PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2292, 6 August 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

[PBBSfI ASSOCIATION TELBGBAM.J

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Fbiday, August 5. The Council met at 2 30 p.m. The Dentists Act, 1880, Amendment Bill (Bfon. G. M. Waterhouse), and the Timaru Mechanics’ Institute Bill (from the Lower House), were read a first time. On tho motion of the Hon. M. Holmes, a committee was appointed to confer with tho Lower House committee in the enquiry as to steam communication with England. The Otago University Reserves Vesting Bill was read a second time, after a short debate, by 17 votes to 8. The Port Chalmers Cemetery Bill and the Friendly Societies Bill were read a third time and passed. The Public Domains Bill was passed through committee, and all other business was postponed. Among a number of committee reports laid on the table was one condemning strongly the action of several departments in not furnishing a return to the order of the Council, and recommending the action of the officers concerned to the notice of the Government, The Conncil rose at 5 p.m. HOUSE OP EE PEESBN T ATI VES. Friday, August 5. The House met at 2-80 p.m. PETITION. Sir G.Grkt presented apetitionfromfifty-one Eoad Boards north of Auckland, praying that tho Counties Act 1876 be abolished, and that the Eating Act of 1876 ba amended so as to give Boards the option of rating upon acreage or valuation of land, and that the land be answerable for the rates duo thereon up to £lO. notice or MOTION. The Hon. Major Atkinson gave notice to ask leave to introduce a Bill fer the endowment of Paiea Harbor Board. QUESTIONS. Eeplying to Mr fyke, '1 he Hon. T. Dick said that Government did intend giving effect to the recommendation contained in tho report of the late Inspector of Lunatic Asylums that resident medical snperintendents be appointed to the institutions. Replying to Mr DeLautour, Tba Hon. W. Johnston said that arrangements were being made for the establishment of a system of exchange by means of the money order system between New Zealand and America.

Replying to Mr Te Wheoro, The Hon. W. Eolleston said that steps were being taken to carry out the recommendation of the Native affairs committee on the petition of Harete Tamohana Te Waharoa. Replying to Mr Finn, as to whether the Minister of Jnatice is aware that the warden and B.M. at Eumara, on the West Oast of the Middle Island opens his Court there for the despatch of business at the hoar of eight o’clock at night; that on the 18th ultimo, without any emergency, he took the evidence of five or six young girls, the majority of them not exceeding fifteen years of ago, between such hour and ten minutes past four o’clock the following morning ; that such Resident Magistrate either threatened to issue or else prepared a warrant, at about three o’clock in the morning of the 19th nit., for the arrest of a young lady named Mary Jane Marlow, who failed to bo present before him at that hour to give evidence in the case than being tried. The Hon. T. Dick said that the statements set forth in the question were most extraordinary, and since it had been brought under his notice he had communicated with the Magistrate, demanding from him an explanation. Until that had been made he would refrain from making further comment. Replying to Mr Ballance, The Hon. W. Eollkston said that his personal opinion was that the only effective means for inquiring into the claims and grievances of discharged soldiers and volunteers was by Royal Commission. He had not yet conferred with his colleagues, but would do so on an early occasion.

Replying to Mr Swanson, The Hon. J. Hall said that Government had no correspondence or information whatever relative to the change of programme in the movements of the Flying Squadron, whereby it would not, as intended, visit Auckland. He believed the change was entirely the result of tresh orders from Home. If there was any correspondence not yet produced he would lay it on the table. In the meantime the Governor sympathised greatly with the disappointment occasioned by this change. Replying to Mr Hutchison, The Hon. T. Dick said that the printers in the Government printing office, in lieu of the 10 per cent, reduction, and to place them more nearly on a par with the trade, worked fortyfive hours per week, whereas the trade outside worked forty-eight. Under these circumstances Government would not interfere with the existing arrangements. Replying to Mr McDonald, The Hon. W. Eolleston said that Government was in commnnicatien with the Chief Judge relative to the bringing down of an Amended Native Land Act, 1873, but as yet he could not say what action would be taken. Replying to Mr Weston, The Hon. W. Johnston said that inquiries would be made as to the necessity existing for the establishment of a Telegraph Office and Post Office Savings Bank at Barrytown, West Coast.

