WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE. REPORTS ON THE PETITIONS OF W.T. ERSKINE AND OTHERS, C.Y. FELL AND OTHERS, AND E. PURSER AND OTHERS, RELATIVE TO THE THROWING-OPEN OF THE RAI AND ADJACENT VALLEYS IN THE INTERESTS OF SAWMILLING AND SETTLEMENT; TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND APPENDICES.

Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1898 Session I, I-05b

I.—sb

1898. NEW ZEALAND.

WASTE LANDS COMMITTEE. REPORTS ON THE PETITIONS OF W.T. ERSKINE AND OTHERS, C.Y. FELL AND OTHERS, AND E. PURSER AND OTHERS, RELATIVE TO THE THROWING-OPEN OF THE RAI AND ADJACENT VALLEYS IN THE INTERESTS OF SAWMILLING AND SETTLEMENT; TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND APPENDICES.

Beports brought up on Ist September, 1898, and ordered to be printed,

REPORTS.

No. 214, 1897.—Petition of W. T. Erskine and Others, Havelock, Marlborough. The petitioners pray that Government will purchase the Eai Valley Tramway, and open up the Eonga and Opouri Valleys for sawmilling and settlement purposes. I am directed to report that, having heard the evidence of a number of witnesses in support of the petition, the Committee are unable to recommend the Government to purchase the tramway in question from Messrs. Brownlee and Co. A copy of the evidence is attached. Ist September, 1898.

Nos. 5 and 135. —Petitions of C. Y. Fell and Others, Nelson ; and W. Pollard and Others, Awatere. The petitioners pray that the valleys of the Eai, Eonga, and Opouri may be conserved as a national park, and the timber therein preserved for all time. No. 19.—Petition of B.- Purser and Others. A counter-petition to the foregoing, wherein petitioners pray that the lands in question may be opened for sawmilling and settlement purposes. I am directed to report that the Committee are of opinion that the Government should carefully consider the best means of conserving the valuable forest lands in the valleys of the Eai, Eonga, and Opouri. A copy of the evidence is attached. Ist September, 1898.

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Tuesday, 19th July, 1898.—(Mr. E. Thompson, Chairman.) Mr. C. H. Mills, M.H.E., made a statement and was examined. Mr. G. H. Mills : As this petition is of so much importance, and so wide-reaching in its effect, I wish to bring some witnesses before the Committee who can give the members reliable information in reference to the several petitions now before them. At the same time I would point out that on the 29th September, 1895, a report which appears in,the Parliamentary Paper 1.-l contains the decision of that Committee—the report of the Public Petitions A to L Committee on the petition of the Pelorus Eoad Board and others in the County of Marlborough. There is a good deal of evidence attached to that and printed in the same paper. The report was as follows :"I am directed to report that, in the opinion of this Committee, the bush on the Crown lands in Marlborough is of such importance that the Committee recommends the Government to make further inquiries, so as to ascertain in what manner they can be worked in the interest of sawmilling and settlement to the best advantage of the district and colony." On the 17th of October a report was brought I-I. 5b-

I.—sb

2

down from the Waste Lands Committee. The petitioners prayed that the restrictions over the Crown lands might be removed so as to promote the sawmilling industry. The report was as follows: " I am directed to report that, in the opinion of this Committee, after hearing the evidence hereto attached of the Hon. J. McKenzie, the Hon. A. J. Cadman, Mr. Mills, M.H.E., and Mr. Buick, M.H.E., and carefully studying the reports therein, it has been conclusively shown that the sawmilling timber now growing on those' Crown lands in the Pelorus district is of such great value and importance to the colony, especially as a lasting factor in providing employment and assisting bond fide settlement, that we recommend the Government to take immediate steps to open up the valuable forest lands in that district in the interests of sawmilling and settlement." It has been conclusively shown that this industry is of the greatest value and importance. Since that nothing has been done by the Government beyond obtaining a report from Mr. Wilson, an engineer in the Public Works Department, which can be referred to by the Committee later on. The petition that was read first this morning was presented last year, but, unfortunately, there was no time to deal with it. Then the petition circulated by Mr. Pell and others from Nelson was started some few months since. I would venture to point out to the Committee that among those who signed it will be found a large number of people who a few years ago signed another petition praying this same block should be cut up, with others residing in Collingwood and Westland, people who have not the slightest interest beyond wishing to see a national park or something of that kind established ; and we think they should make the reserve in their own land district. I will not take up the time of the Committee very long, but I must point out that in their petition to this House there are a number of discrepancies which show conclusively that those who drew up the petition had no local knowledge of the surrounding district. They could not have any idea of the extent of land they were asking for; then they say it is about half-way between the two towns, while it is forty-eight miles from Blenheim and only twenty-eight from Nelson. Their statement also in regard to the bush is incorrect. So far as regards the preservation of the flora and fauna, the block has gone beyond that stage. Settlers have had cattle running there for the last twenty-five years, and destroyed nearly all the undergrowth. Having been through the block repeatedly, I may state that you can ride over a great part of it. It is clear open bush ; indeed, the block contains some of the finest bush land in the colony. Our objection to this being set apart for the purpose is that other portions of Crown lands in Marlborough are equally suitable for the preservation of flora and fauna which would not affect the timber industry at all. The Marlborough Land Board have done and are recommending the Government to set apart other suitable blocks or reserves. In the Orieri district we have six other reserves ; in the Pelorus district there are eight; in another we have five ; and in Linkwater two, besides others not yet surveyed. There are twenty-five reserves of various sizes which the Land Board has set apart. We propose to meet this petition from the Nelson people by recommending that they should choose blocks where the fauna and flora are intact. It is the intention of the Marlborough Land Board to make other selections higher up the valley, taking part of the Maungatapu. We can supply the want there without injuring the large sawmill industry, and without taking away the level land of the district, which will come in and is now required for closer settlement. It is a serious matter to us. I should say the Nelson people are looking at it from a purely sentimental standpoint instead of a practical one. I have always endeavoured to conserve the timber industry, and tohave it worked judiciously. lam quite certain, from my personal knowledge of the whole of that district, that if the Nelson petition were granted it will be a serious injury to the welfare of the district and its large sawmilling industry, which will ultimately have to supply the Wairau, Starborough Estate, and other lands in that locality. It will also interfere with the export trade in timber going to Canterbury. There is a very large output going in that direction. I hand in a report from the members of the Marlborough Land Board to the Surveyor-General on the subject of this tramway ; also a letter from Mr. Purser, the Mayor of Blenheim, which I will take the liberty of reading to the Committee. [Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2.] The Government has set apart over 2,000 acres in a better position than that which the petitioners asked for as a national park. I would ask the Committee to look again at the map, and see the position for themselves. 1. Mr. Wason.] Will you tell us, Mr. Mills, what would be the position if the Government did not open this forest and take this tramway over ?—lt would kill the milling industry. 2. I am referring to the Nelson petition, if that were granted?—lt would lock up 20,000 acres of this valley —first-class land; it would practically kill the industry. 3. That is the main portion of the bush in the district ?—Yes. There are some thousand acres outside that particular place with good bush, but they are inaccessible at present. 4. Mr. J. W. Thomson.] Is the industry not going on at present ? You spoke of the tramway going to it; is it not in use ?—Yes, the tramway is working now. It belongs to Mr. Brownlee, who is present, and will tell the Committee how closing this forest will affect that large industry. 5. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] How do you propose this should be dealt with ; what should be the sizes of the areas; under what law do you propose that this land should be opened for sawmilling ? —If the Government were to take over that tramway they could regulate the disposal of their bush, as I think, in the most judicious way, by letting it to sawmillers under the areas as provided by the Land Act. 6. Mr. Flatman.] On royalties ?—Yes, on royalties. Making reserves for those who erect their plant there. Under the Land Act it is provided that we can only lease 200 acres in each block ; but we can reserve 400 or 600 acres for sawmillers, who would be entitled to work it as they went along. As the heavy timber is taken away, then practically the land is open for settlement, and will be ballotted for. 7. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] There would be no competition practicable: it would fall into the hand of a monopoly ?—No; anybody who had the requisite plant might begin, say, with a mile or two more of tramway. In that case it would be open for other sawmillers if required.

3

I.—sb,

8. Mr. Wason.] In the report from Mr. Barron it says that the whole of this bush might be cut down in seven years or less : would you impress upon the Committee that is a desirable thing to happen ? —No, I should not like to see it cut down in seven years ; at the same time I disagree with his estimate as to the time it would take to cut this bush away. Ido not think there is any probability of so many sawmills going on to the place and cutting all the bush in twenty years. 9. Would you suggest that any steps should be taken for restricting the speedy destruction of all these forests; if seven years is sufficient it becomes a very serious consideration ?—I do not think for a moment there is any probability of so many sawmills going into such an extensive bush of that class and cutting away that quantity in the short space of seven years; it would simply overload the market. Mr. Gilfedder : That would depend on supply and demand. 10. Mr. Wason.] How many mills ?—lt would take five large mills over twenty years to cut this timber. 11. Mr. Flatman.] Would there be six big mills in the seven years? —Yes; and in less time if necessary. 12. Mr. J. W. Thomson.] How many are there at present?— Only one working from that locality; Mr. Brownlee is working from his freehold at present. 13. Mr. Wason.] Even suppose there was a demand, would you not propose that there should be some restriction on destroying timber on forest land and putting it into the hands of a monopoly ?—I. do not think it would be to the interest of either sawmilling or settlement to cut it all down in less than twenty years. 14. But would you put some restriction upon cutting it ?—I would certainly advise that the whole of this block should not be cut within the limited period mentioned by Mr. Barron. 15. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] It rests with the Land Board at present? ■ Mr. Wason : Not if it were to proceed at a moderate rate per year. Hon. Mr. Bolleston : As I read the Act it gives Boards power to deal with it exactly as they like. Mr. Mills: It does not come under the Land Board's jurisdiction until it is removed from under this forest reserve, as the block is under the Eorest Conservation Act. Hon. Mr. Bolleston : But if your petition is granted it will come under the Land Board to give effect to it. The Chairman : Once it comes into use for the sawmillers it comes under demand and supply, for the sawmillers will cut it down as soon as they can. Mr. Mills : Probably the Committee will take the whole of these petitions together. I thought at first you might deal with the petition for a national park; the counter-petitions, and the other one re purchasing tramway, would require more consideration. 16. Mr. Lang.] I understood Mr. Mills to say that there were certain reserves intended to be made in different parts of the district. I should like to ask what is the total area ?—Altogether ? I could not give that information. I have a letter here which is attached to these plans pointing out that a number of them are as yet unsurveyed. The place where Captain Cook landed—that is, Ship Cove, in Queen Charlotte Sound—and other places, are reserved for historic reasons. In other places there are lands reserved in areas of 50, 100, and over 2,000 acres in one block. 17. Mr. Wason.] You are speaking entirely in favour of the tramways ?—Yes ; of the Government purchasing it. 18. And not of the national park?— No. If that petition were granted it will close 20,000 acres of valuable bush land. It would shut out all our timber industry in a very little time. That is a very serious matter. 19. Are you speaking for your own petition, as against Mr. Pell's ?—Yes. The first petition presented for opening these valleys must be opposed to Mr. Pell's. I have always been in favour of reserving blocks of a rational size. But these lands should be open to all who want it for sawmilling. My son wanted some of it to settle on after the sawmilling timber had been removed, but he could not get any of it; so he had to go elsewhere, like many other young men. 20. Mr. Hogg.] There is a great deal of land fit for settlement about there ?—Yes; many thousands of acres of land, and about dead-level. The hillside is good from 1,000 ft. up to 1,500 ft. 21. Has it been surveyed ? —No ; only about 3,000 acres for one of the special settlements, in the mouth of the Opouri. When the Minister visited the district and saw the timber, he decided not to grant it as a special settlement. 22. Your idea is to have a tramway in this forest, so that the timber can be utilised ?—Yes. I am speaking as one who has had a good deal to do with sawmilling, having had a large sawmill myself, and always lived in a district where it was carried on. If I owned the Government land in that district it would be my interest as a private individual to buy the tramway to take my timber out to the best advantage. 23. The Chairman.] Is the whole of this forest land to which you propose to extend the tramway belonging to the Crown, or is any of it owned privately ?—Yes; I think the cleared farmland commences about three miles from the end of the present tramway, and is all in the Eai Valley. 24. Then, the valuable timber you spoke of is three miles from the present tramway ?—Yes, what belongs to the Crown commences that distance from the tramway. 25. So that the first three miles would be for private owners ?—Yes. Settlement has gone into a part of this land; on the right side of the river it would be about three miles to meet the Crown lands. 26. Mr. Flatman.] Is the present tramway laid on private property or on the road?— Nearly all private property; here and there it touches the road, but most of the land has been acquired from private owners. 27. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Could not the Government make it on their own land?— No.

