THE COMMISSIONERS AGAIN.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1858, 18 September 1913, Page 4

THE COMMISSIONERS AGAIN.

SAURIES & ESTIMATES. POSITION CLEARLY DEFINED. "BILLET-HUNTINC" ENDED. I Consideration of tho Tourist Departmoit Estimates continued peacefully un lil the Committee entered upon the Public Service Commissioners' Estimates at 3.15 p.m. Replying to questions, tho Hon. F. IJ. B. Fisher said that tlie number of appeals lodged against the provisional <lassification was the lowest recorded in Australasia at tho initiation of a scheme of tho kind. it was about 20 per 'cent. As to the appointment of a person from outsido New Zealand as a Commissioner, tho Government had assumed that tho proper-courso to take was to appoint tho three gentlemen most suitable for the position. Tha.t was why tho three persons selected wero appointed. The Chairman ruled that a discussion upon th? constitutional standing of tha

Public Service Commissioners was in order. Ho stated that under ordinary circumstances such a discussion would be out of order, but ho had promised some days previously that it would bo permitted. Ho was then, ho explained, under the impression that tho salaries of the Commissioners figured on tho Estimates. They did not, but lie would keep his promise. Mr. T. K. Sidey argued at somo length that in introducing the Estimates tho Government was acting in contravention of tlio Public (Service Act. A Question Resented. Mr. G. M. Thomson: Are you going to block it again ? Oppositionists (loudly): Order I Order! Mr. Russell: That ought to bo taken down. Ho repeated Mr. Thomson's remark to tho Chairman. Tho Chairman: I cannot take exception to that. Mr. W. H. D. Bell said that the question that had arisen seemed -to bo duo to a confusion of two distinct things: tlio Public Servant's right to be paid, and Parliament's right to grant or refuse Supply to the Crown for that .purpose. The position in dispute arose but of a contention that once the Public Service Commissioners' classification was completed, Public Servants would have the right to sue the Crown for the salary so fixed, whether or not Supply was granted. There was precisely the same position already in regard to the railway service and the Post and Telegraph Department. Tho Crown was liable to pay these servants, but Parliament could at any time refuse Supply. The Chairman at this stage intervened to remark that whilo lie would permit this discussion he would prefer that it should take place when tho Classification List was laid on the tablo later in> the session. Members would then havo an opportunity of discussing tho matter in full', and a full report would bo taken. Tlio present proceedings would not be reported in full. Sir Joseph Ward's Contention. Sir Joseph Ward said that once the classification had. been gazetted it became the statutory law, and could not bo altered without an Act of Parliament and without compensating tho man affected. The reason of tho classification was to prevent tho_ salaries being altered without authority. This was tho material difference between tho Post and Telegraph Department and tile Public Service Commissioners. Tho

Post and Telegraph Department was undor a responsible of tho Crown; now the Public Service was under Commissioners. Ministers were of opinion that they could reduce salaries, but, all Parliament could do was to, reduco the aggregate vote. The Government would then havo to send baok to the Commissioners aud instruct them to allocate the decrease over the wholo sorvice. Then, as the AttorneyGeneral himself said, each officer affected would bo able to recover tho classified amount from the Government, and this meant that Parliament had no authority in tho question at all. Upon, what base' wore these -salaries, to bo paid—-upon, the Estimates or upon the classification? Mr. Massey: Ho will bo paid according to tho classification. Sir Joseph Ward: That means that Parliament is flouted. (Ministerial Noes.) What is the use of our touching these Estimates if what tho Prime Minister says is correct? What should

have been done was for tho Estimates to have been sent to the Publio Service Commissioners first. Mr, Russell: That is what the Commissioners wanted them to do, but tho Government insisted' on. its own Estimates.

Mr. Massey: What's that? .' Wrong altogether. Mr. Allen: How do you know that? • Mr. Rus-sell: Oh, I know that. ,

THE MINISTER FOR FINANCE

PARLIAMENT'S ULTIMATE CONTROL.

