GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Globe, Volume XXII, Issue 1969, 16 June 1880, Page 3

GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

[PBB PBBSS ASSOCIATION SPECIAL WISE.] 1 LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, June 15. After the presentation of papers and reports and the disposal of some formal business, The Hon. N. Wilson gave notice again to bring up the question of the J.P. roll, by moving that this Council is of opinion that the Government should remove from the commission the names of all insolvents and others unfit to be there. The Hon. Captain FeaSee, in moving for a return, said that the Mines Department was worked very badly, and detailed two fatal accidents, the result of non enforcement of the regulations. The inspectors of mines were given no power to sue breakers of the law, and tho whole question demanded reform. In moving the second reading of the Gaming and Lotteries Bill, The Hon. F. Whitaker gave notice of anew clause prohibiting tho totalisator, except to responsible racing clubs. The Bill was read a second times, v The Council adjourned at 3.5 p.m. HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES, Tuesday, June 15. The House met at 2.30 p.m. Mr Sutton presented a petition from tho Municipal Council of Napier, praying that subsidies might be continued for tho present year. Mr J. B. Fishbb drew the attention of the Government to the fact that the Statutes of the last two sessions had not been gazetted in terms of tho law, and suggested grave doubts whether they were really in force. The Hon. J. Hall replied that ho was much indebted to him for calling attention to the subject, and that it would have the immediate attention of tho Government. QUESTIONS. Replying to Mr Hamlin, Tho Hon. W. Rollkston said that the Government had carried into effect the resolution of the committee agreed to on tho 28&h of November, 1879, in regard to tho salary to be paid to the Chief Judge of the Native Lands Court. Mr DbLautoue asked whether tho Government are aware that Mr R. S. Thompson, the Government interpreter attached to Colonel Roberts’ staff, has been employed by the Press Association and the “New Zealand Times ” newspaper, as a correspondent, while engaged in the Government service. The Hon. J. Bryce replied that it was not necessary for him to qualify his previous answer, since they had received a communication from Mr Gillon, manager of the Press Association, to the effect that Mr Thompson had some time ago ceased to be tho correspondent of the Association, and that he was not in the employment of Government when first engaged as correspondent. He (Mr Bryce) was not aware that Mr Thompson had ever acted as correspondent of the “ New Zealand Times.”

Mr Moss asked whether the Royal Commission on the Civil Service is authorised, among its other duties, to inquire how far tho cost of the service might be reduced, and its efficiency increased, by extending local Government so as to decentralise the administration of the railways and other great departments of tho public service; also, whether the Royal Commissioners are likely to make an interim report in time to enable tho Government to say before the debate on the financial statement to what extent a saving by this or any other means is likely to be effected.

The Hon, J. Hall replied that tho instructions to the Commission had been published, and that he understood the report of tho Commission would be before the House in the course of a week.

Replying to the Hon. W. Gisborne, The Hon. W. Rolleston said that tho Government intended to bring in a Bill this session to legalise the disposal of land at Jackson’s Bay. Replying to Mr George, The Hon. Major Atkinson said that 400 copies of the pamphlet entitled “A Guido to the Property Tax Assessment Act, 1879,” by Charles M. Crombie, Deputy Property Tax Commissioner, had been purchased by the Government for distribution amongst members and for tbe use of the Department. Replying to Mr Fulton, The Hon. R. Oliver said that provision would be made among the public works estimates for the improvement of the Mosgiel Railway Station. Replying to Mr Reeves, Tho Hon. John Hall said the Mr A, J. Burns whose name appears in the correspondence laid before this House relative to importing colliers for the Westport Colliery Company was the same Mr A. J. Burns who was appointed one of tho Commission for Native Industries, and that he (Mr Burns) was a gentleman who had always taken a deep interest in the development of local industries.

