NEW ZEALAND & THE NAVY

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1923, 4 December 1913, Page 4

NEW ZEALAND & THE NAVY

PKOBLEfi : OF' :: THE PACIFIC

OUR ,-KAVAtv- : P.Q.IMi..DEBATED

THE ADMIRALTY'S;;ATTITUDE.

E^'-iM":rßi^.

What will probably rank as the most important debato of the'.'prescnt session; of Parliament.commei;es(j of Representatives'j'ost.eYda.yvaf ternoon, when tho Naval 'Defeuco'BiU camo up for second reading. •. Tho ■' Hon. Jas. Allen (Minister of Defenco) opened tho debate with a speech, in tho course of which.ho.outlined.jS'cw.-Zealand's .first, connection with the Imperial Navy, and throw a great deal of light upon' ; tlio present-day policy, and attitude,, p,f the British Admiralty. For tho rest, tho Minister'statcd'in detail, tho naval defence proposals of■•,tho. New -, ..Zealand Govornnicnt. His speech in the main was a- strongly-worded plea. fof-solf->-reliant effort by the Oversea Dominions, subject always to tho''undivided''control of tho,navy by the Imperial Government. ' The Pfimo Minister and several of his colleagues,, together with the Leader of tho Opposition (Sir J. Ward), and a numbor of his-principal followers, took part in tho debate which followed. ................. -

The Hon. J. Allen, Minister of Defence; moved the secciid reading'of-tho' Naval Defence Bill. The Bill, he said, was an important one,.for tho reason that it altered' to' so'mo extent tho policy of tho N&\y Zealand Government with regard to naval matters. Hitherto New Zealand had been satisfied with the payment of a subsidy of £100,000 a, year to tho British Government; and had had 'no say in • the disposition 'of that money. Tho proposal of tho Bill was to mako an alteration "with'regard to tho'payment of tho subsidy) and to enter upon a rather different policy in naval matters'for tho ; future. "Boforo ho went on.to deal with tho Bill itself, it was perhaps.right to put the Ho'uso in possession of tho opinions of tho Admiralty upon' the; attitudo that; the various Dominions should adopt with regard to this" particular question. To do this, ho need not go further back than 1909, when representatives of tho various Dominions yi'ero invited to London to discuss'questions-of'naval^and : military defence. . Ho would.refer first to the roport of tho Nayal and Military Conference of 1909. This report shbwod that tho view, of the Admiralty then was' that if the; problem,of' naval defence wero .a problem of strategy only it would bo best to have ono Imperial Fleet to which all tho Dominions would contribute according to their resources and according to their needs."" '

W(iat,"Sing|B Navy" Means. ' But ho was afraid that in tho minds of tho Admiralty a singlo navy had como to'', mean a navy .in tho North Sea and UL'thevMcditerraueariii In 1909.th0 Admiralty had certainly thought that portion of tho' Imperial Navy should bo located in Pacific waters. Tho Admiralty had then further stated, howovor, that in considering naval defence there woro other'considerations, than'those' of strategy. Tho circumstances of tho various oversea Dominions had to, bo borno, in mind, for room must bo found for the expression of tho 2iationali sontiment that had grown iip iii those Dominions. Tho simple, .contribution,,,of money' or -materiel: might bo. best. : for ono Dominion, the establishment of a local navy might bo best for another, and tho host for a third might bo'tho undertaking . of certain local "services which would relieve-the British Exchequer of certain burdens. Tho Admiralty had- further ,stated, that the foundation of futuro Dominion navies in different parts of tho Empiro would contribute to the requirements of Imperial .defence. . TMs statement was' very significant, and ho wished .honourable znombers to bear it in. mind-in the courso of tho .. ~i,i< , i. The Admiralty's o