Tho Hon. J. Allen said that he made no contract, as Minister for Finance, with tho oflicors for whom ho was providing salariosi. Ho was .simply providing a certain amount of money. Those were Estimates. ' The honourablo gentleman had cited a supposititious case of a salary being redjuced by tho Commissioner i from tho amount on tho Estimates. In that • event ho as Minister for Hnance, would save tho amount of tho excess. If necessary the Supplementary Estimates could reduce the amounts on tho main Estimates, so as to bring thorn into lino with those of tho Publio Service Commissioners. Tho Estimates before the Houso wero brought down on August 5, beforo the classification was issued. Was it suggested that the Financial Statement" should have been held back pending the production of the classification? Certainly notl If tho classification had boon issued he would havo brought down his classification just the same. Ho had not to consider what the Commissioner wanted. His business was to provide what money he considered it necessary, as Minister for Finance, to provide. The Minister went on to point out that the Public Servico Act specifically provided for salaries, grades, and increments, so that the Public Service Commissioners were governed by tho law and by Parliament.

The Principle of the Publio Service Act. The principle of the Public Service Act was tlio grading and classification of officers and the fixing of niaximum and minimum salaries. Definite increments wero stated by law. Tho provision as regarded payment of other public servants was exactly tho same as in tlio case of tho Post and Telegraph and Railway employees, except that in the case of the3o two Departments the of-r fieors in charge made the classification. The Public Service Commissioners had been appointed to mako tlio classification, instead of Ministers, becauso tho old system had led to abuses. Men who conld be trusted liad been appointed to classify the Service in accordance witli the scales fixed by Parliament, and that was all that they had power to do. If a salary were roduced by a vote of Parliament, tho officer would nevertheless bo paid just what ho was entitled to under tlio classification. Tho man was under a contract, and would get his pay. The indication of such n vote would bo that Parliament desired some amendment to the classification—simply that and nothing more. The classification could bo amended by amending,tho law. Parliament had absolute power over these Estimates. Under Clause 24 of tho Publio Servico Act, Parliament had absolute power to increase; or decrease salaries on a pro rata basis, without tho aid of tlio Publio Service Commissioner. It was done pro lata becauso pro rata was absolutely ; fair to everybody. ' Mr. Russell: Would you take ten per cent, off tho wages of a charwoman? Mr. Allen: No. It doesn't say ten per cent. It is "pro rata." Mr Hordman: It is exactly the samo in tho Post and Telegrapli Department. An Attack Withstood. Mr. Allen repeated that Parliament had absolute control. The Opposition had attacked tho Public Serv:co Commissioners, and tho Government in office. "Well," said the Minister, "wo will withstand the attack and go to the country if you like — Opposition applause, uprocr, and laughter. Mr. Alien: As to whether the old scheme or this scheme (mbro upTlio Chairman called for order. "Tho expressions within tho last minute or two," ho said, "have been approaching tho disorderly, although hilarious.'' Mr. Allen: Wo will go to the cnuntry by-and-by, and see if it wants tho old scheme. An Opposition Opinion. Mr. T. M. IVYilford (Hutt) said that

it would bo a good-thing for the country if tlio Estimates before Parliament, wore withdrawn. Tlio Estimates should then bo brought down in clobo after the Commissioners had completed their classification. Mr. Allen: I won't do anything of tlio kind. I'll bring them down in detail. Mr. Wilford said that the lion, gentleman would not givo way even when he ras proved to bo wrong. Ho contended that in view of the powers conferred by Parliament on' tlio Commissioners 110 act of tlio Commissioners should be subject to reviow. THE HON. F. M. B. FISHER. "YOU CAN'T GET YOUR FRIENDS JOBS." The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher said that Clauso 24 of tlio Public Service Act was word for word Clause 7 of tlio Act of 1890', under which tho Post tnd Telegraph Department was classified. Tho objection of lion, members opposite was that they had lost their privilege, in regard to the salaries of public servants, of being ablo to go to the Minister and get a maii kicked out of tho service, when the.v wanted to, or get a man into tlio service when they wanted to. Members on the-other side of tho House Jiad boasted that they wero experts in getting people billets. They know perfectly well to-day that tho objection to the Act was that tho member of Parliament could not get his relative into tho servieo. (Opposition, uproar.)