Replying to Mr Reeves, The Hon. J. Bryce said that the Government had taken the proclamation from off the block of Native land on tho Bast Coast and in the Poverty Bay district during the present year. Replying to Mr Ireland, The Hon. J. Hall said the Government intended to bring in a Bill to mitigate tho hardship under which hawkers labour with respect to their licenses in connection with County Council fees. Mr Turnbull asked—(l.) Under what authority the Government advanced £40,000, as stated in the Financial Statement to be temporary advances on the debentures of the Waimea Railway Company. (2.) Whether the Government are advised that clause 32 of the Public Works Aet, 1879, gives power to make cash advances to district railways. The Hon. Major Atkinson replied, unde clause 19 of the Public Revenue Act, and with regard to tho second portion of tho question, tho Government had no advice that it had any power to make the advances referred to. Ho went on to say the Government deemed it requisite to make tho advance in question, to prevent the debentures going to the English market, New Zealand being pledged to contract no further loans for a period of three years. Replying to Mr Seddon, Tho Hon. W. Rollbston said that Government had no intention this session to bring in a Bill altering tho constitution of the Waste Lands Boards of the colony by making them elective or partially so. Replying to Mr Whitaker, The Hon. T. Dick said that Government had no objection to lay before this House all correspondence having reference to the classification of wool, and tho provision of a suitable place for the exhibition of samples of tho various brands of wool, which has passed between the Government and Mr Albert Potter, of Hamilton, Waikato. Mr Bowen asked (1) Whether orders have been given for the transmission of correspondence from England to New Zealand not specially addressed at certain specified dates ; (2) who is responsible for the great inconvenience which has lately arisen from tho forwarding of letters and newspapers from London by various routes without regard to the arrangements for through transmission ; (3) whether the Government will take steps to put an end to tho inconvenience as soon as possible. The Hon. J. Hall replied that letters not specially addressed were sent by San Francisco. By that means the postal revenue of the colony was benefited. Recently, however, that practice had been neglected by the London office, but a remonstrance had been cabled on the subject. Tho London office was alone responsible, and another effort would bo made to remedy the mistake.

Replying to Mr J. O. Brown, The Hon. J. Hall said that the Blue Spur post-office was removed in consequence of tho building being used as a public-house. The revenue of tho Waitahuna office amounted to £O7 annually. To open tho new office, which cost £560, taluries to the amount of £l5O would bo required. The service at present was efficiently done for £1 per annum, and tho Government did not propose making any change. Tho correspondence would be produced.

Replying to Mr Ireland, The Hon. T. Dick said that directions had been given to the Registrar for tha Waikari electoral district to supply Roxburgh and places similarly situated, with the view of having their names placed upon tho new electoral rolls.

Replying to Mr Pitt, The Hon. Mr Oliver said that the amounts due to the contractors for work on Jtho Tophouse road, Nelson Provincial District, had been paid. Replying to Dr. Wallis, The Hon. R. Oliver said that most cer-

tainly clause 23 of the general conditions of Government contracts, providing for the payment every fortnight in cash of workmen’s wages, would be enforced. The Government knew of no infringement of this provision, and had their attention been drawn to any such infringement action would certainly have been taken in the matter.

