MR. MASSEY ON DEFENCE.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1923, 4 December 1913, Page 4

MR. MASSEY ON DEFENCE.

UNRELIABLE FIGURES. REASON FOR CHANCED POUCY. Til.' Hon. AY. V, Massey (l'riuin Minister; agree.! with Sir Joseph AYurd thai il was desirable that questions of naval defence, ought to be raised above »:i:-iv strife. The policy of the C'overn"raciiii had boon made abundantly clear by the Minister nf JMcuce, who bad !<'o.ked into the question of naval doI'onee very fully, and who was also a patriotic citizen of the Dominion and of ihe Umpire. The policy of New Zealand iiad been a policy of contribution M the Navy, and up till iho present Ibis policy iiad been quite right. Out in ISK)!) an arrangement was mado when ilic Iml.Uc-criiiser was banded over to lb" NVy by which the Imperial au-llßj-itick' wore- to phco a • squadron

in tho South Pacific to protect Australia and New iSiMland. Australia iiad gone, in for its own navy, Mid now the' Australasian Squadron'of the Imperially Navy practically did not exist. Only two ships, tbo Psycho and tho Pyramus, remained, and tho Philomel K'rts coming. 'litis was tho position when Air. Alien had gone home to lingland, and this was tlie position to-day. How could tho Government, how could tins honourable the Leader of tho Opposition, ii : ho had been in power, have been satisfied with this position? The Government would not linvo been doing its duty if it had expressed its satisfaction with such measure, of protection as those ships could ulford. Tho hon. gentleman had said we could not afford a local navy, lio {.Mr. Massey) was surprised to- hear such a, pessimistic utterance, after some of the optimistic, speeches ho had made, -especially at the time oil the offer of the Dreadnought. And tho Dominion had progressed sinco then. However, tho Bill did not propose an increase of one shilling more than tho £100,000 already paid by contribution, and the giving of our young men an opportunity to ho trained to servo on ships of war would bo doing a good thing for them, and a good thins for tho Navy. Nor would tho Naval Adviser who was to command tho Philomel, cost tho country a single additional shilling. Possibility of Protection From Homo. The lion, gentleman had said that if tho Government had not offered to provide tho defence of tho tho New Zealand coast, tho Imperial authorities would have afforded us more protection. Put would they? After the 1909 agreement was wade, no attempt was made to carry it out, even in tho threo yean before the hon. gentleman went out of oilice. 'fiio Admiralty had, in fact, do« dined to send to New Zealand any llristol cruiser because tlicro were no enemy ships of nearly equal power in these, waters. Mr. Witty: No need for them hose. Mr, Massey: That's a matter of opinion. He went on to show that Sir Joseph Ward's figures as to tlie. cost of tho Bristol was £'201.000. The actual annual cost of the Bristol at British raws of wagos would he i' 72,000. Tlie "Change of Polity." ' The hen. gentleman had asked who was responsible for tho change of polivy. Ho would ask tho honourable gentleman, as a party to tho agreement of liiuy, who wb3 responsible for that agreement not- being carried out. So anxious wero tho present Government to hold by that arrangement that they actually offered £50,000 per annum if the Imperial Government would send to New Zealand two Bristol cruisers. Mr. Witty: When was that offer made. Mr. Massey: it was mado in' tho i present year. Tho hon. the Leader of I tho Opposition had, he said, tried to leave tho impression that what was pro--1 posed was a local or sectional navy. As a matter of fact, what was proposed was that our ships should belong to tho Imperial Navy. It was clearly laid down in tho Bill that whenever war broke out tho New Zealand ships should become Imperial ships, Directly tho first shot was fired tho ships became part of the Imperial Navy, There was no such provision in the Australian Act. lie- thought there should be, but it was si matter for tho Australian people. Speaking of the Admiralty authorities quoted by Sir Joseph Ward as being opposed to the- policy of uuildinc up colonial navies, Mr. Massey said "that Lord Twccdmouth had stated thai while, in tho opinion of tho (Imperial) Government, tho distribution of tho fleet must be governed by strategical rcquirehicuti/it'wouhr.hi'ii groat assistance'if the' colonial Governments would undertake to provide, for local service, small vessels useful against possible, raiders, and also equip decks and refitting establishments which might bo used by His .Majesty's ships. 'Coaiincr and supply stations would also bo useful. Mr, Winston Churchill had saltf that it seemed to him not unlikely that tne development of the next ten years would be the growth of effoctivo iiava'l forces in the groat Dominions overseas. Mr. Churchill had spoken also or a division of labour render which tho Mother Country would maintain seasupremacy against all-coniern at tiro decisive point, while the Dominions guarded and controlled all tfio rest of the British limpiro. Sir J. Ward: Yes, but he'did not agree with tho proposals all tho same. Mr, Massey: This is the speech o. Mr. Chw-oliiil First Lord of the .ulimralty uchvered in Loudon last year Ho went on to remark that Mr' M Kenna, another First lord of the Admiralty, had said: "It lias, however long been recognised that in deliniii" tne conditions under which tlie naval <V°feiice of the. Empire must, bo developed other conditions than thnso of strategy fiicnc must bo taken into account." P.-o-from this statement, Mr, -U Jy'iina had expressed 1 a hope that it mmhl ho possible to develop colonial naval forces'. The Prim* .Minister s«id that ho had taken tho three authoviiie's quoted by Sir J. Ward, and everyone of them had declared in favour of inspenal and colonial navies. The. London "limes" had said that it had Song.been recognised that the maximum of power was not. going to bo gained nndor tho system of contributions, and that tho Dominions as they developed wero bound to insist, sooner or later, upon having navies of their own.

