EVdfllNG SITTING.

Ashburton Guardian, Volume VII, Issue 1707, 9 November 1887, Page 3

EVdfllNG SITTING.

The House resumed at 7 30 p.m. THE MIDLAND RAILWAY. Major Atkinson pave notice of the following names for the Be'ect Committee on the Midland Railway :-Mc Allen, Sir J. Hall, Sir G. Grey, Messrs Fnlton. Raeaell, Seddon and Levestam, Blr J. Yogel, Messrs Hodgkincon, G. F. Blchardaon, E. Rlohardaon, Fyke, and the mover. THB FINANCIAL DEBATE On the motion forgoing int » Committee of Supply Sir J. Yogel said he congratulated Major Atkinson on some features of bislftnanclal Statement Fr< m a literary point of view he thought it was one of the beat ever made, It was a clever Statement, from an intellectual point of "view, though he could not Bay it wss ao £rom a moral point of view. Supposing the late Government had come down with * glntlar Budget and had shirked their doty by proposing to borrow a million more and vague retrenchment, they would hare been condemned for such proposals The promises with regard to retrenchment made m the Statement were little more than were made during the general electtoni, and Government had asked for unlimited powers. They asked to increree the property tax to exactly the same •mount as the late Government proposed to do. He proposed to chow the House what ft hollow sham moßt of Major Atkinson's retrenchment was. Ha went Into details of the savings proposed m the Financial Statement at some length, and claimed tbat had the late Government been allowed to carry out tbeir proposals, they would, taking half-year's vote against half-year's expenditure, have Bayed £93,000 op to 30th September last on tho annual appropriations. Compared with M'jor Atkinson's propooala, the late Government would have come oat £97,000 better than the Premier could show, with all hie economies thrown m. He criticised the Financial Statement at very great length. The proposal to reduce the Governor c talary would not be a real faring because m cases where th? Governor wt3 asked to visit several partb of the colony if this red potion were madp. lie would certainly rep'y to invitations of thie kind that he should pay soch F.sitF if vetes were passed by the House for these purposes* As to the reductions m M-nis terlal salatiee, he thought they were •xeeulve. He also disagree J wi h the proposals te reduce the number of Minister*. Af to the honorarium e tlon, £• fatllOTti t^at the m^orjty cf members