Mr. Russell: A Minister can. Mr. Fisher: And ho can't get his salary increased in tho good ola-fashioned way that we have had for 21 years. A Minister could exercise no influence of any kind over the Commissioners, r.nd tho Act should have tho effect of re-' lioving members and tho country from the position which had obtained for years past. Thcro were numerous interjections and interruptions from the- Opposition at .this stage, and the Chairman had to call for order and request the member for Grey Lynn not to try to shout tlio Minister down.

Mr. Fisher argued that there would assuredly havo been an- outcry _ by tlio Opposition if the Government iiad announced that they could not bring down Estimates bccause the Public Service Commissioner had not yet made out their classification. "It all comes buck to tlio samo old thing," he said; : 'jou can't get your friends jobs, and jou don't like it." These Blessed Centlomen. Mr. G. W. Russell said that he proposed to deal with "theso gentlemen" '(tlio Public Service Commissioners) and to "take the gloves oft." The Commissioners had approved generally, ho said, of tlio classification of tlio Printing Office staff, approved by Mr. Fisher, hut yet almost every single man in tlio oftico had had his salary raised bv tlio Commissioners. The averngo increase was £5 per man, and the two members who would got tlio' votes, bought at £5 each, wero tlio Minister for justice and tlio Minister for Marino. Tlio Commissioners had prostituted their scheme in order to got political support for it. "Theso blessed gentlemen," ho said to the Minister for Marino, "have bought votes for you and tlio Minister for Justico." And all this after tlioy had said tliwt Mr. Fisher's classification was about right and that tho men wero contented.

Mr. Malcolm hero interrupted to say that Mr. Kussell was wido of tho question, and that he had bettor return to tile discussion of tho constitutional question of powers of tho Commissioners.

Mr. Husscll went on to say that tho Commissioners fixed tho salaries, but had no power, to pay any money. Parliament Voted tho money, but had' no power to pay any wages other than thoso fixed by the Commissioners. Tho Government had blundered in not settiiig asido the section' defining these powers for 'this year until tlio Commissioners lind mado up their classification.

That "Villainous Conspiracy." The Hon. A. L. Herdnian said this was tlio first ho had 'heard of the "villainous conspiracy" to raise tlio salaries of tlio Printing Office staff in order to buy votes. Mr. Itussell: I never suggested it. Mr. Herdman said ho had never' seen a classification list of tlio Printing Offico staff, and ho had never suggested any amendment of the salaries. It was utter rubbish to say, as Mr. Russell had certainly said, that ho had used any influence to liavo tlio salaries <)f the Printing Offico staff raised. It was only another of the honourable gentleman's mare's nests. Referring to tlio constitutional question ho argued again, in reply to Mr. Russell, that tlio Fiuanco Minister had a constitutional legal right to act as ho had done. When the Estimates were presented to tlio House 110 classification list was in existence, and now it was said that tlio present Estimates did not covor tlio amounts required for salaries; but May was quit© clear 011 the point that it was absolutely in order for tlio Finance Minister to submit later revised or additional Estimates. Parliament in tlio last resort passed tho Appropriation Act by which the payments allotted in the Estimates could bo made. Tliero was no illegality and nothing unconstitutional in the Government's action.

Effect of Reductions. Mr. J. A. Ha 11 an said tlio Estimates wore merely "dummy Estimates," which tho Government had no need to produco and which it would bo futile for Parliament to discuss. Tlio amounts of tho salaries were fixed by tlio Commissioners, and Parliament could not reduce them.

Mr. W. H. D. Bell, by interjection', pointed out that Parliament could not now rednce tho salaries' of railway servants, fixed by classification under statute.

