PARLIAMENTARY.

Globe, Volume XXIII, Issue 2280, 23 July 1881, Page 3

PARLIAMENTARY.

Obese association thleqbame.l LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. ThUBSDAY, JUDY 21. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. The principal business was the carrying of a motion by the Hon. Dr. Menzies in favor of Bible reading in schools by 15 to 12. The following is the division list:— For Dr. Menzies’ motion : —Messrs Baillie, Miller, Pharazyn, Scotland, Aoland, Holmes, Wilson, Peter, Bobinson, Nurse, Beynolds, Martin, Brett, Mantell, Menzies. Against:—Messrs Pollen, Williams, Fraser, Chamberlain, Dignan, Wood, Lahmann, Buckley, G. Johnston, Peacock, Whitaker, Hart. The Banks and Bankers Act Amendment Bill was again committed and further amended, one amendment being that it is not to come into operation till January, 1882, The Kogulation of Elections Bill was passed through committee, on amendment hy the Hon. W. H. Beynolds to make voting compulsory under penalty of being struck off the roll being rejected. The Council rose at 5 p m. HOUSE OF BEPEESENTATIVE3. Thubsday, Judy 21. The House mot at 2.30 p.m. NOTICE or MOTION. Sir W. Fox gave notice that he would move in the direction of prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquors in Parhament buddings. NO CONFIDENCE DEBATE. After the questions had been replied to, the No-confidence debate was resumed by Mr Sutton, who admitted that Mr Wood's speech had been an attractive one, hut said that it did not touch on the real question at issue. The only practical suggestion it contained was that the Government shov'd allocate £2OO,CCD for opening up the Crown* lands of the North Island. If they could carry on their works properly without borrowing, ho would bo favor of doing so, but ho much doubted it. Mr Saunders’ speech was next criticised and condemned. The re-establishment of the provinces was impracticable. Ho believed that the time was not far distant when the provinces would not only be abolished, but their boundaries wiped out. Eeferring to Mr Ormond, ho said that ho liked an honest opponent, but he could not characterise Mr Ormond as such. Whatever the result might be, the action taken by him would delay the business of the country. Bedistribution of seats was fully expected, and now in consesoquonce of this action it must be delayed for another Parliament. The real object of the motion of the mover was hatred of the property tax. Failing to get rid of the tax ho was determined to got rid of the Ministry. Presuming ( that he succeeded in driving them to the i country, then De could tell them that they would return to Parliament stronger than ever. Captain Bussed!, said that if the amendment was carried, the effect would be to bring >nto office a class of man whoso avowed policy was a return to provincialism. Ho discussed at groat length the utter impossibility of Mr Ormond ever working in unison with the men i with whom he was leagued. He thought that : the Counties Act provided all that was really ncoessavy. It gave counties power to merge i into each other, and to do other things for extending the 1 '” powers. Had the New Provinces Act of 1859 got fair play he believed that it would have wrought out the county scheme long ago on a most beneficial principle, though the Act, however, as it stood now wee perfectly good for all necessary purposes. Mr Seymoub reoognhed in the Government proposal an attempt to give some finality in the assistance to be given to local bodies towards the construction of local works. The 20 per cent, land fund subsidy was intended to open up and settle Crown lands. It had not done so, though bodies had appropriated the money for making roads throughout the settled districts. He concurred in the opinion that had the New Provinces Act not been repealed county government would have been established throughout the colony on a more satisfactory footing than they found it at the present moment. He did not see what more machinery was wanted for local government than they had at present. Some feature of the elective element might judiciously be imnorted into the constitution of the Waste Lands Boards. Mr Taiaboa spoke against the Government, and condemned adversely the proposal to rate Native lands. The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. HO CONFIDENCE DEBATE. The debate was resumed by Mr Taiaboa, who complained that the Government had acted most unfairly towards the Maori prisoners, and also towards himself. In support of the latter ho complained that in 1879 he resigned his scat in the House of Eopresentatives. He was then a Native assessor, and while acting as such was called to the Upper House. The Government ware aware of the facts, and then they turned round and deprived him of his seat in virtue c:f the Disqualification Act. Ho blamed them for having placed him in a false poaition out of personal spite. It was a similar indifforenoo to Maori interests that had prompted the Government to put forward a Bill of this kind. He intimated his intention of voting for the amendment. Mr Bunny announced bis intention of voting against the amendment. The action of the Government during the present session had strengthened his purpose of supporting them. Frequent changes of Government wore not beneficial to the colony. They had had the effect of handing over the Government to the permanent heads of departments. The Government had done good cervico ; n reducing expenses; they had put their financial affairs on a satisfactory footing, and, in his opinion, they would nob be wise in turning this Government out, and putting in they could not say who. Ho had strongly opposed abolition, and Mr Ormond had strongly supported it, bub he felt that they could not now go back to provincialism. They had got to make the best of abolition. The statement that the present system of local government was unsatisfactory was no now thing. It had been unsatisfactory ovor since abolition took place, and the only way for thorn to remedy matters was to search out the defects in the present Act. The (mover of the amendment had not propounded any more' satisfactory remedy for the evils existing. Ho thought that the proposals of the Government would eventually tend to remedy these evils. What need was there for them to go to (the country now. They would, in the natural course of events, go to the country soon enough for some of them. But lot them first finish the work they had got to do, and then go to the country at the proper time. I