Replying to Mr Wakefield, The Hon. J. Hall said that a copy of the Commission and Royal instructions to Sir A. Gordon, as Governor of New Zealand, would be laid on the table. ADDITIONAL SITTING DAT, On the motion of the Hon. J. Hall, it was agreed, for the remainder of the session, to meet for the despatch of Government business on Monday. NEW BILL. The Town Districts Bill was introduced by the Hon. T. Dick and read a first time. GAMING AND LOTTERIES BILL. The Gaming and Lotteries Bill was recommitted for the further consideration of clause 15, penalty for exhibiting placards or advertising betting houses. The Hon. T. Dick proposed to add “ those penalties shall not apply to newspapers not published in New Zealand, sent there for sale or exhibition.” The amendment was negatived. Mr bTEwART moved, as a further amendment, ‘‘that the publisher bo not liable if the advertisement be inserted without negligence.” This was negatived on the voices. A verbal amendment was made, and on the question being put that the clause as amended do pass, the House divided. Ayes, 22 ; noes, 38. The clause was struck out, and the Bill reported with amendment. The Hon. T. Dick moved that the amendments be adopted. Mr Seddon moved that the Bill bo recommitted for further consideration of the clausa. —Negatived. The amendments were agreed to, and on the motion for the third reading the House divid'd Ayes, 40; noes, 20. Following is the division list: — Ayes—Messrs Atkinson, Ballance, Birron, Beotham, Bowen, Brown, Bryce, Colbeck, Be Lautour. Dick, Fulton (teller), Gisborne, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Hall, Hursthouse, Hutchison, Johnston, Kelly, McLean, Montgomery, Murray, Oliver, Pitt, Richardson, Rolleaton, Saunders, Shephard, Speight, Stevens, Stewart, Swanson, Tawhia, Thomson, Tole, Trimble, Turnbull, Wallis, Wright. Noes —Messrs Allwright, Andrews, J. B. Fisher (Buller), J". T. Fisher (Heathcote), George, Hamlin, Jones, Levistam, McCaughan, McDonald, Pyke, Beeves, Seddon, Seymour, Shanks, Sheehan, Shrimski, fctudholme, Te Wheoro, Wakefield, Pairs —For—Messrs Russell, Sutton. Against —Messrs Finn, Moss. Mr Sheehan said that the Bill would not repress the evils it professed to deal with. The Bill was too complete and tried too much. 13e was quite sura that when it came into operation it would be found unworkable. The Bill was then read a third time and passed. DISEASED CATTLE BILL. The House went into committee on the Diseased Cattle Bill, which was reported without amendment. The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. DISEASED CATTLE BILL.

