HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Dominion, Volume 1, Issue 8, 4 October 1907, Page 6

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

LAND AND INCOME ASSESSMENT : BILL. • BY MEMBERS. At the commericenient of • the business in tho House of Representatives yesterday Mr. 'T. ''Pariita (Southern Maori representative) ~caused somo amusement by jising,.. and,, by way of making personal explanation,, saying that he had called for a> division on .the third.-rending of .tho Landand income Assessment" Bill tho previous ■night-in-order : to : sec wlip ■' woro in favour and who against tho measure. This explanation" apparently was to havo it recorded in Hansard that he was not against the Bill. ~„, ' Mr. Hogg (Masterton), who' tho previous night had acted similarly, roso to follow his Nativo colleague's oxample. .■■•■;. •■■ '■ ■ ' Tho Speaker informed' Mr. Hogg he had already made /.a statement. The House showed amusement, but Air. Hogg stood firm.until assured by tho Speaker that his explanation of tho previous night as to the way he had voted had been-recorded in Hansard.. PUDLIC SERVICE REFORM. THE BILL INTRODUCED. .■ Discussion was.resumed on Mr. A. U. Barclay's Public Services Reform Bill., ■• ■ ;;••:•:•-.'• .'. -• Mr. Hogg continued'the debate. Mr. Bennot (Tiiapeka) immediately afterwards rose aha' moved 'that the question be not, put, which, was practically a motion,to prevent further debate. ■ . •'.''. ' - : '■■■ .-. ;Tho Speaker ■ asked for a 'seconder, but for some timo there >was' no response, until: amidst ! Opposition .'jeers tho Government .whip, Mr./Kidd, rose and seconded the motion?. ';'"! The Closure. , : '',:' ■■'.:■■' Mr. Izard asked what this meant. Would it stop discussion, ■because, if so, "they knew what to do." Mr. Wilford: It's the closure. Mr Massoy characterised the motion as -improper. An attempt was apparently being made with tho: connivance of the Government to gag Parliament. The seconder was-the Government whip. It was a' most contemptible piece of tactics on tho part of all concerned. Hβ hoped the House would rise to the occasion- by_ refusing to agree to the proposal, Which had just come from the Government side of the House. As' representatives of 'a free people, they were supposed to have the right of free speech'in the Parliament of the country,-but an attempt was being made to Jake this away. (Hear, hear.) "•'!.'.".'. Waste of Time. . ■ '{'■ "' '/The Premier said there was no connivance in this matter oil tho 'part , of • ijhe ,;Qoverhment. .'-The ■'.procedure in to this Bill nad'been'most un'usuaU' . A. full debate could'tako place ■*.qn tho 'second reading,, which , would ; be .thefproper course Astho Govern•'mont:desired te' get-on 1 with the Land Bill;' he thought the"House' might .well let tho present debate'; bo adjourned. It was a'wish to get oh with -the business of th'e country'that was actuating the Government, and no gagging motivo,',,;., ....■,--. A Division. : The motion was then put,:and on a division being called for, the,' Voting resulted as follows:—. •• '■■ . Ayes— '"' 1 --^. Barber '..-; "..,-,.Aitkon. ■ Bonnet.., .",-■-,'..A1i50n,;,• '■. Buddo' -■-' .' ' .'E.G. Allen .". ~ .Carroll 'I .• -.;; .■: J.'Allen- ' ■Cblvin • . .-.•■ : Arnold;';. ■ Dillon ; " ''Barclay Duncan • ■'•; '■ :: Baume ':'. Flatmani.: ' '"'-" " Bollard Fowlds I '"■■ '''Fisher'!' Hall ,:i .:.-.. .W. Fraser " t '■ Hanan ■ Gtahani -i' , ,-.-i-. Hardy i ' Gray'" '. .- ~ ','!;■ '^GreenSkdo "J ■ ? Vj j'Htiustoh;, '"Herries* '. i - i ' t Kidd •■ , u '.Hogan ~''.'»'M!Gowan ■ •■•/" " Hbrnsby ■' T. * Mackenzie I za rd ";.;.A.M'Nab :,'. "Jennings .' * ■<■'"-Macpherson Lang. ! ' Millar ;•' Laurenson , ■: Ngata ■!'. . ■ Lethbridge., i ', : . r Paratii '.■ . Lawry . Ross j ■' ':. 'I/cwis' I" ■■' Rutherford ,~;-.;.,.:Majpr *• '-. Seddon • < - :• -Malcolm' • ' ; Stallworthy, * " Mander > Stevens.', ' . .Massey:..Syme's v . Mills Witty . ; -.w -Okey • •■ Ward ',; '"■'..-...; ; ,P01and-;.- ■| ..- Poole ■ .' ■ . • ■„,'•: v JRoid; ■>;. . ■ ■ Sidey . < ' ■ ■•. , ",-'■„.,, -Steward,, ; '••■- .Tanner' ■ ' •■; Wilford • .-'■■. - . ; Wood Debate Continues. Mr'W. T. Jennings (Egtiiont), who said that for 'political' reasons he had been''dismissed' from his work thirteen years ago, supported' the Bill. He considered every man with.intelligence had a right to* express his opinions. l ' ....:....",",'L . Mr. Izard did ng£; think a 'majority of the-civil servants would express a desire for the! Bill. . (Hear, hear.) Mr. Lewis (Courteniy) moved to adjourn tho'Bill for six months. Hβ traversed tho-, facts of the case at length. Ho \ also thought there was some ■"engineering" in the-pre-sent agitation, but said tho result should bo very much to Miv M'Cullough's advantage Ho pointed put the importance of tho principle underlying this question, and the necessity for deciding -whether civil servants worq to rule ;;tho* country. In . his.'opinion'thero had been too much trend in that direction in tho past. A Consistent Course. Mr. Fisher read lottcrs .which ho had sent to tho Government in Juno, 1905, calling