E—No. 5a

THE NATIVE OFFENDERS BILL, 1856.

Te Kawau.] Punish not the innocent, but the guilty. Paora.] What would be done with the siiips belonging to offending tribes, manned by innocent Natives? Chair.] The vessels would be kept, the men would be let go free. 7. Chairman.] Would the Natives all agree? All the Chiefs.] Yes, because theirs is the wrong. Paora.] If I see the guilty ship, I will seize it. 8. Chair.] If the District was outlawed, would the surrounding tribes assent until the powder was given up? Paora.] Ngatiwhatua do not understand Ngatipara sentiments, they must speak for themselves. Taraia.] I have no thought for the tobacco. Tell the white men to stop taking tobacco, &c, to them. It is the French (Wi Wi), English, and Americans, and all men who take tobacco, blankets, food, and trousers to Taweru ; to prevent this, you must instruct the Europeans not to go there. 9. Chair.] Would it be just to prevout innocent Natives from going there? Taraia.] Ka tika tera. Ekore an c hoki hoki, — i.e., but when the men of war anchor at Manai, be careful of my canoes and my people. Question was repeated; reply from all: It would be just. Taraia.] If they tell us to get tobacco, he, at town for them, we will not do it for them. 10. Chair.] Are there any tribes who would assist them? Taraia.] Ngatimaru. Mr. Davis explained that Ngatimaru were part of the offenders. Taraia.] If any traders go there, I will seixe their vessels and send them up to town. 11. Chairman.] Would the risk of losing their canoes frighten other tribes from assisting? Taraia.] Who knows? if white men continue to go there, do not you agree for me seizing their ships and tobacco? Chairman.] Not until you have heard from the Governor. Taraia.] Ka tika tera: I was merely asking for information. 12. Chairman.] Has anyone explained to you the law proposed to be passed? Paora.] No one has instructed us in the law. 13. Mr. Henderson bo Mr. Davis the interpreter.] Are the Natives in the habit of transferring their canoes (or vessels)? Davis.] No, —there are generally four or five owners. 14. Mr. Campbell.] Would it be possible, if friendly Natives assisted, for the outlawed Natives to bring their produce to town without being known? Paora.] They would not come, the fear would prevent them. Taraia.] I think Ngatiwhanunga and Ngatiwharua sympathise; it is the white men who buy and sell. 15. How do the tribes at Manai (Coromandel) sell their goods and produce? Taraia.] It is the white men, Europeans, who sell the goods to them and buy their produce. 16. Chairman.] If the Europeans who sell the goods to them were prevented from doing so, how then? Taraia.] Katika ; nui atute tika: stop the white men; quite right,—if you do not, it is no good. 17. Mr. Williamson.] If any Natives steal property from Europeans, and the magistrate wishes to have the offenders given up, and the chief refuses to give them up, would it be just to deprive the chief and the whole tribe from trading with Europeans and holding intercourse with any other natives? Paora.] It would not be just to punish the whole tribe for the fault of one. Punish the guilty: they should deliver him up; if they do not, they are wrong,—the whole tribe should then be punished. Taraia.] It is just. If an European commits an offence, will they who protect him be punished? Chairman.] Yes. 18. Chairman.] How many tribes are there represented here? Mr. Davis.] Three, namely—the Ngatiwhatua, the Ngapuhi, and the Ngatitamatera. 19. Chairman to Hone Ropiha of the Ngapuhi tribe.] What do you think is the opinion of the Ngapuhi on this subject? Ropiha.] There are divisions amongst them, and do not all agree. Waka would agree to this l aWj — i.e., Tamati Waka Nene. 20. Chairman.] Which would be most numerous among the Ngapuhi—those who support Waka or those who do not? Ropiha.] I do not quite know, it is not thoroughly understood. Te Keene.] We approve of the English law, except on one point. The Maories will be wrong. This is the only wrong: —if an European has done wr6ng, the Maories ask for him and do not get him. Chairman.] We punish them ourselves. Te Keene.] This is the only bad law. 21. Chairman.] Would the fear of the punishment be likely to prevent them from stealing from Europeans or from peaceable Natives? Te Keene.] They would respect this regulation. In future they would not steal; but, if they had done wrong by stealing, they might murder to make it worse. Taraia.] It is not known about this; but this is possible, that, as they had done a little wrong, they might do a great one to make it quiet. 22. Chairman.] Could this law be carried out? Te Ktene.] It could, all about here, but I do not know about distant tribes.

7