I.—sb

4

28. But I wish first to ask you, is there any necessity for Government interfering at all ?—Yes ; it is imperative. 29. Is there any other way of making this timber valuable and opening these interesting valleys to a large number of people ?—No other way. 30. That precludes any other line ? —There is no other way of bringing the timber to the seaboard with profit. 31. The Chairman.] Is there any other way of taking the timber from other parts of the reserve ?—No, the best sites in the valley were secured for this tramway when the large companies thought they were about to purchase the forest lands as they went on with the business. 32. Do you not think it would put your case better if you were to recommend the.Government to open up this valley independently of any tramway at all ?—I do not think so ; I do not think there is any capitalist who would attempt to put another line into that valley, especially with only the right to cut over 600 acres or 800 acres, 33. Mr. Wason.] What I suggested was whether the Government could possibly put down a tramway line cheaper than buying this tramway?— That would be a matter for the Government to decide. It would be a matter of detail: in my opinion it would be impossible to put down any line at such a cost as to compete with the one that is there now and can be purchased. 34. How long has the tramway been running?—l think for about ten years. 35. Mr. J. W. Thomson.] Is it a good substantial work?— Yes. 36. Which the Minister for Eailways would approve?— Yes. 37. Is it worked with an engine or horse-power?— There is an engine, trucks, and iron rails. There is a report in the Public Works Department which gives every information, and can be had for the asking. It is a report from the engineer dealing with the whole of this phase of the tramway question, and recommending the Government to purchase it. 38. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] It comes to this: Either the Government must buy this tramway, or the whole opening of this block will be commanded practically by the tramway company ? —Yes. It amounts nearly to that. I might say for the information of the Committee that this matter of purchase and survey was under negotiation three years ago, and Mr. Brownlee then made three offers through the Land Board. He said that having heard that Government were likely to start co-operative tramways and sawmills, he would be willing to part with his interest in the sawmill and tramway. The second offer was that he would sell his tramway so that it might not be in the hands of a monopoly, but let others go into the bush and work against them. The third offer was that he would be willing to carry on the tramway himself if the Government would make some reasonable concession for the heavy expense in constructing it. 39. What is the liability to fire in this bush ?—Very little. In exceptionally dry hot weather some of it might catch fire. 40. The Chairman.] Would it not be possible for the Government to come to some arrangement with the owners by which haulage rates could be paid by other mills to carry the timber over, after extending the line through, the same as is done with the Manawatu line without purchasing; would it not be possible to make some arrangement of that kind?— Not being the owner I could not tell you. They might make an arrangement with Mr. Brownlee. I cannot answer your question. But you have not the same confidence in working over a private line you have over a line which the Government are working. There are many things that affect the question. Vessels come in for timber, and they have a certain number of " lay " days ; there might be an objection by other sawmillers to Mr. Brownlee, thinking his timber was coining into port or getting out sooner than theirs. 41. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] But there would be other subsidiary tramways before some of this block would be accessible ? —lt all depends upon the distance you put the line into the forest. 42. Mr. Wason.] How do you propose to extend it; it says in the petition "five miles"?— Towards the Opouri Valley. It is about eight miles from the junction of the Eonga Eiver with the Eai to the head of the Eonga Valley. There are two distinct valleys. 43. Mr. Flatman.] Do I understand that the Nelson petition asks for 18,600 out of the 40,000 acres ? —Yes. 44. They do not ask for a reservation of the whole 40,000 acres?— No. 45. The Chairman.] That would include the higher country ? —What they ask for is the watershed of these two valleys, containing the best of our timber and level land. 46. Mr. Wason.] He does not make it clear how much it will cost for this five miles. You say you have the Engineer's reports on the tramways ?—Yes. 47. What would it cost, roughly, to make these five miles?-—I should say about £7,000. 48. What do you say as to the question of " tithe" ; how much do you say it ought to be?— It is 6d. per hundred feet superficial; it used to be only 3d. Considering the small area of forest land in the colony, I think it is less than it should be. I have repeatedly recommended that the tithe should be increased. Everybody who knows anything of timber lands knows that whether it is 3d. or 6d. makes very little difference to the man who is building ; but it wiil make all the difference to the colony if the tithe was raised, as that would make private owners conserve their timber. We have had a number of inquiries made with reference to tithe, and what the proper amount should be. I say it should be universal over all the Crown lands throughout the colony, and not less than Is. per hundred superficial feet. That would be the best step to take. 49. Mr. Flatman.] That would depend on what it is worth ? —The Timber Conference held here last year recommended that there should be an increased tithe; then concessions would be made to those who had to lay tramways for some distance to a port or to reach a Government line. There should be a graduated charge made in those cases. 50. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] How much of the timber land is unexhausted which belongs to the owner of the existing tramway ?—I could not say ; not a great deal. 51. Then the tramway would in the course of time be useless ? —No, not useless; for it would

5

I.—sb

still serve the purpose of taking the other timber out that becomes accessible to it. Of course, there is a lot of other timber belonging to the Crown besides this in the Wakamarino and Pelorus Valleys, which will be utilised later on. 52. Mr Gilfedder.] Is there any settlement along the tramway now ? —Yes. 53. Mr. Flatman.] I would ask you to suggest how you would deal with private owners of this tramway ?—I would endeavour to purchase the line. When I mentioned to the Chairman that the tramway would have to go three miles, I should have said that there is a block of 600 acres at Blick's Estate. They would have to pay haulage on their timber just the same, therefore it would not be useless ; there is private land that it would benefit, but it would raise the price of Crown lands from £1 to £3 per acre, through providing facilities for those who are so anxious to locate on the land when the milling timber is removed. Mr. John Duncan examined. 54. The Chairman.] What are you ? —A settler. 55. Eesiding in the district referred to in this inquiry?— Yes. 56. Will you please give the Committee what information you can, in the most condensed form possible, relating to the subject under consideration ?—I do not know that I can add very much to the information given by Mr. Mills. lam not aware that I can do more, or very little more, than indorse what he has done for you. 57. Have you recognised for a long time that this matter should have been dealt with by the Government? —I am the Chairman of the Eoad Board; it affects the Board in the matter of rates. The timber industry in Marlborough does not present the same proportions that it had formerly. Some fifteen or twenty years ago it was of fairly large proportions. The annual output at that time was from twelve to fifteen million feet. As the bushes were worked out the mills, for want of accessible timber, had to leave Marlborough, and the timber industry at present is represented principally by Mr. Brownlee. I think the estimated quantity of timber in the Eai Valley in several reports, notably Mr. Wheetman's, Commissioner of Crown Lands, before the Committee is a reasonable estimate. I have long experience of timber land and sawmilling. The natural port for shipment is Havelock. Some twenty years ago my father had a desire to erect a sawmill at the Croixelles had it been possible to obtain access to the timber in the Eai Valley over the saddle—that is, between the Croixelles and this valley—but he came to the conclusion that it was unworkable. He erected his mill in one of the bays in the Sound instead. I think it is only right that the Government should make this place available for sawmills. It is owing to the neglect of the Government that the sawmilling industry has dwindled down to the small proportion that exists at present. I fully indorse the statement in the petition that the Government should have opened up and made this land available by means of a tramway. I have no interest in the tramway; it occupies, in my opinion, the best line between the ports and the timber lands. I am prepared to support the establishment of a national park in Marlborough. I think the national-park petitioners are being fairly met by the Marlborough Land Board. I understand this Board proposes to set aside reserves at Brom Eiver and in the Upper Pelorus. These places, in my opinion, are very suitable for the purpose. 58. Mr. J. W. Thomson.] You said the timber was worked out near terminus of the present tramway? —I did not wish to convey that impression, but to state that in many places where mills had been formerly they have been worked out. 59. Then there have been other mills there ? —Not in the Eai Valley ; there were twelve or fifteen about the Sounds and other valleys. 60. Then, in order to get at the milling timber now it would be necessary to extend the line? —Yes. 61. How far would it be necessary to extend the line in order to strike the line of sawmilling timber? —Three or four miles. 62. Would the extension go through private lands ? —The first extension would probably ; the existing line impinges on the main road in some places, in other places it goes through private lands. 63. Then, before the timbered lands could be opened up you would require four miles of additional tram? —I think, probably, about that. 64. Mr. Gilfedder.] You think it impracticable to take it by Croixelles Bay ? —Yes ; there is a dividing range of 800 ft., and the valley trends down from the ridge, so that to attempt working from Croixelles would be pulling up hill. In the event of this line being taken over by the Government it would also act as a railway constantly running to the block. 65. Would that bring the bush to the head of the line ?—The demand was increasing. Much of the output was sent to the Canterbury District. 66. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Would the land, when the timber is off it, be suitable for settlement ? have you been informed how the Government will treat it when the timber is off?—l think it should be taken up by the sawmillers. 67. In what sizes ?—I think from 800 to 1,000 acres. 68. How many mills would be brought into co-operation ? —Much would depend on the sizes of the mills. Some years ago it was considered a fair output if they cut a million and a half feet of timber; but Mr. Brownlee's mill is now cutting four millions and a half. 69. Mr. Gilfedder : That is 14,000 ft. a day. 70. Mr. Hogg.] You say this could only be divided into pieces of 800 or 1,000 acres : do you think that would be the best subdivision ?—Certainly not less for sawmilling areas. 71. Would that land be useful for dairy-farms?— After removal of the timber by sawmillers it would be suitable for dairy-farms; indeed, I think that would be the best way of dealing with it. 72. Are there any difficulties in regard to the extension of the tramway ?—None now; there were heavy cuttings.

