END OF STONEWALL

Gisborne Times, Volume LXI, Issue 9845, 25 October 1924, Page 5

END OF STONEWALL

ANOTHER ALL-NIGHT SITTING

MISAPPREHENSION OVER DIVISION. OPPONENTS OF BILL LEAVE CHAMBER. MR, MASSEY’S TACTFUL MOVE, WELLINGTON, Oct. 24. After the telegraph office closed the committee of the House continued-the discussion on clause 2 of the Gaminw Bill.

- At 1.35 a.m. Mr. Wright moved to uelete the word “hunt” from the clause,- with a view to limiting the issue of permits to trotting and racing clubs.

The debate proceeded very much in the filature of -a circle until 8 a.m., when the committee adjourned for breakfast Until 9.30 a. lll. W hen the debate on the -proposal to delete the word “hunt” from Clause 2 was resumed at 9.30, Mr. Young was in the chair, and quickly began to limit the scope of the debate by excluding various topics from discussion. The amendment survived until 11.45 ia-.m.. when it again reached troubled waters owing to the drastic rulings. Mr. Harris then came to the rescue with a new .amendment that the chairman do leave the chair. He had, however, not gone far when he was peremptorily ordered down on- the grounds that' the amendment was a “dilatory” one.

Mr. Young, then announced that he would, iii. strict exercise of his rights, refuse to receive any similar amendment.

The debate crJ the elimination of hunt clubs was then resumed by Mr. Armstrong. When the committee resumed after lunch, Mr. Parry argued that, while there was grave necessity for more direct control over racing by Parliament, this amendment would have t-lic effect still further of removing thatcontrol. He would, therefore, oppose the amendment.

Mr. Mc-Ildowic deplored centralisation creeping into racing. The effect of t-ho amendment would be to secure a more equitable distribution of permits.

Mr. !*• itt thought the Minister would welcome the amendment as relic- ring him from the sole responsibility for deciding the- difficult questionof distribution.

The discussion was continued by Labor members with Air. Isitt and Air. Wright until 3.50, when Air. Harris’ amendment was put . and declared lost.

The chairman then, amidst a good deal of- confusion-, proceeded to put the whole clause.

A division was called and, when members were about- to go into the lobbies. Air. Wright asked wliat they were voting noon. On the chairman announcing, that it- was on the clause and not on the amendment (as that had already been disposed of), Messrs. Wright and Harris and the Labor members protested that they were under the impression Air. Harris’ amendment- was the subject of the division and the Labor members named to act as tellers declined to act-.

After some delay, the chairmannamed two others and a division was taken and, though the figures were not announced, the chairman declared Clause 2 carried.

Air. Witty drew attention to the fact that a number of members had not voted. Protests continued against the chairman’s ruling, but ho maintained' that his action was quite correct and in accordance with the circumstances.

Alesrs. Harris, AA’right, and the Labor members then -announced their sretention to take no further part in the discussion and left tho Chamber in a body. Some discussion followed and, finally at the suggestion' of the Prime Minister, who had arrived in the meantime, it was decided to go back on the proceedings to the point at which the division was to be taken on Air. Harris’ amendment.

Air. Alassey said that there was no desire to take what might be deemed by some an unfair advantage- of sometiling that had occurred through amisapprehension. Air. AVilford end others concurred in this view -and the chairman left the chair at 4.55 to enable absent members to bo apprised of the committee’s decision.

On rSsuming at 5.39, the Labor members, with Messrs. AVright and Harris, were still absent. Air. Yoiir-g -announced “The co-ni r mittee has resumed.” Then the Government “whip” hurried in and held a whispered colloquy with the chairman, who then adjourned the proceedings till 7.30.

COMMITTEE STAGE OA’ER

MINIMUM AVEIGHT RAISED TO 7 STONE. WELLINGTON, Oct 24. AYhen the committee resumed at 7.30, the chairman explained that, during the dinner adjournment, lie had seen the members concerned in the incident that occurred during the afternoon and explained the committee’s decision to allow the votes to be taken again. He had been informed that the members referred to did not desire to "take any further part in the committee proceedings, but would participate in the third reading debate.

The committee then defeated Mr. Harris’ amendment and carried the rest- of. the clauses in the Bill, the' only challenge being made by Air, AA 7 right on Clause 2. The clause was retained by 41 votes to 5.

A new clause proposed by Mr. Poland ‘’That the minimum weight to he carried by any horse in any handicap flat race shall be seven stone,” was adopted by 37 votes to 10. This clause will not operate till August 1, 1925.

