PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

Hawke's Bay Times, Volume 14, Issue 722, 30 September 1869, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL

MONDAY, SEPT. 27, 1869. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, The Speaker, and the following members : —Messrs. Rhodes, Locke, Tanner, Buchanan, Garlyon, Sutton, A'Deane, Kennedy, Lambert, Parsons, and "Weston. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. MESSAGES FI-1011 THE SUPERINTENDENT. The Speaker stated that the following messuages had been leceived from his Honor the Superintendent : Message No. 1. —Informing: the Council that a writ was issued for the return of a member to represent Porangahau, returnable on Saturday, Oct. 2. The Superintendent has offered himself for reelection and trusts to be enabled to take his seat in the Council on Saturday. Message No. 2, —Transmitting a report from Mr Donald lloss, the Provincial Engineer, upon the state of the roads in the Province. The report states that the lowest tender ibr keeping the road in repair from llaveiock to the southern boundary of the Province, for the present year, exceeds by £4OO the sum provided by the estimates, and that tender has been accepted. The Superintendent will ask the Council to make the necessary provision for this service. The toll-gate fund will (the Surveyor thinks) be sufficient to keep the town roads in repair, and the roads to Havelock and Puketapu. The road from Waipawa to Hampden has been completed. No new works are in progress. Message No. 3, —Suggesting the necessity of considering the education question and the present Education Acts. The Superintendent finds from the Treasurer that the amount realized last year from the Education rate was insufficient to meet the charges as provided by the Education Act, and that a similar deficiency is expected this year., lie recommends the reference of the question to a select committee with a view to amending tha existing law. The following is a statement of the Educational; Fund for the year ending June 30, 1869 ; Grant in aid of schools—- £ s d Amount collected on account of education rates 815 16 8 j Amount of rent Educational reserves 128 12 9 I 9-M 9 5 I Amount expended on account of Schools 994 3 10 I Amounts still unpaid 32 2 8 1 1028 6 6 I Deficiency 81 17 1 1 Mr Buchanan said that these doll cuments being of great importance I he would move that they be printed! Agreed to* THE POSITION OF THE COUNCIL. A question was raised by Mm Weston, as to whether the Councm were competent to transact busineM in the absence of a Superintended and Executive. An irregular una-"; desultory discussion ensued, wkidH lasted till 5 p.m., at which time, am oording to the rules of the CouncM the business of the day is to be piR ceeded with. It was ulimately decided to fan ward an address to the SuperintjMjj dent, requesting him to appoint m Executive Council. EXECUTIVE ACTS REPEAL. -i Mr Buchanan moved the s?coH| reading of the Executive Acts law ". peal Bill. The subject was one would require very few words fijfc him, for he had several times be™*; [brought it before the Council, »/■

each of which occasions it had been fully discussed, and its principles very generally approved. The only reason urged against it by those who opposed it was a desire to consult the individual wishes of our late Superintendent, and this reason alone had prevented the assent of the Council being given to the bill. He now purposed introducing the bill in pre cisely the same shape as he had done last session. It did not interfere in any shape or in any way with the two salaried officers appointed by the Executive Act--the Provincial Solicitor and the Provincial Treasurer ; all it proposed doing was to abolish the Executive. Wishing to i>ay nothing indhidually against the gentlemen who composed that body, he could only repeat that it was a wrong act to select four gentlemen to form a compact phalanx to overage and control the rest of the Council—a quarter of their number, who, whatever their individual views, were banded together to * ote alike, and v. r bo, with the influence at their command, could always securea majority. Indeed, with this influenc, it would have been strange if they could not command an overwhelming majority —such a one as had often made the minority look an exceedingly (small one —small in number, though great in the consciousness that the \iews and opinions on which they divided would be ultimately found correct. Although the principle of an Executive Act had been initiated in Hawke's Bay, first of all the new Prounoes, yet we were the laggards in its abolition. The other small provinces which had taken it up had been beforehand with us in sweeping it away. Southland and Marlborough had abolished 'heir Executives, and he believed Canterbury, a far larger and more important Province than . this, seemed about to follow their example. He had always strongly ' advocated the expediency of conforming strictly to the New Provinces \ Act, and not going beyond what was ( laid down there tor our guidance. ( That Act had a flexibility which ' adapted it to each small community without the tinkering of municipal bills; there was a system provided in it ouite enough to carry out the public service cheaply and efficiently if we would only set our shoulders firmly to the wheel. The evil hi ' tlievto had been that these small Councils had looked upon themselves ; as huge bodies representing a great community, and had copied all the parliamentary forms of large and , old-established institutions. He had ' on various occasions sought to have these forms carried out, and had . obeved them himself, not because he thought they were suitable for the Council, but because they were laid down for the guidance of members, who, while they had them, should abide by them.