had expressed themselves favorabla to a reduction,- bnt he thought It should not extend beyond thlß Parliament, Looking at the near fntare, and at tbe oonßpiracy against democracy that was setting m, he should support the system of payment of members, and m consequence of that the redaction of the honorarium should only be for three years longer. He would not oppose the Bill for the reduotlon of the number of membeia seeing that the o: inion of the people was m favor of suoh a atep. Referring to travelling allowances, Jhe agreed with tha Premier that a very large saving might be made m that direction, and the late Government had made oousiderable savings m it. Aa to the repeal of tha Crown and Native Lands itatlDg Act, he quite admitted that no member from Otago or Canterbury would oppose that. It would operate Injuriously m other parts of the colony. He criticised at some length the proposals respecting subsidies to local bodies, and he contended that thoße proposals would throw on those bodies a quarter of a million of taxation, whloh they were not at present bearing. They were told that £60,000 a year was to be saved m the Education rote, and opinlona differed very muoh as to what would be the effeot of raising the school age to six year a. It would be very difficult to judge of the age of children between six and seven years ; they were told, however, that country schools were not to coffer by this proposal, and it was difficult to see how £60,000 could be saved by this item, as proposed m the Statement. If the Government made thoße Bavlngs wlthou the House being consulted, they would not be true to their election pledges, because there waft no question more threshed out during the eleo> ion than th* education qoestion, and they refused to state m what direction those savings would be made. As regards tbe savings on railways, he said if con-politioal boards were Introduced the expenditure would be reduced The non - political boards were not popular In Tlotoria with the great mass of people, and would not be popular here. Another reaßon which induced him to think there waß no real retrenchment In Major Atkinson's proposalß was tbe paragraph which proposed to put the Civil Servioe under the control of a Board irrespective of Government Interference. Government, In his opinion, bad no defined idea of what they proposed to do. Be contended that the whole purpose of the Budget was to get them Into tbe way of living on borrowed money, and he asked any reasonable person if tiny amount of retrenchment would meet the necessities of the country unless the Oostoma revenue were increased. The Customs revenue at present was lower per head than it had been for many years. He would tell the property tax payers that whenever the time came for increasing taxation and the Customs revenue was not increased, it was simply because a weak Government was afraid to brinp the question before the House. He was not dealing with freetrade or protection, but this was a question that concerned all alike, vfz., to raise the Customs revenue because the revenue of the colony was not sufficient to meet tbe expenditure. Referring to the proposal to borrow a million of money with a three years' guarantee, he warned the House that to give fiucb a guarantee was a very dangerous thing. He would not taunt tbe Premier with the fall m New Zealand stock at present. The Financial Statement had no doubt caused a littlo alarm, not because of the retrenchment proposed, but owing to the fact that when a new loan was propoeed, the Agent-General would have to make it known that there was a deficit last year. He believed that if they faced the market at the proper time they might get a good price for the loan, but he was strongly against the proposal to borrow two millions. He thought a million and a half quite enough. He was altogether opposed to making a nominated branch of the Legislature a more powerful branch, and it was tota'ly opposed to liberal principles, aa it would absolutely give superior power of government into the hands of a nominee body. He heard that the Government were now so much ashamed of this proposal that they now said they had no intention of putting an absolute limit to the number of Legislative Councillors, but to bring the two Houses together m case of disagreement. With respect, to emigration he felt convinced the House would listen with reppectful attention to the proposals of the Government, and the pensioner settlements would have to be carefully considered He would not diaeq/a the system of land settlement on that occasion. He considered the Native land question one of extreme importance, p.n-i there was no Bubjeor m which tbe Houao should be mere anxious to help the Government than this one. He wished to say tbe present Government occupied a singularly weak position m the House, The idea of carrying on that Government was that the Premier WBB the leaser of two evils, and thai if the House had not Major Atkinson it would have him (Sir J Yogel ) That was a curious position to take up. The country wanted just now a strong Government, and he was of opinion that until a stronger Government was formed than tie present, borrowing was to go on and retrenchment would not be made. He felt there was a great deal that he bad left unsaid, but he had no doobt there would be another opportunity of speaking during the debate. Mr Fisher eaid the speech just delivered was one of the weakest ever delivered by Sir J. Yogel. He contended that the taxation proposed by Ministers w*9 such bb be hoped would secure a reversal of the policy of the late Government. Referring to <hp aavlngß promised by the late Government, ho would remind the House that those savings were a little late In the day after their three years of ofSce. Why, the laO Government had Increased the expenditure of the country *y £100 000 a year. He eald the proeent Governm.nt had conferred great benefit on the com munity by relieving their minds on tbe question of taxation; Surely Sir Julias Yogel had occopled office long. enough In the colony to do it some good if tt was ever In his power to do it any good, but he would not ba satisfied wl'h the policy of any Government Id which he wbb not included. Nothing but office-would cult him. He would like toaak how Sir J. Yogel had saved the colonythree-quartors of a million of taxation duringthree yearo. W> y that hon gantleman had tried on I several occasions tc Impose severe taxaj tlon on tbe people, but he waa prevented by the Opposition from doing so. He pointed out that the late Government were the means of Incurring a most unjustifiable expenditure of £30000, by causing a second session at a tlma when some of their members were convinced that they could not oome back to the House la a majority. He admitted that the reductions m the Ministerial salaries were excessive, b&t the reason why they were oxceseive was because the Ministry were actuated by an boneßt desire to effect retrenchment, As to Sir J. Vogel's remarks aboutdemocraey beln? m dang»r if members were not pain, he would aßk whether the hon gentleman had said anything about the Interests of the democracy when he eoaght the suffrages of the 3Tdl mouth electors? Where was democracy then? If It were true, as abated by Sir J. Yoge!, that his Government had made large reductions m .travelling . expenses, he should like to aßk what they could have been before ? They now etood at £5700, He defended the proposals of the G >v*rnment on education, and cmi tended ihat the House had already full opportunity of axomming its opinion on It by tbw Act of 1887. He undertook to Bay thit It woud bb fonnd that the amou ,t proposed to be taken from tbe education vote would not weaken the system at al}, but rafter strengthen, It, »a therfi wap

