote; he saw no advantage which could arise from it, and would move as an amendment that the words "this day week " be added to the motion. [The remainder of this day's proceedings unavoidably d ferred.}