6

I.—sb

73. Do you think a great deal of it would be suitable for agricultural settlement ?—For dairyfarms it would be very suitable. 74. Mr. Wason.] Do you think it would be a good thing for the district you represent here if this forest were destroyed in a short number of years ?—I do not look upon taking the timber off by sawmills as destruction. It might, but it is scarcely possible to be gathered in the course of seven years. Ido not look upon the cutting as destruction ; but it might be so arranged to get it cut in fifteen or more years. 75. Would it not be better for the community if this forest were not destroyed in that short time ?—I should not consider it an evil, for it would be felled and sold, and the land would be at once taken up by settlers for pastoral and dairy farms. Looking at it from that point of view, it might be an advantage to have it cut in seven years. But you would never see it again when it is once cut. It is different with grain. 76. Mr. Flatman.] You say it is cut off and disposed of as sawn timber, would not that feed the line of tramway ?—Yes. 77. Mr. Mills.] You have known the district for many years?— Yes. 78. What has been the effect of sawmilling in the district ?—Settlement has followed, and improvements have been more quickly carried out wherever they have been judiciously applied. 79. You know Kaituna?—Yes. 80. Is that district closely settled ?—Yes. 81. When you were being questioned by the Hon. Mr. Bolleston it was said that the allotments would be 200 acres :do you think that would meet the position. I think the sections at that would be rather small, probably, but I think they would do. 82. What is your opinion about increasing the tithe on all timber ?—I think it would be the right thing if Government would make it one tithe for the whole colony. 83. Do you know what 12,000 ft. a day would represent ?—About £1,000 a year probably. 84. Then, three sawmills like Brownlee's would mean £3,000 a year ?—Yes. 85. Towards the purchase and maintaining the tram ?—Yes. 86. The Chairman.] You say the present mill is cutting over 4,000,000 ft. of timber a year? —Yes. 87. How much longer will it take to cut out the whole of the timber that belongs to the present proprietor?—l do not know; Ido not know the full extent of his property.

Wednesday, 20th July, 1898. Mr. Erskine, Clerk of the Havelock Town Board, made a statement, and was examined. Mr. Erskine : I have, besides my present occupation, also been Clerk to the Pelorus Board for ten years, and I have acted for the Government as valuer for the whole district; so that lam perfectly well acquainted with the whole locality and the people in it. Why the Havelock Town Board asked me to come here to-day is to speak as regards the park. They object to that on two grounds—first, because it will mean a complete stagnation to the progress of the whole district; and, in the second place, they consider there are better places in the district, and much more suitable for the site of a park. As regards the people at the northern end of the Pelorus Sound, they object to the park, because the roads to open out Nydia Bay, Tuna Bay, Eitzroy Bay, French Pass, &c, must all pass through this land, and if placed, as a reserve the roads will be stopped; but I contend the settlers must have some outlet. As regards the main object of our petition—and I have sent in three now—the matter with us is a question between progress and stagnation. What we want the Committee to recommend, if they can see their way to, is the purchase of the tramway. Nothing else will have any avail whatever. This tramway is a complete monopoly. The residents of the district have no way else by which they can have access. The result is that the population is decreasing. Every month nearly people have to leave because there is no work for them. I was connected with four mills in the Kaituna district. All the timber is cut out of that district now, and people have to go away because they were not allowed to open up mills in the Pelorus and the Eai Valleys. I think there would be at least five more mills established there directly the land was opened for sawmilling. Why we push it is because the purchase of the tramway is the only remedy. There is no other way. The whole of the available flat land is taken up. All this time the land is closed. Why, all along this area we did not get for years sufficient income over all the fourteen miles to put so much as a culvert in the road. Therefore, we have had to everlastingly come to the Government for money to keep this front road opened. If this land were thrown open for sawmilling there would be sufficient people settling in the district and sufficient revenue to prevent all that. The way we want this land to be taken up would mean settlement would go hand-in-hand with sawmilling. Intending settlers would apply to the Land Board directly the timber had been sold. Of course, we expected the Land Board would put all this timber up to auction, and the biggest offer take it. After that we would go to the Land Board and ask them to sell the land. They put the land up and sell it to the highest bidder, or it is balloted for in the usual way. Then those who are working in the mill would all go in for a section, and one of them get it. As fast as the timber is cleared off this man underscrubs the land; so that within a week or two after the mill has cleared that particular block the fire goes through and grass is sown. It would save considerably over £1 an acre, so that money is saved and added to the value of the land. But I would like to show you what this road goes through. Eather more than six years ago I went to value a section of land in the middle of the Eai, about half-way between the two bridges. I left the main road, got on to a log, and I walked right through to the end of the 50-acre paddock and back again and I never touched ground—never walked on the ground at all. This was after it had been

7

I.—sb

cleared, and was supposed to be under grass. Later on I went over it again, as they wanted to borrow money on it, supposing the land would carry two sheep to the acre if properly cleared. It would not carry more than one sheep now. Now, I positively assure you there is not a settler between the Pelorus Bridge and the Eai Saddle —and some have been there twenty-five years— that is making a living on the land ; they cannot make a living. The only man who is getting on at all is one who bought several thousand acres, and he is only making 2 per cent. That is not the kind of land that ordinary settlers can take up. According to the last valuation the district had increased over £70,000 as compared with the three years before. But that is almost entirely in the Kaituna subdivision, where mills have already been through. Four mills have been working there several years, and have worked all the timber out. Settlers immediately followed, and there is great improvement in the land. In the Pelorus Sound, during the last ten years, the people have increased ten times. The reason is that mills have been there wherever there has been any millable timber, and there is no heavy timber left for the settlers to fell, so that they can quickly put, at all events, a large proportion of it in grass. But in the Eai and Wakamarina, where most of the best land is situated, the timber is too heavy. £10 per acre will not clear the land as in the smaller timbered land £1 will do. The timber will lie there for many months, and very little grass can be put on although the fallen logs are continually being burnt. The timber absorbs the moisture and lies there, and will lie there until we can get a breed of sheep that will feed on logs. Progress might then be reported. In this heavy country, even when the mill has been through, you cannot get much more than three-fourths of it cleared. If it is a 100-acre section you cannot reckon on more than 75 acres of that in grass, for the first eight or nine years at all events. That is if the mill has been through ; and, if the mill does not go through, there is not one-fourth of it can be laid down in grass. I would remind the Committee that "every Commissioner of Crown Lands who has been over it has recommended that this tramway should be bought—that the timber there will more than pay for the purchase of the tramway and the expenses of working ; members of the Land Board have paid different visits to this land, and have strongly recommended it; it has come before two Committees here, who have strongly recommended that this tramway should be bought and the timber thrown open; and therefore I ask you this time, if you can possibly see your way, to recommend the Government that these petitions be acceded to and that the tramway should be bought. As regards the cost, the tithe now is put down at 6d. per hundred, but the Land Board has already recommended that as timber is going up these tithes should be increased. Supposing the tithe is increased, and then the timber is put up to auction or left open to tenders, that would be the drawing in of a much larger revenue than would pay for the tramway. Haulage over the tramway would pay for the current expenses; the tithes would pay for the purchase of it, and leave a very considerable margin. With Messrs. Brownlee's mill cutting over 4,000,000 ft. of timber a year, I estimate that there would be altogether 11,000,000 ft. of timber cut in a year. I make this estimate by taking the cutting of the four mills with which I was connected in the Kaituna Valley. Then, subsidiary tramways would be made by mills purchasing the timber, and I think a number of smaller mills would go up, because there would not be such a large length of subsidiary tramways to be laid. But all the mills make their own tramways to a considerable point. There would be 11,000,000 ft. of timber, I estimate, cut, taking these mills as a basis, and that would mean about £20,000 would be circulated, and it would be to the advantage of the whole colony. There are about fifty men employed now; I reckon there would be a hundred and seventy-five working under the new conditions. The haulage I estimate would come to £10,000 a year—that is, haulage of the timber down ; and that amount would far more than pay the whole of the working-expenses of the tramway. The amount of timber we estimate would be cut would be 800,000,000 ft. That would bring in about £200,000 before the timber was cut out. That is the Commissioner of Crown Lands' estimate, and he told me himself if he made any error in his calculation he erred on the point of being below the mark. He was quite certain in all his estimates that the amount actually produced would exceed them. The income from tithes, put at 6d., would be £10,000 a year. You can see that this amount coming in would more than pay the whole of the working-expenses and leave a considerable profit from the timber. I estimated at the time that if the whole of this timber were burnt now and the land put in the hands of new settlers you would have put away at once in smoke an amount of timber equal in value to twenty-five years' production by these settlers. That, I think, should be avoided. 88. Mr. J. W. Thomson.] You say, then, mills would be put into this locality if the tramway were made ?—I am as sure of it as I can be about anything, humanly speaking. I know as a fact that persons have been to me and tried to arrange for three mills, and, with the one now existing, that would be four. lam sure there would be four. 89. With four mills, how long would the timber last ?—Seventy-five years. ; 90. Seventy-five years before it could be cut out ?—Yes; but that is not if they all cut as much as Brownlee's does. 91. The Chairman.] How many years would it take four mills such as Mr. Brownlee's to cut out the whole of the timber?—l think it would take fifty years. 92. Mr. Mills.] I think you made a mistake just now in some figures you gave to the Committee. You said some 800,000,000 ft., I think. What were you referring to?—To the timber. 93. How long have you been in Havelock ?—About eighteen or nineteen years. 94. When you first came to Havelock was there any talk of the tramway being laid down by the Government, or was it started by the company ?—lt was started by the company just at the time I came. An agitation was on as to why the Government could not carry it through. 95. And when you stated that four large sawmills could not cut it out for so many years did you include the Wakamarina and other timbers?—l included all the timbers in the district that the tramway would be used for.