Tho proposal now iii tho Bill was to" | set up a iNow Zealand force, ■' and to commonce tho training of our own personnel. AVhether or not New Zealand later, acquired ships of her own would be a question for ruturo sessions, or <or futuro' 'Parliaments or Governments to docido'. The Prime Minister had intimated that tho make a proposal to Parliament .next year to. build a Bristol..cruiser" 'for.ourselves,but the present Bill .dealt only \jitlv'tho;| proposal to train:sofrio'of our'own Now- 1 Zealand men to become a portion of the naval forces 1911 a further conferenceiwa&Txclcij and Shut, was an ImperialvGo'hfiSrciTca'., In opening that Conference, Mr. A'squith, discussing the question of centralisation or disintegration, in reference to ibe Empire, said': "Just in' proportion r-.< centralisation was seen to bo increasingly absurd, so has disintegration been felt to bo increasingly jmpossiblo., ~,Whf>-, thcr iu this United' Kingdo m', pi' ln'nno of tho great'cohimiiuities ydu fepre's'onii, we each of us are, and each of us intend to remain, master, in, our .own,,household. This 13 "hero 'at Homo; ; anil' throughout the Dominions the life-blood, of our politics." ' Hei(Mi\: Allen) .wished to call honourable .members', ..attention Jo this, as coming from tho Prosi'deut of this Imperial Conference, and tho Prime Minister, of Great Britain.: "Wo each of,us, any and, each of,us ill-, tend to . roinajn, master, in our own household." Ahd'Mr'. A'squith'•'added this also: "It is none the less,,true,, that wo intend to remain units indeed, but units in a greater unit." Coming to tho prosont year, he had been told that it rested with the -esponsible Governments of "tlio' Domiii-' ions to determine what they thought' best for their.own interests, .and he had been assured—he was perfectly 'certain tho assurance was thoroughly meantthat whatever New Zealand.decided i<> do. tho Mother Country and tha-Atll- - would assist in every way pos-' sible. Then,he camo.to tho,.furthir declaration made in 1913. Ho had been told that tlio Admiralty realised the im» portance of creating a naval sentiment in the Dominions, of creating'• reserves of personnel, which, were, .so valuabje, .and of maintaining naval establishments which wore essential to the full mobil" itv and employment of the Imperial Fleet. Ho More.Expenditure. The Government's; 'present proposals did not go in tho direction of large establishments. He, wished to make this clear in order to meet tho criticism that tho Bill would commit New Zealand to a'. further heavy expenditure. .. Tho Bill ,did not cohimit New Zeal.iiid to mofe-than the present 'subsidy <if £100,000 together, of course, with tho payment of-interest and sinkin" fund on tho cbst ; of tho Dreadnought cruiser—a total of nearly a quarter of a million per year. The. Government did propose tp create a personnel, and to bring it into existence under tho administration of tho Now Zealand Government, iu order that New Zealandci'B might keep in touch with their own

MPEiMES DETAILS.

men who wore being trained for the .defence,.of ~tho Empire, and with tho Mreation of ■ a Naval Reserve. It was •iiot proposed to go in for any largo expenditure on ship 3 or docking accommodation. All that tho Government proposed to do was to carry out tho requirements of tho Admiralty to niako the dock at Auckland lit to do the work likely to bo required of it by. the Admiralty in future. Ho thought everybody'i'woulu agreo that the AdTniralty" wore extremely anxious that tho various' Dominions should rcaliso their own national sentiments and ideals, always working towards the ono •common, .purpose. Changes of Policy. . /At the "1909 Conference it was evident that tho definition the Admiralty then had in their minds of tho "Ono Imperial'.'Fleet" was not ono Imperial Fleet in, f f:ho, North Sea or the Mediterranean/ At that Conforenco the British Prime 'Minister had said tho proposal, I .!va'Si,.to establish a Pacific Fleet of three" units, to bo located in tho East-Indies, Australian, and China Seas:;-' Hc''(Mr. Allen) wished honourable' members to understand that in Jetting up this Pacific Fleet it was proposed that -each of the three units should largo lighting battleship. Tho necessity for a Pacific Fleet was then fully recognised. In discussing 'questions lot 1 strategy, therefore, honourable members must not bo led away witlr-tho -idea that tho only sound strategic position was a fighting fleet in the North Sea. In 1909 it was recognised by tho Admiralty that there was necessity for a fighting fleet in tho Pacific.'''.. Mr. 'Russell: Against what enemy ? Mr. Allen: That in not the point. I don't think I should disclose enemies until enemies disclose .themselves. ... Canada's Position. Ho went on to say that tho arrangement for a Pacific Fleet was part of tho arrangement mado with Australia and Now Zealand. Nothing was then said about Canada, but in the subsequent arrangements mado with Canada the proposal was to build a small'fleet of cruisers to go on both tho Atlantic and Pacific sides. Honourable members knew what had been taking place in Canada in the last twclvo months. A3 an outsider interested in the Empire ho. would say that tho right policy for Canadians to have followed was to mako a considerable contribution to tho British Fleet for tho particular reason that the Atlantic shores of Canada were undoubtedly protected by the Fleet in tho North Sea, and tho Fleet in tho Mediterranean, and if any one of tho Dominions owed anything'to tho Imperial Squadron in the North Sea.it was the Dominion of Canada. Ho was perfectly suro that' Canada would never bo satisfied, ami ho did not think Canada ought to be satisfied with this arrangement. Canada' would go further, as Australia had gone further, and as ho believed Now Zealand would go further, than tho policy of subsidy.