Mr. Hanan .would not be denied, however. Parliament had, lie said 1 , virtually given tho Commissioners a blank cheque. He declared also that tlio Commissioners had 110 knowledge of many of the officers of whom they wero placed in control. Mr. Isitt asked whether there wero any salaries in tho Estimates which wero not statutory, any_ which tho House could rediuco, and if the House did- reduce any was the 'reduction binding on the Commissioners. Mr. Massey: No. Mr. Isitt: Well, let us end tho whole farce. Tlio House, he continued, was faced with.a position that was so complex that members were in serious, honest doubt about it. Ho could not see why tlio Prime Minister should resent tlio discussion of the point. Mr. Massey Explains. Tho Hon. W. F. Massey said that ho had never resented discussion of the question, but 110 had objected previously to obstruction. Now; at the proper time, he did not objcot to discussion of the question, which was a perfectly proper one for serious discussion. Tho Commissioners, ho said ; did not fix salaries. The Commissioners made a classification of tho service into grades under tlio Act, and affixed salaries to the grades under tlio Act. Parliament had not lost any of its powers of controlling expenditure on. salaries. A great deal had been made of tho fact that Parliament must still pay a salary in full, oven if the House decided that it should be decreased, but hitherto Parliament had been exactly in tho same position in regard to tho reduction of salaries in classified Departments such as tho Post and Telegrapli Depart, mcnt. Parliament now could reduco tho Estimate of any individual salary, but that was a different thing from decreasing tlio salary to lie paid. Tho effrct of a reduction of the Estimate would, however, be an indication from the House of its opinion. He said there was absolutely, nothing in the legal opinions quoted by

Sir Joseph Wa>rd'tho previous day which was at all in disagreement' with tlio opinions repoatedly expressed by members' of tlio Government. A Danger. Mr. W. A. Veitch said there was a danger to tlio Servieo in the fact that men might, under the regulations, over which i'arliamont had no direct control, ho required to act in lower grades than they were entitled to bo in. Men had been under an injustice in tho Hallway Department 011 account of tho classification, and of tho regulations which could bo altered in order to ahiCiid tho classification Bchemo in such a way as to savo a great deal of money. 'This had been doiio in tho past. Ho would thorefore prefer to seo all but minor matters of control dealt with under tlio Act, and not by regulation. He would like to see Parliament given more power, and the Commissioners less. Opposition Leader's Difficulty. Sir Joseph AVard said ' it seemed to liirn extraordinary that because attention had beon called to a difficult question, two Ministers had thought it necessary to indulge in nothing short of abuse. The Minister for Marino had said that tho Opposition were against •tho Public Servieo Act becauso it prevented the Service being stuffed with relatives of members, and Mr. Allen had said that they wore against it becauso tlioy woro politically opposed to tho authors of the Commissioner scheme. His objection was a real one, and ono that Parliament would liavo to notice. Not an item -in tho _ Estimates had been before the Commissioners, and under tlio law it was' necessary that the Service should •bo under tho Commissioners. It would bo impossible for corrected Estimates upon which tho Commissioners had been consulted to bo brought down until the appeals wore concluded. He thought the Act ought to bo amended, to permit of tho brings ing down later of Estimates under the authority of tho Commissioners. Mr. Allen: The Estimates are not brought down under the authority of tho Commissioners, and they never will bo. They are brought down under tho authority of the Minister.

Mr. G. Forbes wanted to discuss the appointment of. a gentleman from Australia as a Cbmmissioner, but the Chairman said this was out of order. Mr. G. Laurenson said ho wished to protest against these three autocrats, "the whole jing-bang lot," and ho prophesied that in three years the' system would break down. , At 5.25 p.m. tho vote was passed on' the voices.

COOK ISLANDS,

ANOTHER REPORT CALLED FOR. Tho next class'was, "Cook Islands Admin istration, £4835." Mr. L. M. Isitt complained about the absence of Judge M'Cormack's report. Tho report which had just been given them was that by Mr. Northcroft, who only went to tho islands in March last. Tho report they was Judge M'Cormack's report covering the period from April, 15)12, to November, 1912. Ho asked now why, after a distinct promise had boon given that the report would bo availablo, it'had not been presented P

Sir Joseph Ward said that if that promise had been given, then thoy wanted that report. Mr. Massey: There is no reason why you should not havo it. Tho Hon. Dr. Pomare stated that tho report was in the hands of the 'printer, but delay had occurred with its printing, as with other reports Mr. Davey: It is astonishing how much that printer is responsible for. Dr. tPomare' added' that?'the- report was being printed, 'and'that it would be presented 1 in duo course.