The Diseased Cattle Bill was read a third time and passed. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. On the motion for going into Committee of Supply, Mr Saundees said that he rose to speak as a disappointed and angry man. Hs expected something very different to the estimates now brought down. He spoke as the representative of n deluded and overtaxed country and not as an attacker of any Government past or present, 'there were two features in connection with Government ho had always remarked. The one was to allow the civil servants to take the npper hand of them, and the other was to take too much liberty with borrowed money after they had once embarked in borrowing it. It was unjust to abandon the reduction on salaries, especially on the higher salaries. They might be reduced at least 25 per cent. He did not expect much support in that endeavor, but great reductions were still possible. The Legislative department might bo reduced £1765 without impairing the efficiency of the department. Then again he thought that £ll9l proposed for gardeners and laborers on the Government domain might be struck out. Justice might have the two first salaries of £875 done away with, and the efficiency of tho department would be increased instead of impaired if tho department was placed under the charge of the

Solicitor-General. Redactions of that kind were absolutely necessary; it was their bonnden duty to strike off unnecesa iry expenditure in every possible direction. Ihe Treasurer could think of no other means for providing funds for local ■ bodies than fresh borrowing that showed the urgent necessity that existed for economy. But for the borrowing course upon which they had entered he believed that two-thirds of the Customs revenue might have been devoted to the requirements of the local bodies. The borrowing mania bad also taken hold of the electors, and it was time that they should bo taught that they could five no longer by borrowing, 'here was no otateatnanship and no honesty in continuing to bolster up the colony with borrowed money. The information that half tho property tax would be taken off would bo, to doubt, popular, [but, instead of doing that, it should bo doubled, be would also impose an income tax and restore the tea and sugar duties. ‘O (ihtcvor was necessary in that line should be dor.e,ratt;er than go on and lead tho country to believe that, while in reality we were Lying on borrowed money, we were in a position to throw np half of the property tax. He counselled them to arrange that whatever th<-y might give tho local bodies should be given without £ rther interference on the part of the House. Instead of raising a property tax, he was in favor of the suggests n made by Mr Montgomery, that the local bodies should be left to levy taxation such as they might .require themselves, raising what they had to spend, and that case they would use the utmost care. If the estimates were not reduced, be intended challenging almost every item as it came up i Mr 'lhomson agreed in the remarks of the previous speaker. He dissented from the proposition, however, that the property tax should be doubled. He might, however, have gone further in hia proposea reductions than ha had done. He never thought any reductions should have been made in salaries under .£2OO. It was tbe highly paid officers’ salaries that should be reduced, and reduced permanently. It appeared to him that there were a good many officers in the service getting higher salaries than they were entitled to. The House was placed at a disadvantage this yearwith respect to finance. Tbe financial year expired on March 31st, and they did not meet until the middle of June. They were in session a mou'h before the financial statement came down, and then they had to wait another month before they got the estimates. Then, again, the public works estimates were not yet down. The whole financial proposals were put before! them in such a peculiar way that they could not discuss them properly, and they had no chance of taking a comprehensive view of the finances of the colony. Not less than four months of the current financial year had passed, and to discuss the finances at the present time was like locking the door after the horse had been stolen. To meet deficiencies deficiency bills to the extent of £1,000,000 had been issued. It turned out that the actual deficiency was short of £1,000,000 by some £38,C00, and the latter amount bad been treated us consolidated revenue. That was not a fair way oi stating the accounts, and it was apt to mislead. What they wanted was a return showing wherein savings had been made. These savings had, it was said, been made by the amalgamation of offices, end now it was proposed io reinstate the salaries remaining to their former amount. Last year a sum of £19,C00 had been paid as compensation to officers whoso services were dispensed with. He saw nothing put down for compensation this year, yet he could hardly suppose that all these compensation claims had been disposed of. He challenged the accuracy of a statement made by the Treasurer to his constituents regarding the weekly expenditure of this Government as compared with that of their predecessors. The weekly expenditure of this Government during the last quarter of the financial year had been £112,000, which was considerably more than that stated by tbe Treasurer. He looked upon the import and export (trade of the colony as being satisfactory, and to that extent he viewed matters in a more hopeful light than