Where ths Dominions Stand. . Tho Minister went on to allude to the passed by tlio Canadian Parliament in March, 1909, when it declared for local naval preparations as against-a," system of contributions to the Imperial Treasury. Ho would say no fnoro about tho Canadian attitude than that he hoped the day would como when the Canadians would seo that it was to their benefit to join hands with the MctljbV..' Country, Australia, and New Zealand,;iti providing for tho mora ado* quato" defence of tho Pacific The attitude of Australia was known to everybody. In. the agreement between tho Mother Country and Australia very significant !\vords occurred which embodied not-only tho policy of Australia but tho 'policy of.thn Mother Country as well. Sir Joseph Ward: No they don't. 1 differ from you absolutely. Mr. Allen said that tho words wore: "Tho Australian Fleet unit shall con--sist-of-part of tho Eastern Fleet of Empire." Sir J. Ward: They (the Imperial axi'Jliigltics") will enter into the same Sgreenidnt. ~with you, but they don't Ik'llevo iif' ; it-all the same, and you know it. :'<'', i . — Mr. Allen: "Part of the Eastern Fleet of the Empire"—carrying out the ■policy tl|tit tho British Prime Minister doS}»r<id;i'for when ho declared for a •Koine!! IJleet. Tho Minister continued that tho scheme ho was outlining pro. vided for tho defence of tho Pacific as wolj-'.qsr the'defence of the North Sea. Australia'fiacl carried out its agree'rh'oh't,''and''more than carried it out. It had' h'btulvcd tho Mother Country .alp,tho; ojsspt from a payment of ,£250j000 a year, which it was to have made for'-'some years towaids tho support! ."o'fjithc Australian unit. Australia ha,d .completed, on almost competed, iter'full share of what was cn-'tailed'-under tho agreement of 1909. 'HoiTCtisi'iiot! going into what.she might do iii the, future.

Nov; Zealand's Attitude. ■ Tito:.'attitude of Now Zealand had •Ijceii-fdefilwd' at tho Imperial Naval - Conference-, .of 1909. It was disclosed 'alsVitL' t Vi,letter written in that year by'tho'thoif'Prime Minister (Sir .]. G. Ward). 'This letter spoke of tho .agreement comprehending a unit manned as ".possible, by New Zealanders, and,providing that the annual payment ,of, £1,0(1,000, should bo used first of all iri pacing the difference between tho •ordinary,; Imperial rates and the rates paid to.New. Zealanders serving on tho •China station, tlio balance being placed at .'the disposal of tho Admiralty. Tho proposal'in .the Bill before the House, the Minister remarked, was very similar.'" It was proposed that the annual amount of £100,000 should be devoted 'hVst-of''all.-to tho payment of personnel,., to.meeting dock charges In Auckland, and in the payment of reservists," tho balance being handed over to the Admiralty. Tho arrangement m'ado^ih-1809 between Sir J. Ward and Mr. .M'Konna was that the China ,unit,shpuld bo taken in hand nt once and completed before the end of 1912. It was now the end of 1913, and the only iwrtion of the China unit was tho battleship' New Zealand. He wanted to call attention to the fact, that when Sir J. Ward wrote to Mr. M'Konna in August, 1909, he said: "1 express myself, as'.'.gdii'ierplly satisfied with this arrangement; as :i plan." The strategic plan that ho expressed him self ns'satisfied with in 1909 was I lint tlioro should be three fleet units—the China, Australian, and East Indian— .representing tho naval fighting force iu tho Pacific. This, he commended as a sound strategic plan. So far as ho (Mr. Allen) could gather flw Admiralty opinion varied from time to time as regarded strategy. He wanted

lion, members to look at the matter from tho point of view of Nov/ Zealanders and Australians.