L— 5b

8

96. And would this tramway serve the purpose of taking all the timber from the Wakamarina and up the Pelorus Valley later on ?—Yes; that is the main reason why we are advocating the tramway purchase. The Wakamarina has considerably better agricultural land than any part of the Eai Valley. It will carry three or four sheep to the acre, will the greater portion of the Wakamarina, and we want that opened out. There was one other point I omitted—that the tramway would be the nucleus in connection with the railway between Nelson and Blenheim. The West Coast Eailway will join it, and Picton, I think, will become the central port of the South Island. 97. What difference in value would the Crown lands be if that were a public tramway compared with what they are valued at at present ?—I should think nearly double value. 98. Double the value ? —Yes; because the tramway would offer communication. 99. What do you estimate the value now of land generally up there ? —lt varies very much in quality. I have valued some at ss. an acre and some at £2 10s. 100. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] I want to know what is the idea of the plan that should be adopted by the Government in order to secure other mills along this tramway. On what principle is the forest to be disposed of to the several mill-owners ?—l.would suggest that the land should be let out in so many acre blocks—from 50 to 200 acres—and then put up to auction, the tithes being fixed at so much. 101. Is that the principle that has been adopted hitherto ? The Chairman.] That is the principle in Auckland. 102. Mr. Duncan.] Would Brownlee, the chief mill-owner, purchase the other timber ? —lt would be better for the men to go and do the work themselves than to do the work for others. 103. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] How many years' timber is there still accessible to Mr. Brownlee's tramway on his private land?—l can hardly tell, but I should think about two years. 104. Do you know Mr. Wilson, the engineer who reported on this?—No; I have not seen his report. I have met him once. I wish to point out to the Committee that there were fifty years of timber waiting. If what Mr. Wilson says is correct, as to the time it would take Mr. Brownlee to cut the timber off his freehold land, then there must be very much more timber on the Crown land than I have estimated. 105. Mr. Wason.] Did we understand you to say that five mills such as Mr. Brownlee's would take fifty years to cut out the whole timber?— Four mills, I said. 106. Mr. Barron, of the Lands and Survey Department, reports of this timber that Mr. Brownlee's mill would cut it out in forty-two years—that is, one mill ? —I do not know on what grounds he bases his opinion. lam quite willing to risk mine against any one else. Mr. Flatman : Is not that dealing with the block of 42,000 acres? The Chairman: I presume it is dealing with the valleys. 107. Mr. Wason.] In what sense is this tramway a monopoly? Mr. Brownlee does not carry any timber of any one else on it, I suppose ? —Oh, no; he will not carry for any one else. In reference to the amount of timber, I can only say that up the Wakamarina there is far more timber than there was in that part of the Kaituna where there have been mills cutting before I came to the colony, and up to the present time. 108. Mr. Flatman.] You were speaking of your own section being full of logs. Was the milling timber taken out of that, or was the bush simply felled ? Did any mill go through it, or was it felled in the usual way ?—Oh, no; no mill went through it. 109. The Chairman.] Have you any expert knowledge of timber ?—I have had to do with the financial management of four mills—that is, I went through all the accounts and saw that the prices were right and engaged to sell the timber. 110. But have you ever been engaged in estimating growing timber?—Oh, yes; I have done so with regard to these four mills. As a rule the timber in that district was paid by tithes on the quarter-girth measurement; but I have had to estimate how much timber was on a block, and the sawmiller has bought it accordingly. 111. On what principle do you work out the supposed quantity per acre?—By the number of trees, their height free of branch, and the average girth of these trees. 112. You stated some time ago, in case this timber was thrown open, that the timber could be sold to one man and the land to another, and sawmilling and settlement could go on at the same time. Is that your opinion as a settler?— Yes, in this particular place; and the man who has bought the land would be the man who was working the mill. These men, say, come and they take this mill, and they want to settle down. They all put in for land, and as fast as they are clearing with the mill they get it ready to burn. Of course, they cannot grass it until after it is burned. If the land is left some time without being touched after the mill goes through it, it gets overgrown with scrub and fire will not go through. 113. Yes, but the person who buys the timber from the Land Board is allowed so many years to get the timber out ?—Oh, yes; but the purchaser of the land cannot take possession of it until the timber is removed. 114. You say you have been acting as Government valuer in that district. Will you tell the Committee what is the present taxable value of this tramway ?—We put it down at £24,000 — taxable value for twelve miles. 115. The Committee wish to understand distinctly if that is the taxable value of the tramway ? —That is what I valued it at for land-tax purposes. I have valued it three times now, pretty well I think. I have put it down, taking a rough average, at £2,000 per mile. That is under the cost a little, but that is the present value, so far as I am aware. 116. Is it ballasted the same as a railway ?—Yes, 117. With shingle ?—Yes.

9

I.—sb

Mr. Brownlee made a statement, and was examined. Mr. Brownlee (representing Messrs. Brownlee and Co., the owners of the tramway): Shortly after the Government failed to go on with the Eai Valley Tramway, in 1878, a limited liability company of sawmillers, called " The Pelorus Sawmilling Company," was formed for that purpose. It was well known that the great bulk of the timber lay in the Eonga and Opouri Valleys, and only for the fact that those well-timbered valleys existed, such an expensive tramway would never have been constructed at all. The 12-J miles that we have constructed has cost about £25,000. At that time the highest price of Crown bush land in the district was £1 per acre, at which price it would ultimately have paid the company well. But the company was no sooner formed than the Government raised the price to £3 an acre; and one of the best blocks of well-timbered land (of 600 acres) about 14J miles from the port, was secured at that price by a private party. In a few years more the Government shut up the greater part of the valley as a forest reserve. What remained outside the reserve was reduced to £1 an acre and opened for settlement about ten. years since. The Pelorus Sawmilling Company, after expending all their capital and running deeply into debt, had to go into liquidation about 1882. The property fell into our hands shortly afterwards, and the first thing we had to face was a five years' lawsuit to establish our right of way, and, although we were successful, our capital was lying idle all that time, and we did not get a proper start of the mill until 1888. During the ten years we have been at work the mill has turned out about 25,000,000 ft. of timber, and we have cut over about 4,000 acres of bush land, thus showing it was very thinly timbered, and not worth laying a tramway to, except to tap the Eai Valley timber. Our mill only turned out about 2,000,000 ft. per annum until the last few years, when we increased the annual output to about 4,000,000 ft. We are now working our last block of land, which may last us about eleven or twelve months. Not only have we had no interest for our money, but we are a long way off' having the return of our capital. To work the whole of the Opouri Valley the tramway would have to be continued about another thirteen miles, which we calculate would cost about £20,000. If the Government owned the line, any branches required would be put down by the mills cutting on the land. I may say that it costs us— i.e., supposing 10,000 ft. to the acre—about £6 an acre to remove the mill timber, thus showing the great importance of removing the mill timber previous to the settler occupying the land. We pay our men Is. per hundred for putting it on the skids, and then we supply horses, feed, gear, and all up-keep as well. If we could get the bush land at £1 an acre, as we used to, we could go ahead very well, and it would pay us very well. But that is all in Government's hands, and we are almost at a standstill. 118. The Chairman.] By £1 an acre you mean £1 an acre for the timber?—No; we used to buy it at £1 an acre, land and all, till the Government shut it up. 119. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] When did the Government shut it up ?—I think it is about fifteen years ago. 120. Mr. Gilfedder.] You estimate that the yielding capacity of the land is about 10,000 superficial feet per acre? —No; what we cut over did not nearly cut that. We only got 25,000,000 ft. off it; but we estimate that the Eonga and Opouri Valleys would average not less than 15,000 ft. to the acre. But at 10,000 ft. to the acre it would cost £6 an acre to remove the timber from the land. But, even putting it at an estimate of 15,000 ft.—which it will not yield, for the best land in the South yields but 12,000 ft.—that will only give us 15,000,000 ft. 121. The previous witness says that it would take about fifty years for four mills like yours to cut it out. What does your mill cut? —About 4,000,000 ft. per annum. 122. That is, about 16,000,000 ft. for the four ? —lf they—the Wakamarina and Upper Pelorus Valleys—are anything like the Opouri and Eonga Valleys, they would; but I do not think they contain so much timber, unless birch be included. 123. What about the demand for timber there; is it increasing ? —We are kept generally very busy. 124. Where is the timber sent to ?—I dare say about one-fourth of it will go to the Wairau and Picton, and three-fourths, perhaps, to Christchurch. 125. Do you think, in the event of it being thrown open, there is a probability of the other three mills being started ?—I think they would be only too glad to get the chance. 126. What is about the price of it ?—The price of it is about ss. or 6s. at the mill. 127. How much further would the tramway have to be taken to the Opouri Valley?— About one mile extension would reach Crown lands, and four miles to the mouth of the Opouri. 128. There is no other road by which the timber could be got out of these two valleys unless by the route of the tramway ?—I do not think there is a possibility of getting it out by any other way, and the first six miles has cost far more than the rest. 129. Do you think you will be able to compete in the Christchurch market in the event of the royalty being raised?— Yes, if it is raised all over the colony. 130. Do you suggest that it should be raised to 9d. ?—Yes, or to whatever the Government may choose, so long as the royalty is the same over all Crown lands, and sufficient to enable them to grant concessions for long private tramways. Unless the royalty were raised uniformly all over the colony, and a concession on the royalty given to us, we certainly could not compete in the open market. 131. Mr. J. W. Thomson.] You say the land is thinly timbered. Is that the land you have been recently operating upon ?—What we have gone over was thinly timbered. 132. What you have not gone over, is that better timbered ?—I have had two men examining the Opouri Valley, and their estimate was 15,000 ft. to the acre on the flat land ; but the good timber does not go very far up the hill. 133. You said you do not consider this a good valley?—No ; I mean the 4,000 acres we have gone over. 2—l, sb.

I.—sb

10

134. The rest is better than that ?—Oh, yes, very much. 135. If the Government were to buy the line, and. the four mills were to be started, would it not be you that would do that?— Certainly. I would not care about opposition if I could help it. I could increase the machinery to any amount, but could not prevent any one else starting a mill. 136. Supposing the Government were not to purchase the tramway, would you be ready to extend your operations in the forest ?—Well, I might increase them a little. It would all depend upon what I should have to pay for the bush land. Of course, the quicker we could cut it the jetter it would be for us. 137. That was, generally, what I wished to bring out. The question is as to whether it would pay the Government to buy the line ; and, if it would pay the Government, we presume that, as you have got your place there already, and have got a good start and a going concern, whether you could go into it to a greater extent ?—Oh, yes, it would pay us very well if we got the land as freehold at £1 an acre. We should be only too glad. 138. In the event of the Government buying the line, you would be entitled yourselves to do that ? —Yes. We applied for a concession on the royalty for that long tramway, as it would mean a cost of about £45,000 before we are finished. 139. That is a lot of money, of course, for a private firm ?—Yes ; but the Government would have all the advantage if they owned the line. They would get more than double the price for the land. After being cleared they could sell it at from £2 to £3 an acre to settlers. 140. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] What access would it have ? Would it have to be roaded to get to it ?—There is a public road nearly to the mouth of the Opouri Valley. 141. You also made a remark about it not paying you interest ?—I said it had not returned even the interest on the principal by a long way. Of course, our object when we started the tramway was to get into these valleys. We knew the timber was there. 142. Then, the Government could not get any return for its capital unless there was the certainty of more mills being started in the district ? —Of course ; but it would pay the Government well with more mills, and it is a certainty more mills would be erected. 143. But do you think four or five mills would be almost sure to be started in the forest if the Government were to buy the tramway ?—lf no one else started, we ourselves would increase our plant. In fact, we would rather form our business into a big company, so that we could clear off the sawmilling timber as quickly as desired by the Government for settlement. 144. If it would pay you, you might do it now? —Certainly, we would do it if we had the opportunity. 145. Do you mean, by " the opportunity," the Government purchasing the tramway?— Yes, or by granting us a reasonable concession on the royalty for extending and working such a long line. 146. Mr. Mills.] In estimating the timber that you referred to, you do not calculate the birch at all ?—No, we never put anything upon birch ; it is generally very faulty. 147. Could you get many orders for birch if you were cutting it ?—Any quantity of orders. 148. And there is a very large quantity of birch in the district independent of other timbers?— Oh, yes. Besides, the hills are principally birch. 149. Would four mills like yours even look at the timber in the time mentioned?— How long? 150. Fifty years ? —Well, of course, I do not know anything about the Wakamarina and the Upper Pelorus. I do not know about the quantity, and I would not like to say how long it would take on that account. 151. Do you think cutting birch would add a considerable number of years to the cutting?— Certainly, if the birch were good enough for that purpose. There are blocks of very good birch here and there, but in places it is rather faulty for getting long lengths. 152. There are no sawmills cutting the birch there now ?—None that I am aware of. 153. Eeference has been made in the petition from Nelson to Kaituna land. Could you tell the Committee what is the difference in price for land in Kaituna now, as compared with when the mill started ? —lt was £1 per acre then. 154. What is about the average price for land in Kaituna now ?—I should say from £4 to £10 an acre. That is, for land that has been grassed and fenced. 155. And if this tramway was a permanent tramway do you think the land in the Opouri and Eai would bring £3 an acre ? —lt would bring from £2 to £3 easily. We have sold several large blocks at from £2 to £6 per acre. In fact, our land is the only thing we have made anything out of. 156. Then, the average price would be £4 ?—There was one block at £6. The greater part we sold at £2 an acre, and some at £3. 157. Since you have been there in the Pelorus, do you know of many people ever visiting the Eonga and Opouri Valleys ?—Very few stop to visit it that lam aware of. It is a close bush, and you cannot see a couple of chains ahead. You cannot see it from the public road. 158. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] When you bought out the company you speak of, was the tramway constructed, or what part of it ?—Only about three miles. 159. You reckon the value at about £2,000 a mile ?—Yes, but the lower part, I believe, would cost double that. The company expended about £8,000 in wages alone, and put up the mill and constructed about three miles of tramway. Altogether they spent over £37,000. 160. Have you spent more money on it since ?—Yes, we have made nine miles and a half of it since. 161. In reconstructing, I mean ? —Only in places, with sleepers. 162. Has the line been ballasted ?—Ballasted only in soft places. 163. Mr. Wilson said three years ago that the smaller bridges were going fast ?—I do not think there was anything much wrong with the bridges. The piles may be a little sapped on the outside, but they have got a good heart in them,