i Dr Wallis asked what they have already done, and what further they intend to do, in order to secure tho land included in the Hot Springs districts at Rotomahana and Rotorua for the benefit of the public. Tho Hon. J. Bbycb said that Government desired to secure this country, but the Natives were opposed to parting with the land. They had done something towards preventing it going into private hands, but he did not flatter himself that tho complete right to the country would be readily acquired by the Government. Replying to Mr Whitaker, The Hon. R. Olivee said that tho vote to increase tho pay of employes of tho Auok-land-Waikato Railway had not been given effect to. Government had not given effect to many similar votes for increases of pay. tub financial debate, Tho Hon. J. Hall said that in consequence of the papers connected with the inscription of the £5,000,000 loan having only been circulated that day, and ns it was necessary that those papers should be studied by members before proceeding with the discussion on the financial proposals, ho proposed to defer that discussion, and instead tho Native Minister would proceed with tho second reading of tho Native Land Sales Bill. Sir G. Grey demurred to the Native Land Sales Bill being taken up until they had the whole of tho proposed Native Lands Legislation before them. Mr Seddon proposed that they should have the local administration measures before discussing the financial proposal. Tho Hon. Major Atkinson said that he had consulted the leader of the Opposition, Mr Maoandrew, as to the postponement of the discussion on the financial proposals, and he agreed that it should be delayed in view of the importance of the papers laid on the table. If, however, that course were objected to, then tho Government would bo prepared to proceed with the debate on the financial proposals. Mr Maoandrew said that ho had been I consulted on the subject, and in view of the j importance of members making themselves acquainted with the contents of the correspondence placed on tho table, he thought a postponement was tho beat course to follow. The Hon. W. Gisborne supported Sir G. Grey’s proposal, and thought the whole Native policy should be before them before they proceeded with the Sales Bill. Tho Hon. J. Bryce said that the policy of the Government was before tho House. Of course they could not tell what course the Legislative Council would adopt with tho measures now before that Chamber. Still that did not affect the fact that the whole Native policy was before the House. regulation of elections bill. Tho motion for going into committee on the Regulation of Elections Bill was then put and carried. In committee, Mr Hutchison moved tho amendment of clause 28, which empowers the returning officer to question the elector as to whether or not ho had already voted in this electoral district. The amendment proposed was that the clause should be made to read, “ have you already voted in this or any other electoral district.” The discussion was interrupted by the 5 30 p.m. adjournment. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.30. Progress was reported on the Regulation of Elections Bill. NATIVE LAND SALES BILL. The Hon. J. Bryce, in moving the second reading of the Native Land Sales Bill, said the law at present was not in a satisfactory condition. The object of the Bill was to simplify these laws. Bach of tho eight Bills brought in embodying the Native policy deal with a different branch of the subject. Hitherto their course on this subject had not been a satisfactory one. They had all along gone on the assumption that their policy with respect to the Natives’ lands must be based on tho treaty of Waitangi. From the time of that until now it had been deemed that the fee simple remained in the Crown. Until 1855 there was no regular machinery provided to ascertain the nature of the title. In 1844 some pressure was brought to bear upon the then Governor. He issued a proclamation enabling private parties to deal in these lands. A few months afterwards he issued a second proclamation reducing the payment from 10s per acre to one penny for tho issue of the Crown grant. The preemptive right was resisted by Sir G. Grey, the succeeding Governor. That right was maintained till 1835, and he believed they would all agree with him in saying that it was a very great pity that that right was not maintained. After that date the right of private persons to purchase these lands was recognised. The next change was in the year 1871, when the public works policy was inaugurated. At that time and subsequently as much as three-quarters of a million were appropriated for the purchase of a landed estate in the North Island. Then commenced a system which had done more than anything to demoralise the Natives ; he meant the purchase of Native lands by agents. These agents scattered money amongst them like dust, and asked them to take rum, and resorted to almost every species of demoralisation. These Government agents did not regard themselves purely as Government agents. They purchased land not only for the Government but also for themselves and their friends. The result was that the Government got the bad land and those parties and their friends the good land. They, as a Government, ;had got tha reward .which tho evil courses resorted to might have led them to expect. In 1876 a Bill was introduced by the then Government which deserved more credit than it got, but it was too complicated. It was introduced but withdrawn. In 1877 another Bill was brought in by the same Government. It went in the direction of tho free trade principle, and although an improvement upon its predecessors in machinery, it too had to be withdrawn. It was withdrawn, as an amendment was accepted by the Government, It was known as the Native Lands Court Bill, and it served one useful purpose, as it indicated the direction in which the country wished legislation in Native land. It indicated that tho House did not wish free trade in Native lands. The Atkinson Government went out, and the Grey Government then came in. One of their objects was to reform this very practice, and he had no hesitation in saying that in this respect the Grey Government was an utter failure. It never attempted to deal with tho matter until a few days before it went out of office. He despaired almost of making the House understand the terrible iniquities perpetrated by tho recent Native Lands Purchase department. He would give them a few examples of these iniquities transacted. Tho advance system had been the groat feature in these transactions, and the particular mode of making these advances was something atrocious. He meant the system of giving orders on storekeepers. In Tauranga alone £II,OOO had passed through one Government agent’s hands in the space of eighteen months. The process of granting these orders was for tha amounts to bo left blank in the vouchers. The agent was supplied with funds by an imprest, and when ho was called upon to account for these sums by the auditor he filled these vouchers up to suit tho occasion. A transaction took place some months ago which induced him to send up and examine matters at Tauranga, and the result was something extraordinary. Tho auditor reported that ho had found that monies charged had never been paid at all, and where it had been paid tho grossest irregularities had taken place. In connection with these payments two items wore specified, one for £3O, and other £l5O, as much as £77 of the latter being spirits and beer consumed at a tangi over the land agent’s brother the late Judge Young. Then again it was stated that tho negotiations with tho Natives were conducted with the utmost irregularity. Ho had already said that they had been guilty of iniquities, but they had received no equivalent for their trouble. When they came to settle tho negotiations connected with these vouchers, on which advances were made, they would most undoubtedly be repudiated, and the Government stands to lose a large amount of moneyAgain, this fund had never been closely scrutinised, and it was most grossly abused. If a i Maori wanted an order to pay his expenses or to get rum it was charged to this fund. The rule was that any questionable payment was charged to this fund especially. He would now refer to the West Coast. He did "not . think that the system of land vouchers obtained