The Resident Commissioner. When the House resumed at 7.30 p.m., Mr. G. W. Forbes (Hurunui) moved that the salary of the Resident Commissioner (£700) bo reduced by £10, as an indication of dissatisfaction with the appointment of Mr. 11. W. Northcroft to the position. Mr. Forbes said that it was straugo that the Government had had to go outside tho Civil Service for its Commissioner, and that it had appointed a man who was 67 years of ago, when the retiring ago for the Public Sorvico was 65. Such appointments did not give much encouragement to aspiring officers of the Servico. Mr. 1 A. E. Glover (Auckland Central) claimed to know moro about the Cook Islands than'' the whole of the members on tho other side combined. Ho was proceeding to discuss tho administration of tho Islands generally when tho Acting-Chairman ruled him out of order.

Mr. L. M. Isitt said that ho had taken the. precaution of consulting the permanent Chairman as to whether it would be permissible'to discuss tho administration generally oil the proposal to roduco the Commissioner's salary. Mr. Malcolm had said that they could discuss anything and everything. Mr. Bell said that it would be competent for members to discuss tlie administration of the islands by tlie Resident Commissioner. Mr. Glover compared the salary of tho present Commissioner with that of tho previous Commissioner, Captain J. Etnan Smith, who received only £600. He thought that members should have an opportunity of visiting tho Islands, so that they could discuss their- administration with tho same knowledge of them which he himself had. Judge M'Cormack's Report. Mr. L. M. Isitt said that the Minister in charge of the Islands (Dr. Pomare) had handed him a copy of Judge M'Cormack's report at 5.30 p.m. that day. Ho thanked the Minister for his courtesy, but ho could see 110 reason whatever why tho report had been kept back so long. The members for Taumarunui, Invercargill, and Nolson had repeatedly asked for this report, but it had never been brought down. What was the reason for this secrecy ? From what he had seen of tho report, thoro was nothing in it which needed to bo withheld. It had been mado in November, 1912, and was asked for early last month. Tho speaker alleged that an officer had ;been appointed to ■ tako charge of .the ' polios of Rarotonga, without tho knowledge of the Minister. . He did not know that tho appointment had been made until the ofticer was-ready to, leave for tho Islands. The Minister had' said that the appointment had been only.tempwary, but evidence would bo given during tlie debate that it was not temporary. Ono of the chief duties of this man would bo to suppress bush beer drinking, and a more unsuitable man for the position could not possibly have been found. Bush beer drinking '.was a veiy great evil, and it must stop.. Mr. Glover: Tlioy never will.

The Festive period. Jlr Isitt further complained that at tlio festive period of tlio year far too many permits for alcohol wore given by medical men. The inference was that whisky was being administered for the treatment of heat apoplexy. _ Tlio veriest tyro in medicine would point out tlio absurdity of this treatment.'. • Dr. A. K. Newman brought under the notice of the Minister th& fact that there wore o number of resident agents in tlio Islands who were very badly treated by. tho Government. He would like tlio Prirno Minister to''look into their case, and perhaps to bring them under tho Public Service Commissioners. It would bo only reasonable, • too, to havd these moil transferred lifter a few years back to civilisation, back to a decent climate, and into a position wlioro they might havo some 'better cbauco of promotion.' Ha thought also

that tho hwilth of tho natives of tho Cook Islands was far from satisfactory. - Tho report was full of references to the various diseases from which tho natives suffered, especially skin diseases. Surely tho Minister, who had sonjo knowledgo of public health, could seo that tho problem of the sanitation, of the Cook Islands, which could not bo a big problem, should bo taken in hand at once. Mr. G. Lanrenson said he' recognised tho difficulty of controlling the islands. Judge .M'Wbrmack had ivc/jmmonded an immediate lame expenditure on a water supply as the first stop towards the improvement of tho health of tho island people, Tho natives were undoubtedly prospering. Financially they wore all right; physically they woro all wrong. Bush Boer Drinking. Mr. A. E. Glover said it would be nd ifloro _ possiblo to stop tho bush beer 1 drinking in the Islands than to stop tho ebb and flow of the tide. "Until you alter tlio constitution of human na*. ture," he said, "until you cut every orango treo down, until you cut every banana treo down, you will never stop it." Ho urged also that there oiight to be a regulation limiting tho amount of credit to bo allowed. by a storekeeper to a native, instead of the present regulation, which made tho natives dishonest, by. allowing them to absolve themselves from their liabilities. Constablo Blako Defended. Mr. J. C. Coatcs roso to defend Constablo Blake, tho officer now in chargo of tho police at tho Cook Islands. Ho had known Blake, who, as an officer, in chargo of a district, had been a capable,. painstaking officer. Ho was sure that Blake was being maligned, aind ho was suro that if 110 was appointed on tho recommendation of Mr. Ralfo, he was a suitable man for tlio post. Mr. H. Atmoro attacked tho' Minister and tho Government for having failed to produco Judge M'Cormack's report. Ho also did not approvo of Sir. Nortlicroft's appointment as Resident' Commissioner, or of tho appointment of Blako to take chargo of tho Native police.