growing up a large amount of dieoontent at the expense Incurred under thto head. As to the hon gentleman's remarks about the details of sa7lngs, he wished to Btate that when the time came Government would take the opportunity of explaining those details, deferring to Sir J alias Yogel'a statement about the House having control of the publio parse, he would like to ask how he reconciled this statement with the action of his own Gotfprnment last yoir m expending £GO,OOO of unauthorised expenditure on village settlements ? He (Mr Fißher) was aa maoh against borrowing as any man, bat he felt convinced that it was impossible for the Government to carry on at present without a further loan, and it was necessary to save the oredit of the colony. Whether the Government were weak or not, he was certp.in they were strong m the country. He contended that there never was such a time before when individual differences should be sunk m order that the country might be brought out of the oondition into which it had drifted of late years. Mr Balance said Mr Fisher had just posed aa a radical member of the Oabinet and had stated that the Government had touched the property classes through the property tax. As their sympathies were m that direction, he folly expeoted that every member of the Government would come out m the same manner, And that they would prove a full-fledged democratic Ministry. He contended that Mr Fisher had not replied to the speech of the late Treasurer, and he oombatted t^o statemeat made that the Government did not intend to touoh the wages of the working men: He gave a distinct denial to the a-sertions that Sir K. Stout had ever stated that he expected his Ministey would comeback m a minority. He condemned the reduction of Ministers' salaries, and Bald the reduction should only be temporary, and not of Bach a sweeping oharaoter. With respeot to Mr Fisher's advocaoy of a reduction m the number of members, he pointed out tbat bis views did not agree with those of the Premier, as that hon gentleman m 1881 deliberately iaoreased the number from eighty -six to ninety five. However if reports are correct, the Premier Intended to reverse maoh of what ha had pre▼toasly done, as he intended supporting the repeal of the Triennial Parliament Bill, and other liberal measures which he had been instrumental m passing. He referred at some length to the education question, and %ald the Government proposals were most illiberal m character Toe retrenchment question to bis mind was a great question of policy, and the House was entitled to full particulars of the savings. If any suhjeot was more freely discussed during the elections it was that of education, and an opinion was unmistakably expressed that primary education shoald not be interfeirad with. Hs defended the village settlement scheme, and said that there had never been more painstaking with any Boheme than there htd been to give the fullest information to the House. Not one single peony had been spent beyond the vote of the House, and he maintained there was nothing constitutionally wrong because the House had received all possible information on the matter. With respeot to railway boards, he said it was not a fact that those boards m Victoria had been an unqualified success, and he wns not at all Bure that an expert on railway boards would escape the censure which Ministers received. He thought the board would net work at ail, and there was no occasion to go to other countries to import men for thiß office. He asserted tbat Sir J. Yogel'a remarks aa to a new loan were misunderstood. That hon gentleman had given it as hia opinion tlut a million and a half was necessary for present requirements, being half a million more than was wanted for the North Island Railway. He defended hia admluhtratlon of tho Native Department, and referred to the position of the Land Fund at gome length. As to payment of members be maintained tbat the present honorarium was not too large. He was also opposed to the reduction m tho Governor's salary, and he expressed the opinion of many people when he said that the Bill to give effect to this redaction would not be assented to at Home. He thought, tho retrenchment proposed by Ministers m many Inetmces was m a wrong direction, Mr Pearson moved the adjournment of the debate to next sitting d*y. Agreed to. The House rose at 12 22 a. m,