CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS

Dominion, Volume 12, Issue 108, 31 January 1919, Page 6

CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTORS

DEMAND FOR RELEASE SIR JAMES ALLEN'S ANSWER "SHIRKERS" AND "CONSCIENCE" VIEWS OF LABOUR LEADERS. A demand for the release of the conscientious objectors now serving sentences of imprisonment for offences under the Military Service Act was made by a delegation from the Labour Conference now sitting iu Wellington, which waited on Sir James Allen yesterday. Mr. P. Fraser, M.P., introducing the deputation, said that it represented (iO.OCO workers. \ Mr. J, Roberts said Mat to a large extent the objects of the Peace Conference were to forgive and forget, and : he hoped the Government of Js'ew ZeaI land would adopt the same policy. Men ] should not any longer be kept in gaol ! out of mere vindictiveness. The gaol was j no place for honourable men, and they I should be let out. In England the moveI ment to let out the conscientious objec- | tors had almost universal support. He I did not believe that twenty per cent, j of the people of this country wanted to I keep, these men in gaol any longer. The people wanted an amnesty for these delauiters. \ Mr. AV; E. Parry asked what was the intention of the Government in keeping j these men in gaol. He" urged that the ; punishment of these men twice for the one offence was a disgrace to democracy. The miuers felt very strongly about the release of these men, and he wanted to I say, without making any threat to tho • Acting-Prime Minister, that if this small i policy of vindictiveness were persisted in !by the Government it would end in i trouble. The miners reasoned from the j point of view that-.these men had been I put into gaol as the result of a law ! enacted by Parliamentarians with no j i]<:mdnfp from thp people at all. He felt j it was going too far for the- Government ; to persist iu their policy of revenge by keeping awn 111 incarceration n-hi'ii 110 good purpose could be served. He trusted that the Government would give the question consideration, and would refrain from persisting in this policy. It would bo a reasonable thing for the Government to do, now that .the war was over, to let these men out. , and to allow old sores to heal. The policy'of the Government seemed to be to get a handful of salt and rub it into the sores. He urged that the men should bo allowed to come out and render useful service to the community. Mr. fraser Brings a Message. I Mr, Fraser, At.P., conveyed a message I to the Acting-Prime Minister from some of the religious objectors in Waikeria ! Prison, Tho Quakers, hesaid, had wished J him to convey a message- to. the Minister ! unci to the public generally, that while j they appreciated any steps that' might ' bo taken to make it gusier for- those J whose religious objections were beyond dispute to find' thoir way out of prison, they felt tliat those who had objections to service from an international point of view, were just as conscientious ns tliemselves, and until similar facilities were given to these, men the Quakers would not appeal to the board that had been set up because they considered tliat religion and conscience were net synonymous terms. They held that it was quite possible for those who held free-tliiuking views to have a conscience. Tho views.expressed by the deputation, he continued, were those held practically unanimously by organised Labour. At a timo like the present when the country was faced with the greatest problem in its history, that of repatriation, it was essential to have a .united people if the men returning were to be settled on knd nnd put- into industries with unnecessary friction. . This unity could be achieved if these men were released. Mr, T. Bloodwqrth said that it was Ihp. unanimous wish of the conference that the request for the release of those nicn should be made to the Minister. The conference felt that no good purpose would be served by keeping the men any longer in prison. The rensim of preventing them from spreading their views did not exist any longer now that (he war was over, and Jic urged that their punishment had already been severe enough. Apart from their .views on this matter the character of these men was unimpeachable, and he thought the Government would, bo doing nn action of which tlio whole country would approve, and certainly one o'f which organised Labour would approve if it released these men. MINISTER'S REPLY. "NO VINDICTIVENESS." Sir James Allen said that he had listened with patience to what the deputation had said. He wished to disabuse their minds altogether of the idea thai the Mini'ster of Defence was vindictive, or that the Government was vindictive. That was not so. He was not personally ft vindictive man. He feared (hat he had often been too soft-hearted. Mr. Parry had said that there were old sores to be healed. This was quite true. Some there were which could never be healed. There were some IG.OOO or 17,000 of New Zealand's .sons lying buried on foreign soil. His own son was lying in a grave on Gallipoli. The Government had 1 had to call upon married men with two children, very much against his wish, an.l the position had been icached when the cail would have had to bo made or the men with three children. Did they think that to do this was any pleasure to him or to the Government? He could have saved a good many of those married men frojn goinj: to tho front-if other men had done what the Government believed, and what lie believed (to be their duty, and gone to defend their country. •Some would not. They stayed, here aiid saved their skins, arid ho had to call upon (he married men to do it. Was not that a sore? He wanted to heal it. and he would be glad to heal it, but nothing that could bp done vimld replace these men who had gone and laid down their lives. Mr. Parry: The men here did not kill them. Sir James Allen said thnt he had not interrupted members of the deputation, and he hoped they would nut interrunr him. Tho "Twice Punished" Contention. It had been said that they, wore punishing twice for the same uft'once. 'il-is was not trij". A man was punished for one offence. If after he was aiiowod nut of gaol he committed the offence again, he was punished again, just us a man who had committed a robbery, servj ed a sentence for "it, and then committed another robiwy on his ii-Imsc fioiii prison wuuld be punished iigiiin. Mr. Rend. There is no piiiity. Sir James Allen said tlint 'i'o man hnd won t>u;ii*lio(l twice* ui.-lcss ]-,i had offended against the law twice. Mr. jJead: You might as -.vnll say that a Parliament uf men cciildinike a criiiie of hymn-singing. Sir Jinnies Allen: If you wish' to spenk I will sit down. Mr.. Head: We may as well have a fair stnipiC'Piil', anywny. Sir James Allen said that the men had been committed to gaol ns i> deterrent against men brenkinj the law in future. In a democratic coantry like New ZeaTand they must have law and order, and those men ware in praol because they had broken the law. He had not irblied to put them iu gaol; lie would much rather that they had gone io the front and saved tho married men. Mr. Hoberts had stilled that t!io gaol wns not n tj!acp. for honourable men. He i:uitn lgvwd with Mr. Jiouerls, Imt !ip did not rliiiic thnt a man wns honourable who, viici his country's existence was at stake, dk\ not stind by his ciMintry. Mr. Kobeits: Lloyu tiuorge did iwt "-s-v that. Sir James Allen: I am not (iiinti'.ir: Mr. Lloyd Clccrge. I am giving my own opinion. ; Mr. li'raser: We will take it for what it is worth, Sir .lame's. Sir James Allen said thnt ho did not think it a. small policy to call upon every imin to rtefoDil his country when it wns ,jn dnngp--

