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be taken into account in order to ascertain the position of a pension scheme. Moreover, if the tradesman is selling his goods for less than they cost no one would argue that his position would be improved by a continuous stream of customers, and in like manner if the contributions received from members are insufficient to pay for their pensions (unless adequately supplemented from some outside source), every fresh entrant only weakens a pension scheme. If the foiegoing reasoning, which appears to be clear, is admitted as sound, everything must depend upon the reliability of the various bases upon which the actuarial estimates are grounded. I have already explained these to you in considerable detail, and it is probable that they would receive the almost unqualified approval of expert opinion elsewhere. The practical value of competent actuarial opinion in all such matters as are essentially dependent on the contingencies of human life, in conjunction with the earning-power of money, may be gauged by the fact that, in Great Britain, America, and Australasia, there are vast accumulations of many hundreds of millions sterling held in trust for insurance and annuity purposes, which have been built up by their controllers or proprietors in absolute and strict accordance with actuarial advice. I received by the last mail, from Mr. E,. P. Hardy, the well-known actuary—than whom there is no higher authority on these matters —his recent report on an English superannuation scheme in full wqrking-order. There are some 1,300 members. Although the fund amounts to considerably over £100,000, Mr. Hardy refuses to advise an increase in the benefits, as proposed by the administrative authorities, and concludes his report with the following instructive remarks, thus conveying a warning that is much needed : " A candid study of the internal working of the society as is here $hown, should convince all hasty critics that the reserve (or accumulated) fund of a provident society, when properly set up, represents the permanent and irreducible necessities of the case, that it is not wealth (unless shown to contain a surplus), that it is not to be measured by its mere moneyamount, l)ut solely with respect to the obligations it has to meet—in fact, that it is a trust fund, solemnly pledged to maintain the integrity of the engagements mutually entered into and confidently relied upon for literal performance." The Nelson tea-pension scandal has been much exercising the minds of many people in the Old Country lately. The company has been compulsorily wound up by order of the Court with a deficiency of at least £10,000,000, estimated by actuaries of high standing. As the company had about six hundred thousand customers much hardship will result from the catastrophe. The whole affair has caused much comment in England and elsewhere, attention being called to the unfortunate position of those who have been paying considerably over and above the fair value of the tea for many years on the strength of the promises held out, and who now lose their money. Those who actually came in for pensions find them suddenly cut off, and there appears to be little chance of redress. Further developments are being awaited with interest. I have also received notices of the total or partial failure of other unsound pension schemes, referring to one of which a London financial paper says, " It is but another unfortunate example of what generally happens when amateurs meddle with things they do not understand. It was not until two eminent actuaries (Messrs. Ralph P. Hardy and George King) were called in that the bubble was pricked and insolvency demonstrated." And in reference to another the Post Magazine, the oldest insurance journal in London, says, " Quite sufficient discouragement has been given of late to the habit of thrift to make thoughtful men pause before lending their names to proposals which, however honest and well-inten-tioned, carry with them the possibility of widespread disappointment and distress. When referred to by inquirers we have felt unable to recommend an enterprise evidently started without actuarial advice as to the sufficiency of the contributions charged for the benefits offered, and whose rules showed a similar absence of any provision for expert periodical investigation." I consider it is very desirable that it should be known what trouble and disappointment are caused by schemes which are not founded on a proper practical working basis. Although, however, I consider an annual subsidy of about £10,000 is necessary to make the proposals contained in the Bill actuarially sound, it is of course, beyond question that such a fund must be solvent in practice if it possesses the guarantee of the colony, whatever the liability ma be from an actuarial point of view. 1. Mr. Allen.] Your tables cover the conference proposals, do they not ?—Yes. I might have explained that the tables are divided like this : males are divided into hundredths of the salary, eightieths, and sixtieths, each one being divided again into three schemes—whether, as according to the Bill, there is a minimum pension of £52 but no allowance for back service, or whether, as under the teachers' proposals, there is no minimum pension but back service is counted, or whether both the minimum pension of £52 and back service are provided for. Female teachers I have taken only at sixtieths, because it was never propo ed that it should be anything else but sixtieths. This is divided, first of all, as to whether there is a full return of premiums at death or withdrawal, or only half return of premiums on withdrawal during the first fifteen years. 2. Have we got the particulars with regard to Mr. Davidson's suggested amendments ?—I only received Mr. Davidson's suggested modifications on Monday or Tuesday, and am going on with them, but I have not had time to complete them. 3. The Chairman.] When can you have them ready ?—To-morrow, I think, or Friday at the latest. 4. Mr. J. Allen.] I think there is included here the alteration of the women's retiring-age from fifty-five to fifty-two ?—Yes, in an addendum to that—a sub-report. 5. Does that mean reducing the compulsory retiring-age also ?—lt is like this : when the ages were fifty-five and sixty, the age for all going out was taken at fifty-seven 6. The calculations were made ?—On the assumption that they would all go out at fiftyseven.