The Ways oS Commerce. It was obvious tliiit tho ways of commerce in tho Pacific Ocean "ami thewaterways of tho sea- must bo kept open. Otherwise Now Zcalamlcrs and Australians could not go to the assistance of any other part of the Empire. Rut there wero other important questions which had been neglected, bocauso Now Zealand statesmen had not been called upon as they ought to be to tako part in dealing with questions of diplomacy affecting foreign nations. .Wore-'members satisfied—were New Zoalandors satisfied—v/itJi tho conditions that prevailed to-day with regard to tho Now Hobridcs and other 'stations in tho Pacific, matters which were of importance to New Zealand and in which the Mother Country—because of tho present position here and her position elsewhere—was unable to help this country in at all? "Supposing, ho continued, "wo wanted, as we New Zealanders do want, a coaling station between here and Panama, what can wo do to get it? If it involves foreign relations or diplomatic questions with another country, .then it is always put to one side. That, 1 say, is not satisfactory to us in these southern seas. AVe- are in the position that tho Moth or Country simply puts tlieso questions on one side when we deem it our duty to force them upon her. Tho proposals of 1909 have been abandoned, and not by Now Zealand. New Zealand has' been guilty of no breach of faith, and Australia has committed no breach of faith, but tho IOC!), agreement lias been abandoned and the Rast Indian unit is not in existence. Tho China unit is not in existence. The only ono in existence is the Australian, unit. Proceeding, the Minister said that it was part of tho arrangement mado by Sir J. G. Ward in 1909 that a portion of tho China unit, should be located in New Zealand waters. This, of course, had also been abandoned. Tho Broken Agreement. The first actual departure from tho agreement was when New Zealand was asked to allow tho battle-cruiser New Zealand to bo utilised by the Admiralty 'otherwise than as the flagship of th» China unit. To this the Government had unreservedly consented. 'When iio went to England ho was under the impression that tho other part of the agreement might possibly be carried out—that tho submarines, Bristol cruisers and destroyers might ho provided and some of them located in Now Zealand waters. Ho had come back to tell Parliament that tho Admiralty did not think submarines wero suitable for New Zealand waters. Submarln3s and Destroyers. It was rather a bold thing for a man who was not an expert to say that ho does not agreo with tho Admiralty, but he wanted to say candidly that he did not agreo with the Admiralty's opinion that submarines wero not suitable for New Zealand waters. ■: Mr. Russell: Hear, hear. Mr. Allen continued that tho Admiralty should not have agreed in 1909 to station submarines in New Zealand if theso craft were unsuitable for Zealand waters. Ho knew something about naval matters from tho theoretical standpoint and he ventured to say that there- was no class of offensive machino moro suitablo for tho Straits between tho two islands of New Zealand than the submarine and tho destroyer. In his opinion it would not bo many years before tho Admiralty would como to tho same conclusion—that theso straits could bo easily defended with destroyers and submarines.

Mr. Isitt: Did.they give,. no,special reason?- ' ".' '." . '•'"' -

Mr. Allen: They said that tho waters wero unsuitable for submarines,, that theso vessels wero difficult to man, difficult to keep in order, and so on. Then, with regard to destroyers, they said that tho harbours of New Zealand did not lend themselves for tho employment, of torpedo craft. I do not say that I agree- with this . opinion. Theso wore given as the main reasons why tho agreement of 11)09 was not carried out.

Aimed Fores and Alliances. Mr. Allen went,on to remark that ho wanted to call tho, attention of- members to the fact that the Eastern possessions of Great Britain were protected nob' only by naval power, but by alliances. As a New Zealandcr ho; was not satisfied that, in years to come, it would be a right and'proper thing for Australians and New Zealanders to rely, not alone upon Umpire naval power, but upon that power backed up by alliances. It was not a satisfactory situation to bo in—most New Zealauders, he thought, would come to that opinion. It was incumbent upon New Zealand to do something towards (jutting itself in such a position that it could rely upon Empire naval power and not upon alliances made by the British Government. Tiiey had been making provision in New Zealand for land defence, which could not bo separated from sea defence cither from 'the point of view of the defence of our own. shores, or from that of the defence of the Empire. Then honourable members knew that they had done something in New Zealand with regard to harbour defence. Fixed batteries had been constructed in certain places. Tho object of these batteries was not coaslland ■ defence. Thoy had been constructed with the object of protecting certain harbours which would servo as harbours of safety to tho mercantile marine, and places where His Majesty's ships could coal and refit. It had been his duty to ascertain from tho Admiralty whether the New Zealand harbour defences wero adequate. f rom their point of view. Of recent years there had developed another kind of harbour defence by submarines and torpedo boat destroyers. Tho Admiralty advised that these wero not requisite in New Zealand at the present time, and, for the time being, New Zealand must accept that advice. Then ca'mo the defence of commerce and sea-going defence provided for by the fighting portion of any naval unit.

The First Duty. New Zealand's first duty unquestionably was its own land defence. As much as the country could be expected to do was being dono in this department, and lie hoped that it would bo found efficacious. As to coast batteries the Admiralty found that those in Now Zealand were satisfactorily situated, but that there was need for more modern six-inch guns." Sir Joseph Ward: You are alluding to the sites selected by Lord Kitchener ? Mr. Allen: No. Lord Kitchener only selected one site, at Auckland: he confirmed most of tho others. They are considered more or less satisfactory, but more six-ineli guns are required. With regard to the sea-going portion, ho had nothing to say that day, because his immediate concern was with training tho personnel, as provided for in the. Bill before the House, and passible provision for commerce protection in the near future. The Admiralty Proposals. The Admiralty's suggestion was that there should be developed severally in Australia, Canada, and South Africa naval establishments of docks, defences, and repairing plant, which would enable the Imperial Squadron to operate in each theatre for a prolonged period. Tl ere was no proposal iu the Bill to g.) in for any large clock accommodation. It was not necessary, and the Admiralty did not recommend it. In Australia, dock accommodation would he provided of sufficient scope to take in a battle-ship-cruiser. All that was necessary was to provide dork- accommodation for smaller ships, and Ibis could he provided by minor Alterations at the Cal-

hope dock in Auckland. The Admiralty proposals wero further thai, sum b'v side, there should be developed in each of the three theatres, as far as possible, local defence flotillas. No such flotilla was considered necessary in New Zealand, but it was necessary in Australia.