attention to the prominent part Mr: M'Cullough was taking in politics. Ho'Vilso had'forwarded"clippings or a speech by Mr. M'Cullough. at that timo,' which ho now rcr.d,much'to tho amuse-: ment of the House, on, account' of •' : crfustic criticisms it contained of somo members'of parliament. Mr. ;Fisher. proceeded" that no reply had' been given to his letter, and the' "Voucher incidont" had prevented him from going further into .tho matter then. Ho wont' on to statb that. tHero had' riot' been rigid application of tion all round, citing tho case-of Mr.; M'Donald, of tho Defence Department in Wellington! In regard : tb Mr. M'Cullough, ho hoped tho Government would tako the proper courspy and dismiss him. The regulation should bo either enforced or expunged/' If Mr. M'Cullough was allowed to remain, thoy should cancel tho regtdation and allow every civil servant to tako an active part in tho-politics-df-tho'State; The Premier Again Speaks. " ..The Premier said ho had not intended to speak again on this matter, but it was necessary to reply to sonro of the statements. Ho asserted, in reply to Mr. Fishor, that it was incorrect that no action had been taken over his letter. Whon the letter was recoived it wae sent on for, inquiry to be mado, and tho Premier road an official reply thoroto. Cabinot had also dealt with tho matter in: January, 1906, itlihough for aomo roaeon no official roply had boon sent to Mr. Fishor. In regard to Mr. M'Donald, ho (tho Premier) had told him that,- as a mombor of tho civil sorrico, ho could not hold publio positions. Mr. M'Donald, ho understood, had therefore resigned thoso positions.', • :":. ""• Mr. Fisacr: Ho holds somo still.

Tho l'rcmicr: I am not aware that ho does. Sir Joseph Ward proceeded that tho Government were dealing with Mr. M'Cullough's case with a due recognition of their responsibility, and it was hotter that it should ho left to them. No good could como of further discussion in tho House. Various Views. Mr. T. Mackenzie (Wnikouaiti) said the importance of . this matter lay in tho position civil servants wore to occupy in public matters in tho future. Thero was no doubt that undue pressure was put upon members of Parliament by civil servants. (Hear, hear). On somo matters members should be consulted by civil servants, but not beyond a certain limit. Ho declared against public servants running tho country. In tho past thirty years too much preference had been given to political views—(hoar, hear) — and too little for ability in tho appointment and promotion of civil servants. It was for the Government to noV define the position of public sorvnnts in tho future, and for members of Parliament to stand to that definition. Messrs. Major, Flatman, and W. Fraser ' continued tho debate until 4.15 p.m., wlion Mr. Lewis's, amendment was lost on tho voices. Mr. Barclay, in replying, protested that there had been nothing inflammatory in his attitude towards this question.. He also spoke at length in reply' to . statements of various speakers. Tho motion for leave to introduce tho Bill was carried by 48 to 19. The Bill was then read first time. . LAND LAWS AMENDMENT BILL. THE SECOND READING DEBATE. MR. M'NAB EXPLAINS HIS BILL. Tho Hon. R. M'Nab rose'-to rnovo the second reading of the Land Laws Amendment Bill at 7.30 p.m. Tho galleries wore comparatively well filled, ladies especially being present in largenumbers. A round of applauso was accorded the Minister as ho moved out of his seat to the front of tho Ministerial benches. Tho Minister said that tho present Bill differed very materially from that which was brought down by }iim last session. (Mr. Mnssey: Hear, hear.) A largo portion of that measuro had been submitted in anothor form by tho Leader of tho House, and it had met with such acceptance that tho third reading was carried by fifty-three >votes to two—(hear, hear) —and evon those two only'voted against the measure in order to onable a division to bo. taken. The Scope of the Measure. Not oply word the proposals of last session covored by tho measure which had thus been accepted by the Houso, but tho now Bill went much further, and they laiow that the owners of tho estates that would bo affected by it would have infinitely preferred tho ten : years " tomahawk " clause of tho 190G Bill to ,tho graduated tax which was agreed to on tho previous night. That portion of last year's Bill Had thus been removed from discussion and contest.' Tho Government had also removed tho clauses relating. to endowments for old' ago pensions and education, and thoso would como down in a separato measuro. So that thoy would bo called upon' that evening to consider only thoso parts of the former Bill. which dealt' with the land laws themselves, apart from any limitation or endowment proposals. The 899 Years' Lease. The first point, to which'he wished .to direct attention was the doing away with the lease on perpotuity tenure which had existed smco 1892. The Hon.; T. Duncan: And that's the worst part of it. Mr. M'Nab: Well, there must bo a 1 worst part, I suppose. Ho could well understand that