Mr Weston said that the question raised by the amendment was not as respected the pilot conduct of the Government, but as to the future. What they hud to do was to sey whether the proposals were satisfactory or not. Mr Ormond, in moving this amendment, showed in hio speech good taste as well as good sense, Thera could bo no doubt but that his aim was to reintroduce provincialism, although ho was careful not to propound any policy. In that course he did right; it was not hia place to propose a policy. Ho utterly disagreed with the proposals of the Government. They were unworkable, and not fur the good of the country. They did not go far enough in certain respects, and they appeared to go too far in other respects. He advised the Government to gracefully withdraw their proposals, so us to admit of a more acceptable scheme being brought forward. The proposal to allow the trust funds of the colony to be made use of for local purposes was, to his mind, contrary to all propriety. It was utterly wrong in principle. If the local bodies were unable to repay the money, then the colony would have to do it. If they trifled with their trust property in that way (hey were bound to damage the public credit. Tho proposed constitution of the Board of Works ho next criticised, and declared it to be an effort to bolster up Centralism. Again, there was no security for tho promised money being paid to local bodies. Tho result of the proposed rate on Crown lands would be that the good land would be eaten up to pay for tho land of bad quality. He read a telegram from the Grey County Council, expressing an adverse opinion to the Government proposals, which he went on to show were utterly unsuited to that part of tho country. To rate Native lands, as was proposed was woong. It virtually meant taking the land from them. In effect, they were depriving thorn of their rights, and yet

they expected these people to observe the law. There was certainly not much to go to the country upon in the'issues now raised. The Government proposals were merely a scheme for raising money, and not one which should involve a change of Government, far less justify the Governor in granting a dissolution. If the Bills passed this year they would probably be repealed next year by the new Parliament. They should allow their Parliament to die out and take the opinion of the public on the question at the approaching elections. That would be the proper course to pursue. He next referred to Sir G. Grey’s Local Government Bill, which he also criticised adversely. It was more visionary and wild than the proposals of the Government. It was separation in disguise. The country was not prepared to receive such a scheme. The provisions proposed for the administration of law and justice alone wore sufficient to justify the rejection of the proposal. He referred to the remarks made by Sir G. Grey about the Judges. It was an attack of the meanest kind, cruel, and utterly unfounded. Ho denied that there were the slightest grounds for any charge against the Bench. Mr Maeandrew had said to him that there were plenty. He wanted to know where they were to be found. If Sir G. Grey’s policy were to bo adopted, the evil of the proposals before them would be greatly intensified. He approved of a limited provincialism—call it County Councils or whatever they liked. The duties devolving on them as a central Legislature were far too great. He had only been a member four weeks, but ho had seen enough to prove that it was quite impossible to get through the work devolving on them. Was not that a state of things which required remedy ? In the Government offices they iound the same state of things. During the recess Ministers were out all over the country, and during the session they found them knowing little or nothing about the details of administration. That simply meant that their work wee to a great extent left to the tender mercies of irresponsible persons and officials. If they could devise some means for remedying a state of things like this they would do well. Mr Saunders’ scheme was one which might bo moulded into shape. That proposal was a modified form of provincialism. Ho knew of his own knowledge that it was not until the county government was brought to the door of the West Coast that that district began in real earnest todevelope itself. Taking his own district, the Grey Valley, it was taxed heavily in a variety of ways. No Minister ever wont to see the real state of matters, and ascertain what was wanted for the place. If they had an administration in their midst the case would be otherwise, and much would be done for the welfare and development of the place. There was no reason why waste lands should not be dealt with by the localities themselves. The local knowledge thus brought to bear on the subject would be of immense service. He repeated his belief in the possibility of Mr Saunders’ scheme being brought into a good practical system. He went on to deprecate the idea of a dissolution, saying that it would involve a cost of at least £25,000, and otherwise inconvenience the general public. The various sections of the House would have an opportunity in the natural course of events to propound their various schemes to the country, and there could be no sound reason advanced for an immediate dissolution. The desire should be to make this Parliament oa useful as possible, and allow it to expire in the ordinary course of events. Ho would vote against the amendments, and at the same time ho would vote against the Bills brought down by the Government,