At 8.5 progress was then reported on .the Gaining Amendment, Chattels Transfer and Dentists' Amendment Bills and, ns Air., Speaker resumed' the chair, the Labor members and Air. Harris took their seats. The third reading was set down for next sitting-day and, on Air. Alassey’s motion, the House adjourned.— Press Assn.

SENSATIONAL DEVELOPMENT. DIVISION IN BIG CLAUSE. AYAS IT PROPERLY PUT? ' LABOR AND OTHER OPPONENTS LEAVE .CHAMBER. WELLINGTON, Oct. 24. The debate drifted on till the middle of the afternoon without incident. But. about 4 o’clock, there was a, sensational development. Up to that time the House had been discussing Air. Harris’ amendment to clause 27. Air. Young, who was in the chair at the time, put the amendment and it went through without a division. He then put the clause and a division was called for bv the opponents of the Bill. The bells were rung and members had gathered in the House for the division. The chairman stated the questions to be voted on, saying "That the question was the clause ns it apeeared in tlie.Bill .should stand.” At" once there were protests from the Labor benches. Opponents of the Bill declared that they had.called for a. division on the amendment. . Air. Young maintained that he was perfectly clear about the matter and that the amendment had gone through without a division being asked for.

Air. R. A. Wright began a protest

■MERRIMENT IN THE GALLERIES iMr. S. G. Smith (referring to the fact that on occasions of the kind a mmber who speaks must have his hat on and remain seated) : A point of order. The honorable member is not covered. 'v 4U ' ''■'■* .''dl'A Mr. Harris lent his colleague- sB writing pad, which Mr. Wright Ihcld'over Ills head. ' ■ j-; Mr. McCombs,-holding a newspaper over his head, also commenced a protest.

Mr. Smith: The honorable member is not properly covered.; Air. Sullivan caine to the rescue of Mr. AlcCombs with a felt lrat some sizes too large. These proceedings caused considerable merriment both in the Chamber and in the galleries. Air. AlcCombs asserted that he had asked for a division on the amendment, -- ” - , Mr. Young stuck to his decision and said that the division would he on the clause, the 'amendment having been lost on the voices. Members got out of their seats and were trooping into the lobbies when, those who had been ..appointed by the chairman as tellers for the “'Noes” announced that they refused to act. Other names of opponents to the Bill were suggested and all declined. Then Mr. Guthrie a Liberal who had opposed the Bill, was- suggested as a teller. All-. Edie moved off to do the work, but was intercepted by Air. Harris, who, apparently, put it to him that he should not act. The difficulty was overcome by Alessrs. Smith and T. W l . Rhodes, two supporters of the Bill, consenting to tell for the “Noes.” The division went on in the ordin--ary way, except that it was observed that most if not all of the opponents of the Bill -did not vote. They remained seated in the Chamber when the tellers returned with- the division lists. MEMBERS REFUSE TO VOTE. Air. G. Witty drew the chairman’s attention to tlio failure of some of the members to vote. Air. Harris: I refuse to vote. Air. Wright: I refuse absolutely to vote. The Hori, Sir Heaton Rhodes point- • -ed out that, under the- Standing Orders, everyone present in- the Chamber when a division was taken had to vote.

Mr. Young quoted the authority which proved this to be the case. Mr. Holland: I: move that the Speaker be called in and his opinion taken on the question. A[r. Smith: He can’t get in; the doors are locked. Air. Holland said that the chairman had had written amendments handed up to him. Air. Young: There is one here, but the honorable member who handed it m> is not in the House. Mr. Young also said that some members had not voted and there was a provision that, in the case of confusion, a second division could be taken. He would proceed to a. second division: On the question being put again it was agreed- to'without -a division. This meant that- Clause 2. the principal clause, of the Bill, was through. Air. Harris: Can the Speaker he called in to give an opinion on your ruling? No notice was taken of Air. Harris’ suggestion. Air. Harris: 1 move to report progress as I want to challenge your ruling. Air. Young took na.lieed and went straight on to Clause 3. STR ANGE SCENE IN THE CHAMBER.

The House was in a strange condition. Some members were leaving the Chamber. Supporters of the Bill were moving about with broad smiles on their faces; opponents were consulting one another, as to what they should do. There -was a considerable surplus of what Air. Speaker always refers to as “too much loud conversation,” and generally the Chamber sounded more like a wool sale than- a meeting of Parliamentarians. A CHAGRINED MEMBER.