the previous speaker had done. The increase in exports was represented by wheat and grain, Ac., and that itself was a hopeful feature. The explanation given by tho Government as to the delay in bringing down tbe estimates was not at all satisfactory. He complained that as they stood they were defective, inasmuch as no provision was made for the local bodies. He gathered from that that it was meant to depart from the proposal made by the Government re public works. Sir G. Gket was certain that no good canid be done in committee of supply with the estimates before them. They could not digest the proposals, bat he thought they should appoint & committee, sav of twelve members, to fully inquire into the subject and make such a report as might be desirable. In making this suggestion he protested that be bad no intention of moving an adverse vote upon the Government. Ho saw no probability of any radical change except by tbe means he proposed. Snch a committee would be able to reduce the expenditure, as well as purify and improve the service. He would suggest that a Select Committee be appointed for the purpose ha had named To show that he had no party purpose, he would move that seven gentlemen be named from the Government side of the House and five from his side to give effect to that proposal. _ He would move —“ That a Sele't Committee be appointed to examine the estimates and report upon what consolidations of departments, changes or reductions in public expenditure can bo made in order to reduce it to the lowest possible amount consistent with due efficiency ; such committee to consist of the Hon. Major Atkinson, Messrs Ballance, Hall, Hutchison, Johnston, Macandrew, McLean, Montgomery, Swanson, Saunders, Reader Wood, and the mover; to report in a week. ” The Hon. J. Slali. said that the mover ought to have given notice of such an important motion, so that they might have thought the matter out. The proposal was revolutionary, and he had doubts as to whether it was really seriously meant. Practically the proposition was that the estimates should be relegated to a committee to do in a week what the Government had failed to do in the year. Such a thing was absurd, and in keeping with a statement made on a previous occasion, viz., that in half an hour he would be able to re-model tbe estimates, and effect a saving of £IOO,OOO. Such reckless and inconsiderateproceeding warranted him in cautioning the House against accepting Sir G. Grey as an authority on the subject, more especially as during his term of office he had increased instead of diminishing the amount of the estimates. It was not only in Wellington that their expenditure took place, it was going on all over the colony, and it was perfectly monstrous to say that a remodelling could be made in tho way proposed. They had experienced men going all round making careful inquiries into the civil service, with a view to its reduction, and the report was now under consideration. It was not possible to consider Sir G. Grey’s proposal in a seri -us light. The proposal simply said that twelve gentlemen could be got to do offhand what Ministers, with all their knowledge of their departments, had failed to do. They did not say that their estimates were perfect; they were only another step in the direction this Government had proposed for itself to pursue. Mr Swanson also spoke of the impracticability of the proposal. No committee could do the work in the time named. He thought the financial position of the colony sufficiently serious to demand the utmost economy, more than was shown in these estimates, and he would be glad to see tho Government take them back and recast them

Mr Xuhkbull spoke in support of the motion for the appointment of a committee. They would not have to go into every item on the estimates, but simply to see what reduction coaid be made on certain classes. That to a certain extent answered the objection put forward by the Premier. Ho thought it would have been better if they had the Civil Service Commissioners’ report before them in considering the estimates. The course proposed would save the House a great deal of time, and he felt that it was not in any sense of the word a vote of want of confidence. Mr BAHiSCE complained that the speech made by Mr Saunders had been altogether ignored by the Premier. He thought that unfair, as there was much in his remarks worthy of consideration. Ho argued that until the Civil Service Commissioners’ report was before them they were not in a fair condition to deal with the estimates. He believed that important reductions could still be made. He complained that no reduction had been made on large salaries, and little had been done in the way of amalgamation of offices. He instanced Taranaki. There the salaries amounted to £SOOO. He was quite sure that a committee like the one proposed would reduce the amount by .£2OOO without in the slightest degree detracting from the efficiency of the service. Mr Westos argued that the Government had prepared its estimates in pursuance of the policy it proposed to follow. If these estimates were thrown broadcast upon a committee they would cut and carve at them without the slightest knowledge or regard tc that policy. The proposal seemed to him absolutely impossible. It would bo tantamount to relieving Ministers from all responsibility. They would be nothing more than a number of head clerks to do a certain work belonging to the administration. He condemned the sweeping accusations made by Mr Saunders against the civil service._ They were told over and over again that the civil service was too highly paid. What was the fact? Is was often said to be a well known fact that the Under Secretaries governed the colony. If those men had the ability to govern the colony surely £BOO per annum was not too much for tint work. Hoolso reviewed the judges, and argued that they were not too well paid. The telegraphic department was similarly reviewed. That department demands secrecy and good faith, and yet these man had £.lO and £2OO per annum. That st .ts of matters was calculated to drive thes men into dishonesty and crime. He also contended that th police force were not properl treated in the matter of pay. Mr Sheehan asked why twelve men shut up in a room could not revise these estimates as well as eighty men shut up in that room. They