Mr. Russell: AVliy is it not necessary here?

I Mr. Allen.: lam giving yon the point of view of the Admiralty. The iulvice given by the Admiralty to New Zealand ill regard to tho immediate future, lis; continued, was that something in the nature of commerce protection should to provided. For this work light cruisers of the Bristol and Melbourne typo were suitable, lighting- ships were' not recommended by the Admiralty for NewZealand- at the present time, though they were in 1909. The Admiralty proposed that Now Zealand should rely upon an Imperial squadron based on Gibraltar. His own opinion was: that it was all very well to enpo with circumstances that might arise in the North .Sea or the Mediterranean, but it was a long way from Gibraltar, to tlrj South Pacific. Ho was not satisfied, and he know tho Australians were not, with a squadron based on Gibraltar. Sir J. Ward: That is the Flying Squadron, of course?

A Long Way to Fly. Mr. Allen: Yes, but it takes a-long time to fly from Gibraltar to the South Pacific! His opiireon was that the Flying Squadron would not satisfy Canadian, Australian, or Nov.- Zeaiand aspirations in" the long run. Before deciding on the policy proposed in tho Bill, it had been necessary to get an answer to one all-important question: Could the Mother Country by itself, by its own: taxpayers, provide for the protection of the North Sea aiid tho Mediterranean? That question had to be' answered before New Zealand could determine upon a policy. He was able to say that unquestionably the Mother Country could and would do that, and could do more if necessary. This was »n important issue, because if the Mother Country had not been able to do all that was necessary in tho North Sea, and the Mediterranean, it. would have been tho duty of the Dominions to go to the rescue of the Mother 'Country. Ho recognised the vast importance of tho position in those seas, and the fact that a disaster there meant disaster to tlio Empire. Since tho Mother Country could do all that was necessary in the,. North Sea and the Mediterranean, it was possible for New Zealand to adopt some other line of policy than simply contributing to tho- North Sea- Elect. TJib Gift DreadnougM. Ho believed that every New Zealandor was under tho impression, when this country presented a Dreadnought to the Admiralty, that tho ship would have been supplemental to tho British programme. Ho was not able to say that tho ship was supplemental to the ordinary programme. On tho contrary, was in a position to say delinitely and' clearly that if she were destroyed tomorrow she would have to be replaced by tho British taxpayer. The battleship cruiser in Australian seas, on the other hand, was supplemental and additional to the margin of safety provided by tho Imperial taxpayer. They | eamo then to the question of what New Zealand was to do in tho future. I It continued its help to the North Sea j fleet because for tho next liftcen years it would pay interest and sinking fund to the amount of £1/50,000 annually noon the cost of tho battle-cruiser. They would continue to pay £150,000 a .year to the .Admiralty to do what it liked with. Sir Joseph Ward: That is the present agreement. Mr. Allen: Yes; but I understand the ,hon. gentleman said himself in 11)09 that it would have to come tq an end. At present, ho went on, Now Zealand paid an annual subsidy of £100,000 to tho Navy without Parliament having any opportunity of discussing naval affairs. New Zealand bad to look on and seo agreements m'ada and broken and could not help it. They were broken as the ISO 9 agreement bad been broken. New Zealandlliad seen the proposal I'oi an Eastern Fleet of Empire—a Pacific Hcet —made and abandoned and could say nothing. Kew Zealand had seen New Zealand men engaged by British officers, to ho trained for the British Navy, and New Zealand had no say in it whatever. Now Zealand saw men of the Australasian Naval Reserve drilled and managed by British officers, and New Zealand had no say in tho matter. Ho could not. conceive .that any self-respecting Now . Zcalandev could long continue under that condition of things, and he believed the time was ripe for change,' especially ripe at the present moment. New Zealand at the present time was in the'condition of those nations who, in bygone times, employed hired mercenaries. Tho proposals of the Government were based upon a really Imperial idea in harmony with the suggestion of the Prime Minister of England, and that there should be _ "a unity within a unity, a house within a house." Undivided Control. The Government recognised the absolute necessity of having one control and one control was provided for in the Bill. They proposed, in a modest way, to begin training their -own personnel. He could not imagine any more useful contribution to Imperial naval defence than training New Zealand personnel. It was proposed that the Mother Country should lend a ship to Now Zealand for training purposes, and that, if necessary, other ships should bo acquired later on. The New Zealand proposal was more Imperial than the Australian one. The career of tho New Zealand officers and men was uot limited, but was the career of the Imperial Navy. So with regard to the training. Officers might he trained at Osborne, DarU'ord, or tho Australian Naval College. It was not proposed to sot up a large naval board such as had been created in Australia, but it was proposed that the officer in charge of tho training ship should bo adviser to the Minister of Defence or whoever was in charge of naval matters j in New Zealand. The training of the men would be upon all fours with tlio j training in the Australian Navy. It j was proposed to set up a New Zealand Royal Naval Reserve. They could not enter upon this policy without providing for proper naval discipline. Tho Bill provided that the Naval Discipline Act should be brought into force j;. New Zealand. The Bill did not provide for tlio payment of the men. That would ho done this year in the Supplemontary Estimates, and in subsequent years in the main Estimates. Under' the Bill the New Zealand Naval Force passed automatically under tho control of the British Government on tho outbreak of war. At other times, when v.ar was imminent, or circumstances made it desirable to do so, tho New' Zealand naval'ships might he Imided) over to the control of tlm Admiralty. All that the New Zealand Government proposed to do was to control tho adminisl ration of Hie ships and the training of tho men in time of peace. Nothing in the Bill placed anv of the New Zealand ships nl the disprwi! of Australia. His own idea and the Idea of the 'Government wan that- New Zealand should be considered as an entitv but if, wns advisable that Now Zealand should work in with Australia as far as it was possible to do so.