tho honourable gontleman looked bpek with pleasant momories to tho time when he helped to pass that measure into law. Ho wished 'to show to what extent the ',999 years' lcaso had been taken advantage of. The Crown lands returns of last yoar showed that thero wore in New Zealand 7-528 lease-in- ' perpetuity holders of ordinary Crown lands, being an area of. 1,605,850' acres, with a capital, valuo of £1,469,485. On the Cheviot estate thoro were 210 leaseholders under that tenuro, holding 26,827 acres, the capital value boing £146,424. Thoro wore also under tho Lands for Settlement Act, 3566 lease-in-perpetuity tenants, with 651,024 acres, of a capital value of £3,912,627. The totals of all thoso on March 31 last wore 11,298 settlers, 2,253,765 acres of Crown land, and a capital valuo of £5,528,547. These men wero to hdkl the land for 999 years, and ho wanted the " lion, mombers who wero interested in tlio freehold or in the leasehold system to look 'at the position that was arising if this system of leasing was to continue, without any falling back of the land to tho Crown. The Tenants' Crowing Interest. ' One point that would ariso, apart from the fact that tlieso tonants. formed an ever-increasing number who would clamour for the freehold, was that tho interest of the tenants in tho land would go on increasing year by year, while the interest of the Crown would remain constant, or, ifanything, would diminish a little, and after a number of years had elapsed the people of tho country would begin to look upon tho holders of thoso lands, .not as tenants; but as persons who wero making a monetary payment to the Crown, which had'to go on for a term of 999 years. Any other relation between tho Crown and these men' would be forgotten, and as their interest in tlio land still increased, thoy would ask all tho more vigorously to bo allowed to convert those annual payments into a sum of money down, and to bccomo possessed of tho full capital valuo of tho land. Thus a.day would como when there would not bo any tenants of the Crown, for, as tho interest of the tenants in the land increased and their -demands grew greater, thoro would bo a less inclination ■ on tho part of the rest of the people to maintain a condition that-■would-bo neither a lease from tho Crown nor a fee simple. Therefore,' if they wero to have a smaller area of" Crown land, they should see 1 to it that it was held under a proper leasehold system. That was why ho asked the House to do away with the 999 years', lease, and consider a leaso with a term of 66 years. Tho Sixty-six Years Lease. " Some members thought tho term was too short and somo thought it was too long—(hear, hear) —but ho asked thom to remember that tho laud varied greatly in quality, and that, thero was somo from wlrich a man could not get mnch ; profit for a number of yoars. It was that vory class of land that required an onormous outlay to .make it productive, and one could not come down, ,aml assess that outlay years afterwards m money valuo. it was truo that native lands wore leased for twonty-ono years, with right of renewal for a further torni of tho samo duration, but ho thought that as tho forty-two ycais drew near tjicir end, tho tonants wouH bo asking for some hotter and more securo form of tenure. He thought tho sixty-six-year torm with perpetual right of renewal would bo aiair compromise to agree to in tho caso of ordinary Crown lands: In last year's Bill thoro was to bo only one renewal, but it was now songht to inako the right of renewal porpotual. Valuation of Improvements. At tho expiration of tho sixty-six yoars, tho landlord and tho tenant would oacli appoint an arbitrator, and thoso two wonld choose a third. Thus

both parties would have a say in fixing tho value of the improvements and tile rental to. bo paid for tho ensuing term. The improvements were defined by the Act of 1892 as substantial improvements of a permanent character, such as draining of swamps, clearing of bush and scrub, cultivation, trees, live fences, gardens, roads, sheep dips, tanks, embankments, protective works, and buildings. It was now proposed to go further than that. It had been pointed out that at the end of the term of tho lease it would bo difficult to ascertain the original state of-tho land, as to bush or swamp, and tho amount of work that had been required to clear or drain it. There was therefore a procedure laid down in tho Bill, by which a tenant could ask tlio Land Board to have tho condition of the land in regard to bush or swamp put on record, and that record would bo available for all .time. It would bo used by the parties in deciding what unoxhausted improvements were on the land at the end of the term. They would then oe able, to assess tho monetary value of the improvements. Minerals. . Tho Minister next directed attention to tho new clause 15, providing that the lessee jshould not havo tho right to the minerals on tho land without a license, but omphasised the fact that sub-section 5 gavo him the right to uso tho minerals ot his land for agricultural, household, and building purposes