PARLIAMENT

Dominion, Volume 13, Issue 19, 17 October 1919, Page 8

PARLIAMENT

THE SHORTAGE OF HOUSES PERFECTING THE STATE'S RELIEF MEASURE VARIOUS AMENDMENTS The Legislative Council met at 2.30 IJ.IU, Leave of absence for 0110 week was granted the ILou. 11. W. Alison. BILLS FROM LOWER HOUSE. The following Hills were received from the Lower House, and were rend a first time:—Post and Telegraph Amendment Bill, New Zealand University Amendment Bill, 'Howard Estate Bill. BILLS PASSED. The Education Purposes Loans Bill, tho Manawalu Gorge Road and Bridge Bill, and the Pishing Industry Promotion Bill were put through comnultec. read a third time, and passed The Discharged Soldiers .Seltlemcnt Amendment Bill was put through committee and set down for third iciwliiijf, SETTLEMENT OF SOLJ3IERS. THE QUESTION OP ROADS.

SIR. FRANCIS BELL moved the second reading, of the Discharged Soldicts Settlement Amendment Bill. Speakers to tho motion generally approved the Bill. , . , SIR FRANCIS BELL, replying to the few observations made details oi the measure, remarked that it was useless to talk of holding back settlement until roads had been made. Ho had had an experience that had shown .him the fallacy of such talk. Tho Government had thought for a time that the best way to keep certain land back for Ajain Body men would be not to road it. Tho idea had, however, been proved unsound by the eagerness of men to get upon the land in question, roads or no roaqs. Ihe charge that it was "a shame to put men on land where there was only a bridle track'' was mere platform talk. Men wero determined lo go upon such land, and it was onlv after they had got their way that they 'complained about roadmg. Tho motion was carried. SECOND READINGS. Tho Education Purposes Loans Bill and the Manawatu Gorge Road . and Bridge Bill were read a second time. The Council adjourned for the afternoon at 3.50 p.m., and resumed in tho evening. THEHOUSE The Housa of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. The Government Railways Amendment Bill wns introduced by Jfwsage from tho Governor-General. Mr. MASSEY (Minister of Railways) said that tho purpose of tho Bill was to provide for increments of pay of railway servants. 'The Bill was read a first timo. LORD JELLICOE'S REPORT. The Prime Minister presented tho report of Admiral Viscount Jellieoe on naval defence in tho Pacific. SIR JOSEPH WARD (Leader of the Opposition) said that he hoped there would be no attempt made by tho Government to rush the country into any proposals oi naval without giv■ing the country time to digest tho proposals made. Ho suggested that it would bo proper to defer the matter, ftud allow it to be dealt with by the new Parliament. Ho was verv strongly of opinion that tho' issues should be kept clear of party politics. Mr. MASSEY: With the Leader of tho Opposition, I hope that when the elections come along this ivill not bo oonsidered a party question. The report and recommendation, as will be seen, are of tho utmost importance to the whole Empire, and particularly to British citizens in tho South Pacific. I think Parliament must bo given an opportunity this session of considering the report. Mr Jlvcrs: Are the recommendations so urgent? Mr. Masqey: "I will tell you presently. I ought to say that there is a confidential report which it is not advisable to make public at present, but honourable members, and their constituents with 'them, when, they have an opportunity of reading tho report, will understand for themselves tho very serious position in which woniay be placed in years to come, and it is not too soon now to beifin to prepare for possibilities. Thore will bq no necessity for legislation this session. 1 think it iwil bo necessary to ask Parliament to agree to legislation next session, and 1 can only hope that then tho representatives oi the people will not look 'at the question from any party point of view, but from tho point of viow of tho safety, of the Empire, and particularly of British citiMns 'in this country." Mr; Massey added that lie proposed to allow an afterpoon, or possibly a whole day, for tho discussion of the report in the House. LOCAL BILLS. The following local Bills were read a second time:—Hauraki Plains I Thames, and Ohineniun Counties Bill (Mr. l. Vi. Rhodes), Matakaoa County " 111 . W. ]). S. Mncl)onald), Auckland Harbour Board Loan and Empowering Bill (Hon. A. M. Myers), Inglcwcod County Bill' (Hon. J. B. Hinc) Wellington City Empowering and Amendment Bill (Mr. P Fraser). Patea Harbour Amendment Bill (Mr. Pearce), liivercargili Borough Boundaries Extonsion Bill (Hon J. A. Ilanan), Hawke's Boy pvcrfl Bill (Sir John Findlay), Wellington City Abattoir Loan Bill (Mr. Luke). The Bills wero put through committee with a few amendments of minor importance. read a third time, nnd passed.