It was proposed to pay New Zeolnnders the same rales as obtained in tbn Australian Navy, and the trainim* <m ill*' l Australian and New Zealand sbiua would be the. same a;; in the British Navy. There wore- <» r r>iU, diffie.iiltii'3 with regard to pay. '['ho mon „„ training; ship would be paid the sae-.o rates as New Zcalaildcrs. The men oil Admiralty ships stationed in Now Zealand would be paid tbo Admirallv rat"::.

The pyraimis and I'syeiio woiibl remain, in New Zealand waters. New Zca'

hinders in training might bo trans* l'erred to the China Station or to other ships (if the Navy for training or for service. These proposals would mako it perfecilv clear to their Australian i'l lends that New Zealand considered it essential to recognise the solo control of tho Navy by the Uritish Government. The' Australian proposals wero not quite the sumo as those of New Zealand, hut he was not ono of tlioso who believed that the Australians had anything else in their minds than that their ships should pass to the Admiralty iii lime of war.

Imperial Representation. He did not think that either Canada, Australia, or New Zealand should bo satisfied to look ahead into tlio years and rest assured that everything had been done that ought to be done in leaving everything to the control of the British Government. The time must eonio when tho great Dominions, as they grow stronger and older, would make claims upon iho Imperial Government for some kind of representation. Tie had thou;:lit it that they in the Pacific might take some steym to that end. Sir Joseph Ward in 1809 had made come very far-reaching proposals on the subject- of an Imperial Parliament. He did not think the time was ripe for an Imperial Parliament, but ho thought tho timo_ had come for Eoino kind of ronrosentation of the Dominions, and still hoped that something of tho kind would be possible. Australia, New Zealand, and Canada might each, be represented upon a board to deier'niiiic from time; to: time, what kind of ship each of them should acquire. Ho thought it would be possible to set up some sort of controlling authority to determine when these ships should couio together in peaceful manoeuvres. Such, a board might bo a sub-eommittco of tho Committee of Imperial Defence. These, however, were questions that would have to be discussed at future Imperial Conferences. Unquestionably changes would have to take placo in years to come, which would give tho Dominions, growing as they were in manhood, some representation on tho bodies controlling Imperial naval defence and foreign diplomatic relations. In his opinion these things must develop by. an evolutionary process. Now Zealand's Wealth. Honourable members perhaps hardly realised how wealth had increased in New Zealand, in December, 1012, private wealth in the- Dominion amounted to £257,000.000, and public wealth to £79,000,001), making a- total of £330,000,000 of public and private, wealth to be defended-. Commerce was increasing year by year, and it also had to be. protected. Members should' ' consider the urgent necessity of something being done to keep open tho pathways of tho sea in the Pacific as «vll as in the North Sea and the Mediteiv -raticau The proposals in the Bill were modest. Future developments wore in tho hands of future Parliaments. Imports iaat year, the -Minister added, totalled £23.000,000,. and exports £21.000,000. Trade was increasing year by year, and it must be protected. He asked members to treat tho question from a non-party point of view. The time, in his opinion, was ripe, for this change.. Tho time was ripe for young New Zealanders and old. Nov/ Zealaifders to take some more direct interest in their naval concerns than thev had douo in the past. Ho had the feelings of an Englishman If anyone had, but the tinio was ripe- for a step forward in national effort so far as naval defence was con* corned. THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION. ONE FLEET IDEAL. Sif Joseph Ward (Awarua) ; said' he agreed that iho proposals in the Pill, "read with the recent statement of the Government naval policy, were of great magnitude. He regretted to have, to say' that, in his opinion,- the proposals were of a- most dangerous character to this country. If New Zealand had a population \ cry much bigger, and a- revenue ol : , say, 50 millions per annum, he would say that the time was rii>e for some such scheme as was proposed. But this country was only 70 years old, it bad a population of only a million of people, it had borrowed 00 million's of money, and it had many obligations to meet in tho future to carry out the necessary works to develop tho country. If it was not proposed, as the Minister bad declared, to incicasc the country's expenditure, why was it ncoassary'to have a Bill that was almost a copy of the Australian Defence Act? The only part of the Australian Act that'was not in the Bill was tho section empowering the Government io build ships. The scheme should be considered from an Empire p-jint of view, rather than from a Dominion point of view, and for this reason 'he regretted thai- the Minister had not tak?ii the House into his confluence as to tho oeifct of his interviews with tho Australian Government and with the Admiralty. The lion, gentleman said we should accept the adviso of the Admiralty, but could the hon. gentleman reconcile with bis proposals the statements made public by three First Lords of the Admiralty in succession against a local na\y? These First Lords had declared against local navies, and were not in accord with the Australian schemo, which subsequently led to tho foundation of the Australian Navy. Did not the lion, gentleman know that- tlio head of tho Admiralty, Mr. Churchill, had, since he left England, declared for ono Imperial Navy, but had said that if tho Dominions embarked on schemes of their own the Admiralty would help them, tie had declared" definitely against a sectional navy.