on the land. Partial Purchase. Clause 16 contained a most important provision. Last year's Bill allowed any tenant of tho Crown to pay off, in amounts as low as £10, up to 50 per cent, of the capital value of tho land, and the rent would be reduced as tho payments were made. When 50. per cent, had been paid off, tho rent would-be reduced by one-half, and. the conditions under which 'the laud was held would then bo materially altorod, . to the advantage of tho tenant, as provided in sub-section 1: —" When and so long as the payments so made are equal in tho aggregate to 50 per centum of the said capital value, tho lesseo shall for the residue of the term havo possession of the land freed from all covenants and conditions contained or implied in the lease other than the covenant to ..pay_ ront and tho conditions as to residence, but the lesseo shall not thereby obtain any right to extract minerals or commit any other waste or depreciation of tho land." Varying Conditions. Regarding the conditions for Crown tenants, it had been coniplained that conditions that had suited one part of the colony would not suit others. Ho believed there was a- very great deal in this. One class might bo ablb to carry on under one set of conditions that in another caso would ab--1 solutcly ruin tho land. It was iiupossiblo to prescribo ono set for the whole of the colony. Undor the Bill thcro would bo greater power to afiy person by paying off half the amount and thereby reducing his. rent ono half to obtain freedom to carry on his land under any condition ho liked. By tho tenant paying down this sum of money and to that extent becoming interested in tho property, the State had a sufficient guarantee that ho would use' his property in the manner of- ono who properly cultivated the land. They could oven leave it to him to determine under what system he ,would cultivate. The money was paid into tho Lands for Settlement account and thenco into tho Consolidated liovonuo account, : ' Dummyism. Dealing with the "dummy" clauses; the Minister said all phases of this question wero provided for as they developed. This dovclopmont of dummyism during tho last ten or twelve years provided an interesting study. He believed it was very essential to dummyism that the lands should bo disposed of under the ballot system. If the House decided to retain the ballot, hon. mombors must be propared to put on the Statute Book laws to deal with the system. At present "a settlor went in all directions and gathorcd up as many peoplo as ho could to enter for the lands under some arrangement by which, at a future-'-date, no matter who secured it, ho himself .would be the central figure .to whom it would come. However, he did not want to convoy the impression that tho great bidk of applications came from dummies. The great bulk woro absolutely genuine—(hear, hear)T-but there was no doubt a fair proportion wero , dummies. In the Lands for Settlement ' Act tho conditions wore moxe stringent than undor tho Crown Lands Act. If tho greator portion were dummies, they would find that under the Lands for Settlement Act very few peoplo would bo applying for tho land. But it was not so. A close search by the Crown Lands officers showed that only a small deduction should be made for dummies. The Remedy. The provisions they proposed to apply to this question 'were contained in section 48 and subsequent clauses. They wanted to divide the applicants into different • classes. When tho applications wero received, they wero divided into tho landless and those that had land. Clause 48 defined the landless. When this division was made, thero was a further distinction mado under sections 49 and 50. The landless wero then to be separated into thoso who had families and those who had not, and out of these again those who had been formerly unsuccossful at land ballots got further preference. Ho gave an instance to show that these provisions would have operated satisfactorily. In this caso 159 married men would have had the preforenco against 391 unmarried. A Member: No chance for the bachelor. The Minister: No hopol (Laughter.) The .Minister said that the whole or tho eleven sections must have gone to the married men with families. (Hoar, hear.)- Tbc result of tho deal would be that, instead of individuals, men with families would be put on tho land. (Hoar, hoar.) Undor tho new . system dummyism would be very much more difficult because thoso who tried to work it would have to get married men to appear for tho'm: (Hear, hoar.) The Renewable Lease. ■ Coming to the renewable loaso, the; Minister said.it was proposed to allow tho loase-hi-pcrpotuity holders, who wore complaining that their rents were too high, and that they wore unable to continuo to pay—thcro were somo in tho Dominion at' tho present timo —to allow them to convert into renewable leases at tho present value. They proposed to givo additional power so that if a settler applied to havo his holding converted within two years of the passing of the Act,, the conversion would da.to back -to tho time of that change, and the higher