THE LEADERS CONFER.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1858, 18 September 1913, Page 4

THE LEADERS CONFER.

CASE FOR THE OPPOSITION,

PRIME MINISTER'S ULTIMATUM.

At 10.10 a.m. Sir Joseph Ward (Leader of the Opposition) moved to report progress, and asked that tho Prime Minister, who was out of tho Chamber, should be sent for. When the Prime Minister came in Sir Joseph Ward , said that lie had moved to report progress for the purpose of asking tho Prime Minister what he intended to do. The House had been for seventy hours in Committee of Supply, exclusive of adjournments for meals and rest, sev-enty-seven hours with. rest-. It was desirable iu tho circumstances that they should ascertain,what course tho Leader of the House proposed to pursuo. There had been so l'ar three sittings on tho Estimates'. Of tho fifteen classes seven had been passed. Lotfking baek on the history of proceedings on the Estimates, it appeared that this was a good record iof work. In addition to passing seven classes, tho Committee had devoted somo hours, nt the third sitting, to a discussion upon a matter of great importance, which had arisen as a consequence of new legislation. Very good work had been done. —(Government denials.)—Ho went on to propose, with the reservation that members must not be asked to take up •. important Estimates at 3 or 4 o'clock in the mornijig, that the Committco should proceed with those -sections of the Class of Internal Affairs in respect of which reports had been furnished. The Health Department Estimates should bo deferred pending tho production of tho Departmental report. Tho Opposition would accept tho reports which had been brought down, though they had been introduced somewhat clandestinely through tho other Chamber. Tho Prime Minister: No/ they have not I ...

A Good Night's Work. Sir Joseph Ward said that they had. Ho was prepared, however, to accept tho reports. Up to fouro'clock on Saturday morning last, ho continued, the Committee had put through tho Mines Estimates, and some sections in the Class of Internal Affairs. On top, of this the Committee was asked at four o'clock'to do what amounted to a good night's work. This would havo given rise to trouble in any Parliament. Tlio reasonableness of tho Opposition must ■be recognised by any unprejudiced person. (Government laughter.) Tlio position was that Parliament had been asked to pass Estimates to the amount of £5,593,750 for which not ono report had been circulated in tho House. Reports not yet' produced included those on Railways, Native Department, Native Land Settlement . Mr. Horries: That is down. Sir Joseph Ward said that it had not beon printed, and was not availablo. , Mr. Herries: Yes it was; it was used. He added that he ljad laid the typewritten report on tho table threo.wepks previously.

Responsibilities of the Opposition. After some further discussion of details Sir Joseph "Ward said that there had 'been no obstruction for obstruction's sake. (Government laughter.-) "When the honourable gentleman (Mr. Massoy) had a party of sixteen on this sido of the House," continued Sir Joseph Ward, "whenever ho thought it necessary in .the interests of his party to retard the business of tho country ho did it, subject to criticism from those ho opposed. Positions had been changed for tho moment, but tho conditions and the environments had not changed." With a party of at Jeast 25 on that side of tho House, ho continued, tho Opposition had resisted a position that tWey believed to be,not only unfair to their own side, but ono that ought to bo resisted in the interests of tho country. After some further talk about tho responsibilities of tho Opposition, Sir Joseph Ward -said | that though his party was in a minority it 'would not put up with any attempt to drive it. It would not tolerate the big boots being put on. Ho had entirely put them off in his time. Sir Joseph Ward urged the Prime Minister to display a spirit of peace, goodwill, and charity towards all men. Tho remaining sections in tho Internal Affairs Class and tho Defence and Customs and Marine Department Estimates could bo put through before the House rose, upon the understanding that proceedings were not carried on until 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning. Several members pointed out that thto Customs and Marine Estimates had already been put through. Sir Joseph Ward then added tho Labour Department Estimates to his proposed list.

THE PRIME MINISTER. THE OBSTRUCTION REVIEWED. • The Prime Ministor said that he waa very glad to hear from tko Loader of the Opposition! that there was no pafty in the Houso which desired to obstruct business, and that liimsolf and those who worked with him were anxious to assist the Government in this and other matters. Ho sincerely hoped that the statement made by tho lion, member would prove to be corfect, and that satisfactory work would be done upon the Estimates. Tho Pnmo Minister wont 011 to state that tho House, after going into Committee of Supply on the Estimates at about 4 o'clock on Friday afternoon, had spent seven hours u[wn the Estimates of tho Mines Department. Ho would not go the length of saying that this implied deliberate obstruction, but lfe did say that the Mining Estimates were discussed at unnecessary length. Sir Joseph Ward: It was duo to tho trouble about the Public Service Commissioner's position.