The debate was then, on the motion of Mr Tanner, adjourned, and the Council adjourned to 7 p.m. The Council resumed at 7 p.m., but there not being a quorum, it was again adjourned to 3p.m. on the following day. TUESDAY, SEPT. 28, 1869. The Council met at 3 p.m. Present, -The Speaker, and the following me rubers : Messrs. A'Deane, Buchanan, Carlyon, Ferard, Lambert, Parsons, Rhodes, Sutton, Tanner, mid Vv eston The minutes of last meeting were rend and confirmed. MESSAGES FROM THE SUPERINTENDENT. The Speaker read the following messages from his Honor the Superintendent : Message No. 4.—Stating that taking into consideration the request of the Council, and the Eict that until the Executive Repeal Act received the auction of tlic Government an Executive Council VRia necessary, his Honor hid been pleased to appoint to that oihee Messrs Joseph Rhodes, AlexMidur KeniieJy, and John A'Deane. Message No. ~>, —The Superintendent transmits for iht; information of the Council a Report of the Fruvineial Treasurer upon the state of the Provincial Accounts.

Message jN'o. G The Superintendent forwards! for the 'information of the Council, a Tetter ad-1 wessed by him as Government Agent, to the hon.i jhe Colonial Secretary, with the reply thereto. The letters will fully explain the subject they refer to, aud the decision the General Government have jome to in regard to the question. The Superintendent would recommend the Council to propose to the General Government to advance the Produce sufficient money to complete the purchase of lh e Block now under negotiation, and upon which a considerable expenditure has been incurred jnncb. will otherwise be lost. This the General government might probably be induced to do. *ne Council might also consider the propriety of

authorizing: the Commissioners to treat with an English Company for the settlement of the Block. Mi A'Deane took his seat on the Government benches.

On the motion of Mr Febard, messages Nos. 5 and 6 were ordered to be printed. ME. LOCKE'S KESIG-XATION. Col. Lambert asked the Speaker if he had received any notification of the resignation of Mr Locke, one of the town members. He put this question as he wished co give notice for next sitting day of the motions standing in that gentleman's name. The Speaker, in reply, said that as yet he had not received any intimation of the fact alluded to. Mr Rhodes was in a position to state that Mr Locke had resigned A notification of the fact would ap pear in the next number of the Gazette, and a new writ had already been issued. OKAXT P.)B COMMON SCnOOL. Mr Tanner, pursuant to notice, moved— That the Superintendent he requested to give a piece of land for the erection of a Common School in Napier. Colonel Lambert seconded the motion. Mr Ferard was sorry to say that as a member for the town he was not so well informed on this subject as he should be; but he believed there were already schools in Napier conducted on the Common School system. A grunt of land had already been given for a Grammar School, which he thought might be conducted on that plan. As matters stood, he did not know whether there was a Common School site or not.

Mr Tanner, in explanation, said that there was no site for a Common School, and his motion was intended to repair the deficiency. The want of a Common School was generally felt, and consequently the want of a site on which to build it. Mr Ferard would draw attention to the law, by which the inhabitants must subscribe £4O before asking the Government for any grant. He must confess that he had not heard of the necessity for a Common School. He believed all the schools in town were open to all denominations on equal terms.

Mr Tanner said that a sum of money had been proposed to be set aside to build a Common School from the fund* of the School Trust. MOO had been subscribed by the inhabitants for this purpose. Mr Weston believed that .£4OO was once voted for a Grammar School on certain conditions which were never complied with. Mr Tanner said thai had nothing to do with the present question. Mr Buchanan thought the terms of the motion were too indefinite. There were numerous educational reserves in the town; perhaps one of the.-e were wanted. If so it should be stated in the motion, which, if amended in this manner, would no doubt meet with the acceptance of the Council.

Mr Tanner rose again in explanation. Motions were not generally of an explanatory character. There were no educational reserves in the town suitable for the purpose. Mr Carlyon : 1 rise to order. My colleague has already spoken several times.

Mr Tanner : I will not be dictated toby my colleague, who does not know bow to behave himself; I wish he would take his seat. I was explaining that, none of the reserves beingsuitable for the purpose, we should ask the Superintendent to grant a site.