Canada, East and West. It was not quite certain yet, Sir. Massey continued, w'Jiat Canada was going to do, but thorn was no parallel between the Eastern Coast of Canada and Nov; Zealand, because that coast of Canada was fully protected by t'lw British Meet. He believed that the Canadians would cciuq to realise the wisdom of building up a naval force for the protection of their western seaboard. Referring to what Sir J. Ward had said about tlio Imperial Flying Squadron, based on Gibraltar, the Prime Minister pointed out that it took a warship two weeks to go from Gibraltar to Capo Town, thro." weeks from Gibraltar to Honolulu, 23 days from Gibraltar to Vancouver, and 32 days from Gibraltar to Now Zealand. A Partnership Doftiod. Sir J. Wr.rd had accused Jii. Allen of attempting to work a partiiershiu with Australia. Ho had no right to make such a statement. The Aus'tntliaii Government had never approached the New Zealand Gotoriimwit in regard to naval defenco during the term Of the present Government, Me hoped and believed that the relations of ilie two countries would lie of the friendliest possible character for all time, aw! that if the. need arose, olio country would help the oilier, but thorn had never been the slightest s\i;»fios(-ioti of partnership. 11 Now Zealand inaiio a commencement now, the. Prime- Minister continued, the day would come whop the Now Zealand Navy would bo something to bo reckoned with. The Imperial Parliament. j Sir. Jlassey said that Sic had no faith ' in the Imperial Parliament proposal, i hut ho considered that the Imperial Conference should assemble more ire- | qiumtly—that it should itroct not on« i in four years, but oneo every two years:. I Also, the Conference sliouid'meet some- i times in Nio. Overseas Dominions, in ] Australia, Canada, and New Zealand. | It would benefit Imperial statesmen as ■ inueli to visit the Dominions as it benefited Dominion statesmen to visit Groat Britain. Ho behoved that thu Empire would lie maintained by sentiment, by j the ties of kinship, the ties of race, and ! the wnfide'.ice of the. people in the Em- i pirn itself. This, he believed, was what, ninety-nine out of every Tiundivd of the people of New Zealand wove 1,™!.-;,„, f„,-„.,,.,l i„