ront would be so arranged that, if tho ronewal was afc tlio lower rental, any excess paid would bo credited to the man. This was undor clauso 18. It was also intended to make provision, so that in a mining district, whore sections wero hold under occupation lease,, tho tonants also could come in and convert into, tho renewable leaso. These woro le.isns that had been granted, and on which therq wore reserved to tho Crown cortain rights in respect to mining. Rights of L.I.P. Settlers. Doaling with tho Li.p. settlors, he said that last yoar in tho Bill as it was brought down it was proposed to allow tho freehold to bo granted, but tho land should bo put up to public competition, and tho frcohold disposed of in that way.' Now tlio tenant in I possession was to bo givon the right

to got tlio freehold at present-day valuation. That was a subject about which there was some difference of opinion. (Hear, hear.) Some thought the right should bo given on the original value. (Hear, hear.) Others that it should be granted with a fifty per cent, increase on the value. It would be found in many cases that if this privilege wore granted in lands for settlement cases, that the increase of fifty per cent, on the original value would produco a larger sum than was represented by the present -value; and while it was logical that the freehold should bo granted on the original or present value, he could not see the logic of those who said fifty, sixty, or seventy per cent, should- be added to the original value. Preventing Aggregation. In connection with leases that had been converted there was this point, that lion, members must remember that it would not, be to the best interest of the country if they wore to allow thoso lands, which, tinder.the present system were, so locked up that they could not be joined with other large holdings, and beheld by one individual—it would not bo fair once they granted the right to the tenants to get tho freehol dthat they should allow them to sell in.such a way that a man could buy them up in considerable numbers, and aggregate them in largo estates. (Hear, hear.) It. was a very difficult question to deal with in a way that would give security to tho purchaser that his transfer would not bo upset, and at the same time carry on tho limitation. He bolievcd he could submit to the House when in committee on the Bill clauses that would secure that once the land was sold by the Crown to those people who had converted, it would be kept under conditions of transfer until it was a freehold for all time, .and so prevent aggregation. (Hear, hoar.) He would submit the clause before the Sill iwas in committee. Ho proposed that there should be a register on tho title that would bo issued to tho people who converted into tho freehold —a certificate of titlo would bo recorded on the face of it to tho effect that any person buying the land had to make a declaration showing he was not the holder (with land already in his possession) of areas greater than tho maximum quantity ■ allowed at the present day.. To provide against such land being registered accidentally, or by deceiving the Registrar, the Government intended to make provision for tho Supreme Court • to be,called into requisition by. the Minister of Lands, with power to decree that within a certain time the owner of the . land must reduce .his holding to the area he held when the transfor was made. ' Penalties were provided for breaches of any such decree. If tho proposed clauses were approved by the House ho would ask that they bo extended to cases of tenants who purchased under'a right of purchase, so that tho law on this point should apply to all transfers made after it was put on the Statμto Book. . . Platform Utterances. That would not interfere with tho rights of those who had already got .the freehold, but would put to the test those who in platform utterances had urged that thoir solo objection,to the limitation clauses was that they interfered with lands purchased without a knowledge of the existence of such a law. They would now have an opportunity of showing by.their notes that they were sincere in those utterances. There were certain amendments made in clause 22 and onwords. That in clause 24" provided Government should have power to fix the forms of declaration to fit various sets of circumstances. Conditions of Transfer. It was proposed to require that before a transfer should'be allowed the tenant should have resided on the land for two years, , 'and even then' the consent of the Minister should 'be necessary. Mr. Massey: Ordinary Crown lands? Mr M'Nal): Yes. It wi»s already, provided'for under the Lands; for Settlement Act, although- the provisions for meeting special circumstances under that Act wore not sufficiently clastic. When, however, thoy had a genuine tenant in possession, they should give him ample opportunity to transfer to anyone who could make tho statutory _ declaration. In clauso 29 fresh provision was introduced, under which.land could be divided intp three classes. Clause 31 aimed to prevent tho disposal of unsurveyed land without duo publicity and possibly some favouritism, for he considered it advisable 1 that unsurveyed land when applied for should be advertised at least three times in thenewspaper circulating in the district. Section 38 enabled an adjacent runholder in certain cases to take up land lying idle; and section 39 enlarged'tho cropping rights of pastoral lessees. ' ..