Sir G. Geey said, in reference to the statemeet made by the previous speaker, that there was a judge who, being supposed to have a strong predilection for a central government, had recently told a jury that the double form of government had been instrumental in causing a miscarriage of justice. If any other judge pursued the same line of conduct, he would repeat what he had already said. The Hon, J. Haxi, reprobated Sir G. Grey for the attack he had made, and the explanation just given of the attack upon the Judge made the matter florae. The terms of the amendment left the Government no alternative but to accept it as a vote of no-confidence. The appearance of the lobbies also indicated that this was a no-confidence motion. If Mr Ormond did not mean to unseat the Government, it Was plain enough that the Opposition meant to do it under his auspices. He denied that there was any discontent with the existing local government institutions, or any demand for a new form. The only real complaint was a want of means to carry out their work. What was wanted was assistance to work out existing institutions, and not to alter them. The charge made by Mr Ormond that the session had been wasted by the Government had been completely answered in the fact that, although they had only had twelve sitting days for Government business, they had passed measures of the highest importance to the social well-being of the country. They had been charged with having pursued a“ do nothing policy.” The truth was that an absence of pecuniary resources had compelled them to put the drag on public works. The Treasury had been low, and they were prevented from going into the borrowing market. But yet within the last twelve months two millions had been spentjon public works. As to the disproportionate expenditure in Taranaki and Hawke’s Bay, the facts of the case were :—ln Taranaki the expenditure since the public works policy commenced was £817.000, and in Hawke’s Bay, to which Mr Ormond belonged, it had been £604,000. He defended the Government against the charge of not having brought down the Redistribution Bill at the commencement of the session, by saying that it was impossible to have done so until they had the census returns. The local Boards of various kinds had been complained of as! too numerous, but when looked into it would be found that they distributed the labor of local administration amongst the people. Sir G. Grey proposed a most radical change. He was going to remove the fetters imposed by the constitution—his own constitution. The proposal about making the Judges elective had boon already answered by Mr Weston, and he would not further refer to that point. He charged Sir G. Grey with having tampered with his speech in “Hansard.” If Sir G. Grey’s proposals were carried out it appeared to him that onehalf of the people of tho colony would be employed in governing tho other half. He criticised clause 28 of Sir G. Grey’s Bill, giving it as an example of his financial fallacies. In Mr Saunders’ speech there was a great deal with which he agreed. He knew that tho Road Boards had done good work. He could not think that provincialism without legislation could, however, possibly cure any ills under which they suffered. Would Timaru or Canterbury, Oamaru and Southland, or Otago, bo content to have their affairs administered from their respective provincial centres He had no reason to be ashamed of the work done by the provinces, still provincialism had had ito day. Let them by all means go to the country with MrSheehan’s proposal for the restoration of the provinces. Mr Wood knew better than to talk about resorting ,to provincialism. Ho knew that that horse would not carry a rider far. He denied tho assertion made by Mr Wood that this local government question was not

thought of until the demand for it arose in tho House. Tho fact was that the Bills before tho House were practically before the House last year, and the Local Public Works Bill was mentioned in tho Governor’s speech. Mr Wood was opposed to borrowing, and wao not satisfied with the manner in which taey spent the money, but still he was prepared to spend it himself in his own way. There were sixty-three count! s in the colony, and that did not look as if there was any deficiency of local government. Then they had tho Road Boards, and of the two he was of opinion that tcey were the moot serviceable. Any difficulty in tha Road Board administration consequent on tho changes brought about by abolition would have long since been provided for but for the conduct of these members who desired to return to provincialism. It was those gentlemen who had prevented local Government being made more efficient, and had twice prevented a Boad Board Bill passing. Government proposed to decentralise as far as possible, but they did not wish to soo tho colony cut up into a number of feeble states, unable to do good themselves, and preventing the colony from doing any good either. They proposed to extend and improve the County and Road Board system. They proposed to delegate many powers to the counties at present vested in tho Governor, and to give them reasonable pecuniary assistance for opening out their districts. He then reviewed their proposals for main and district road purposes. They did not say that their scheme was perfect ; they would be glad of any assistance to make these proposals more perfect when in committee. Mr Ormond had said ho was anxious that these proposals should be