there, but all the other objectionable features in the system were observed. The agents there would agree on a price for land they had never seen, and which no white man could tell them anything about. They had purchased laud which the surveyors now reported to bo broken and worthless. The agents had to rely upon the statement as to the area. In one case the estimated area was 60,000 acres, but when it came to be surveyed it was found to contain not more than 7000 acres. The result of this was that the money advanced was far more than the total value of the laud was in and about Wanganui. Further up the coast a gentleman who had been treating with the Government got £IOOO for his alleged interest in a block. That gentleman was then appointed a land purchase agent at £4OO a year to complete the purchase of that block, which had not been done yet. More than that, this gentleman was a storekeeper, and the advance to the Maoris was paid through him, buggies, harness, and other articles purchased from his store having been supplied in lieu ot the money. The payment of compensation for the confiscated land was next referred to. Payments to the chiefs were made in secrecy, and they were ordered to sign fictitious names to hide the nature of the transaction. A sum of £IOOO, the expenses of a great Maori meeting at Waitara, was provided for in a most extraordinary way. The Native agent at Waimate got that amount by imprest, and to satisfy the auditors ho got these Maoris, who did not possess an inch of land tn the place, to sign receipts for the money. What he would contend for was that the whole system was demoralising and that they would not reap the expected benefits from their efforts. They must do away with the old system. No system could possibly be devised that could work worse than the present system. The pre-emptive right was, in his opinion, the best device that could be resorted to, but it would be impossible now to carry that out. Free trade in Native lands was equally untenable. What then remained for them to adopt ? Ho believed that the only valid system was that contained in the Bill, the second reading of which ho now proposed. The great object should be to settle these lauds, and ho contended that the Bill before the House was a step in that direction. It was, ho thought, the best law that could be devised under the circumstances. It was true that the Maoris might not bo disposed to place their lands in the hands of the Waste Lands Board.’ To make it popular with the Maoris it was proposed to enable them to make reasonable advances upon the lands. As regards the Maoris themselves, it would eventually bo a very great relief to them. It would save them from the perpetual annoyances of those persons who were always after them for their lands. He detailed the features of the Bill, and concluded by moving the second reading. Major Te Wheoso moved the adjournment of the debate.

Mr Hamlin, in seconding the motion for the adjournment, said that they had heard something from the mover which they would much like to enquire into. Then again they wanted to have the other measures to see their effect upon the whole question of the Native policy. He hoped that the Government would not object to the motion. Mr Macandkbw supported the motion for adjournment. The measure was one which required calm consideration. The Hon. W. Gisbobnb said the Native Minister had quoted from documents now before the House, and that itself was a reason for asking the adjournment. Mr Lundon also spoke in favour of the adjournment.

Sir G. Gbby said that the speech had been chiefly an attack upon other persons, and it was only fair that the late Native Minister should be present before the debate was gone on with.

The motion for the adjournment was then put and agreed to, and the debate adjourned till Friday. The Native Reserves Bill was withdrawn. The House then went into committee on the Pharmacy Bill and, on resuming, it was reported with amendments and ordered to bo considered on Friday. At 11.10 the House adjourned.