-■•■ Deathbed Wishes. The object of section 58 was to mako clearer ■what was to happen on the death of a Crown tenant, and remove the fear that existed in some, minds lest their wishes might not bo respected by tho Land.. Boards. Duties of Cash Purchasers. Under the. principal Act a cash purchaser received a certificate, and had to do certain things within a period of sevon years. Frequently thoso conditions woro forgotten by tho purchasers and not carried out, and as a consequence a position aroso for which tho Act did not provide. The Board could not forfeit the land, or give an extension of time, and the . land consequently' belonged neither to tho Crown nor to tho purchaser. Clause 61 now gave power to grant an extension of tiino for the conditions to bo fulfilled or the land to bo forfeited. Wood Pulp Areas. Provision was made under'another clause for peoplo who wanted to embark in the manufacture of wood pulp to have set aside for them areas of country which would be unsuitable for other purposes. Land for Settlement. , As to-tho suggestion that tho Government had not boon carrying out tho Lands for Settlement Act with sufficient vigour, the Minister stated .that up to September 20 tho Government had actually paid out in cash £2C)9,415, and tho ; liabilities pn October 1 amounted to £524,000. Thcso figures would dispose of tho suggestion that tho Lands for Settlement Act had not been adequately made uso of. (Applause.), THE LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION. ' Mr. Massey said tho Minister had dealt with his measure somewhat softly, and it would now be for him to put the other side. He did not intend to follow him through all tho details ho had dealt with, but would confine himself to the more important proposals, and the general principles underlying tho Bill. , Abandoned Proposals. Ho very much regretted that ho had to correct the Minister's very first statement. The Minister had said — and ho challenged him to say that ho did not—that the main proposals of last year's Land Bill were dealt with on tho previous night. Now what wore the features of last year's measure? In tho first place it was to have been mado impossible for any settlor to acquiro the freehold. Secondly, after ten years, it would be impossible for anyone to hold more than £50,000 worth of land, unimproved value. Thirdly, a man would bo unablo to buy more than £15,000

worth of land. Did any of these proposals appear in tho Land and Income Assessment Bill of this session? He regretted to have to say that the Minister had begun' his speech with an absolutely incorrect statement. The Present Bill Criticised. Corning to the Bill now before the House, they found that the principle of the freehold, for which the Opposition contended, was present to a certain extent in tho Bill, with the exception of the provisions for endowment lands. He asked why a sixtysix years' lease should be given in the caso of ordinary Crown lands, and only thirty-three years in the case of Lands for Settlement lands. Although there was much in the present Bill that he approved of, ho considered that, as a whole, it would not be nearly so satisfactory as the present law. The clause dealing with minerals (clause IS) was typical of the whole Bill. A Crown land settler in tho Auckland province would be unable to take out gum, stone, or clay unless he first went to tho Crown Lands Commissioner and obtained a license. Mr. Witty: So ho would under a private lease. , The only Benefit to the Settler. Mr. Massey: Yes, but wo want to' improve on private leases. Yet (continued the Leader of the Opposition) tho only advantage to be allowed to the settler under this Bill was to enable him to lend money to the Government at a low rate of interest. Did the people who inspired the Bill —and he supposed the Minister of Lands had as much to do with it as anybody—did they think / a country settler had an income of £1000 a-year with 30s. a day travelling expenses whether he travelled or not? If the lion, gentleman knew anything about the subject, he would know that tho settler's best bank; was the land he hold and occupied. The right thing to do, both for the settler and the country, would be to give him the option of the freehold, instead of proposing, to give tho opportunity of investing his surplus cash with the Government. . ■ " Nine-tenths of a Freehold," Then there was tho 90 per cent, proposal, which the Minister made a good deal of when ho was speaking during the recess. Ho was then in the habit of saying that he was giving the settlers nine-tenths of the freehold. It was absolute nonsense. Even if he'gave 99-looths of the freehold in that way, it would not be really worth one-hundredth of the real