■wanted the report of the Civil Service Commissioners. Theylhad paid for it, and it was but light that they should have it. _ They had had a moving pictnre about highly-paid servants being turned away after many years’ service, with no alternative but to go to the workhouse. Hii experience was that they were not iu the habit of going to the workhouse but went to the Bank, and realised on their savings. That was his experience of the civil servants when discharged. He wished to see the thing discussed on a broad basis. He believed that it would yet come up by force of its own right. If this was a p *.rty motion he would vote for it, but if it was v.ot a party motion ho would not, as he thought it was too late in the sees! n. If it was not to bo a party question, having their grievances let them withdraw the motion and get into committee, and reserve farther criticism for some future occasion. Ur Vpeight contended that the argument of Mr We Ton re civil servants being musters of the colony was not well founded. The complaint was that they were masters of the colony, bnt that was merely a complaint and what was wanted was not that they should be paid for the position thus usurped, that they should be kept in tbe'r proper positions and bo paid accordingly. He was convinced that they could not in committee reduce these estimates to any appreciable extent, and in that conviction he was borne out by the opinions of old and experienced members. The only way to do it was by motion before going into committee. He regretted that Mr Saunders had not made some practical suggestion. What was wanted was a bold resolution to effect somo reduction, and, having done so, to carry it out independent altogether of party consideration. Such being the case, he would gladly vote for the motion for the appointment of a committee to < J o the work he had alluded to. Mr Hurst thought that the Government deserved well at the hands of the country for the retrenchment they had already achieved. He disputed the assertions made that the civil servants were too highly paid. He thought they might very well go through the estimates as they were framed, aud if, after explanations had been asked and given, savings conld be made then let them make them. He would suggest that the departments on which the estimates were lased shon’d belaid before Parliament at the beginning of each session. They would afford the House valuable assistance in considering the whole subject. He would vote against the motion. Mr Saunders did not think the proposed Appointment of a committee could possimy achieve the purpose aimed at. The course he would propose was similar to the one taken last year, and which he understood was to be permanent. He complained that Government had not taken that course without leaving the House to do it. The resolution he would like to see passed would be something to the effect that there was nothing in the circumstances of the coleny to warrant the restoration of the 10 per cent.; that the reduction be permanent, or until, at all events, the finance of the colony was in a much more flourishing state, and the House had reconsidered its decision. He accepted the restoration of the 10 per cent, as on indication that the Government did not intend to follow out its retrenchment policy. Mr Montgomery blamed the Government for having made any reply to the remarks made by Mr Saunders. He agreed that it would be impossible for the committee to do in the time left at their disposal the work proposed. He therefore thought Sir G. Grey should withdraw his amendment. It was meant as a party vote. He did not think that the state of the colony warranted the reiteration of the 10 per cent. It meant increased taxation, and as such the people of the colony had a right to be considered before the civil servants. If Mr Saunders’ proposal could he given effect to without disturbing the Government he would prefer seeing it done. He criticised the estimates, stating that much of the so-called saving, when examined into, was not saving at all. Mr Qibbornb could not see how the Government conld avoid making this proposal a party question. He conld not see that the committee conld possibly do the work proposed _ to be assigned them. They had had commissions at work for months, and yet they had not succeeded in overtaking the whole of the work. He gave the Government credit for what they had already dona in the way of retrenchment. Mr J. T. Fi shkr thought that the civil -service had increased in a greater proportion than was necessary. The time had now come when that state of matters will have to bo put an end to. An ordinary mercantile firm would carry on the government of the country