"Non-Party Lines." Mr. G. W. Russell (Avon) said thai lio desired to deal nii.it the subject oil non-parly lines. If ihe Gowi-iuut'iit, in the first instance, had submitted iln proposals to a conimhtco coiiMstiiij; <ii' representatives of both sides of Iho House, it would liavo avoided (he possibility uf anything in tins simps of a party collision. lie went on to argue, that tho Bill did not, only provide for a training-ship, but it presumed the existence, of a local navy. Undeclared cmpbalicaily, also, that there would he no going back upon a system of naval defence once cm barked upon. Again, it was apparently intended our young country should become a lecnuliii;;;groutul for tho British Navy, while at the same time Wo were importing boys and youths for tho work necessary for t'ho development of tho country. Sarely it was not good policy to draw upon the virile, youth-of this young country for service in the Navy while there wero in tho Homeland thousands of exactly Ik; class of youths in riie congested cities suited for scrvi-co in the .Navy, Now Zealand was already spending the. huge sum of 15s. per head on defence, and for what? Where was tho enemy coming from? Mr. Wilson: A Liberal Government did it. . Sir. Thissoll, Oh, don't introduce, that. He endeavoured to show tffn't there was no danger to New Zealand and Australia of invasion by Japan, lie maintained that we, as children of the Mother Country, hud a, right to expect protect km by tho Matber Country against- sea foes until wo wore able to protect ourselves. On no account should we ally ourselves with Australia, and this ho'believed was excoedingly probable under the present scheme. Whatever out expenditure on Naval Defence might be it should como- ; off tho present cost of our present land defences, Wo could not go on with tins mad scheme of increasing defence expenditure agiunst invisible foes. If ;we worn to go"in for Naval Defence wo should havo our own submarines and aircraft .with a naval base at Qiie.cn Cbnrlotto Soimd. ADMIRALTY NOT IMMUTABLE.' NEGLECTING THE PROVINCES. - The Hon. W. 11. Uerries (.Minister of Railways) said lion members on the. other side of tho House had been declaiming against the Government policy as if they were going in lor i!m whole paraphernalia of ;i local Haw, whereas the lid! was only a little Dill providing for tho expenditure of tins samo £100,000 now paid to the Admiralty iii subsidy. As a matter of fact, if tho Admiralty had carried out the arrangement of 1000 there would have been no need for the present Bill, It the Admiralty had cent tho Bristol cruisers out tho Government would nuv have proposed to build one, and if i.i-,ts Admiralty yet sent out those- cruisers the Government did not intend- to »q on with tlia «oiistr-(Kdioii of a ship," 'The. Jacfc was that the policy of the British Admiralty changed, following as it had of recent years ;i siig-zag ohmh-. Tho policy of tho Admiralty depended upon tho fortunes of political parties, and was therefore not so stable,' and not so. much to bo depended upon as lion«ttrabk> gentlemen opposed to the Bill wished to tir<*e. Kb recounted what had happened after Iho g;it of the battle-cruiser New Zealand. Jnrst, it had boon intended that tho ship should lit:, an addition to the Navy, but tho effect had been that tho Ad-' mlralty had reduced their building programme. Also the Admiralty had been the first to suggest that Die" New Zealand be withdrawn from the ChinaSquadron unci placed in Home watcra. The.need, for.protection [py our cuniinci'Coi,wa6 great, for cw.i a'rerv small' squadron cotild wort; untold havoc by attacking unprotected sea-borno commerce.

