L—9a.

73

G. H. BLACKWELL.

32. Did that constitute the weakness of the Conciliation Boards?— Yes, they had no ultimate power of settling disputes. 33. Do you think, then, that an Industrial Council, which could give a decision and immediately put it in force, would be superior to the old Conciliation Board?—l think the right of appeal 34. Oh, there is the right of appeal?— Yes, it is embodied here; but 1 think the award should not be put in force until the appeal has been heard. Anything that unsettles the working of a large industry has disastrous effects, 35. Then, in that case, does not the Industrial Council come practically into the position of the Conciliation Board ?—There is this difference: that the Council would be composed of men who knew the business under consideration. 36. But there would always be the right of either party to appeal?—So there would. I think there would be a greater degree of satisfaction with the Industrial Councils than with the Boards, for the simple reason that the men who were hearing the case would have a knowledge of the trade, and those concerned would be better satisfied of receiving justice at the hands of men who knew their business than at the hands of men who did not. 37. Does that mean that»the Conciliation Boards in former years failed through ignorance?— Yes; they had not the confidence of the public. 38. Hon. Mr. Millar.] You know that there have been very great delays in dealing with cases of breach of award through taking them all to the Court of Arbitration?— Yes. 39. You do not think it is advisable, where a breach has taken place, that a period of five or six months should elapse before the case is heard ?—No; but I think that if clause 53 is enacted you will not have so many cases before the Court, and the Court will be able to overtake the work very much better. 40. Most of the cases of breach of award are matters of fact, are they not?— Yes. 41. A Magistrate is able to deal with a matter of fact?— Not always; they are not always matters of fact. . 42. Where a case is not a matter of fact, the Magistrate has power under clause 23 to send the matter on to the Court of Arbitration for definition ?—With regard to this question -of definition, I am sure you will know all the detail work there is in connection with, say, the tailoresses' log, 'the amount of knowledge that is required for one to understand what may appear to be an insignificant point, and what effect it might have on the general working of a factory; and a Magistrate, who has never heard the case and never gone into the evidence at all, cannot be expected, in my judgment, to give as good a decision as the Court itself which heard the whole of the facts and made its award accordingly. 43. The object is to prevent this friction which constantly arises trom the undue delay that takes place'—Yes; it is very desirable that that should be remedied, and my own opinion is that by your clause 53, if you will amend it as I suggest, you will relieve the congestion of work very materially. 44 We will come to clause 53 now, seeing that you have mentioned it. You are quite aware that when a man is appointed secretary of a union—l am talking of a permanent secretary now— he ceases to be in the industry?— No. .- -45. When he ceases to be employed by any employer in that industry he ceases to be in that industry?— Yes. . . , . ~ , 46 Then the words "has been " must be there to cover a practical man being appointed secretary of the union. If you struck out the words "has been " you would practically debar any person from being the secretary of a union unless he was actually at work daily in the trade. Take the large unions here who employ permanent secretaries, who do not work at all except for the union, they would be actually debarred from having any man as a secretary unless he was daily employed in the industry?—He should be employed in the industry. 47 He is employed by the union?—lf the whole of his services are taken up by the union he cannot be employed in the industry. In that case, I think rightly, he should be debarred from taking office in the union. . 48 You would have no such thing as a paid secretary of a union at all <—1 have a better opinion of the workers than you have, apparently. I think there are plenty of capable intelligent men among the workers who'are perfectly able to manage the affairs of their union. If they confine their attention to their own union they can do so and still follow their occupation. 49 Tt is impossible in the case of a large union. Take, for instance, your own woollen-mill. Suppose a man were engaged there and was secretary of the union. He is working daily for you, and he hears that there is a dispute in Timaru, and he has to leave your mill to go down to Timaru. How long would you stand that sort of thing ?—Of course, that is an extreme case. . 50. No?—ln any case we have never discriminated against any one being m the union, and we never should. , . , . 51 We will take a bootmaker's factory in town, or a clothing-factory, and there are seven or eight clothing-factories in Christchurch. The secretary of the union is employed by you m your particular factory. He is sent for to go and look after the interests of some member of the union in some other factory, and he might have to go out two or three times a day from your business Do you think that "would be right I—ln that case, of course, they would have a sort of special officer in Timaru or in Ashburton, as the case may be. I mention those places because, as far as the woollen-mills are concerned, there are only three in Canterbury, and by having an nder-secretarv or something of that sort in the various localities they could work together. In either case if it were in the interests of the union, we should do as we did quite recently in the case o a Party who I understand, came up to give evidence before this Committee He asked for permission to go, and when he stated distinctly that it was in the interests of the union he got permission at once to go. 10—I. 9a.