I considered by the country. Had that been all ho required, he ought tc hare framed his amendment in a less hostile form, so as to delay the proposals and relegate them for consideration to the country. If the amendment were carried, they could not expect that a Government not having a majority in the House would attempt to pass a Bedistribution of Bopresontation Bill, nor would they attempt to do so either. Mr Ormond would have to take their place, and attempt to pass redistribution, or else they must go to the country without it. If he was not prepared to take the responsibility of his own act, then they would have to go to the country without redistribution, and he was sure that the people would resent that procedure. Mr Ormond had acted wrongly in moving this amendment without communicating with the Government. He had heretofore bean a supporter of theirs, despite what Mr Ormond said to the contrary. Ho could find nothing in the speech to bis constituents, or anywhere else, to lead to the belief that Mr Ormond had broken with his party. Mr Ormond’s conduct in deserting them without giving them warning was a proceeding that he was sure would bo resented by the country. The essence of party government was that the members of a party should trust each other. Mr Ormond’s conduct struck at the root of party government, and] deserved severe condemnation. Whatever might bo the result of the division, he and his colleagues on those Benches could look back to their two years’ administration of the Government with feelings of satisfaction, and with the warmest gratitude for the generous support given by their party. Many members had been good enough to give them credit for what they had achieved, but it was the hearty support of the party which had enabled them to attain whatever good results might have attended their administration.

Sir G. Gbey said that here was a Government deserving pity. They had lived from hand to mouth without any policy, and they were now getting to the end of their tether. Thej. deserved pity and assistance. Ho denied that he and his friends had attempted to restore provincialism. They never thought of anything so insane. They knew that a nation oould not go back. What they proposed was to take a step in advance. His purpose had been grossly misrepresented. Mr Weston had not read and considered his Bill, or else he was lamentably deficient in ears. He did not often approve of the conduct of the Government, hut ho did approve of their having removed a man so ignorant of law from the judicial bench. The Premier also misrepresented him. His comments wore mean and paltry for the ruler of a country. His complaint was that his Bill made use of the words

“Presidents” and “bylaws.” The idea was to set up modest and inexpensive institutions, and yet the Premier of this co'onv made these trifling phrases subject matter for laughter. As to the term “ President,” it was used by the Provincial Council of Otago ton years ago. They had been told by the Government that they were in favour of the county system with increased powers, and speaker after speaker had said that the system worked well. So then he answered that they—the people—must work. Their life was necessity, and they must work there. Ho for one complained against that system, as it meant to deprive them of what were their just rights. It was a system that gave as many as fortyfive voteo to one man, while others had only one vote. That was the cause of bis hatred of the system. It was a system devised by men who desired to save their ill-gotten wealth. He stood there a wronged man ; the whole population stood forth wronged men at the hands of such an inferior and unjust system. If men did not feel degraded under such a system then they were unworthy of the name of men. The Premier bad been misleading the Honse and the country. He believed it would be found that the system he bad propounded was right. The whole policy of the Government was that they would not transmit to the people certain powers. That was wrong, and it was their duty to give them all those powers. Each district was capable of exercising all the powers that the House possessed. The Premier had said that the people of Now Zealand had no right to govern themselves, but had a right to be well governed. Not to govern, that was what he had said, and wag saying now. The contest was between those who had been wronged and the wrong doers. Thot was the question to be decided by this motion. Those who desired that the people should have their rights would vote for the amendment. The Government and their supporters now shook in their shoes. Their time was at hand, and there was still hope for New Zealand. They had allowed circumstances to control and fix their policy, instead of moulding these circumstances. He saw one man on the Government benches who had not out off the people’s rights as established by provincialism, Mr Weston bad used most improper language, and grossly misrepresented what he had said. So had the Premier. Such things ought not to have been done. The terms used by Mr Weston were intolerable. The whole plan of the Government in reference to local government was wrong. The people would, at least, insist on having their rights given to them. What harm could there be in leaving districts to govern themselves. That was all he had asked for them. Set up a form of government to get them together, and let them work their own constitution. Were they unworthy of being entrusted with'these powers ? On the contrary, it would be well to give them these powers. What harm was there in suggesting that they should have power to establish their own Courts ? Mr Weston knew well that there would be no opening under such a system for him. In Great Britain many places had powers such as he asked for, and many corporations elected their cwu recorders. Was that House alone able to choose a Judge ? He would prefer to bo tried in one of the Courts he spoke of rather than in a Court presided over by a Judge elected by that House. He had been told that all the best of the Crown lands had gone, consequently they could not have them, us ho proposed for endowment. There were great tracts of such lands which might yet be saved for the purposes he proposed. In every way injustice had been done to them. The real question was had the time come when certain great families wore to have powers which no one else were to enjoy. Mr Bunny had told them that in giving their vote on this question they had to look to the out. side creditors. That was not the case. What they had to do was to look to the inside of the colony. Thera they sat on the Government benches the representatives of the outside creditor. Let them now have men seated there who would not represent the outside creditor, but who look inside the colony. Let them have Mr Bunny’s vote, as ho told them ho intended to give it to them. They would have none of it. The House had been misled about the Representation Bill. Ho counselled them not to be afraid of the threats used. They were able to frame a much better Bill than