freehold, because the man would still be a tenant, under supervision, and liable to bo turned out. In regard to the clauso.to .allow, holders of 999. year leases to convert' into tho new 6G or 33 year leases; no settler "who was making a success of his holding would bo innocent enough to do-any-thing of that sort. They might not be satisfied- with the 999 year lease, but they would greatly ; prefer it to the shorter terms. ■ . Option of Purchase. Tho clause which seemed to him, and to many members and settlers, tho most important, was clause 19, which conferred the option of purchase. Ho did not agree .with the dotails, but tho principle was there, and it would bo for tho freehold party in the House and. the country, , now that tho thin end of the wedge had been inserted, to'drive it. home, until every settler on rural lands under the Crown had tho right to acquire the freehold. Di- : rectly a settler acquired tho freehold he became an enemy of the Socialists who were'undermining the prosperity of tho country. On tho question whether the land should be acquired by tho settler on the original or tho: present value, the Minister /had changed his mind since last year. Ho said last year that it would be an outrageous thing to let the tenant have the land at the original value. Now, the cost of administering tho land, and the interest on the money borrowed to buy it, exceeded what Government received • from the tenants.' Instead of sottlers asking for tho freehold, the' Government ought to bo' asking them to take if up. •' Tho Minister for Justice knew all about this subject, (laughter), and could look forward to' 1000 years hence, when the land would come back to the Crown, but no business man would give any-, thing for tho reversion. The Goodwill. In themeantime tho tenants had been allowed to sell the goodwill of their holdings—he did not object to that —so that if the freehold were now to be acquired at tho present value, the settler-who had bought the goodwill from another would pay'for it ■ twice'over. ' Mr. Laurenson: Is thero such a fool as to do that in New- Zealand ? Mr.' Massey:. No; and that shows that tho proposal is intended to be impossible. That is what we contend. Freehold and Defence. Proceeding, Mr. Massey contended that the Lands for , Settlements tenants, as well as those on ordinary Crown lands, should have the option of purchase. Closer settlement would be more successful, if combined'with the option of purchase. They should legislate to discourage aggregation and give tho settler as securo a tenure as possible. Yeoman farmers, each farming ]iis own land, would ho bound to , it by tho strongest or ties, and tho colony could rely on them for its defence. • ■ Valuation for Resumption. Mr. Massey protested against clause 06, which provides, that the valuation of land taken compulsorily by'the Government shall bo based upon the valuation for taxation. It.was not true that a man really valued his own land. It was done according to the ideas of tho valuer. Under the present law, again, a man whoso land was taken was granted compensation, not only for the land, but also for injury to his business. That was to bo altered now, and men of' energy, enterprise, and industry were virtually warned to leave the country. Tho Thirty-Three Years' Leasq. • With respect to ■ ' tho tliirty-thrco years' lease for land-for settlements holdings, it would bo found that when tho end of tho term drew near tho tenant, who wanted to renew, would let the property run down, so that tho rent might not bo so greatly increased. If ho wanted to sell out' ho would mako the best show he .could, with his improvements. It was duncult to say whether the Bill really rellncted tho views of tho Minister.; Thoy did not know what his opinions on the land question wero, but ho seemed to bo not so much a Minister for Land as a '.' Minister against settlers." The text "unstable as water, thou shalt not excel," would apply to him. Other Clauses. Clause G9, which enablo dtho Government to , acquiro land for workmen's homes within fifteen miles of any borough, would leave very few. holdings over fifty acres throughout the Dominion securo. Ho hoped the ballot system would bo reinstated, with safeguards against aggregation and conditions as to residence and transfer, so as to defeat speculators and give the genuine settler a chance. (Applause.) • . '■. Tho Premier. Sir JoseJDh Ward proceeded to criticise Mr. Massoy's statements. Ho stiid tho latter had remarked on tho riiffcronco between the present and the last Land Hill. This tlideience lay in the fact thiit-in the last Bill the pro-