“I intend to leave the Chamber and take no further part in the debate,” Air. Harris declared. “This I will do as a protest against the action of the chairman in refusing to accept the word of an honorable member of this House.”

Air. 'Holland: I fully concur in what Air. Harris has said. The lion, member, gave me his definite word of honor that he did challenge a division on the amendment. Air. Holland added that the chairman lif.d refused to take the word of an lion, member (Air AlcCombs) and the Labor members proposed to withdraw from mrther part- in the business on the Bill because of this. All*. Atmore- said he was supporting the Bill, but it was only fair to Air. McCombs to say he did ask for a division on the- amendment. Air. Wright: I will withdraw because I definitely heard Air. AlcCombs call for a- division on the amendment. Air. Young: I am perfectly confident I have done the right tiring.

Air. T. AA r . Rhodes suggested 1 going back over the proceedings. There was a. majority in favor of the Bill and the majority ought to be generous opponents. The opponents of the Bill then trooped out of the Chamber. Mr. 'Witty said he was present and heard the chairman distinctly state the question twice. Ho asked several Labor members if they had voted 1 and they said "No, they had no intention to.” They had every opportunity to vote but had not done so-.

A DILEMAIA. Air. Poland suggestd that a messenger should be sent to ask the members who absented themselves from the Oli am her to return and hear the present discussion. Air. Young agreed that might be dome, but lie did not know where they 'were. Mr 'Lysnar said they should go hack to the clause and take a new vote on the amendment that had been moved to the clause. Mr. J. S. Dickson said he had been paying great attention to the issue at the time of the division, particularly as Mr. Massey was paired with the Hon. AAA D. Stewart." He had even helped Air. Stewart up in order that ho might go cut, of the Chamber. The doors were locked and the division on the clause called, for. There was no objection until after that. He was quite- clear on the point, because of the fact that he had assisted Mr. Stewart. , - - ' . Sir Heaton Rhodes said he was just outside, and had come into the Cham- / ber for tlio division, and lie was assured on all sides that it was the clause they were dividing on. Air. AVitty said it should be understood that it was only the division that should! be taken. There should ho no further ' discussion on the amendment. The chairman said that would he a matter for the Speaker. Air. Witty: Now we will be here for a wgek.' It should be "Yes ’ or "No.’/": ■ •' . Mr 1 . Glenn (Government whip) said there was no doubt in his mind as to what had l boon T>ut to the House. It was the clause.' He had heard the ehcUrnian put it- "that the clause stands.” Personally he did not care whether there was another division ashe knew there, was a two to one majority. He was quite prepared io take another chance. .

PREMIER AGREES DIVISION SHOULD BE TAKEN- AGAIN.

Air. Massey said . unfortunately he was not present when the trouble arose, so he was unable to speak with authority as to what happened. So far as lie had been able to understand from what ho hoard of the discussion now going on there had been a nris>-

understanding. Ho was quite sure that r;o one in tlie House would suggest that the chairman had been guilty of doing anything unfair, or but what he knew to bo perfectly straightforward. Whatever misunderstanding there was, he felt sure it was not Air. Young’s fault. It was a very awkward question to settle. He would' support those who felt that the d ; i vision should be taken again. Air. AVitty: But there should he no discussion.

LIBERAL, LEADER’S ACCOUNT. Air. AVilford said lib was there all the time and had heard _ all that was said. The whole discussion had ended oiv the amendment. to delete the words “Minister of Internal Affairs” and insert the words “Governor-Gen-eral.”

The chairman then put the motion “That the words stand.” There was a strange silence and he thought that the opponents of the Bill were going to allow it to go without a division, as they had clone on a previous divisr ion. No voices were given “No,” hut lie believed that those who had subsequently given their voices on the clause as a whole were giwing them ■as against the amendment to- strike out the words as proposed. If the matter were allowed to stand as it wore at present, advantage might be taken of the position by those who were in opposition to the Bill. He suggested- that they take a divisionagain on the question tha_t the words “Minister of Internal Affairs” stand.

It was resolved that t-lie matter he dealt with by the committee, i.e., what further action should be taken, and then, on' Air. AVilford’s motion, “That the motion moved by the member for Waitomata be now considered by the committee.” All*. F. J. Rolleston said he was under the impression that the bell was ringing on the .amendment, and that impression was heard by a good many -others.