Mr. J. A. Hanan said that Judgo M'Cormack's report'was a complete vindication of tho administration of tho Liberal Government, and a complete vindication of Captain Eman Smith. The Hon. Dr. Pomaro said that Judge M'Cormack's report was not a statutory report, but was prepared for tho information of t'lio Minister. Tho honourable members asked for it, and as soon as possiblo it had been presented. Ho : really had nothing to say about bush beer-drinking. They were trying to eradicate tho evil, and if any honourable member had any suggestions to offer as' to how it could 1)0 stamped out ho would receivo thorn with a groat deal of satisfaction. Tho fines had been increased j to itho limit allowed, and in tho Bill to i como down enlarged powers would ba given to tho Coinmissiohcr. The report, however, stated that tho increaso in the amount of bush beer-drinking was moro apparent than real. Ho was not going to produce tho record of Constahlo Blako. Would honourablo members aslc for the record of every constable in tho polico force? With regard to tho number of -liquor permits given to Natives at Christinas and other times, the fact was that tho liquor was not for tho Natives, but for their European friends. Ho was in sympathy with Dr. Newman's representations on behalf of tho resident agents, but these men were tho servants of tho local Administration, and it would not he easy fop the Now Zealand Government to help them.

A Maligned Man. Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said he thought it'was fair to Constahlo Blaka 'that something' should bo said on his behalf, litud 71liat;'.''liis 1 - record 'should ha read to the House. It might be assume ed from what had boon' said that thora; bad been something disgraceful in Blake's record. He'read the record which showed that in his service in tho Forco ho had been guilty of only such minor delinquencies at rare intervals as gossiping on his beat and being absent) from his beat, which wore dealt with by the Inspector by the/ imposition of small fines of 55., and 7s. Gd. None of these had occurred between 1907 and 1913. On February 27, 1913, Blako handed in his resignation from the Force, and tho next day ho was absent from tho barracks without leave. For this he was suspended and later fined, and his resignation was accepted on March 3. Thera was nothing bad in Blako's record except a 1 few minor delinquencies and it was said by thoso in authority that he was otherwise a good and satisfactory, officer. Honourablo members should bear in mind also that it was not easy to get men to'gi to the Islands. When, a man was required for tho Chief of. Police at Rarotonga the Commissioner! of Polico in Now Zealand reported thatfc,' he could get no suitablo man from th«> Forco to' go. Constahlo Blake was ape pointed by Mr. Northcroft.