the present Government, and if they wore sent to the country without that Bill then the fault would not be theirs. It would be the fault of those gentlemen who forced it on them instead of resigning office. That was the view that would be taken, and he asked them not to be afraid, as the electors would be sure to return them again. He called upon them to dismiss all such fears from their minds, and vote for what was undoubtedly the right. Again he told them that it was their duty to turn out men who wore governed by circumstances, and who could not govern circumstances. The Treasurer had said that the property tax was paid cheerfully. The fact was that the Act was fenced about by penalties that mode men frightened. That was the cheerful mood in which they paid that tax. There was a hidden mystery about this properly tax which ought to be unearthed. Publicity should bo given to what each person paid under it. He believed that they had power to open all places and professions to every inhabitant and child of Now Zealand They could provide prizes as incentives to effort. Such rewards were open in port under provincial institutions, and under the appropriations of the Government they would be opened again. Ha referred to the Bill he had introduced for opening the legal profession. That measure was the joint effort of himself and Mr Tolo. They had been told that this and other Bills were simply duo to the fact that this was the last session of Parliament. He admitted such was the case. Under such circumstances ho knew he would find members more pliable. That was one of the great advantages arising from triennial Parliaments. Once every three years an opportunity of this kind would occur, and ho for one would bo careful to take advantage of it to get several measures passed that would not bo likely to pass under any other circumstances. He referred eloquently to Sir G. M. O’Rorke’s career to show the incentive offered to merit and ability under free institutions. He begged those who loved their