Air. Alassey said lie thought the issue should have been settled without all the waste of time there had been, but he was clear that they should not make, it possible for the opponents to say that they who were supporting the Bill had not played the game. It was decided that the committee should resume on the ringing of the hell. The chairman left the chair at .five minutes to five. Meantime he had called upon the absent ones and explained the position l fo them.. Air. Young resumed the chair at 5.32 p.m, and 1 immediately left it as the hour for the dinner adjournment had arrived. It was understood that, the Labor party would take 110 further part in the . proehedir.igs in committee and that they would continue- to absent themselves from the- House until the Bill had passed through’ committee.

SECOND READING CARRIED. AIR. POLAND’S AMENDMENT. MINIMUM WEIGHT 7.0 INSTEAD OF 6.7. TO TAKE EFFECT OX AUGUST 1, 1925. AY ELLIN GT ON, Oct. 24. When the House resumed at 7.30 the oppositionists, with the exception of Air. Wright, were absent. Air. Young made a statement to the •effect that, since the afternoon adjournment, he had communicated the "decision of the House to the members who had withdrawn, from the Chamber, but those who he had seen had no desire to proceed further in their work on the Bill but would be present to take part in the third reading debate.

Air. Alassey said he thought everything possible had been clone, and the sooner the House got back to the Bill and finished it the better. In saying that, he was not referring to the third reading of the Bill but to the committee stage. The amendment to leave out- the words “Alinister for Internal Affairs” and insert “Governor-General” was defeated 011 the voices, and on a division Clause 2 was carried by 41 votes to 5, Air. F. J. Rolleston telling with Air. AAT'iglit against the clause.

The remainder of the clauses were carried on l the voices. Air. 11. Poland (Ohinemuri) then moved to insert the following new clause,' "The minimum weight to he carried by any horse in any handicap flat race shah he seven stone.” Under the present law stated Air. Poland, the minimum weight during the winter months was not less than nine stone, but during the rest of the year tl\o minimum was 6st 7lbs, and the top-weight not less than 9 .stone. The committee divided and the new clause was carried by 37 vcites to 10. The Hon. J. G. Coates said that the passing of the clause would lead to rather' an extraordinary position. The weights for the races were already out for some time ahead over Xmas, and right into the New Year. It would bo necessary to fix some date ahead of that when the clause was to come into operation. Mr. Poland said that it had been his intention, to do that. He moved a. sub-clause providing that it should come into operation on August .1, 1925, the first day of the new racing year. Air. AVilford suggested that, with the consent of the committee, they could go back to the clause and make it read "on and after August 1, 1925, etc.”

The Prime Minister said that .if there was any difficulty about it he would be glad to have it fixed up in "another place,'.’ hut he did not think there would be the slightest objection to it. Sir George Hunter pointed out that if the clause stood at drafted it would be compulsory on the handicapper to start at a minimum, of 7 stone, but it might not be convenient, to start so low. It might be better to start at, say. 7st olbs. It should he “not less than 7 stone.’’ In any district where light boys were very scarce it might be necessary to start considerably over 7 stone. Mr. Coates said that the clause required careful drafting. He 'suggested that it should be passed as it stood and the position could be made clear in "another place.” That would give sufficient time to draft a clause to cover the matter, as evidently the House had decided and desired. Mr. Poland thought that the committee could put it in shape then' and there. He moved that the new clause should read: “On and after the first day or August, 1925, the minimum weight to be carried by any horse in any handicap flat race shall be not loss than 7 stone.” Voices: That’s all right. Mr. Coates said that he objected to the clause. Ic should be reconsidered. . - - Mr. Young: The division is already on record. “ Mr. Coates: Then, that’s all right. The committee decided to reconsider the clause and. it wiis carried as amended on the voices. The Bill Suns reported with amendments, and the third reading put down for next sitting day, but it will probably be taken on Tuesday. DIVISION LISTS. The division lists are as follows: ■—Clause 2. —■ 7 For (41): Anderson. Bell, Bollard, Coa.tos, Corrigan, de la Pcrello; Dickson (J. S.). Field, Forbes, Guthrie, Hariafl, Hawken, Hockly, Hudson, Hunter, Linklater, Lye. Lysna.r, McKay. McLeod, MacMillan, Macpbersony 7. Massey, • Masters, Murdp.ch, Nash, Nosworthy, Poland, Bom are, Rar*teonv Rhodes (2), Rolleston Smith, Svkes, Thomson. Urn, Veitcli, Wilford, Williams, arid Wittjv Ao-ainst (5): Parr, Boileston Sidey, Stewart and Wright.