Mr. Allen: Wo are not proposing a sectional navy.

Sir J. Warn: Pardon inc. I am going "to show what this proposal incaiis beforo I have done with it. Ho added i hat if the hi)!!, gentleman eaid that, the Admiralty had urged liim to go on with the- scheme, then the First Lord of tlio Admiralty appeared to liavo not dealt quite, fairly with him, this in view of liis .later statement in tho House, of Commons. Tlio 1903 Agreement, And ho wished to ask again who was responsible for tho complete roicrsal of a naval policy embodied in an agreement signed in 190!) by the bead or tlio Admiralty and by himself (Sir J. Ward). .Mr. Allen: You know who began it! ■Sir •!. Ward: f know who began it. But, he continued, ho wanted to know who waii responsible for the complete icversal of j)oIio>-. In connection with that scheme ho would like to emphasise th:'t the .New Zealand Dreadnought was in the first place given to the Admiralty as a gill- micoudilior.aHy. The naval authorities had th> right to do with Die shit) oxaetlv as thev thought best. Tlie 1!10!) agreement liad disappeared entirely, and-llsere was no w'Httcn communication from tlt> Admiralty that had over been given to tho House?. iVow it was proposed to pay I'oO.flOO a year more for a worse arrangement. The Home authorities had agreed to the founding of the Australian Helc, but they had not favomed it, and the highest 'men at Home had said that his arrangement was the better one. lie appealed to the .'Minister to say why this great departure from the former naval policy of the Dominion had been made. Tho lion. gentleman, in speaking of tho Dreadnought, had said Unit we should still count file Dreadnought interest and sinking fund as a pa''t nf our contribution to the British Navy. lie did not think this proposition could he justified. It was not well to remind the Naval Authorities repeatedly that the gift had been made. "Blanks," ][e was lint suspicious, bnl he asked I he lieu, gentleman to (ill in a fen blanks. Did the hoi:, ceiilloman say

that we were to work as an entity apart from Australia, wlion our Act was virtually the same as tiio Australian A'H, and the rates of pay to be given to officers and men the same? And which

one ship came, here, was it to lie sufficient to protect all our trade routes? Would it not be associated with other ships? And, if so, where would those other ships be? It seemed to him that tho Minister was afraid to tell tho House what was in his mind in connection with association with Australia.

Mr. Allen:,What do you mean by a: sulfation?

Sir .1. Ward said ho meant the uniting of the- forces under an Australasian Naval Hoard, or an Australian Control.

Mv. Allen siild lie bad never made such a proposal, and had never had it in his mind.