I country 1o fellow him into the lobby, in order Ito give New Zealand free institutions and If deliver it from the restraints which now pressed bo heavily upon it. Mr Saunders said that when h« rose on Tuesday night he little thought ho was taking part in a movement that would bring about this important crisis to the country. A complaint had been made about Superintendents 1 of provinces and their tails, and the fact wan that private members could combine as closely as ever to force matters as they wanted them. For instance, the Government could not allot the portfolio of Public Works as they desired, simply because it would give offence to the Province of Otago unless an Otago member was appointed. While there was a danger of the two members for the Thames and the member for Port Chalmers potting upon those benches, ho could not support the amendment. Mr Huesthoush moved the adjournment of the debate, and the House rose at 12.50. LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Friday, July 22. The Council met at 2.30 p.m. Beplying to the Hon. G. R. Johnson, The Hon. P. Whitakee said he hoped that either himself or the Statute Revision Commission would bring in a Bill to amend the law as to taking oaths and affirmations, but it was hardly likely to be done this session. The Hon. F. Whitaker promised the Hon. W. Nurse that he would enquire into the case of an accident on the Invercargill railway on Siturday last. On the Hon. P. Buckley’s motion, a committee wss appointed to enquire why a return ordered had only been finished in part after a year’s delay. Several members spoke strongly of the laxity of departmental officers in preparing returns. The Bank and Bankers Act Amendment Bill and the Regulation of Elections Bill were read a third time and passed. The Adoption of Children Bill (Hoa. G. M. Waterhouse) was road a second time. The Licensing Bill, after a short debate, was read a second time, an amendment to adjourn the debate till Tuesday being negatived by 16 to 7. Tho Drainage Bill was partly got through committee, and progress reported. The Wellington Queen's Wharf Sale Bill and the Inspection of Machinery Bill were parsed through committee. The Council rose at 5 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Fbiday, July 22. Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. NOTICE OP MOTION. Mr Beeves gave notice that he would move that 2s 6d per ton duty be imposed on ceal imported into the colony. PETITION. Mr Fulton presented a petition, signed, by 900 residents of Dunedin, approving of tho Lotteries and Gaming Bill. Mr Mubeay gave notice that ho would ask leave to introduce a Bill to Regulate the Duration of ParFamants, to corns into force on the expiry of tho present Parliament. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Weston, The Hon. J. Hall said that tho Stillwater and Nelson Creek section of the Greymouth Railway would cost £6OOO, and Government had not sufficient money out of the balance of the Public Works Loan to undertake tho works at present. Beplying to Mr Bussell, Tho Hon. W. Johnston said that Sir J. Goode’s report on the Wairoa Harbor had not been received. Replying to Mr Swanson, The Hon. J. Hall said that intimation had been received that the Plying Squadron would leave Sydney on the 23rd. They would probably perform their quarantine at sea, and would not land in Auckland until the week after next. In any case they would not be allowed to laud till tho usual twelve days had expired. They would remain five days. Arrangements had been made for conveying tho Princes to Tauranga by the Hinomoa, en route to the Hot Springe. If they were willing to stay in Government House, Auckland, during their stay, arrangements to that effect would be made. NO CONFIDENCE DEBATE. Mr Grass resumed tbs debate on the no confidence motion. He announced his intention of supporting the Government. Ho considered that the Road Boards were useful institutions, which had in the past performed a deal of useful work. Provision was necessary for enabling the local bodies to discharge their functions more efficiently, and this the Government proposed to make. He considered that tho House was competent to deal with every legitimate claim for redress that came before it. Mr Habbis called attention to the state of tho House, a quorum not being present. The requisite number having been brought in Mr Gibbs resumed, reiterating his intention of voting for the Government, Mr Ekid said that tho proposals made by the Government were in many respects suitable to tho district ha represented. He was not opposed to those proposals, but he was opposed to the Government itself, as they had not done their duty in the past. He had no confidence that they would carry out what they proposed. He agreed in the opinion that the country had got local government enough, and if they went to the country he imagined that the county and Road Beards system would be approved of. Of the various schemes before them on local government, he gave tho preference to the scheme propounded by Mr Saunders. Tho Mines Department had not given tho satisfaction expected. The Minister had far too many duties to discharge the work of the department efficiently. The West Coast Goldfields had only had a visit from one Minister since tho Government came into office. The Industries Commission had made certain recommendations in connection with those goldfields, and these had not received attention from the Government. What they wanted on the West Coast was assistance to construct water-races, open up tracks, offer rewards for fresh discoveries, reduce the fees on miners’ rights from 20s to 10s, eud in various wavs promote tho interests of tho districts. The only concession they had got was that of a diamond drill, the charge made being of a prohibitory nature. In Victoria they got tho use of a drill at a cost sufficient to pay a reasonable per centage on its price. A duty should be put on wool similar to that on gold. If not ousted under tho present motion, he suggested that a Royal Commission should bo appointed to enquire into the moot efficient means for developing tho West Coast goldfields. Ho concurred in the opinion that claims for redress should receive more consideration than they got. The administration of tho wardens’ courts was another subject requiring fuller consideration. Redistribution ought to have been brought down early in tho session. He insisted on the great importance of the goldfields interest to New Zealand and its claim to support. Mr Sheimski also avowed his intention of voting against tho Government. He charged them with having neglected the interests of his district. He was also opposed to the proposals brought down. He charged Ministers with dangling the vacant portfolio before tho eyes of the members for tho purpose of receiving support. Ho criticised the constitution of the local works board, contending that it was arranged so as to enable Government to exercise and secure support. They had been told that if the no confidence motion was adopted, redistribution would not pass. He could tell them that, whether the motion passed or not, redistribution would not pass. Tho proposals under that head were most unfair to Opposition members. Ho instanced his own case. Government had taken a disaffected portion of the district of their friend at Waikouaiti and tacked it on to his. Then again, ho complained of partiality in carrying out retrenchment. Mr Hubbthouse criticised tho remarks made by the previous speakers, talking it out till the 5.30 adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. NO CONFIDENCE DEBATE.