at a third of the expense paid. They might depend npon it that great retrenchment would still be insisted on by the people of the colony, who would not much longer submit to the taxation necessary to maintain the present expanditure. Mr Thompson agreed in the opinion that at this stage of the session it would be impossible for a committee to go into the question exhaustively. Still he believed in the principle of this matter being dealt with by a committee. It was done by many of the countries in Europe. The first work of the session should ha to place the financial proposals before them. If that was done, a committee might very properly be appointed to revise the same. Mr Moss acknowledged that it was impossible to reduce the estimates in committee. If the proposals as made were pressed, then the course to be pursued was the same as that followed lost year. Let the House say that they must be reduced. They had the fact before them that they had a population of not more than 500,000, and they were asked to pay over .£3,000,000 for government. The machine had outgrown all reasonable proportions. That was evident from the fact that they had to send two members of the civil service all over the colony to ascertain how the machine could be put into more reasonable dimensions. He was surprised to find two men who could not possibly know anything abont railway management inquiring into it with a view of effecting reforms. He hoped that the time was not far distant when public opinion would force them to begin their reductions at home, and compel them to reduce the Legislative Department. That done the reductions of the other departments would soon follow. Mr Andrews said that Mr Saunders had an unfortunate way of speaking one way and voting another. After the remarks he had made his duty undoubtedly was to vote for the amendment. The committee proposed was a fair and reasonable one. He denied that the Government had made the reductions to which it laid claim. Looking at the estimate he conld not help remarking that while one man got -£3OO another discharging similar dnties and holding a similar position only got .£IOO. The Ministry he believed had not had time to look into these matters, hence the disparity. He was satisfied that the Government had_ not the opportunity for making the readjustments that were necessary. They had no apparent system to work npon. He concluded by stating that he would vote for the amendment. Mr Levistam said that some years ago when the colony was in a very flourishing state, an advance of 10 per sent, was paid to the civil servants. That being the case, it was only fair that now the state of the colony was depressed they should be reduced. He would oppose the amendment. Sir G. Grey’s amendment was then pat and negatived. PERSONAL. On the motion for going into supply, Mr J. T. Fisher called attention to a report in the “ Timaru Herald,” attributing to him a certain statement derogatory to the Judges. He had never spoken on the snbject_ at all or in the no confidence debate at which it was alleged he had spoken. Mr J. B. Fisher said that ho was interested in the report, as a letter in the subsequent issue stated that it was not Mr J. T. Fisher, the member for Heathcote, but J. B. Fisher, the member for Buller, who had spoken so of the Judges. He stigmatised the correspondent in question as a base perverter of the truth, and went on to point out inaccuracies in the report entirely altering the tenor of his remarks. Ho conld not imagine a greater tissue of falsehoods than the statements of the correspondent in question. He hod conferred with the leaders of his party, and they had advised him not to bring it up as a breach of privilege, as in 1876 a similar question had been taken, and tho same correspondent on that occasion had crawled on his stomach before the House, end made an abject apology for his slanders. It was neither necessary nor desirable that such an exhibition shonld bo repeated, and he conld treat the slander with contempt. THE ESTIMATES. The House went into Committee of Supply. Class 6 —Postal and Telegraph—PostmasterGeneral’s office, £6703 2s 6d. Mr Saunders said that this was one of the few departments that had been well and economically worked. The heads of tho department were very good men in their way. The item was passed. Chief officers and sub-officers, £ 101,448 Oa 6d. Mr Murray pointed out a discrepancy between the salaries of the postmasters in Auckland and Dnnedin. The Hon. W. Johnston explained that tho latter had been transferred from a country office, and on his transference got a handsome nereaae.

Mr Sheehan said that this department was notoriously underpaid. They could dispense with many departments, but this was one which could not be dispensed with. It kept the colony together, and its officers had to do duty when others were at liberty to go their own road. He would like the Ministry to say that some better arrangements will be made. Ho bore testimony to the fact that they retained their integrity despite the fact that they were underpaid. They maintained strict socresy and were always attentive and obliging. This was what might be called the pcor-honse of the service, and ho did hope something would bo done towards a readjustment of matters. Messrs Shhimski. Hirst. Moss, Mueeat, Hubsthouse, Gisborne, Brown, and other members drew attention to cases of individual hardship in the reduction on charges made. The Hon. W. Johnston gave explanations. The discussion was still proceeding at 1.30.