11

I.—sb

164. Mr. Wason.] How much had your company to start with?— About 4,000 acres. 165. And how much have you now ? —We have sold perhaps about 2,500 acres. 166. You said you were now cutting your last block. Of what extent is that?— Between 600 and 700 acres. 167. And you estimate that to last about eleven months?— About twelve months. We estimated about 4,000,000 ft. in it when we started six weeks since. 168. And what position will your company be in at the end of twelve months ? If you do not extend your tramway at the end of twelve months, will the company have to close ? —We have nothing but a very small section ; we have got about 50 acres. That is all we have left, and there is this private block, where they are asking £6 an acre for about 600 acres. 169. Unless the tramway is extended, what is there now would be practically valueless?— That is so ; it will be like the Government timber. It is worth nothing without the tramway, and our tramway is worth nothing without the timber. 170. Mr. Flatman.] You have been speaking of the birch timber. Is it of any value ? Is it white, or black, or what ? —Mostly brown-birch. On the hills I think they say it is a sort of red birch. It would make very good sleepers for railways, but it is difficult to get long lengths out of it, and that is what is wanted for bridges. It is long enough; but in some places it is so faulty that you would have to cut it into short lengths. 171. The bush you have cut, I understand, has averaged about 10,000 ft. to the acre ?—I said over about 4,000 acres we had cut about 25,000,000. 172. That would be saying that these 45,000 acres would turn out about 200,000,000 ft. of timber ?—Yes, and considerably more, if it is all like the Opouri and Eonga. I would not be a bit surprised if it turned out that Mr. Erskine's estimate was nearly correct. 173. Did I not understand that you had some Opouri timber estimated, and the estimate you got was about 15,000 ft. to the acre?— Yes. Well, there must be more than that to make 200,000,000 ft. on 45,000 acres. The lowest estimate I have heard given for the Eai Valley is 130,000,000 ft. That of the Opouri we calculate at about 15,000 ft. per acre, and about 5,000 acres. That would be 75,000,000 ft., and the Eonga about 50,000,000 ft. 174. You say other saw-millers would be glad to start if they had the opportunity?— Yes, because they are getting cut out in many parts of the colony. We never expected to do a good business until we got to the two valleys. We never expected even to get our capital back until we got to these valleys. We expected to get them at £1 an acre, and calculated accordingly. 175. How is it that you are now advocating raising the royalties? —As a question of national policy, as timber is getting scarcer, and it would enable the Government to give a concession. They could not give that at 3d. or 6d. royalty. 176. That is, a concession on the royalty of the timber?— Yes. 177. Would your tramway serve to remove the timber in the Upper Pelorus from the haulage point of view ?—Yes, it is about ten miles up the Pelorus now, and serves both Pelorus and Eai Valleys for that distance; but to continue up the Upper Pelorus, of course, the tramway would have to be extended in that direction. 178. I understand your estimate of the land, when the native timber is on it and it is in its native state, is £1 an acre ?—Yes, that is what it was selling at when we started the tramway. 179. And is it now less than £3 ?—We have sold our land at not less than £2 and as much as £6, after removing the mill timber. 180. Then you would not mind telling the Committee what is the profit of the timber ?—Well, I could not go into that very accurately. 181. What is the timber worth at the harbour? —We are selling rimu at 6s. 182. What would it estimate all through—totara and everything ?—lt might average 75., not more. Mr. Mills : Might I correct Mr. Flatman ? He misunderstood the quantity of timber. If he calculates he will find that 40,000 acres with 15,000 ft. to the acre is 600,000,000 ft.—if it will average 15,000 ft. to the acre. 183. The Chairman (to witness).] We now gather from your evidence that in about twelve months more your timber will be all cut out, and your position will be that you will have an expensive tramway and sawmill on your hands, with no work?— Yes. 184. Supposing the Government took the reserve off the timber up the Eai Valley, and offered it to your company at a tithe of 6d. per 100 ft., would your company be in a position to extend their operations, and carry on milling operations ?—No, we could not do that. 185. If your company could not work the timber privately at a royalty of 6d. per hundred, how do you expect other mill-owners could do it ?—They could not lay down a tram like ours into it—• not a long tramway—and compete with other mills in other parts of the colony where the timber is more accessible. 186. Then, it has been suggested that if this tramway was extended up the valley there would be at least three other mills, such as your mill, erected. Do you think, from your knowledge of the timber trade, that there would be a demand for the output of four large mills, such as yours is ?—Perhaps not, in addition to the present mills; but, as I said before, as mills get cut out in other places they would be only too glad to get the chance. 187. Then, the Committee is to understand distinctly that, in your opinion, it would not pay your company to extend this tramway and work the bush ; you could not make it profitable ?—No, we could not pay the usual royalty and make a profit. 188. Do you consider 6d. a hundred is a fair royalty?—lt used to be in old days the regular royalty all over our district; but, for reasons given previously, it ought to be increased over all Crown lands.

12

L—sb

189. If it would not pay your company to work the bushes at 6d. per hundred royalty, why have you suggested that the royalty should be increased to the other millowners who were likely to come in with the extension of the tramway ?—We are prepared to pay the same royalty as others if the Government take over our line; but if we have to extend it at our own expense, we could not do so without a concession in royalty, and the same concession would apply to all other mills in a similar position. 190. That would be to raise the royalties all over the Island ?—Yes, all over the South Island, and the North Island too. 191. Then, the reason you suggest the Government should buy your tramway is that in another year you will have no use for it ? —The purchase of the tramway was the suggestion of the petitioners ; what we ask for is a concession in the royalty, or the Government to sell us the bushland at the usual price of £1 per acre, which we would much prefer ; although we are prepared to sell our tramway to the Government, and thus to disabuse the public mind that we wish to secure any monopoly. Mr. Graham, M.H.E., made a statement, and was examined. Mr. Graham: The petition, which clearly explains its object, is one that has been, as the Committee is aware, very largely and influentially signed by the inhabitants of Nelson City and the surrounding district, and also by a considerable number of the people of Marlborough. I may explain that the object or reason for getting up this petition was consequent upon one which was sent in the interest of the sawmillers and the inhabitants of the Marlborough district for the reserve to be taken off a certain area of forests in the Wakamarina, Pelorus, and Eai Valleys, which were represented as containing a very large amount of valuable sawmilling timber, which it was requested should be made available for sawmilling purposes. The area referred to is at present under " The Forest Eeserves Act, 1885," I believe. The people of Nelson thought it most undesirable that the whole of these valuable forests should be entirely destroyed, and that we should have nothing left of the beautiful New Zealand scenery in the course of a generation or two, and that this natural home for birds and animals should be entirely destroyed. They therefore took action, not with a view of being jealous in the matter, but with the thought of permanently preserving a portion—a comparatively small portion—of these forest reserves. The area of these two valleys compared with the whole of the reserves is very small. It is only fair, however, to state that a number of persons professing a thorough acquaintance with the whole district are of opinion that, although these two valleys comprise but a small portion of the total reserves, they represent the very best, both in quality and quantity, of the total area of timber. Instead of there being by comparison a large portion of timber in the other parts of the reserve, these two valleys, they assert, contain five-sixths, or more, perhaps, of the total quantity of timber. They contend that if these were reserved entirely for scenery purposes in a very few years the whole of the remaining timber would be cut out. For instance, it was represented to me that in these two valleys alone there would be at least twenty-five or thirty years' cutting at the present rate, but if. these were excluded all the rest of the timber together would probably last only six or seven years. It is only fair to state that. At the same time, the people of Nelson are very desirous that the timber should not be thoughtlessly and carelessly destroyed, and they are very anxious that these valleys should be preserved for all time as an example of the best description of New Zealand forest that exists in the colony. And in that I know they are correct, because I have travelled over New Zealand, both north and south, and have never anywhere seen anything superior, if, indeed, equal, to in these valleys. I do not know whether any of the people of Nelson who are taking active interest in this matter would like to come before this Committee and give evidence in view of the fact that witnesses are being examined, but I should certainly like to ask the Committee to give me the opportunity of affording them the privilege should they think it necessary. That would be fair to the inhabitants of Nelson who take an interest in this matter, as they only desire what is absolutely right. They realise that it is very desirable to have these forests preserved, but they also realise the possibility of reasons why you cannot have all your cake and eat it too; but if it should prove impossible to preserve both they confidently rely upon having at least one of these beautiful valleys preserved from destruction for the benefit of posterity. 192. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Have you seen these two particular valleys ?—I have been to the head of both valleys in company with residents who know the country, and they pointed out to me the beauties of the country. There is no doubt of its magnificence. I never saw anything like it. 193. Mr. Wason.] What, in your opinion, would be the effect of the climate in this district after the cutting-down of this forest ?—The timber that would be utilised for sawmilling purposes does not extend to the top of the ranges ;it is chiefly confined to the lower parts. The totara, red-pine, rimu, and other useful timbers are near the bottom. Further up are the commoner woods, such as birch, and they would probably not be cut down for milling purposes ; therefore, unless destroyed by fire, they would not be interfered with. 194. You think the cutting-down of these particular 40,000 acres would not materially injure the climate ?—I do not think it would. 195. 40,000 acres? —Not nearly so much as that, I think. The Chairman : It is stated to be 18,600 acres in the report. Mr. Flatman : That is what is being asked for reservation. Mr. Graham: I pointed out, what had been represented to me, that, instead of these two valleys containing a minor portion of the whole reserve, they contained a major part. The Committee has said that, if that were absolutely the case, and it was shown that it would be for the benefit of the colony that both valleys could not be preserved for all time, it might be arranged that