the housing bill

REQUEST FOB LARGER LOANS,

The Housing Bill was committed. Mr C A. Wilkinson asked what provision the Government proposed to make to prevent trafficking 111 houses built umler tho Bill. Tho object of the scheme would be defeated if people were allowed to sell the houses at a profit. It would bo better for tho State to retain the title. Ho suggested the Government should advance the money at 4 per cent, all round, and charge tho loss to the Consolidated Fund. Tho Bill should be made the most liboral measure it was possiblo to offer the P Thp C 'llon. D. Buddo said that a day's wages should cover a week's, rent, and he thought the rate of interest had better bo reduced to 4 per cent. It would pay the Dominion to face some loss on housing. A Word of Caution.

Mr Mai;?ey nsked members to remember that tho Bill would probably operate for a very long time to come. The Government at present could not provido money at i per cent, without making n very considerable lass. Ilns would mean that a portion of cei lain people's reiit would have to be paid by other people who wero no better on. Enormous demands wero being made upon tho Consolidated Fund, which had now just-about as much as it could bear If more charges wero put ngiunst that" fund, tho Government would have to increase taxation. here could the new taxation be placed? Tho position was difficult and Parliament would have to meet early next year and consider the whole financial situation. It had been su<"»ested that the scheme should not be controlled ]>>' ,ll(1 Lllbour He thought the Government mi? it ho fiu-C'er and fare worse. 1 ho Bill viiled for consultation with. experts. I'he head of tho Labour Department was avnnging for the construction of P« liiii'dii'~s in Wellington now. He had bid wide experience of buihbuL'. end n " n.o who'e had done very-good wor'c. T'e •' : d rot 'mo-- how- far the scheme could lie carried. The Gevormnnnt woii'd lie'-e dn-e <>. 'v»l thins if it discouraged pr ! - viite bi"' For More Conc3s ci ons. Mr. I?. A. Wright expressed geirral approval of the Bill and of the amendments proposing an increase in the limit of income. He would like to see tho