More About the Appointments. Mr. Isitt said that ho had never* chargcd tho Cabinet or tho'Minister in charge of the Islands with the rr-spoiipi-bility of -the appointment. It had-been,' a very wrong tiling for Mr. Northcroft; to appoint the man, on the recommendation of Mr. Ralfo or anyono olso, without consulting tho Minister. Hadl tho Cabinet been asked to deal with tho matter, ho was cortiin tho appointment would not liavo been made. Ih€ Ministry would have appointed a man in whom they had a right to repose overy confidence. Tho record which tho Minister for Justice had read was alono sufficient to justify the House in quos- j tioning the wisdom of the appointment. : Mr. J. A. Young (Waikato) paid a ' tribute to tho abilities of Mr. Northcroft, who, ho said, was a wise, strong man, capable of dealing with difficult situations. When lie had been appointed ho was receiving £377 a year m, superannuation,; so that tho State was benofiting by tho non-payment of this sum. Out of his salary of £700 lie had ■ now to pay £70 towards superannua- i tion. The not benefit of tho appoint-' mcnt to Mr. Northcroft was only £252 a year. i ' . ■Mr. C. K. Wilson said that during tlie timo of tho late Government tho affairs of tho Cook Islands got into adeplorable position, and when tho Reform party wanted to have the state of things improved they got no help from tho gentlemen now on tho other side of tho House. Ho believed Mr. Northcroft's appointment was a good one, and ho had private advico from people in -the Islands and from visitors to the Islands that Sir. Northcroft's control would -be good for the Islands and would -make for better government there. Things had improved a great deal already. It was truo that Mr. Northcroft was getting' up in years, but his knowledgo awl experience must bo valuable there. Also, it was not easy to get a suitablo man to exile himsoll to tho Island. Tho Hon. A. T. Ngata thought it' would bo no great loss to tho Cook group if tho immigration of Europeans were discouraged. It would not be a bad thing for tho Empire if thoro were in tho Pacific a reserve for tho Polynesian race. Ho had always been doubtful about tho advantage of civilisation to the Polynesians, Mr. A. E. Glover urged tho Minister to arrange that a doctor should occasionally visit tho outlying islands of tho group. Mr. T. Buxton spoke of tho need for a better accommodation houso at Rarotonga. The amondmont was defeated on tho voices at 10.40 p.m., and tho Cook Islands voto passed.

THE BATTLESHIP. PROTESTS AGAINST EXPEND!■ TURE. On Miscellaneous Services, £40,191, Mr. A. H. Hindmorsli protested

figniasfc tho expenditure of £10,000 in connection with tlio visit of H.M.S. New Zealand. It seemed to liira a very heavy expenditure of public money. Mr. Massey: Mostly for the carriage cf school children. Mr. Hindmarsli said lie did not believe that tho carriago of tho children to the ship had done the children any ' good physically, nor could their visiting tho ship in such crowds that they could Bee nothing have had any educational ealue to them. Ho did not believe New Zealand could afford to spend as much ns\ £10,000 on tho visit of a battleship. Had the country any right to spend this money while so many things, especially education)' were starved? He submitted that it had not. ■ He hoped that he would not bo accused of disloyolty, for he claimed to bo as loyal as anyone in New Zealand. The Hon. J. Allen said that of tho

amount, some £3000 had been- paid to , tho -Marine Department for tlio 'Use of the Tutanekai. Special trips ' arranged for officers and men resulted in tho payment of £1000 to tho Railway •Department. Tlio payments had really boon made from ono pocket into another, and wero not an expenditure of actual cash.

Mr. G. Witty Baid that the school Children who had seen the vessel had learnt a most valuable lesson. With regard to the proposed contribution of '£000 towards the Captain Scott Memorial Fund, the speaker asked how It was to bo applied. The Bluff Grievance. Sir' Joseph Warid fcomplained thaj? H.M.S.• New Zealand had net remained Bt the Bluff for a long enough period to allow the residents of the district to go on board. Ho,had seen the itinerary in London before the ship left England, and provision was tthen made for a stay at the Bluff. He did not know Who made' the change, and put no blame on anyone.' The Primo Minister said that the Government had had absolutely nothing to do with tho arrangements made for the stay of the vessel in different ports. Captain Halsey had absolutely" refused to stay for any length of time in any port where there was not safe anchorogo. ,The speaker and the Hon. Mr. Bell had dono their best to persuade Captain Halsey to comply with a strong request from Southland people to make n longer stay, and had consulted the Government en the matter. He produced a big' budget of correspondence on the, question, including a lotter from the secretary of the Navy League at Invercargill, thanking tho Ministry for its efforts. The Government had not attempted to alter the itinerary, except to get an extra, day's stay each at tue Bluff and New Plymouth. Sir Joseph .Ward said that the general itinerary had been fixed loijg before the vessel reached New Zealand. He was Home at the time, and received & cablegram from his electorate that the Bluff had been left out. Ho consulted the Lords of the Admiralty and the Secretary of States for the Colonies, and was assured that tho Bluff was included in the ship's itinerary. It was most • unfortunate that the people of Southland had been denied an opportunity of seeing the vessel, and "he pro-i tested on their behalf. It was erroneous to say that there was not a safe anchorage at tho Bluff.