Sclf-fiflltancc tits Proper Policy. Again lie believed a ndi'-reliani policy .was the proper policy far tho colonics to pursue. JJo did not say that tlw colonies should go ou building Ijaltloships to vie with tlio Japancs© Navy.-It was quite incorrect to say that' tho Pacific had in it any considerable lirilish naval force. AVe depended far our protection ou alliances, but alliances were broken reeds. SVar was' never declared nowadays. Ships came round, took up a 'good strategic posiHon, and then hostilities weio opened. Over and over again tho Admiralty had neglected the outside, provinces. It was owinut to such neglect of tho Admiralty thai the French fleet was able to farce Lor/ Cornwallis .to surrender at Yorktown and tho result of that reverse hni boon tilo loss of tho North America) ct'louios., What the present Govern' ment wished was that the Admhnltj would carry out the lOOiJ agreement, but the present, policy of tho Admiralty was to keep all their ships in the North Sea. Against a Local Navy. Mr. T. 31. Wilfard (Mutt) said lie was absolutely against a local i;avy on tho New Zealand. - coasts. The disiutojjrat tion of any nation might begin on its most remote, frontier, and it.behoved good citiseiis of tho British Empire to see that the, effect of the establishment of local navies d.i'i not make for disintegration. His reading led him to believe chat Hnteiu's supremo desire, was to oatpurc India, and that Japan Md designs on Australia, but neither of these two nations could consummate those desires unless tho BtitisV Navy were overwhelmed in tho North Keii .Tbo danger in tho Bill was that it obyionriy contemplated the possibility ef the. Government being given power to build ships awl commit tho country to an expenditure which it could not afford. Mr. Allen.- Is thero any authority to pavr .Mr. Wilford admitted that the. Government would require the authority of ravUament to pay. 3'lr. Allen: What's the good et.lallunjj nonsense then? Mr. Wiiford contended l!iat rather than form n local navy wo should double our contribution to the Navy. He appealed ''to the Minister to withdraw the Isilt. About "Naval Spasms*" The Hon. i 7. 3d. B, J/isher CMiuisfer of Marine) said that in his judgment tho object of tho overs?* dominion* should 'be to relieve those guiding tho destinies of the Empire of some of tm> anxieties involved in '.wising after the outlving dominions, lie did not believo in Hav.'i! r.pnsms—the siviii)', of twit millions in one vosr, and nothing for lijUen yenrs.' He had never believed in 'contributions, the poiicv .which meant asking the Mother Country to light, for 1 ii?, and not with lis. No ritiKrn ot this conntrv could deny the value e! t,w sentimental tie binding firs country la the Motherland. Now we were lo have, si sense of pronrietorsbijv which we had never had before What had been tii" ■ohiect of H-h ' Joseph Ward's proposals ftl'thc Imiie-rial Coiilevcncc' To get rid of contribution without representation. Tl'ot ulterly mad scheme had been tMrnod'dmvn bv Mr. Asquilb. One proposal he welcomed in the IWI was that. winch movkiod that in tho event oi tne ueolamiion of war dory ship in the conin.l of the Nov Haaiaud Government should automatically l'-'f .'"V 1 ' control of I'f'.ts .British Admiiahy. iliis tt'is f'r i» advance of anvtltiiiK in the. Australian Act. The ohjeci. of the Aus-ti-i'ian fleet and other local navois was not 'to give battle to sovereign navies Mich as that of Japan; Inst ilic etioci otthat navy being on Ilw const of AuMi-a- 1 lia was that an altaekmg na\y wouM" have, to leave its base at least ihrcotimes as strong as the Australian !kei. iu order to bo sure of success. e Pactfie Fleet of tho Future. Although' we were only to have oiwship, be hoped to s-'e. in twenty-five'.' years' lime a squadron nn the wcr-tern 1 - ocnnt of Canada, squadrons on tiro coasts of Australia, South Africa, and

New Zealand, with such a .power of concentration that would enable tho Dominions oversea, to say to tho Mothe; Country, "You look after the heart ol the Empire at Home, and wo shall protect our own commerce." Where had the policy of contribution landed us in the past? In spite of our increasing naval contribution, tho force protecting Australasia had been steadily reduced, until now it consisted of only three ships of low power. On the other hand, tlio' Bristol cruiser which was to conio hero was a very fine typo of ship. If instead of presenting a Dreadnought v.o had purchased four Bristol cruisers wo should have- been far better off, and tliey could have been maintained for an expenditure of some SJoQfiQti more than our present expenditure on Naval defence. Tho Hon. tho Leader of tho Opposition had quoted figures which were about as unreliable as wero the figures ho had quoted in support of tho land defence scheme, of which ho (Sir Joseph Ward) claimed to bo the author. As to-tho necessity for Ne.v Zealand to tako this step it was a fact that while tho Imperial Government had been able t> keep at tho two-power standard up till tho present, tho race was now so strenuous that Britain might soon he unable to maintain this standard. The increasing inferiority of the British Fleet to the combined fleets of all other European powers was so marked that the paramount position of the Navv could not bo maintained by England alone without too severely taxing her resources. Who know what war .cloud was going to burst? How unready was England for tho South African War? And how much had her unreadiness cost her? For what war had England ever been ready? Ho had never read of any war for whii ii England was ready, and ho had never known of any British possession which had been captured when left to its own resources. On tho other hand, ho had known colonies • relying on the protection of the Home authorities to fall. Iho Bill contained tlio germ of a great idea, tho idea of responsibility. It ought to be our policy to relieve tho Mother Country of some of her burdens, and to bo able to say to her, "Wo will look after this part of tho Empire, and keep it red." ~ „ m Mr. T. .K. Sidcy (Diuieu'in Saudi) said tho Admiralty wore opposed to loe.nl navies. Ho was not in favour ct the Government's proposal.