rate of interest reduced to 4 per cent., hut there were real difficulties in tho way. Tho money in the Post Office was already being used. Ho suggested that the Government could build a garden suburb at Point Italswell, where it had 230 acres of good land in the prison reservo. The people in need of homes would be helped if the Government would increase the proportion of valuo to be allowed in an advance. Sir. G. W. Ktissell said that the Bill was drafted .more especially to meet the case of the large cities. One weakness of tho scheme was the centralised control scheme proposed, Places to Build. Dr. Newman urged that the Point Halswoll reserve be used for a garden suburb. It would accommodate 1000 or 5000 people, and it would never be used as a Defence reserve under conditions of nwdern warfare. Other military and native reserves .should be utilised. He did not favour the selling of the houses. It would lead to profiteering in tho houses. Mr. Massey: They cannot sell for ten years. l)r. Newman tsaid that the Government should concentrate on cheap building of houses in order to rent them at 15s. a week. They should never be sold to anybody who might in turn sell to someone else able to do without State help, 'l'iie Government should help tho poor people. On Private Enterprise. Mr. P. I ? raser said thut the Government need have no fears about curbing the activities of private builders, because private enterprise in house building had broken down. That was the reason for tho Bill. He considered the Bill a .great improvement on existing legislation, but slill very far short of requirements. He went on to speak of the deplorable conditions existing in Wellington, by reason of overcrowding, and by reason of people living in constant fear-of oviction. The Bill would be a dead letter unless a census .was taken of available labour, and account was taken of tho available supplies, 'i'lie Labour Department officers knew the work, and they could administer this Bill, but they should be organised specially for tho work. Mr. P. Slander said that the Government would do better by calling tenders for the houses than by building the houses on day wages. Government work always cost more than private work. Ho. did not believe that a five-roomed house could be built in wood to-day for ,£750, and concrelo houses would cost 2. r > per cent. more. In spite of extra cost he would urge tho erection of concrete dwellings.' There was a shortago of skilled tradesmon, but this was the natural outcome of the policy of restricting the number of apprentices entering trades. Mr. ,T. A. Hanan said that the purchase of land for houses bv th» State would lead to appreciation in values of land, nnd ho thought provision should be made to give the local authority somo benefit from the increased value. Mr. Poole and Mr. Anderson suggested Hint the people could be housed more quickly and more cheaply by the buying of terraces or even flats. The conditions, they admitted, would not b« *• good, but if extra good conditions were i'emandod they would have to be paid for. The Poorer Workers. Mr. R. ifomple said (hat the cost of tho houses to be built would bo too high for manv of the lower paid workers. He suggested that the rate of interest should bo reduced. Mr. Ell protested against the suggestion that tho Government should build flats. . Mr. Mnssey:, I nm not going lo build any flats. Country Housing. Mr. G. Forbes asked for more, provision for better housing in tho country districts. He hoped that some further provision might be made lo enable farmers to provide housing for country workers. Mr. C. J. Parr suggested that this work should all bo handed over to an expert wl.io should have knowledge of town-planning as carried on in garden suburbs in Britain, and America. He suggested that • a gentleman like Mr. Hurst Soager was tho sort of officer to be appointed. , , Mr. G. AV. Russell ,also preyed for the appointment of a housing expert. The work could not bo well directed by an officer controlling a big Department like Labour. < Mr. Massey poinjed out that the Bill provided for the appointment of a housing expert. He indicated, in reply to another remark, (hat ho did not proiwse to go outside of New Zealand for officers he might wish to appoint. Mr. Fraser urged the setting lip of a special board to administer the scheme. Question of Control, Mr. Massey said that ho hoped honourable members w«'o in earnest about tho Bill. For his part ho was anxious to get it on the Statute Book. Ho wished to get the Bill through, in order thai a start could be made at once. Members- had said that the head of IV, Labour Department would not bo able to do Iho work, ■ that the architect would not bo able to do it, that a man with imagination was required, and so on. Did honourable members not realiso. that to appoint a new set. of officers and to appoint a new lxmrd would involvo delay—serious delay. The need for immediate action was urgent. A beginning' had nlreadv been made with sixty-six houses in Wellington. Ho proposed that the Bill should bo accepted for the present. Later, after somo experience in working, a stair, nnd a board should : be appointed. The House would meet early next year.

Mr. Wilkinson 'urged the setting) up of a new Department, and in this ho was supported by other members. Mr. Ell especially objected to tho clause naming officers of the Labour Department as the permanent administrators of the housing scheme. Mr. Massey said that he wished to have tho immediate assistance of experienced men as soon as tho Bill was passed. * ' v .. Mr. Ell said that Mr. Massey, if he chose, could appoint the officers of the Lnbour Department to act meantime, but the appointment, of the?e men should not be made permanent by law. The power to make anoointments should bo retained by the M : «istf. Mr Massey'said that he was tot. prepared to accept all tlio responsibility in the fashion suggested. Mr Ell suggested that there should bo deleted from the clause tho phrase "and holding office at tho commencement of this Act," defining tho oflkialjj to constitute the board. This would not. gfvu statutory confirmation 'to tho appointment of certain named officers. Mr. Massey agreed to accept the amendment, which was subsequently agreed to. Prior Claims. Sir. Ell urged tjiat a man villi threo or more children should ha\o prio; claim to a house. Mr. Massey said the waiter rested with the board, which would use its own discretion. • Jlr. Wilkinson urged the I'nme Minister to allow an extension "of tliß income limit for eacli child in ft family veganlless of number. Mr. Massey said ho would conßi(>V T*; point. Mr P. Eraser urged that a worker would not bfc ablo to pay 18s. Gd. a week for a concrete house. Mr. Massey sairt the weekly payment for a house costing .C7OO would l)e only 135. Gil. under the'aniended scheme. ■Replying to several members he said Cabinet would consider the reduction of tho rate of interest to four per cent ■ Mr. I). Rem pie: If you. would do that you would liavo one of the best Bills, in Australasia. Mr. Ell suggested that a tenant should have his rent reduced if he paid off a lump sum of principal at any tiinp. Mr. Massey said this could be done.