A Belated Complaint. Mr. Massoy: I do not agrco with the hon. gentleman. Tho next class in order, lie continued, was that of Internal Affairs. Tho Committee got oil fairly well with this until tlireo o'clock in the morning. Then obstruction commenced and continued. It was no> until obstruction had continued for many hours that there was any. demaia

for reports of tho subdivisions that wero being discussed. Sir Joseph Ward: I think the member for Avon asked for the reports Very early. Tho Prime Minister said that beforo tho obstruction started lie had determined to be satisfied with the two plasses of Mines and Internal Affairs. Last year live classes, including that of Internal Affairs, were put through at one sitting, so that it was particularly i<essonablo to ask for only two classes, including the Class of Internal Affairs. Obstruction was commenced on Saturday morning, and continued up to that time. Tho Leader of the Opposition as an old Parliamentarian would recognise that the Estimates must bo got through. That soventy hours had been spent upon tho Estimates was no fault of his (tho Prime Minister's), and ho took no responsibility at all. Another Day Wasted. He had thought that when the reports were circulated on the previous afternoon obstruction would havo ceased. Instead a whole Parliamentary day had been lost and, since tho reports were availablo to ever}' member of the House, only one view could be taken of tho position. He denied that clandestine methods had been adopted in introducing tho reports. Any report might be circulated by permission of tlio Speaker, at any time, a fact that was thoroughly understood by every member of the House. Sir Joseph- Ward: You will admit that you can't debate it in general that way. Mr. Massey: Certainly you can debate it. It was discussed all yesterday afternoon. Sir Joseph Ward: Only the items on the Estimates. Mr. Massey: Certainly. He added that an opportunity would bo given later for a general discussion on tho reports. Nothing wrong or improper had been done ill circulating the reports. Ho had stated on the previous day that members of tho present Government party though they had often, when in Opposition, asked that re-ports-should be presented prior to the consideration of Estimates, had never been unreasonable in tho matter. Ho considered ilow that reports should, whenever possible, bo presented beforo the corresponding Estimates wero considered. At the same time it was true that in 1911 the Estimates of seven Departments (which he named) were' put through beforo the corresponding reports wero presented. Mr. Poland: Tho Committee of Public Safety did not object. Mr. Massey: At that timo there was a reasonable Opposition on the Opposition benches.

Classes Passed Without Reports. Sir Joseph Ward: The lion, gentleman will recognise that already this session we have passed a number of classes in tho Estimates without the reports. The Prime Minister said that it was right and proper that tho Estimates should bo discussed and criticised. What ho proposed to do was to go on with tho Estimates. Ho did not propose to take any class at present where the report was not availablo. The Estimates would be gono on witli, and when obstruction had ceased . they would get back to, reasonable hours. Sir Joseph Ward suggested that in view of the smallpox epidemic the public wore particularly interested in tho report of the Publio Health Department. Tho Prime Minister had suggested that it was not a question of reports that had given rise to tho delay. It was duo to himsolf to state that, on tho previous evening, he had informed the Prime Minister that the Opposition was prepared to put through all tho Internal Affairs Estimates except (hose of tho Publio Health Department.

The Publio Hoalth Report. The Prime Minister said that there had always, so far as ho could recollect, been a delay with regard to the report of the Publio Health Department. Ho did not Tocollect a single instance in which this report had been presented beforo tho Estimates of the Department wcro dealt, with. It might' be necessary now to put through theso Estimates before the report appeared. He declined to adopt a sugges-tion by t-lio Leader of the Opposition to adjourn at that stage until 2.30. It might bo possible to adjourn a little earlier than usual in tho evening. The Hon. R. H. Kliodes said that the delay in tho production of tho Public Health report was a repetition of what had occurred, undor tho administration of provious Ministers Somo hospital boards delayed sending in their returns, and this necessarily delayed tho report. A Bill which ho had brought down included a clauso providing that a fino of £50 should be ipiposod upon -hospital boards that failed to furnish their returns within': a reasonable time. Tlio present position was unfair to the Dfpartmont and to thoso boards which sent in their returns promptly. At present one hospital board was responsible for tho delay. As to tho report being interesting on account of the prevailing epidemic, it dealt with tho period to March 31, so that it would contain no reference to tho epidemic.

Not to be Coerced. Another discussion took placo between the Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition in regard to a possiblo continuance of the discussion upon the Estimates to-day. Sir Joseph Ward said that it would facilitate progress very much if an understanding wore como to that consideration of the' Estimates after that day would bo deferred until Friday, but tlio Prime Minister declined to make any promiso on tho subject. Ho said that 110 was not a driver, and had no intention of driving, but he did not intend to be coerced or obstructed. Ho would do the right tiling by tho House and without sitting to unnecessary hours. Tho subject was dropped at 10.50 a.m., and the Committee returned to, its consideration of tho Tourist. Department Estimates. More About Hanmer. The Hon. iE. 11. Rhodes said that there had bed a considerable expenditure upon Ilinmer. MOIO was spent upon Rotorua, but Hanmer could not compare witli Rotorua. The grounds had recently been improved. Baths had been cleaned out, and this season the gas lighting would bo much improved. There had teen no slackening off on his part in regard to Hanmer.