Mr HUE9TUOUBK resumed the debate. He criticised Mr Wood at length, saying that he had ability and prestige enough to make him a political leader, whereas hejhad by his unstable conduct simply dragged constitutional Government through tho mire. Ho combatted the assertion that a plentiful supply of cheap money was not evidence of material prosperity. It showed that colonial investmenta were looked on as being good enough to attract foreign capital. They had been told that business premises in this city were to a large extent deserted as further evidence of the stagnation said to prevail. The fact vraa that they had too much of the storekeeping clement in their midst. Men were simply

r preying on the skirts of society. What they 1 wanted was an industrial reproductive eomr mnnity, settlers in the strict sense of the word, and under the auspices of such a policy i they could well afford to dispense with many ; more trading establishments in their towns, and ; cities. A fall in the rate of wages had likewise been referred to as further evidence of stagnation. The fact was that wages in this colony were far too high, and commercial pursuits would never flourish properly until wages were even lower than they had fallen to. The Sills before the House would do away with the unseemly scramble for money constantly going on in that House. The true issue before the House was a concrete form of local administration on ore side, and, on the other hand, no administration at all. That wee the position of affairs as between Mr Ormond and the Government. If the Government resigned and he consented to taco office, what would the result be? It would not b* him, but Sir G. Grey who would form the Government, and then, in that case, Mr Ormond would be bound to rotiro from each a party. They could not possibly work together. They only found themselves banded together by accident, and not in respect of any unity of sentiment and opinion. Referring to liberal measures, he said that if his party would allow him, he would introduce a Bill to-morrow and repeal triennial Parliaments, and he would be bound 1 to carry it. What they wanted for local government was the maximum amount of funds with the minimum amount of unproductive expenditure. They did not require the dual form of government. They had either to sweep away the counties or the Road Boards, and he thought the RoadBoards the most useful. The ex-suporinten-dents bo considered mischievous men, and thought they should bo disqualified from occupying seats in that Honse. Mr Saunders was a case in point. Ho did not agree with anybody; nobody agreed with him, and he questioned very much if he could oven agree with himself. Mr Macandrew was another political problem. Sir G. Grey, Mr Ormond and others were referred to in the same category, after which he announced hie intention of voting for the Government. Mr Gisboeste said that the issue had assumed more importance than the subject matter of the original motion. It embraced the whole policy of the Government. Local self-government permeated every view of the constitution. Ha dealt at some length with the early state of the question as it existed in this colony. Ho agreed in the opinion that local government had to be looked at in relation to funds and in relation to its powers. Between Provincial Legislatures and the General Assembly a perpetual feud existed in respect of both of these. Another bone of contention was the land fund. This gave rise to jealousy on the part of the North, which had practically speaking no land fund, and the South, which had a large fund accruing from that source. This jealousy was, in his opinion, the main cause of abolition. The great mistake was not to have improved provincialism. Instead of abolishing the provinces the provinces were destroyed, sad the county system, with the Road Boards retained, was introduced. Between these two bodies a constant conflict had been going on. Subsidies were provided for their maintenance. These were found to work unfairly, the rich counties getting the largest share of the available money. That was the state of things they had to face. The remedy proposed he would deal with, first as regards the question of money, and second that of power. He agreed that the proposal to rate Crown lands and to some extent Native lands, was an improvement on the dieting state of things. He totally disagreed, however, with the method proposed for distributing the funds. It was most expensive and cumbersome. The proposal to give the Board salaries and exempt its members from the Disqualification Act was demoralising to the House. He did not see why boroughs should not have the privilege of availing themselves of this fund the same as counties and Road Boards. Then, as soon as it was known that the money was available, the applications would pour in, and the rich districts would carry away the available money, leaving .nothing for the poorer Boards. The proposal was too indefinite and otherwise wanting in finality. Then it was proposed to give local bodies facilities for concentration and delegation. That was not what was wanted. They did not want those bodies to always be under the control in that way of this House. He defended the course pursued in this matter by Mr Ormond. The speech he made during the recess was fair warning to the Government that he had loft them, and he had as much right to more a no confidence motion as any member of the Opposition. The proposals had been damned by the Government supporters themselves with faint praise. Mr Wakefield had said that they did not go far enough. The fact that the Government had done well in other respects was no satisfaction to the districts which were suffering from want of a proper system of local government. If the amendment was defeated, they would have the miserable spectacle of another session passing without anything being done in this direction; it would be a barren session, When they went to the country, all they would be able to say was that they had been forced by the Opposition to effect a reduction of 10 per cent, in salaries, &c. They held out as a threat that it this amendment passed, redistribution would not pass. He would ask why it was not passed long ago. They could have passed it in 1879. It was not necessary to secure mathematical accuracy by waiting for the census returns. If the amendment was defeated, nothing whatever would bo gained, for legislation this session would be a blank. Ti ey had no right to assume that Mr Ormond would not accept the responsibility of carrying his amendment and defeating the Government, so that the objection raieed on that score was altogether premature. Tho Government complained that private overtures had not been made to them before this step was taken. Why the fact was that they were accustomed to look to that side of the House for counsel and direction in all they did. While they had been in tho Opposition had provided the measures, but unfortunately the late Government had not left a Local Government Bill in the pigeon holes for their successors to appropriate, as they had appropriated every measure they had carried. Of course there was a limit to this ; they should not try to abuse their good nature. Tho duty of an Opposition was to criticise, not construct. They had to remember tho example of the wise virgins, and retain oil for their own lamps. What he would wish to see was the colony divided into districts, more in number than the old provinces, but less in number than the present counties, tho inhabitants of each of which should electa body possessing exclusive power to legislate and deal'with all local subjects. In Canada that system had been adopted, and the subjects on which they had power to legislate were enumerated. Then an allocation of revenue should be made to provide them with funds. Then ho would leave those districts free to have Road Boards or other local bodies, whichever they chose. In that way, it would relieve the House of a quantity of local work which it was quite unable to undertake in the present state of matters. They were over-burdened with the local business, and the result of this state of things was that, instead of being colonial representatives, they were converted into mere local Parliamentary agents. It was not their fault; it was the fault of the present system. Believing that tho Government proposals tended to perpetuate this stale of things, he would vote against those proposals, and in favor of the amendment. Mr WHYTE said ho did not think the Government proposals altogether perfect, hut notiiing better had been suggested. The carrying of tho amendment would necessitate a dissolution and a second session. The second honorarium might not be unacceptable, but as ho did not think the present Ministry likely to be improved on, he should vote against the amendment. Mr Moss thanked Mr Ormond for having brought this local government question to a cricis. Whether the amendment was lost or carried, it had been brought under the notice of the public, and until the question was satisfactorily answered it would not be aUoTfed to rest. He denied that the present system provided local government in any respect. They gave tho local bodies no power to raise their ow funds; all that they provided for them was tho power of administration, and that alone never could be called a local government system worthy of the name. So long ai this House did not interfere with tho provincial government, so long was the country happy and prosperous. There were ambitious gentlemen in New Zealand, gentlemen who found Taranaki too small for their ambitions. They commenced to interfere with the provinces, and then tho difficulty commenced. The Government, as constituted must bo split up. It was composed of element* which bad all along been opposed to local*

