L—B

24

one o nga ra o Tihoma tau, 1890. I waenga i a koe me etahi atu o tetahi taha, mo Tare Paratini o totahi taha, kia kotahi tau ki muri o tenei ra, ara, o te taenga atu o tenei tono kia koo, i raro i nga tikanga o taua pukapuka kiriimana, me whakaoti me mahi c koe he Mokete kia Tare Paratini i runga i o vvhenua katoa. Ko te nama inaianei hui katoa, te tinana tonu me te takaha me runga £51. H. Stbatton Izaed. Roia Kaiwhakahaere hoki mo Tare Paratini. 14. Hon. J. Carroll.'] At the time moneys were advanced by Mr. Pharazyn were you invited to take some ? —The interpreter came to me and said that some of the owners were drawing money, and if I wished to draw money I could have some also. I said " Yes, I should like to have some money." 15. Upon that you went and drew some money? —Then I went to Mr. Pharazyn's lawyer and asked him to give me some money. 16. At the time you drew this money were you an owner in the land?—My name was not in the title to the land ; my father's name was. 17. Then, you were not an owner when you drew this money? —No; I went to ask for this money. I was not an owner then, but I went to ask for this money, and left it for the lawyer to judge for himself as to whether I was to have money. He made no objection and paid me the money. 18. When were you appointed successor to your father?—ln 1895. 19. Then, you got a notice from Mr. lawyer to execute a mortgage before you were legally an owner in the land ?—The paper that I have handed in shows that. That is the only paper I have had. 20. Can you tell the Committee whether the sum drawn by you was debited to your father as well as to yourself ?—No; the money drawn by my father was charged to him, and the money drawn by me was charged to me. 21. What did you do after you got notice to execute the mortgage ?—I did not execute the mortgage, but I thought I would return to Mr. Pharazyn the money I had received, which I did in 1896. I repaid the sum of £120. 22. Did you repay at the same time what your father had received ?—Yes; that included both what my father had received and what I had received. 23. Do you know of any other cases besides your own where moneys were advanced to those who were not in the title on account of this mortgage ? —I believe that the same was done with the others ; the money was paid to them before they were the owners of the land—when they were not owners of the land. 24. You cannot say positively that any one was in the same position as yourself—drawing money when they were not owners of the land ?—Yes; Hohopa Aporo was one, that is Piripi's younger brother, and his sister Ani Eatima was another. Te Kahu-o-terangi was another in a similar position. That is three I know who were in a similar position. 25. The Chairman.'] Have they paid it off ?—I do not think they have returned the money. 26. Hon. T. Kelly.] When you signed this paper with the stamps on it, did you know the nature of the deed you were signing?— Yes; the interpreter explained to me the meaning of that paper. 27. What was the meaning of it ?—He said it was a mortgage. He explained to us that we should have three years for returning this money, and that if we were unable to repay it in three years the term would be extended in which we might find the money to return it. He also explained to us that the rents could be used to refund this money. 28. Was this money obtained before the second lease was given by the Natives, or was it after?—lt was about the same time, but I think that we had received the money before the second lease was signed. It was about the same time, I think. 29. Can you recollect whether the deed of mortgage was signed on the same day as the lease ?— I could not say that it was exactly on the same day that the lease and mortgage were signed. If I had been one of those who signed the lease myself, perhaps I should remember. 30. We learned by evidence given by another Native that some £7,000 was borrowed by the Natives on mortgage. Do you know to what purpose the money was applied by those who borrowed it ?—No, I could not say to what purpose the others applied their money. I can only speak with regard to that which was drawn by my father and myself. 31. Do you know whether any considerable portion went to improve land owned by them in the way of fencing, building, and so on ?—I could not say, because I live more than thirty miles away. Ido not know whether this money was spent for this purpose or for any other purposes. 32. Mr. Graham.] Was it before or after you repaid the £120 to Mr. Pharazyn that you were asked to sign the mortgage of your share of the property ? —I think it was before ;in fact, the date of the papers I have put in would show it Was before. I did not sign ; instead of signing, I repaid the money. 33. Does the money you repaid represent the whole of your debt, or do you still owe anything to Mr. Pharazyn ?—No ; that cleared everything off, and I draw the rent clear. 34. So that your share of the property is clear of Mr. Pharazyn? —There is only the lease, and I receive the money for that. 35. Hon. J. Bigg.] Did you receive money on more than one occasion from Mr. Pharazyn ? Was it only on one occasion or on several ?—I went on several occasions to take money—£lo or £20 —until the amount came to £51. 36. Did you sign a document on each occasion when you received money ?—I signed that paper with the stamps on, I think, two or three times. I fancy it was the same paper. 37. You signed what you think was the same paper on each occasion ?—Yes, I believe that was so, because it looked like the same paper, and my name appeared on it above. 38. Was it interpreted to you .on each occasion ?—No; it was translated to me by the interpreter once, and then I knew what it was, and when I saw I signed the same document.