Sir Joseph Ward wont on to arguo by quoting Australian figures as to tiio cost of ft navy, that the upkeep of lighting ships was too big an undertaking for New Zealand. The cost of one cruiser, such as it was proposed to acquire, for Now Zealand, would be A' 1.00,000 a year, without maintenance, and without the oast cf personnel. The total cost of tho Australian navy was about £4,452,(500, rum "1110 total cost of one ship such as that which it was proposed to acquire for New Zealand would bo £204,000. Mr.' Massoy: Nonsense. Sir J. Ward said this would ho the eost of a cruiser of tho Melbourne typo. - ; Mr. Massoy pointed out, however, that tho type of cruiser proposed was the Bristol type. Sir J. Ward then asked wriesher the Prime Minister knew what would bo the cost of a Bristol cruiser. Ho ventured to sav that tho annual cost would be at least £1/50,000. Mr. Massey: Oh, no. Sir J. Ward said he did not see the wisdom of tho proposal to train men for the British Navy, when in Groat Britain they had a population of furtv millions of people, while wo had only a million, and were breaking our necks to get more. He Believed in giving New Zealand men and youths a chance, to equip themselves for the Navy, but for this purpose we had already a trainingship, tho Amokura. Continuing alter the dinner adjournment, Sir Joseph Ward resumed his argument that the financial burden to bo imposed by tho establishment of a local navy in New Zealand waters would he more than New Zealand could hear. Ho nave then resent Government full credit for sincerity of purpose, but since the Bill gave tho Government unlimited power, it was futilo to argue to him that this power could be controlled by tin- putting of a sum on the Estimates. If an Act gave the Government, authority, tho authority of Parliament under tlio Estimates was only a secondary authority. Tho proposal to appoint an advisory naval officer was the sanio as had led to tho establishment of an Australian navy. History was repeating itself. Tin's officer would be appointed from the Imperial Navy. Now, what would such an officer do when he was here ? Mr. Massoy: He is to be the commander of the. Philomel. '* Sir J. Ward caid that such an officer would' not bo content with inertia, but would press the Government to adopt a policy of progression towards an expensive local navy schemo. In Australia the estimate of tho. Advisory Officer had been found to bo very much below tho actual cost. Tho burden of Australia at tlio present moment for naval defence for one year was £5,4U0,533. If we adopted a similar system wo could not avoid tho imposition of an equal amount per capita. This would mean at tho most moderate estimate an annual expenditure of at lease £480,000. This included tho cost of a now Bristol cruiser, tho cost of maintenance and. personnel, sinking fund,, contribution to iho Navy, and tho interest and sinking fund on tho Dreadnought loan. Ami the-expenditure on a local navy would increase annually, probably at the rate of about £100,000 a year. This meant that in five years it would cost this country an additional £'•500,000. No country in tho work! hud over been abio to keep its naval expenditure down when mice it, went for its own ships. And lot honourablemembers consider what the cli'ect of improvements in naval construction wore. .The latest battleship built for Japan could be out of range- of tho guns of the outiro Australian Fleet and destroy it. The battle-cruiser New Zealand could have, done exactly t'ao same with the American Fleet that was hero.some years ago, and later ships could in the same way destroy tho New Zealand.

Big Navy liie only Safety? The British Empire was so huge, -;o scattered, and- its interests Were so varied that the only possible protection was a great central Imperial Navy, helped by contributions Irani the Dominions, and made so powerful so irresistible, so available- for disposition on our shores in times of peaco or war, as to make. it impossible for any continental country,to go on building in tho hope that they could break our Navy, or even assail any portion of the Empire. For a young country lifco Now Zealand.to attempt to buili.l its own Navy was futile, in view of the fact that wo wove attached to a country having tho greatest Navy tlio world had ever known Especially was this futile in the teeth of :ho expressed desire of the Admiralty. Ho suggested that- if the Government had not offered to assume responsibility for a local navy tho Admiralty would have been willing to send to our shares a much more adequate, fores than the Minister was now asking for—one Bristol cruiser. Mr. Hcrrios: Because he can't get two. Sir Joseph AYard said ho would much rather see the Government propose to present a Dreadnought to the British Navy at a. cost of £1,-!00,00(), or even two Dreadnoughts, ami ask iho Navy to post a squadron on our coasts adequate to protect us in peace times. Alter all our. futuro was bound up in the unassailable strength of the British Navy, for disaster at Homo would mean disaster for us. In time of trouble, in any case our one Bristol cruiser would bo usoless, and wo would bo merely a pawn in tho game. .Ho was sorry he could not agree with tho Government's proposals. Ho did not think that there would bo any settlement of.defence troubles at Homo until all the four countries in (lie lirilish Isles had their Parliaments for local affairs, with an Empire Parliament to deal with such matters as Empire defence. Meantime we should have a system of quota cuitribiition. and make our Navy impregnable at all times.