government. That was the reason, and that was the purpose for which he was in Opposition. In 1854, when the population of the colony was 30,000, the provincial governments wore steadily settling the colony, and the central government spent £33,000. It had now lost its character of simplicity In 1860, with a population of 80,000, the cost, was £66,000. In those days the work was done by three members. Since then great accumulation had taken place, until i , had reached the enormous proportions to which it has now attained. In 1863 a Premier fire!, made his appearance; betore that a Colonial Secretary was all that was required. Then came a Commissioner of Customs, Minister of Public Works, Minister of Education, During its early days it was a more Federal Governmoot, and chat was what he hoped it would return to auain. Redistribution was the ca'd that the Government was going to play. They would keep on the debate until they had enticed one or two members to go over to them, and they would then bring down a Redistribution Bill that they knew would nob pass. They would then go to the country, and -say that horrible Opposition prevented us from passing this Bill. His principle of sound local government was, that the local bodies should be alone responsible to the electors, and in no way amenable ■to this House. IE the public works had been entrusted to the provinces they might have had a high rate of interest, but the saving of waste would far more than counterbalance that drawback. One of the crying events of the time was a local tribunal for the redress of grievances. Once a proper system of federal government was restored, as restored it would be, care must bo taken that the local bodies were not undermined in that House as the provinces had been. To guard against this, the number of members of the House should be reduced, and their powers restricted. The Legislative Council should also be made elective, and should be elected by the Ipcal bodies to guard their rights. Mr Harris moved tho adjournment of the debate, and the House rose at midnight until Tuesday.