Pairs: " For —Glenn and Buddo; against—Burnett .and .Bitchencr. , THE NEAV CLAUSE, x

For (37): Anderson, Bell, Corrigan, de la Perelle. Dickson (J.S.), Forbes,. Gilding, Guthrie, Hawken, Hockly, Hudson, Hunter, Lin'klater, Lye, Lysnar, McKay, AlacAiillaji, Maepherson, Alassey, Masters, Murdoch, Nash, Poland, Parr Ransom, Rhodes (T.AV.), Rolleston (2), Sidey, Smith, Sykes, Grii, Veitch, AVilford, - Williams, Witty arid Wright. Against (10): • Bollard 1 , Coates, Field, Gleii'n, Hanan, McLeod, Nosworthy, Pomtare, Rhodes (Sir l(. H.), and Thomson.

LABOR MEMBERS “LET OFF.” After the first division the Labor members and the few others who had been stonewalling with them trooped back into the Chamber. They seemed quite happy. It was a really good let off for them. They had realised that they were already beaten, and they must n'ow have been pleased at realising that they would be spared the physical and mental strain of keeping an ineffective stonewall going till Sunday morning with the possibility of having to resume it on Monday. The Bill, with some others, was then reported to Air. Speaker, and on Air. Massey's motion the House adjourned till 7.30 on M-onday. AH the galleries, men’s and women’s. were packed with expectant onlookers who were- denied the expectant night’s fall entertainment. As the Speaker left the chair there was general laughter in the Chamber and in the galleries, which slowly emptied. On the floor of the House several members remained discussing among themselves the incidents of an unusual day.—Special.

OPPOSITION SUPPORTED BY RELIGIOUS LEADERS. PREMIER- CALLED ON TO WITHDRAW BILL. WELLINGTON, Oct. 24. A meeting of ministers and church members, at which the Rev. J. Harry presided, supported tho opposition to the Gaming Bill and passed a long series, of resolutions calling on the Premier to withdraw “it and not use his influence- to force it through.” A special resolution addressed to the Premier spoke of the interests of the young and claimed that some were going against their convictions. Another asked the Speaker to receive a deputation l .—P.A.

“UXAVARRANTED TACTICS.”

INDIGNANT- DARGAYILI/E RESIDENTS UPHOLD PREMIER. DARGAA’JLLE, Oct. 24. A largo and representative gathering of town and country citizens, presided over by the- Deputy-Alaycr, was held this afternoon in connection with the Gaming Bill and passed the following resolution: '“That this representative meeting of residents of Dargaville and the surounding districts protests against the undemocratic and unwarranted tactics by the opponents of the Gaming Bill now before Parliament. Important legislation is being delayed by the attitude of a small minority of extremists and a large amount of the count’y’s money is being wantonly wasted. This meeting congratulates the Prime Alinister and his Government on the stand being taken and heartily wishes that success will crown their efforts.” The motion was moved by Air. F. J. Dargaville, chairman of stewards of the Dargaville Racing Club, and a member of the Auckland DistrictCommittee, who made a vigorous attack on the tactics adopted by the opponents of the Bill. —P.A.

METHODISTS AND THE GAMING BHiL. .

VIGOROUS PROTEST AND EFFECTIVE REPLY. WELLINGTON, Oct. 24. The following is a copy of a. telegram from the Rev. Bellhouse, chairman of the Methodist district, Dunedin, dated 23/10/’24 to the Hon. AV. D. Stewart : “Representative meeting of ministers and laymen of tho Methodist Churches of Dunedin, representing 1590 members and 5000 adherents, to-day passed a resolution vigorously protesting against the ignoble effort to force the Gaming Bill through Parliament. Economically, socially and morally it wil injure the Dominion. AA T c urge that tlie Bill he immediately withdrawn.” Air. Dowriie Stewart has sent the following reply:

"Your telegram re Gaming Bill received. The position is very different from what you suppose it would he. Although personally I have voted against the increase- in permits for reasons which I need not set forth at present, I any in favor of the other clauses in the Bill, which are necessary in the public interests. If the sinister influences that are behind the opposition to this Bill attain their ultimate object, you may rest assured that a standard of morality in racing matters will he reached more demoralising and insidious to the welfare of the community than anything the Dominion has yet seen. This may sound paradoxical to the ministers and laymen of the Alethodist Churches, but your past knowledge of the Prime Minister’s attitude in matters of public and private morality should make you pause, before describing this effort as ignoble without knowing the inside history of the present position.” —Special.