Colonel Lambert agreed with the member for Napier-(Mr Ferard) that more information should have been given. He was glad to see the desire of the member for Te Ante for the education of the people, and had no doubt the grant would be made, but did not wish the Council to do it with their eyes shut. Mr Carlyox hoped the Council would do no such thing as his colleague proposed. For the last two .sessions he had raised his voice against leasing the reserves, which he considered a great perversion of the Act, and had tried to get a proviso inser+ed to prevent it, foreseeing that they would be leased for long periods for a nominal sum, and that when they were wanted they could not be obtained. The result had

proved him correct. The reserves, which formed a large portion oi Scinde Island, had been let at a nominal sum, and now there was no site for a Common School. Of course it was for the benefit of the town to get as much as it could out of the public purse; but we would have to treat all alike, and would have to deal with similar application from Waipawa, Hampden, and a host of other places, As there was neither common sense nor justice in the request, he hoped it would not be granted. Mr Ferard moved the adjournment of the debate to Tuesday next, which would perhaps give the Superintendent an opportunity of being present. None of his constituents had spoken to him on the subject, and he really did not know that another school was required.

Mr Sutton seconded the motion. He was not aware, any more than his colleague, that this subject would be brought forward. He should like to know the piece of land which was wanted, and also to know the opinions of some of his constituents on the question. Mr Rhodes would cordially support the adjournment to Tuesday—all the more readily because he believed the Council would then be no longer in session. [Laughter.] He should not, however, object to '■■he motion if it could be shown that it would be of any benefit, and that it would be proceeded with to-day.

Mr Tanner did not think much of the reason given by the member for Olive, who appeared desirous of shelving the question altoget her— Mr Rhodes : No. I «aid T would support the motion if I could see it to be beneficial, and if the subject was gone into at once. Mr Tanner said the members of the School Trust did not consider the present schools sufficient, or they would not have raised £4OO for a new one. The members for the town seemed ignorant that the question was coming on to-day, but if they had paid proper attention to the business of the Council on Saturday, they would have heard the notice given. The member for Olive should have been the last to object, for it was not long since that he (Mr T.) supported that gentleman's motion for a grant of land to his constituents ac Clive for exactly the same reasons as in this case —that the reserves were not sufficiently central for the purpose. He would move as an amendment that the debate be adjourned till tomorrow. Mr Buchanan objected that it was not competent for a member to move an amendment to his own motion. Col. Lambert would support the adjournment, as the town members knew nothing of the mattet. Mr Tanner : It is their own fault

Mr Ferard said that the town members had not been consulted on the subject, and they could not forget that they had to consult the interests of the Province as well as those of their own constituents. If the Council chose to carry this he would not object, but it did seem sciange that a fresh grant should be applied for because it paid better to lease the rich educational endowments than to apply them to the purpose of school sites, It was also an important question whether a common school would not upset those at present existing through the active exertions of the different denominations. Mr Ferard's amendment was then carried on a division. KECOVEIiY OF IMMIOEATION DUES. Mr Parsons, pursuant to notice, asked the Government — Whether any measures have been taken for the recovery of money owing by individuals for assisted immigration, in accordance with a vote of this Council on 21st May last.

Mr Rhodes, in reply, stated that steps bad been taken by the Government to carry out the vote. A man was arrested, an expense of several pounds incurred, which resulted in the man taking one his debt in jail. After being three months in her Majesty's charge he went his way. Mr Parsons thought this was scarcely satisfactory— Mr Rhodes; We considered it very unsatisfactory. Mr Parsons thought it was scarcely satisfactory that the Government

should only have prosecuted a single individual when there was over £4OOO owing by different immigrants. He did not think the vote of the Council had been carried out.

EETUEN 03? IMMIGRATION DUES. Mr Parsons, pursuant to notice, moved— For a return of all money due on account of assisted immigration, showing the dates when the same became due, the names of the parties owing the same, and the amounts due by each individual; also, a return of the money received by the Government on account of assisted immigration, since 31st May last. Mr Rhodes said the returns would be duly laid on the table. Mr Parsons said a similar order was passed by the Council last year, but the returns were never furnished by the Government. PAPAKTJRA BLOCK. Mr Parsons, pursuant to notice, moved— For a return of all money due to the Provincial Government by owners and tenants of the Papakura Block, with the names of parties, and the dates when payments were due ; and also the return to show what steps have been taken to carry out the resolution of the Provincial Council of 21st May last. Mr Rhodes said that the Provincial Treasurer had been instructed to prepare the return, which would be duly laid on the table. PKIVILEGE.

Mr Ferard raised a question of privilege. The next notice on the paper was in the name ot a member for the town, who had resigned, and called for. a detailed return of educational reserves in the Province. The Council had ordered this return last session, but the Government had never fulfilled that order. He considered this an infringement of the privileges of the Council.