i Soma possibilities. Mr. G. M. Thomson (Dunedin North) disagreed with a contention' by • the member for Hulfc that Australia was a littoral Country which stood in greater need of naval defence than New Zealand, because its population if driven inland from the sea-coast would starve. The exact converse was true. New Zealand was a littoral country, •■inasmuch a-, one part of its population could get far awav from the coast, and surrounded as she was by water naval defence, was essential. Some members who had spoken had failed to take- account of tlio probability that twenty-live years henceevery Dreadnought would have reached the scrap-heap, and the world would have entered an era of acria warfare. Ho suggested that it would bo possiblo to "ivo a certainamount of naval trauiin<°to considerable numbers of. young n'"n at tho principal ports, which would bo of use if-they chose to volunteer for the Navy later on. Such a service in his opinion, would bo extremely popular. Ho hoped that this country would yet prove itself one of the best training grounds for tho Imperial Navy. '

Wanted a Mandate. Mr. J. Hanan (Invcrcargill) said that the proposal of tho Government was to form a local navy. Mr. Allen: A local unit of tho imperial Navy. Mr Hanan contended that the House had no authority to embark upon a new naval policy.,by establishing., a. local navy. The proposals in the Bill should, for 'that reason, be held over. Tho Hon. D. Buddo (liaiapoi) expressed his strong dissent to tho proposals contained in the Bill. Mr. A. Harris (Waitcinata) supported tho Bill. Ho advocated, however, the construction of destroyers and submarines instead of one vessel of the Bristol type. Mr: A. E. Glover (Auckland Central) and; Mr. J; V. Brown (Napier) were tho last speakers before the Minister replied. MINISTER IN REPLY, THE BOGY OF EXPENSE. The Hon. J. Allen rose to reply at 0.55 a.m. Tho only argument ho was called upon to meet, ho said, was that relating to possiblo expense. But thero was no proposal in tlio Bill which involved expenditure. There was no proposal in the Bill to acquire any ship at all except on loan., What was proposed in the Bill was that tho training of personnel should continue, and should be increased, and should bo under the administration of New Zealand and not under the administration of tho Admiralty. "This was tho main proposal in tlio Bill, and it- involved no increase in expenditure. Honourable gentlemen had ignored the Bil. Tho Leader of the Opposition had ignored it. Sir Joseph Ward had said ho was in favour of training our own personnel. Ho (Mr. Allen- would invite tho Leader of tho Opposition then to vote for tho Bill. If next year there wero other proposals those honourable members could vote against them. But if they 'voted against this Bill, then they wero going to vote against New Zealand training New Zealand men for service in tho Navy, .and against our own people having any say at all in tlio expenditure of our own money. f!>.i claimed tho votes of tho other side on tho ground that they must vote that New Zealand should have a say in the training of New Zealand men, and in the control of tlio New Zealand naval reserve. He'wished to ask lion, members on tho other side whether they would have any objection oven if it beeamo necessary in tho future to increase expenditure upon naval defence. Ho did not hear one voice raised in objection. Tho maintenance a Bristol cruiser would not cost £100,000 per annum. With £150,000 a year it would be possiblo to run the trainingship and a cruiser as well. What the Opposition really objected to was New Zealand having a say in handling its own aliairs. They wanted to hand the whole thing oyer to the British Government. Ho did not call that patriotic, for ho believed in New Zealand shouldering its own responsibilities. If hon. members on tho other side voted against tho Bill they were voting against Nov/ Zealand controlling ihn expenditure of its own money and tho training of its own personnel. As to what had been r.ai dabnut Mr. Churchill he probably sometimes changed his opinions. No doubt he was influenced b;- Iho First Sea Lord, who was opposed 1.0 the idea- of local r.aval squadrons. On tin; other hand, .many responsible men with whoih he had been in communication hcid an opinion opprr.jfcp. to that of tlio Kirst Sea Lord. The limit upon the number of men recruited would depend upon tho amount ot money available to pay them, lie hoped that it would be possible lo enrol eightv men during the coming year. Mr. Russell had objected that the Bill would siako New Zealand a recruiting ground to" tho British Navy. Was it not a fact that Sew Zealand was I'o-.v a recruiting ground for tho British Navy? The only difference under the Bill was' that New Zealand would bring its own men under its own administration. He considered that it was the duty of every Dominion to provide men —as well as ships and money —for the defence of tho Empire. Mr.-X'raigio: Wo don't object to giving tho men. Mr. Allon: Some nf you do. Tho member for Avon does. He had never proposed, as llic member