The Quakers and the Othsrs. He was sorry to hear from Mr. Fr.vser that the Quakers, whose conscientious objections were based on religion, refused to take advantage of the bonnl set up. He had never been very vindictive about conscientious objectors himself. He had tried to Ret a clause inserted in tho original Bill to give them some latitude, but the House had been very detormmed that every man should be called upon to do his duty. As soon ns the arinislii.e wns siened a movement was made to set up a board lo inquire whether some of those, j interned for relieious objections comd not be released. These conscientious ob- j ieetors had all had the opportunity of doiup ambulance work, but some of tnem hurt' refused to do evni. that. He was beine asked to release these men now. A boiird had been set un to release thnso men who were bona fide religious objectors, hut there were men in internment who wore purely defiant objectors. It vjs not conscience that was guidim; thnm. He was afraid that there wptr some of 'hem who wor» downright shirkers. Mr. Roberts-. Do you Winnie them? Sir James Allen mi id that he did rot blnme those whose temperament was such dint they quaked at the prosp°ct of bittle, but he blamed those who allowed their fcmpprnme«« to rule them in filch matters. Many men who quaked at ihp. thought of going over the parapet had enne as bravely ns any of the ntllon. Thpse were the' men to be admire;!. He had asked one of the men whom he saw nt the nrisoii—he had tried to nav something pleasant to all of'them—"Are you not sor,ry to be here?" "No," tho man replied. "I nm only enrry I _ was caught." That man was a defiant shirker. M~V: Seniple: He was honest. Sir .TnniPS Allen: But his honesty displayed liis character, and I dnn t see why that man should be released. Mr. Puny: He was more honest than the profiteer. A Possibility. Sir James AUenl said that tho British Government might declare a general amnesty when peace wns declared, and the New Zealand Government might be influenced by that, but he had no promise to make in regard to the matter. Tho Government had a duty to perform to the men who had gone, and to the men who would be looking for employment when they came back. The conscientious objectors had escaped all the perils of those who had gone to tlic front. . Mr. Eraser: They have been in prison, and that is unpleasant. Sir James Allen: But they have escaped the dangers and difficulties of those men who had been to the front. If I let these men out I shall be treating them better than the men at the flV.it whom "X should bo glad to eel back nt once, but cannot. If I let these men out they might take the jobs that the men at the front will want wheli they come bnck. Mr. Fraser: That is a paltry objection. Minister Asks a Question. Sir James Allen: Are you glad the war was won? A member of the deputation: It depends oii whether the war is really won. The war may bo won from your point of Air. Fraser: All must be glad that)the war has been won. ' .- Sir James Allen: All must bo glad that, the war has been won. If the policy, of Australia had been adopted throughout the rest of the Empire, and conscription had not been adopted iii England and the other Dominions and the United Slates, should we have won "the wnr? Members of the deputation: Yes, yes. Sir James Allen: We would not have won. "We should have had the Ger-! man heel on our Jiecks to-day. ■ Mr. Parry: We should havo roleased the troops from Ireland, anyhow. Sir James Allen said that he was convinced that the Government had interpreted the feeling of the people of New Zealand by carrying the most democraliv measure that when men \yere called upon (o defend their country, all, rich and poor alike, should have to go. A member of (he deputation: There were a lot of rich who dodged it in New Zealand. Sir James Allen: They did not dodge it if I could help it. There were some who dodged, and we are trying to get hold of (hem. Their names are on the defaulters' Hot, and they will tako their gruel if they are caught, just ns much ns tho others. The Minister added that he Mis prepared to deal with those who had honest consciences, honest conscientious objections, but not with those who had developed n conscience when the war began. Wide Discretion to be Used. Mr. Fraser: Would you treat a man who is an international, and who objects to war on (hat ground, tho some as,the man who bases his objections on religion? . Sir James Allen said that he was prepared to give (i very wide interpretation to the term "religions objector." He would do what he could for those who were honest objectors immediately. Mr. Semple: If Christ had come to tho earlli (luring the war, nnd delivered that sermon on the Mount, he would havj been put in gaol. Sir James Allen: No, we would not have put him in gaol. , I wish Christ could have been on earth. I believe His presence might have' prevented the war. The Germans act on His. principles. Mr. Hiram Hunter mentioned the case of Noel Goldsborough, a Quaker, who was in prison not for breaking the Act,, but because lie refused to go ( up for medical examination, which was not required by the Act of Quakers. Sir James-Allen: I don \ agree with you. But at any rate his case will will come up before the board. Mr Fraser. in thanking the Minister for having received the deputation, said that a petition had been signed by the returned soldiers in Auckland asking for the rekuse of the conscientious objectors. Persons who had lost sons at the front had sons in prison as conscientious objectors. Sir James Allen said he would try In deal with the honest conscientious objector, and to get him out of prison if he could.