13

I.— 5b

the smaller valley should be preserved. The Opouri contains a very much greater area than the Eonga, but the latter contains equally valuable and beautiful forest. From my own knowledge, I know that the forest there is such as is not to be seen elsewhere. 196. Mr. Hogg.] . What is the soil like ?—The soil is said to be fertile, but many people who profess to know are of opinion that if the timber were cleared the best land in the valleys would very soon be washed away by the torrents that would be more free to come down. 197. Mr. Mills.'] Is there any young timber in it?—Oh, yes ; there is young timber coming on all the time. 198. Mr. Hogg.] . I was going to suggest, would it not be sufficient if you simply reserved the hills, where the soil is inferior and the timber also ?—The timber is very much inferior. The desire is to preserve the beauty of the whole as a perfect specimen of the forestry of New Zealand as far as quality goes, and as a resting-place for the flora and fauna of the colony. 199. Mr. Flatman.] Is it white- or black-birch in that locality?—l think it is brown-birch, but I am no authority as to the particular kind of birch. 200. Mr. Hogg.] But for the benefit of tourists and visitors would it not be advantageous that the valleys should be cleared, so that they could benefit the country more easily?—l do not think it would be any advantage to clear them—certainly not for the purpose for which they are required to be preserved; the two valleys are off the main coach-road, about a mile or so, and not within view of it. 201. Then, it is a somewhat difficult thing to get through these valleys?—Oh, no, there is no difficulty about it at all. You can get into either the Eonga or Opouri in a few minutes, and it is a beautiful and enjoyable walk. 202. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] Is there access to these valleys other than that that exists through the tramways ? —Oh, yes; there is a road in to the only settler there—Turner—and you can walk up either valley right to the head of it. 203. Mr. Hogg.] Is it not densely wooded with underscrub there ? —No, it is not. I understand you to refer to the valleys where the best timber is. 204. Mr. Flatman.] It says the block of land referred to in the petition is close to and accessible from the main coach-road ?—Yes, so it is, but, still, it is not visible from the main coachroad. 205. Mr. Wason.] You remarked that you feared the valleys would be cut up by floods if the bush was cleared. How do you reconcile that with the previous statement about the climatic conditions not being altered ?—I understood by that question that you meant the effect of the bush being there for the purpose of drawing rain. If you meant to include the scouring-out of the valleys, I think, and have said, that would be detrimental. lam not giving my own opinion only; lam giving also the opinion of those who accompanied me when I went over. The small portion that has been cleared has been very much cut about. I asked them if there would be the same result up the valleys if they were cleared, and they said it was very liable to be the case. These are the opinions of people who had experience there. If the place were cleared and naked the rain would came down with a rush in torrents. 206. Mr. Mills.] In looking through that petition have you noticed that a great number of the petitioners were from Collingwood and Westport districts?—l have not read the petition through ; I have not noticed that. 207. I have been over it all, and I find that about half come from the other side of Nelson— Motueka, Collingwood, and Westport?—l do not think that is quite correct; I think the major portion of the names are from Nelson and surrounding district, and, even if they were not, the petition applies not only to the whole district, but also to the colony, and all have an equal right to sign it, 208. Do you think any reasonable percentage of persons who signed the petition have ever been near the locality ?—I have no means of knowing that, but I should say it was doubtful whether many of them had been there ; but the same might be said regarding petitions generally. 209. Do you think when the petition started the petitioners thought it did include such a large area of land ?—They had an idea of the area of land that was included, but, as I have stated, I think they rather were impressed with the belief that it did not include so large a proportion of the total quantity of timber. They were approximately aware of the area of the land itself, but they did not know that it included so great a proportion of sawmilling timber. 210. In that report you have referred to it stated that there were about 40,000 acres of timber land ?—That may be so. 211. And you quoted it just now?— About 20,000 acres excess, was it not? 212. Well, that is nearly half the whole of the timber reserve —of the forest land nearly half. There is only about 40,000 acres altogether; and what the Nelson people ask for is that portion that has been stated, which is really only a portion of the whole ?—I do not know what portion of the whole the Eonga Valley may be. 213. Have you been over the Pelorus land?—l have, but it was a long time ago. 214. Could you give us any idea with regard to the flora, &c, of the Pelorus Valley?—No, I could not. I went up about mining interests, which occupied all my attention. 215. You would not be surprised that the timber was equally as well grown up the Pelorus Valley as in the Eonga, but not in such great quantities, in fact ?—The timber of equal quality is comparatively, I should say, a very small quantity indeed. Mr. Mills : There are some good large quantities, but I think they would not be of anything like the extent or anything like the quality of that in the Eonga. 216. Mr. Mills.] We propose to set apart a suitable block of land up in the Pelorus Valley, which will show people the class of timber that grew there, and this is equally as well grown as that of the two valleys in question, only, of course, it is not so thick. (To witness): From your experience

14

I.—sb

in the clearing of all bush-valleys, is it not a fact that all creeks get enlarged after clearing ?—Yes; I suppose that is a natural law. Some of them become torrents and tear the land to pieces. 217. Taking all the way down the Pelorus, do you think there has been very much alteration in the Pelorus Eiver ? —That Ido not know. Until comparatively a few years ago I had not much knowledge of the Pelorus—not enough to remember and note its changes. I have passed down there a long time ago, but I am not able to speak with authority on the point. 218. Have you been on the Croixelles Saddle?— That is at the head of the Eonga. My visit was up to the head of the Eonga Valley, but not over the range into the Croixelles. 219. Have you no idea as to the height it was? —Yes, about 700 ft. or 800 ft., as far as I remember. 220. Mr. Gilfedder.] You could not bring the timber out of the valley across the range to the mills? —No, you could not. With reference to the information as to the comparative quantities of timber, as represented to me it was something like this: there would be about thirty years' timber in these two valleys at the present rate of cutting, whether with one mill or more ; while outside these two valleys it was represented to me that there would only be about six or seven years' cutting in the whole district, and this, I was told, would include all the milling timber in what is known as Bennie Gully, the Wakamarina and Valleys.

Friday, 29th July, 1898. Mr. C. W. Adams examined. 1. The Chairman.] I understand, Mr. Adams, that you wish to make a statement to the Committee —perhaps you might call it evidence—in reference to this Eai Valley petition and its counter-petition. You are Commissioner of Crown Lands, I understand ? —Yes ; Mr. Mills saw me and said he thought it would be advisable I should give what information I could. I have not read these two petitions. 2. I suppose you know about them ?—I know there have been two petitions, one from a few people from Nelson asking for a reserve, and I understand the other petition is that it should not be locked up. 3. Would you kindly state to the Committee what you and your Land Board know of the land mentioned in this petition?—l would simply say that I and two or three of the Land Board went up there to look at the valley ourselves. I had never seen it before. I had heard a great deal about it, and I certainly was very greatly surprised to see the large quantity of timber. In fact, I have been over a great deal of the bush country in Otago—a forest about twenty miles long and thirty miles wide:—and I do not think I have ever seen, in any part of New Zealand I have gone to, better forest or better timber, or more of it, than in the Eai Valley. I think it is a most valuable growth of timber, and in my opinion it should be utilised. I have not taken very much interest in the matter, because, if I may give my opinion, I may state that no matter what petition was sent in or what objection there was to withdraw this forest, I think no Government, of whatever opinion, would consent to lock up such a valuable asset. Of course, we are all very glad to preserve the scenery, but I think it would be paying too high a price to withhold that from use. I may say the opinion of the Board was pretty well stated in that report we wrote [Exhibit No. 2]. Going over it again, we have made the three following recommendations. The first is, " That all the tithes of royalties now charged for timber taken off Crown lands should be raised throughout the colony, instead of sacrificing such a valuable asset, as that would be the first step to encourage every owner to conserve whatever valuable timber he may have, instead of recklessly destroying it." I have a very strong opinion on that matter. For this reason : our timber is not at all the same as the commercial timbers of the southern countries of Europe. They are there continually replanting and selling their timber. I do not think it is possible to replant our timber; we may plant Californian timber. Ido not know about totara ; I think it might grow again. I think it is pretty regularly grown. Mr. Percy Smith, Surveyor-General, told me in Auckland the nursery-gardeners sell thousands of totara a year, and Ido not think it is slow-growing. I had a great deal to do in the Catlin's Forest, and I have seen the seeds of the totara-trees lying on the ground. It is a little fiery-red group. I thought it would be a fine chance to get seeds. I have tried always, but never could get a seed. It matures and grows. I have seen the young clusters growing up. I have never been able to get the totara in Auckland. 4. You can get totara in Auckland as well as in other places ?—I have tried, but cannot get them. Ido not think it is possible to replace the matai, kahikatea, or white-pine. That is one reason why we ought to take every care of the forests we have got, and I think we ought not to let them be consumed injudiciously. With regard to this Eai Forest, I think it would be advisable if we could see our way to opening it up. I think we should not run it out under fifty years, or something like that. With regard to conserving forests, I may hold some peculiar opinions about that. 5. That has nothing to do with our petition ?—lt has in this way : I say, in conserving forests, the very best way is to sell them. If it gets into private hands they take care it is not recklessly destroyed. I instance the forest on the Taieri Plain. If it had not been sold it would have been destroyed twenty years before it was. It was sold in small lots, and all utilised. Our second recommendation was, " That the Government should take immediate steps to purchase the Pelorus Tramway from the present owners, and supply the timber from the Crown lands at certain fixed rates, including haulage and royalties, or let the timber be removed from given areas of land under reasonable restrictions, the tithes to be fixed hereafter, and the sawmillers paying haulage." That is our second recommendation. The third recommendation was, " That, if the Government decide not to purchase the Pelorus Tramway at once, every reasonable facility by way of reduction