posnls were all combined, which prevented Parliament from , having a straight issue on each question, and legislation on those lines would 'have been blocked for all time. The Government now provided that members should bo ablo to vote on each proposal. The advantage of this arrangement was exhibited in the caso of tho Land and Income Assessment Bill the previous night. Tho proposals of that bill were mixed up before in the original proposals. The Freehold. It was proposed to give the optional S p i? m y >tm the whole of tho balance or the Crown lands except those re served for endowments which was going a long way to meet those who wanted to freehold. ' Under the three Bills they had an advanced system of lan dtaxation with the prevention of the growth of large estates and inducements to those who had then to cut them up. In addition the whole of tho lease-m-perpetuity settlers would be able to convert at tho present day valuation. TJ e explained whv the Land for Settlement settlers were not put on the same basis as those under the lease-in-perpetuity system. It was dono to prevent in tho future the perpetuation of the evils they had had in the past. They were not reducing the optional system under the present jaw; they were continuing it. As to borrowin money at a higher figure than it was lent to local bodies, the Premier pointed to the benefit 'tho country had derived in the way of steady development and defended the system. The system of cutting .up large estates and settling them had also been good. Socialism, . Referring' to Mr. Massey's stateinents regarding socialism,' he said that, in one application of the term, the State becomc socialistic inimediately it assumed .control of the railways. He ridiculed Sir. Massey's application of the word. As to'the man who wanted to acquire the freeholdafter he become prosperous on his leasehold—such a. man should remember his less fortunate brother who wanted to make a start in life and give him the chance lie himself had had. (Hoar, hear.) , It was no difference whether that man got . a Crown lease or an endowment so long as he got the land. Tho country would have to provide for the futuro ,when the old age. pensions and the educational system would demand increasing provision. . As regard the purchase of 'estates,, a fictitious valuem some cases had been unavoidably given in the past, but this .tho'new Bill sought to avoid, while it also pio.vided that the vendor should be-treated equitably, where compulsory purchase was made. In conclusion, the Premier asked that this question be-treated dispassionately, and without bias, and that the welfare of the,country might be pro< "vided for. . , OTHER SPEAKERS. V Tho Hon. C;i H. Mills agreed with' much of the Bill, but strongly objected to the abolition of the Lease in Perpetuity, which was the work of the late revered Sir John Mackenzie. What the Government should do was to show that tho State was the best landlord in tho country. Wo should not' under-est-imate the value to the Stato of the 'man himself- who went on tho land in the back blocks. It was ■ not the men who had bceirfifty years on the land who advocated a shortening of the lease, but-tho purely city mon. .The' conditions of town and country in regard to leases were vastly different. The lcase-in-perpdtuity tenure in the past had been a strong power to attract men to tho land, and lie should vote against its abolition. Ho would support limitation' of, areas, arid the proper development of native lands. ' Mr. W. Frascr (Wakatipu), opposing the Bill, declared that the freehold clauses—the provision to sell a lease-holder-in-perpetuity his freehold at the present valuation—were inserted, solely becauso the Government knew they would not be acted on by tho tenants concerned. _ He was in favour of encouraging in our tenants a hope of someday making their farms their vary own. The provisions for substituting short leases for 999 years'leases were unpopular in the country. He strongly condemned . clause 66, which enabled the Government to'taka land compulsorily practically at its own valuation. ' Mr. Malcolm (Clutha) admitted that the'Bill was. an improvement, in the eyes • of leaseholders, on, the Bill of last year, yet he could not subscribo to it as a whole. Ho regretted that it was not intended to give facilities for holders of land for settlement land to acquire their freehold. All laud for settlement land was held on lease, and it would bo possible in course of time for the Government to bring all lite land. of the Dominion under Government leases. ! Mr. lleid (Taicri) urged better provision to.encourage tenants to search for minerals on their, lands. Mr. Flatm.au strongly supported the leasehold principle. He considered sixty-six years a fair period for the first lease", but too long for the renewal. Half ' tho farmers in • the country were farming leaseholds. . Mr. * Massey: With right. of pupchase. . '. The lion.- member said if,- when he camo first to tho colony, he could have leased land on the* present terms bo would have welcomed it. Aiv Opposition Member-, You 'would have wanted a purchasing clause. Mr. Flatman: Well, I would havo liked it... (Laughter.) Mr. Mander admitted there was a lot of good in the Bill, but it had all come from tho adoption of Opposition suggestions. (Laughter.) /What there was bad, however, they still desired to eliminate. : It'was not the land-it*', self that was of value to tho country, but tho man on the land; The' debate was adjourned on Mr. Okey's motion, and the House rose at 12,30. .