Mr Weston : What use is there in bringing this up now there has been a change of Government 1 Mr Buchanan said this was only what might have been expected. The Council had been in the habit of submitting their acts, proceedings, and everything else to Mr M'Lean, whose private wishes were allowed to over-rule their decisions—in fact, as had been very properly remarked by a member for the i own, they had allowed him the position of a dictator, to whose fiat everything must be submitted. What more did they want? Tf their orders were not complied with, it was because Mr M'Lean did not choose to do so. He saw no use nor propriety in holding the present Government responsible for Mr M'Lean's actions—their shoulders must indeed be Atlantean to bear them. In fact he questioned whether half-a-dozen Atlases could bear the sins of that gentleman's administration. The Council had simply to ask for the Returns again, and if they did not get them from the present Government, he would join the Council in devising means to obtain the fulfilment of their orders.

Mr Tanner could see nothing to show that this neglect was a matter of intention on the part of the lateSuperintendent. Jf the returns could not be found, let the Council ash the present Government for new ones.

Mr Ferard did not think a discussion would have arisen on this question, but that he would have saved the time of the Council by the course he took. He would give notice of Mi Locke's motion for next sit-ting-day. ACTS OF LAST SESSION. Mr Ferard asked the Government — When the Acts passed last session will be printed and in the hands of members. Mr Rhodes said the Acts had been printed, and he did not know why they had not been circulated. They would be placed in the hands of the members without delay. DISALLOWANCE OF RATIFICATION ACT. Mr Ferard asked— What course the Government propose to take in consequence of the disallowance uf the Ratification of Loan Expenditure Act, 18G9.

Mr A'Deane in reply stated thai notice had that day been given to bring in an Act similar to the preceding one, and endeavors would be made to obtain the allowance of the act. I3TEBEST ON THE LOAN. Mr FERARD asked the Government — Whether any satisfactory arrangement has been made with the General Government as to the

11 charges made against this Province for interest upon the loan before the principal was actually available for expenditure by the Province. —He had not looked into the particular?, but the arrangement had been .such that the Province had been paying interest upon money before it came into its hands. Mr Rhodes said that the accounts embodied interest from the time the different portions of the loan were raised. Mr Ferard said he was not raising this objection for the first time. It was considered by the finance committee that the charges were unfair and unreasonable, and an understanding was arrived at with our representatives in the Assembly that they would seek to obtain a readjustment of the claims for interest. He wished to know if anything of this kind had been done. Mr Rhodes was not aware that any action had been taken on the subject since last session. SALARY OF PROVINCIAL ATJLITOE. Mr Ferard asked the Government— Whether the salary of the Provincial Auditor has been reduced in accordance with the recommendation of this Council.

—By the Audit Act it was provided that the salary of the Provincial Auditor .should be paid quite independently of the appropriations of the Council, thus placing it out of their power to educe it when they wished to do eo. Last session they decided that a salary of <£loo would be sufficient for that officer, and recommended that steps should be taken to make the reduction. He found it had been the custom to neglect the recommendations of the Council, but he would not allow it to pass without drawing the attention of the members to it.

Mr Rhodes believed the question was answered at the time. He heard the member for Clive state that whatever resolution the Council might pass would not affect the salary of the Auditor, which was fixed by the General Government. He knew of no steps having been taken since. THE WELLINGTON DEBT. Mr Ferard asked the Government— Whether any action has been taken by the arbitrators as to the apportionment of the debt between Wellington and Hawke's Bay, and whether it is probable that the matter will be settled before the departure of Mr Dillon Bell for England. Mr Rhodes said no action had yet been taken, but the matter would be fully gone into between Mr Ormond and Mr Dillon Bell before the latter gentleman's departure for England. THE SCHOOL INSPEOTOBSHIP. Mr Ferard asked the Government—

Whether the Inspector of Schools actually inspected the schools of the Province subsequently to his report of the 12th May, 1869, and whether lie has been paid any salary in. respect of his services.

—lt appeared last session that the Inspector of Schools had only inspected one or two in the town and vicinity, and that his report had been compiled from the school returns ; and it was stated at the time that he would not receive his salary until the other schools had been inspected. His object in putting this question was to ascertain if the Inspector had since done any work for his money.

Mr Ehodes said it was a mistake to suppose that the Inspector's only duties consisted merely in examining and reporting upon the schools. He had much work to do in connection with his office, of which he might instance the immense number of papers to be gone through regarding the capitation money. The Inspector had not visited the distant schools, and had received his salary. IMMIGEANTS' PEOMISSOEY NOTES. Mr Ferard withdrew the following question standing in his name, as a very similar one by Mr Parsons had been already answered— What steps have been taken to recover immigrants' overdue promissory notes. CATTLE TRESPASS AMENDMENT. Mr Parsons moved— For leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Cattle Trespass Act. Leave granted; bill brought in ; read a first time; ordered to be printed; and second reading fixed for next day.

[We are compelled to defer the remainder of this day's proceedings.]