51

1.—14

Mi FOX

f. Your calculations are made on a certain basis-—reducing the optional retiring-age for women from fifty-five to fifty. Are they made also upon the basis of the compulsory retirng-age being reduced five years ?—Yes, they are, practically; yes. 8. Mr. Sidey.] Under the scheme as it appears in the Bill, the capital value to make it sound is, I understand, £270,000. Does that include the increase of teachers which will take place in the future ? —No, that is dealt with quite separately. It is pointed out that for male teachers it would require £3 10s. per annum. 9. In addition to that ?—Yes. 10. Mr. J. Allen.] Which part of the scheme is the most unsound ?—The total liability that I have taken out is for the existing body of teachers —that is, £270,000 —under the proposals contained in the Bill. The existing staff, of course, will be wiped out in a number of years. I can only point out that the deficiency now shown is entirely on account of the existing members. The deficiency on account of the new members, if you assume there is any number coming in every year, will be an increasing one. The females are half of the body, at least, and the deficiency is only nominal in connection with them—it is only from £10 to £20 instead of £96. Say there are 100 new members. It will be about £200 for the first year. 11. Two pound a head ?—Yes, males and females together. And then there must be £400 the next year, and so on. It goes on in progression. That deficiency will be increasing all the time, and by the time they are all new members there will be a larger yearly subsidy necessary. 12. The Chairman.] For every teacher that goes on the fund in future there will have to be £2 a year found % —Yes, about that, taking males and females in equal numbers. 13. And with regard to females ?—On account of the heavy withdrawal of females the capital value of the deficiency is very small. It is only from £10 to £20 a head. 14. In that case, seeing that the women will be costing the State so much less by way of salary and by way of deficiency in the. fund—even if the benefits for them were extended by reducing the retiring-age —-a woman teacher would even then not cost the State anything like what a male teacher would cost it, for a pension ?—The new female entrants will certainly not cost the State nearly as much as new male entrants. 15. Then, if additional benefits were conferred upon the female teachers by the reduction of the compulsory retiring-age, each female teacher would not cost the State as much as each individual male member by way of deficiency in the fund ?—That is so. Of course they are not entitled to any death benefit beyond return of contributions. 16. Mr. J . Allen.] Can you explain to us the first column in the summary under Table 7 ?—Yes, sir. If you will take my Table 2 and add up the first three columns you will find they make that total. The first column in the summary is correctly explained as " Benefits A, B, and C : Pensions only, Return of Contributions at Death before Pension Age, and Balance of Three Years Pension at Death," &c. It does not cover benefit D, because I have set that out separately. 17. It is the " Balance of Three Years' Pension at Death " that I do not quite understand ?— That is contained in Table 2. 18. Is that in the Bill ?—-Yes. It is only a very small amount that is necessary, you see. In most of these schemes there is some similar provision. 19. That annual subsidy necessary—£23,oo0—differs from what we have had before—the annual subsidy necessary on sixtieths in addition to the teachers' contributions ?—Which does not that agree with ? 20. I understood you to say that £10,000 a year would make the fund solvent ? — You must look at it in this way —this is what makes the fund solvent : The last column gives the annual interest at 3J per cent, on the capital value. That is treating it as a permanent debt. There are two ways of treating it. If you treat the present deficiency of £270,000 as a permanent debt, this is only the interest on that, to make it solvent. 21. That is not meeting the debt :it is leaving it to remain ?—lt is paying the interest on it. It is not providing a sinking fund. 22. The other would meet the capital account, would it ?—Yes, in time. 23. Mr. Fowlds. —lt would be a diminishing quantity up to the end of the term ?—Yes. That would be only the present annual subsidy. It would alter. Mr. Hogben : I should like to make one explanation, sir. Apparently the figures given by me as the capital deficiency on benefits for women differ from those Mr. Fox has given. I should like to expla n what my £22 means. I said £22, and Mr. Fox said £19 (or £10 on the first basis). My estimate of £22 is based, not on the retirements that have taken place in the past, but on the assumption that in the future after the age of forty no women would retire unless they were medically unfit or could draw a pension; and this, I think, is a fair assumption. Mr. Fox, I suppose, has based his figures on the retirements in the past. I have modified that by supposing that no retirements will take place in future after the age of forty is reached, except in cases of medical unfitness or retirement on a pension, because it seems to me that if women teachers have passed what is commonly regarded as the marriageable age they will—provided they are medically fit—wait for the pension, If they do, that will mean that a greater number of them will come on the pension fund. So I assess the capital deficiency for each woman entering at £22 if the retiring-age be fifty, and Mr. Fox assesses the amount at £19 on the present rate of retirement. So there is no real difference between us.