Mr. G. J. Anderson (Mataura) said that he had been bitterly Bisappointed when he found that the. Dreadnought was to make such a short stay at the Bluff, but he denied that the ship had not boon given a long stay for political purposes, in order to injure Sir Joseph iWard in his Electorate. People had wrongfully sought _ to make political capital out of the incident.

Mr. J. V. Brown condemned the members of tho Ministry; for having said nothing at any time 'Sir '-. Joseph Ward's connection with the~gift of the Dreadnought. He also spoke of the arrangements for visiting the ship, at Wellington, which compelled all visitors to pay Is. before they could see the ship. Not the Fault of tha Ministry. The Hon. W, F. Massey, said he had always believed that Imperial matters ought to, bo kept beyond and above party, and he had very, little faith in tho imperialism of the man who used hia Imperialism lor party purposes. The Government had had nothing to do ■with ordering the movements of the ship in tho various ports of New Zealand, and it "was no fault of the Government that the vessel lay out in the stream here.' Captain Halsey (lid exfiptly as he liked with the . vessel. No member of the Ministry knew anything of the proposed itinerary, until tho ship was in vV'eiiington Harbour, and in that itinerary the iiiuff was included. The only two Ministers who saw tho itinerary were himself and Mr, Bell, and. they had tried their best to induce Captain Halsey to give another day to Blulr and to New Plymouth. It was unfortunate that people in several ports had not, owing to bad weather, had a chance' of' seeing the ship, and delays owing to .weather shortened the ship's stay at Bluff; but Captain Halsey had deoided to take no risks on the New Zealand coa.sts, and he would not alter his arrangements to go inside Bluff Harbour. For his own part, he was only sorry that Sir Jpseph Ward had not . been in New Zealand to assist in giving the battleship a proper welcome. Mr. G. \V. Russell also said the members of tiho Ministry, and especially Mr. Massey, had been ungenertma in keeping silence at all public lunctions about Sir Joseph Ward's part in the presentation of the battleship. New Zealand. He also accused tho Ministry of extravagance. The Hon. W. F. Massey said he had been charged with being ungenerous. He oould defend himself, but he did not propose to do so. He had accepted an invitation to visit Christohurch when the ship was in Lyttelton.' He went to Rangiora to a very successful function fiven to the men. Mr. Buddo, tho memor for the district, had'beon there, but Where were the other Canterbury members? , ■ Mr. Witty: On board tho ship. Mr. Massey: Yes, they woro with tho bracers. (Laughter.) He had attended a ball for the officers at Christchurch, elso, and had found no Canterbury members there. Mr. Russell: I don't think they wero our crowd at. the ball. Mr. Massey: Was your crowd at the other function? It seems to me tho hon. gentleman has no crowd in Canterbury if they wero not at either of theso functions. < Extinction of Hulas, . Mr. W. H. D. Bell asked for an exBlanation of the item, "Cost of transferring huia birds, £100." Ho understood that two son roll parties had been Sent out without finding any birds. Mr. H, G. Ell said that tho voto for birds had been put on tho Estimates some years ago at his suggestion. Ho was very sorry that specimens had not been found, and hoped that they had not been totally destroyed by tho VTanton vandalism of certain people. At 1.10 p.m. .tho voto passed*.

LABOUR VOTE PABSED. SPEAKER RESUMES CHAIR. , Sir Joseph Ward suggested' that it was a eruitablo time for the adjournment of the House. Tho Prime Minister said he would' bo pleased to adjourn if the Labour Estimates were put through that nig Tit. He would then ask that tho Speaker take tho chair for ordinary business the following day, and tho Estimates would be takon again on Friday. He. would expect a good night's work on Friday. Sir Joseph Ward said ho did not object to the Labour vote going through but lio could not givo any undertaking as to what would liappen on Friday. The Class', Department of Labour, £28,887, then went through without a yoioo being given against it.

No Labour members wore in tho Chamber at tho time. ■ Progress was thon 'reported, tlio Spoaker taking tlio chair for tlio first time since 3.45 on Friday afternoon. Tlio House rose at 1.17 a.m.