15

t—sb

in tithes over stated areas of sawmilling timber should be given to such an enterprising firm as Brownlee and Company immediately, so as to encourage them to extend their tramway up the Eai Valley, and thus continue the excellent work of finding steady employment for the great number of workmen who have signed the petition." Of course, the third recommendation is in the event of the first two falling through. My opinion is that the Government should acquire the tramway, and then sell the timber so that it should not be consumed too soon. There is no doubt there will be a large demand for timber yet for many years to come, especially in the Wairau. We are opening up more lands there, and the Starborough Estate is perfectly treeless. It is a difficult matter now for the settlers of Starborough to get firewood to their camps, and the same equally applies to the Flaxbourne Estate. 6. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] There is plenty on the hills?— There may be a little. I cannot give you any very reliable information as to the number of superficial feet, but that is all in other reports, where they have made careful estimates. Eoughly speaking, I think we can easily depend upon 20,000 acres at ten to fifteen thousand superficial feet per acre; that makes two hundred to three hundred million feet. That is out of those two valleys alone. That does not take into consideration the Wakamarina. 7. Mr. J. C. Wason.] Which two valleys?—-Eonga and Opoura Valleys. 8. The Chairman.] Have you any opinion to express in reference to the counter-petition from the Nelson people wishing to reserve this for a park ? —I am a great admirer of natural scenery, but, at the same time, I have often said that the bane of New Zealand is we have too much good scenery. If we had more arable land it would be better. I have never been over all the romantic parts of Marlborough, but there is no doubt we have plenty of beautiful places to reserve without locking up all this valuable timber. I think we sent over a map showing the reserves. Mr. Mills : Yes, there is a map here of the reserves, but they are not all shown. 9. The Chairman.] Have the Nelson petitioners submitted their petition to the Land Board before sending it on ? Did they consult the Land Board in the matter before they got up this petition? —I do not think they did. I think the resolution sent to the Board was against it. The Chairman: Perhaps it might be the best way for any information to be brought out in the shape of questions. The members of the Committee will ask you questions, Mr. Adams. 10. Mr. Mills.] Since you have been Commissioner of Crown Lands, Mr. Adams, have not we made a great number of scenery reserves?— Yes, we have made several. 11. From your local knowledge, do you think the reserve that we last recommended in the Brown would meet the requirements of those who wish to spend any time in visiting that class of reserve ? —I have before stated that I have not gone over a great many of the picturesque places, and that is one I have never been over. I have only been to the junction of the Brown Eiver and the Eai. lam informed there is some fine scenery there, and that reserves would take all the vacant land between the State Forest and the Marlborough Top Eeserve, you might say. 12. You mentioned, Mr. Adams, about planting. Do you not think that climatic conditions would not be suitable for those classes of trees to be replanted ? —Certainly; but I think, at the same time, there is no difficulty in growing timber-trees in New Zealand. In my experience, from the north to the south, from the driest to the wettest, I have never come across a part of New Zealand where you could not grow good timber at certain times. 13. Do you recollect, Mr. Adams, what resolution was passed by the Board when those interested in the Nelson petition wrote asking the Board to recommend this large block to be set apart ? —We got no petition. 14. There was no petition?—l know the feeling of the Board was against that resolution. 15. Do you think it would be possible for us to lock up that large area of timber land without doing serious injury to Marlborough itself?—l certainly think it would be very injurious, and I do not think any of the members of the Land Board took at all an energetic part in the discussion. We all considered it was out of the knowledge of practical politics to lock up a land like that. We thought no Government would part with such a valuable piece of timber, and not make use of it. 16. Mr. Hogg.] You say there is about 20,000 acres of good timber in these two valleys ?—I make that statement roughly. I have only been up one valley. 17. Eoughly speaking, how many miles of tramway would that involve?—lt is marked out on the plan. [Plan put in.] 18. Have you included a portion of the hillside in computing your 20,000 acres ?—Yes. Mr. Eutland is a very careful man in making his reports, and he says he estimates the area at about 26,000, and, say, 10,000 level. 19. Do you think the whole of this land, once the timber is removed, would be suitable for settlement ?—Certainly; every bit would be taken up, and more. 20. Is it quite suitable for small settlement ? —The valleys are good. I may tell you this plan [produced] is taken from a very careful plan made by Pickering. These little dotted lines [indicated] show the boundaries of the flat land at the foot of the hills all round. It is a really good valley; there is a good deal of flat land. Plenty of room for homesteads up all the valleys. I think it could be all taken up to our Forest Eeserves line. 21. Once the land was being worked by the sawmills, do you think the land could be used for farms ?—Yes. 22. You said that you thought the timber could be utilised in such a way that it would not be consumed for the next fifty years?— Yes. 23. In making that statement have you considered the desirability of opening it up within a reasonable period for settlement ? —As soon as the timber is off. 24. If you extend the settlement of 20,000 acres over fifty years you really only open up on an average of 400 acres per annum ?—I do not look at it in that light. I may say there would be

I.—sb

16

double the area opened up for settlement than that that would be cleared by the sawmillers. There would always be the high country behind it. For every 100 acres the sawmiller opened up there would be cleared 200 acres. 25. Would that be suitable for sheep ?—Yes. At the same time, the value of the timber on the land is more than the value of the land itself. It does not do to sacrifice the timber always. 26. Have you had any calculation as to the cost of a tramway and cost of a good road ?—I have not entered into that calculation, but should be strongly in favour of a tramway. 27. Notwithstanding the road is so serviceable for wheel traffic, you think the tramway would be preferable to the construction of a road?—l hold very strongly to the point. I was for eleven years in the Catlin's Bush in Otago, and my opinion is that a combined road and tramway, with wooden rails, would suit that country better than anything else. Eun them both together, the tramway on both sides, similar to what sawmillers bring down their big logs to the mills. All the materials could be got there, and I think that would be a fine paying and a most economical way of opening up the country. The settlers all about, whenever I advocated it, were against it. I said, "It is your look-out; if you like to remain in the mud you can." Four horses would not take a ton. 28. Mr. Lang.] Did I understand you correctly to say, if necessary, to make more reserves in the district there were other places with quite as fine scenery but not as valuable in other respects ? —I believe so. I have not been over all the country, but the Eev. Dr. Grace told me that up the Wakamarina, I think, it was far better. He said they were beautiful valleys. 29. It "would not be as valuable for timber?—No, there is no question of that. As I say, there is a great deal too much grand scenery in the Marlborough Sounds. 30. Did I understand you to say you recommended this timber should not be consumed too soon —should not be run out under fifty years ? Is there any danger from fire?—l do not think there is any danger, or very little, in standing bush; but the moment the sawmill gets in, then there is danger with the heads. 31. The point I wanted to know is if it would not be dangerous to extend it out—whether there would not be more danger from fire? —You must take care the part cut does not endanger the part not cut. 32. How would you provide against that ?—I cannot say, unless it is made necessary to clear the heads. 33. Mr. Gilfedder.] Mr. Adams, you calculate there will be at least two hundred million superficial feet of timber ?—That is a low estimate. 34. That would be worth at least half a million of money?— Yes. 35. Is there anything extraordinary in the scenery in this locality?— No. It would not compare in any way favourably with our best scenery in New Zealand; take the west coast of the South Island or the sounds at the north of Marlborough. There is one unique peculiarity about it, you can see grand forest scenery. 36. There is nothing besides that ?—No. 37. You consider we have any amount of that scenery in New Zealand without making a reserve specially ?—We have calculated it would take fifty years to cut this out at the rate they are cutting it out now. There is only one mill, I think. 38. Is it not probable there would be other mills starting as well, and, consequently, it would be cut out in half that time? —-Yes, but I think I should keep raising the royalty, if required, so as to restrict the output. 39. What would you suggest as a royalty?— The Board recommended Is. at least. 40. In your opinion the picturesqueness of the scenery does not justify the locking-up of this half-million of valuable timber, which, if at 6d., means about £50,000? —Certainly not. 41. There are parts of New Zealand which are of the most picturesque description, and very little use for anything else ? —That is so. 42. Mr. Wason.] You told us, Mr. Adams, there was a deposit of timber on this land you thought of value? —Yes. 43. Do you think that timber has arrived at its full growth ?—I suppose it has arrived at its full growth ; but I think that is a question not known very well among the best scientists. 44. Are there any signs of decay ? —A few fallen trees. I think the totara is the most liable to decay. 45. Your Land Board arrived at three conclusions. The first was that the tithes should be raised, and the second that this tramway should be purchased by the Government. Did the Board visit the tramway?—We rode on the truck all the way up. 46. Can you tell us the state it was in?—lt was in fair working-order, but would require a good deal more repairs, I dare say, to be opened for heavier traffic. 47. I notice a printed report by an engineer giving fuller particulars? —Of course, I did not examine it; I just rode over it. 48. Did you see the bridges ?—Yes, we passed over those two bridges. 49. Is it possible to construct a tramway into this forest without taking over this Pelorus Tramway ? —I do not think there is any other good road. I have seen it mentioned it might be possible to take one on the north side. I think the present line is the best by far, and cheapest to construct. 50. We were told by a former witness that in the course of twelve months all the timber where this tramway was would be worked out ? —That is quite possible— I do not know—that is, all within reach of the present line as far as it is opened. Ido not think the present line reaches the junction of the Eonga and Eai by four or five miles. 51. The present valley ?—The country we spoke of is miles beyond the present tramway. 52. We have been told the timber to be carried by the tramway could be cut out in twelve months ? —That is, as far as it goes now.

17

I.—sb

53. If the tramway is not extended it becomes practically valueless. There is no other value except the timber?—l do not think so. The road is on the other side of the river. 54. Have you compared your resolution with that of the Land Board ? Have you any reason to believe Messrs. Brownlee would construct a tramway further up if they got certain concessions ? — I believe they would. In fact, they would have to, I suppose. 55. This timber has been estimated as being worth about ss. per 100 ft. ?—I think that is a. very low estimate. 56. What I want to get at is, there is no scarcity, as far as you know, of timber in New Zealand at the present time ?—Certainly not, as far as merchants go. 57. Cannot merchants supply this readily, and at a low rate, for what is required ?—I think they can. I think the timber is being cut far too rapidly. I think in the South the timber has been destroyed and cut too fast. 58. Do not you think, in the course of a few years more, with settlement progressing as it is now, and there being distinct signs of decay in the bush, that timber will probably, in the course of another five-and-twenty years, be of much greater value than at present ?—Certainly ; it would be worth double if it remained as it is now. We are fast getting to the end of our timber in New Zealand. 59. Hon. Mr. Bolleston.] A settlement was laid out, as far as I remember, in the middle of a forest there ?—I believe there was. 60. What access was there intended to be to that settlement ?—The main road to Nelson. 61. Would not that mam road be an outlet for the timber?— Yes; you would have to cross over the Eai. But I suppose it is out of the question altogether to think of carting timber down when you could possibly get a tramway. 62. You are strongly in favour of the purchase of the present tramway—the Board has made a distinct recommendation for the purchase of this tramway?—lt would be a most economical thing to do. 63. With regard to this settlement and access to the road, is there any other means of communication to be devised for getting the timber out but by this tramway ?—-Not that I know of, except by another tramway. 64. You said just now the road would open a considerable portion ?—I do not think any one carting on the road could compete with the tramway. I think if Messrs. Brownlee and Co. had to cart their timber they would have to shut the mill. 65. You do not wish there should be a monopoly given to one person of this kind of access?—Certainly not. 66. How would you guard against it ? —The idea of the Land Board was, it would be open to anybody who liked. 67. Did the Board mean the Government to work the tramway?— That was a question not touched upon. 68. How were they to keep it open, then, to a number of mills ? —I do not know of any tramway worked that way. I believe there have been some worked by the Government. My scheme of putting a tramway in the Catlin's Bush was, I thought the Government might let it to certain people to do the haulage. You could let a contract to the mills. 69. Then the Board has formed no idea as to serving the timber, giving opportunity of setting up mills, and generally providing for the sole consumption for fifty years of the timber. What is their plan ?—I may say that this matter of fifty years was never debated. That is an idea of my own. The second recommendation was, " That the Government should take immediate steps to purchase the Pelorus tramway from the present owners, and supply the timber from the Crown lands at certain fixed rates, including haulage and royalties, or let the timber be removed from given areas of land, under reasonable restrictions, the tithes to be fixed hereafter, and the sawmillers paying haulage." 70. As to subdividing the land and preserving the forest —that is what I want to arrive at ?— You could let a contract to a contractor to run trams at so many a week and so many a day, at certain fixed rates. That is practicable. But you could not open a tramway and let all and sundry use it. It must be run like a coach or a railway. 71. What do you reckon as the value of the tramway—have you formed no value of the present tramway ? Is it ballasted ? Is any portion of the sleepers sound ?—A portion of them has been renewed. 72. You have no idea of the present cost of the tramway?—l have not estimated it. 73. Were you on the Board when the recommendation was made that the estate should be purchased? —Yes. We recommended the purchase, but supposed it fair value. Looking at it as a business transaction we thought it would be far better to make that recommendation than make a new one. 74. Has the Board any suggestion to provide for the land that has been deforested ?—-We did not go into that question. 75. Was no account of dealing with a forest of this kind taken by the Board in what it proposed to (Jo ?—I do not think we went into that question. I understand they have a Forest Department advising the Government about dealing with all State forests. 76. You were speaking just now of the areas, and so on, and spoke as though the areas you gave were to run up into this Forest Eeserve. You said there were somewhere about 50,000 acres of land that could be settled. Would that not run into this Forest Eeserve ?—There is a forest what you call the State Forest Eeserve. 77. There is some of it, as I understand, the crown of the hills, and all round this is reserved for climatic purposes ?—There is a mile from the top of the ridge down. Ido not think it is intended to touch that. It is climatic reserve, and I think it is a very good thing. 3—l. sb.