for Avon had said, that New Zealand siiips should form part of the Australian Navv. It had always been made clear that New Zealand must have control of her own ships. He would ask those honourable members who said we should rely on the protection of the British ileet what, protection the. Pyramus and the Psycho were? ' Mr. Wilford: No uso at nil. Mr. Allen: That is what the British Government is jiroyiding for us. Mr. Wilford: Then it is a disgrace. Mr. Allen said lie did not admit that these small ships were useless—tliey served a verv useful purpose in protecting commerce, but one Bristol cruiser would servo a more useful purpose, than the Pvramus and the Psycho together. Referring to tlio talk about big lighting ships lie was not prepared to say that tho Dreadnought would bo the fighting machine of tho future. Ho believed their days were limited m number, and he was very glad to think so. Ho explained that as in Australia the training of boys would commenco at the earlv ago of from 13 to 14 years. He repeated his request that honourable members should not treat the Bill as other than it really was. Tho policy in tho Bill was one that should bo acceptable to tho country. The Bill was read a second time by 31 votes to 21. *' Tho Division List. Following was the division list:— Ayes (31): Allen, Anderson, Bell, R, F. Bollard, Campbell, Coatcs, Dickson, Fisher, Eraser, Guthrie, Harris, Herries, Hine, Hunter, Malcolm, Mandcr, Masses', Nosv.orthy, Okey, Pearce, Fomarc, Kced, It. I-I. Rhodes, T. W. Rhodes, Scott,. F. H. Smith, Statham, Sykcs, G. M. Thomson, Wilkinson, Young. Noes (21): Atmore, Brown, Buddo, Buxton, Craigio, Ell, Forbes, Glover, Mac Donald, N'gata, Parata, Robertson, Russell, Seddoh, Sidcy, J. C. Thomson, Veitch, Ward, Webb, Wilford, Witty. Pairs. Ayes: J. Bollard, Buick, Buchanan, Escott, Herdman, E. Newman, Lee, C. K. Wilson.Noes: Colvin, Dickie, Hanan, Isitt, Carroll, It. W. Smith, Clark, T. H. Davey. BILL IN COMMITTEE. A HOSTILE AMENDMENT. The House went into Committee an the Bill. The first, and second clauses were passed unaltered. On Clauso 3, Sir Joseph Ward moved to insert a proviso that the policy of direct contribution to tho British Navy should not be abandoned until the question bad been submitted to tho people.

Mr. Masscy: A Referendum ? , Sir J. Ward said that no mcmbcr,_ so far as ho knew, had pledged himself to his constituents to support a local navy. Ho wanted to have a straight-out issuo upon tho question of severance from the British Navy. Tho proposal in the Bill was to establish a local navy. The amendment was rejected by 31 votes to 21.

Mr. G. W. Russell moved an amendment to strike out from tho clauso which gives tho Governor power to "raise, maintain, and organise such permanent naval forces as he deems necessary," the words, "ho deems necessary." His object was to fix a definite number.

Tho amendment was defeated on tho voices.

Mr. G. W. Russell protested against the clause relating to enlistment in the service, by which it was proposed that if a youth joined the forco beforo he was 21 years of age his enlistment would be binding after his majority until tho expiry of his term. The, Hon. J. Allen said tho clauso was not really a dangerous one. Tho enlistment was purelyTohincary,,,and, it. was provided'that if a'My'wished to join the forco beforo ho was 21 years of ago tho consent of his parent or guardian had to be obtained. Mr. Russell then moved that the subclause he had referred to be struck out. Tho amendment was rejected by 31 votes to 16. (Left Sitting.)