Trafficking in/Homes. Mr. Wilkinson asked for provision to prevent trafficking in the State homes. Sir .Toconh Ward said Unit after a man liiid nroup'"d a hnn«n for ten years he would b" aWc to sell reirardless of the inItosls nf hi 1 ; wife and family, who might' hnve help»d to »av tho instalments. There should be protection of the family home on the lines of existing legislation, lie moved that any person who had aorj'.iire'l a home under the Tii'l should be e'llitlrd to have the home declared a family home under the Family Homo Protection Act, 1!)HS. This would mean that a home so treated could not bo sold withous tho consent of a Judge. '

Mr. Mnesey: "No. The consent of the wife. I will accept that." 110 had made a proposal on those lines in 1911. and ho was prepared to embody it in the Bill. Mr. Wilkiiuxm said ho wanted to go further and stop speculation altogether. The country shoufd not provide cheap houses for people and then let those people sell out at increased prices to other people. That would defeat the object of the Kill. Dr. A. K. Newman said Hie Government houses should bo kept cheap. The Government should not allow the prices to bo increased. Mr. Massey said he had met the same difficulty in his legislation providing country homes. -The provision liad been that flic owner of one of the homes could only sell to a person who complied with the original conditions as to incomo limit. The house iiad io remain a worker's home. He was willing >to extend the ten years' term, but the occupier must be left with an incentive to make the home his own as far as rentpaying was concerned, Mr. Parr said if tho Government lfuilt homes at. a loss, no occupier should be allowed to sell out and pocket the protit. Ho should be required to pay over what the Stale had lost. Mr. Mossey said the board oould veto sales within ten years. He was willirig to extend the period to fifteen years. Mr. Wright suggested that any owner who wanted to'sell should bo required to <riw first offw to tho Government, which wouul pay a fair price. Limiting Sales. Mr. Maesey said he was willing to acr cept a provision that a home could bo transferred only to a person with tho income limit originally demanded. But discretion must bo left with the ixmixl, since values might change greatly. Mr. Massey, nfter further discussion, consented to remove the reference to a certificate of title from clause 21. The cfl'ect of this amendment wns to make all! transfers of State houses subject to the consent of the board. * Several members urged that a homo should revert to the State if the occupier wished to leave it. Mr. Eraser, \said tlmt the reversionary principle had been applied successfully in American housing schemes. Mr. Massey moved the following addition to clause 22: "Every certificate of t'tle under this section shnJl have written thereon a memorandum stating that a'.l dispositions of land aro subject to the restrictions imposed by section 21 of thiß Act." The amendment, was agreed to. Othor amendments of a machinery nature, proposed by the Minister, worn Inserted. , Employers and Workers,

Mr. Holland objected to Part 3 of tho Bill, providing for loans to employers for workers' dwellings. The proposal was not a sound one. It gavo an opportunity to an empoyer to make a profit out of State expenditure. He movcd to strike out Part 3.

Mr. Alassey said tlio clause had beon eafeaunrded, and would be further safeguarded by regulation. Mr. Holland, asked if the worker provided with a houso under this section oould bo given security of tenure. Would he bo protected from ejection by the emplover in the case of a strike or lock-out? Mr. Masscy said ho would make provision for. t.hnt point by regulation. Mr. Wilkinson said the point cut both ways. A freezing company, for example, misflit be held up because pen would not either work or make room for other men in the houses. Mr. Talbot asked if "industry" covered a. farm. Could a farmer get assistance to build a worker's home? Mr. Massey replied that tho Bill would cover such a case.

Mr. Holland moved to striko out Part 3 relating to loans to employers for hous-. tap. 'flic amendment was rejected by 44 votes to 4. . Mr. Massey, answering a question, said ■ho available money would bo distributed as soon as possible among tho l'.>cal bodies applying. The Bill was reported from Commitleo at 1 a.m.

The Bill was rend a third time after somo discussion and passed.