I.—sb

18

78. Do not you think any arrangement could be made with regard to this block by which a national park could be reserved and a provision made for using the rest of the forest ?—Yes, it might be. 79. Has Mr. McKerrow or Mr. Barron been over this? —I do not know. 80. Mr. Flatman.] You were speaking with regard to any of the timber decaying. I suppose in all bush there is a certain percentage of timber decaying ? —Yes. 81. And there is a certain amount of timber not matured?— That is so. I do not think a forest would deteriorate in any way. As you say, what has passed its maturity is being replaced by timber not arrived at its maturity. 82. And of the timber most liable to be destroyed by fire—what timber would that be, say, in a green bush, in your idea?—l should think it would be the totara. 83. Where there was not much totara, you would scarcely get a fire to run through green bush ?—Not if ordinary precautions were taken. A dry season like last, there would be a great risk. 84. It would not affect matai, &c. ? —I do not think so. 85. The fire is carried by the current of air from one tree to another, and so on ?—Yes. 86. Do you think it would be possible that this bush could be let for sawmilling purposes, in such a way as to prevent the fire spreading in the part which you have gone over, and not endanger the green bush?—l think it has been done over and over again where timber has been sold. Where men go into a reserve they are quite careless. 87. Could you sell the firewood, and get rid of the surplus? —I do not think you could sell it. 88. Mr. J. W. Thomson.] In one of the petitions that came before us, it was stated if the Government were to purchase this tramway, probably five or six mills would be started in this forest ?—I think there would be several mills if allowed to be started—perhaps ten or twenty. If I were the Government I would not lock it up. 89. This bush might be cut out for, say, fifty years? —That is my private opinion. I meant to say I would be very sorry to destroy the goose that lays the golden eggs all at once. 90. Five or six mills would cut it out in, say, ten years ? —Yes. 91. To have the bush cut out in, say, fifty years, that could all be done by, say, Messrs. Brownlee, or a smaller company : by buying the tramway and extending it they could work the whole thing without the Government interfering at all ?—Possibly they could. 92. The bush would be cut out in, say, fifty years, by one mill ?—I dare say it might. 93. Do you think the bush could not be cut out in a shorter period than fifty years ? —My own opinion is we will have no Native bush in fifty years. 94. That would mean all the bush would be cut out in fifty years ?—I would not say that. 95. The Chairman.] You said, Mr. Adams, that, speaking roughly, you estimate about 200,000,000 ft. of timber in that 20,000 acres. The present tithe is 6d. a hundred?—l believe so. 96. That would give a total capital value to the State of £25,000. 97. Do you state that it would be necessary to extend the present line of tramway sixteen miles to tap this timber. It has already been stated in evidence this tramway would cost an average of about £2,000 a mile. Suppose you were asked whether it would be advisable to make sixteen miles of new tramway at £2,000 a mile—purchasing the old line at £17,000 —that would make a total of, say, £50,000. Do you consider it would be a business transaction for the State to spend £50,000 for the sake of taking out timber. It would produce in royalty £25,000 to the State? Mr. Mills : You are in error, Mr. Chairman. 200,000,000 ft. of timber at 6d. royalty is exactly £50,000. 98. The Chairman.] Well, then, supposing it was £50,000, that would just cover the cost of the charges and construction of the tram-line : would there be no other traffic to keep this tram-line working after the timber was raised ?—Well, it is supposed it would be utilised if ever a through line were made to Nelson. Our first recommendation was that the royalty should be made Is. 99. That would be all very good if you could raise the market-rate for timber. You must bear in mind, if you raise the royalty too much you put the sawmiller in the position that he cannot compete with other sawmills. Mr. Mills : He means to make it universal. 100. The Chairman.] Of course, if there was any possibility of any other work for this tramway to do—because it would practically be a light railway; in fact, it would have to be a railway —of course, if there was a prospect of any other traffic growing up in the meantime to support this railway, then there might be something in it. If the recommendation is purely to construct this tramway for the sake of taking out this timber, then it is a matter to consider whether it would pay to do it ?—lt is most important to raise the royalty at once. That would have the effect of keeping down the output a little bit. 101. Mr. Mills.] About what value is the line at present, Mr. Adams? What valuation should we assess this class of land if selling now, without royalties or anything?— Probably £1 an acre. 102. Mr. Duncan] Would that include the timber on it?— Yes, the timber would be destroyed. 103. Mr. Mills.] If this settlement was surveyed, if the survey had been allowed to continue, would that not have been destroyed—all that they took up ? —I think so. You might have got rid of some of it. 104. If this tramway was taken into this land, then, what difference do you think there would be in the value between the £1 an acre now and when the tramway was taken in—so that the Government could sell the land with the timber ? What, in your opinion, would be the value of that land then?—l reckon the value would be almost doubled. 105. Supposing the Government had a line in there, do you not think they could sell the land and timber at a considerable advance on what they could sell it for to-day?— Certainly.

19

I.—sb

106. Mr. Flatman] Have you been through this bush, Mr. Adams?—l have been through it nearly to the head of the Opouri. 107. What kind of timber is predominant all through?—l think red-pine would be the most plentiful. 108. Is it totara?—l think totara would not be the best —-say, per acre, rimu, 5,000; whitepine, 2,700; matai, 1,700; totara, only 100, superficial feet per acre. 109. Mr. Lang.] That is very light ?—Yes ; the matai is ten times more plentiful, the rimu fifty times more plentiful, and white-pine about thirty times more plentiful. The rimu is the prevailing timber. That has been carefully gone over.

Thursday, 4th August, 1898. Mr. Graham, M.H-E., in introducing a deputation of some half dozen gentlemen from Nelson and district, who were desirous of expressing their views regarding the preservation of the Eonga and Opouri Valleys as a national forest reserve, said : — Being interested in the petition before you for consideration, I communicated with my friends in Nelson, with the result that I have now here six gentlemen who represent the people of Nelson in this matter; and they have come over especially for the purpose of meeting the Committee here this morning—some of them at great inconvenience leaving their own private business. As they are desirous of returning as soon as possible, they will make their statement as concise as possible, and will be prepared to answer the Committee any questions they may care to put. Some of these gentlemen particularly are personally acquainted with these valleys, and will be able to give us more information about them than the Committee has yet heard. Some are here on general grounds, to prevent, if they can, what they think would be a great disaster to the country if these valleys were destroyed. Mr. Trask, Mayor of Nelson, made a statement, and was examined. Mr. Trash : We are delegated by the citizens of Nelson and the people living in the district and province to represent in this matter not only the four thousand petitioners, but also those who remain in the province—something like fifteen thousand people. I should like it to be understood that we have not come here in any way in an antagonistic spirit towards those persons where these beautiful valleys are situated—that is, the Province of Marlborough. I should like also to say we are not here in any way to attempt to injure the industry of Havelock, or of any person who is inclined to cut this timber down for public purposes : far from it. We are simply here to represent the people of New Zealand as a whole, and to endeavour if possible to preserve a portion of your land in such a manner that it will be beneficial in after years, not only to the Provinces of Nelson and Marlborough, but to the whole of New Zealand. We come here at great personal disadvantage to ourselves, because we feel in our own mind that after being requested by the people of Nelson it was our duty to come whether it was at a disadvantage to ourselves or not. We have the matter greatly at heart; and we feel that now is the time to come and visit you, so that two of the most beautiful valleys in the South Island should not be destroyed. The question is this :Is it advisable to allow the petitioners from the Marlborough province or Havelock to purchase the timber in these valleys, cut it down to give employment, say, for a hundred or a hundred and fifty men, and without pecuniarily benefiting those who are interested in having this timber cut down? The people in Nelson—or the majority, at all events —and a large number of people in the Province of Marlborough, are very much against these valleys being destroyed, because if destroyed they never can be replaced. Therefore, if the Committee recommends to the Government or the House, whichever it may be, that these valleys should be retained as they are they will be conferring an everlasting boon on the present generation and on those who come after them. We are simply come as delegates to plead for posterity. If these two valleys are reserved for ever and ever it will be a national park for those who are living at the present time and for the generations yet to come. That is our only desire— to preserve these two valleys from destruction if possible. We do not consider the pecuniary amount that would be gained by Government will in any way compensate any person against the compensation that the people of New Zealand will have in possessing these valleys as an everlasting inheritance. The kernel of the question is this: If these valleys are cut down for timber we shall, in our opinion, be destroying one of the brightest gems in the South Island—a gem that we shall never be able to get back again—the beauty of those two valleys and the scenery that is presented to any one who may go that way. lam taking the matter all round. Ido think and hope, on behalf of the petitioners and the people we represent, that you will well consider the matter before you put your report before the Government. 1. Mr. Mills (to witness).] Have you ever been in the valleys? —Only as far as the mouth of the valleys. I have never been in them. 2. Do you know what effect the cutting-up of these valleys would have on the timber industry in Marlborough ?—No more than that it will keep about a hundred and fifty men in employment there for about four years. That is the only way I can answer that question. 3. Do you know what quantity of timbered land there is still in the Nelson Province ?—No, I do not. 4. Would you be surprised if the department told you there were 1,700,000 acres of timber in the Nelson Province now ?—I should not be surprised to hear there was a certain amount of timber, but I do not think it is much good. 5. Would you be surprised to know that 40,000 acres is the outside area of good timbered land in Marlborough?—No, I would not. That is one reason why I think this timber should be reserved, because it is getting so scarce.

I.—sb

20

6. How would you suggest Marlborough getting their supplies of timber if this industry were closed ? What would they have to depend upon ? —I suppose they would have to send to other parts of New Zealand to get timber. 7. What reserves for scenery purposes or national parks have been made in the Nelson District ? —There are two reserves, of about 2,000 acres, roughly speaking. They are the Waterworks, and the top end of the Maitai Valley. That is all I know myself. 8. Mr. J. W. Thomson] You spoke as if these forests could be reserved for all time, I think, as a national park ? —Yes. 9. Do not you think they might be burnt—that fire might get into them and destroy them ?— I have been informed that should these valleys get on fire it must be wilfully caused. They cannot be burnt by fires coming from parts surrounding these valleys. Of course, any one wilfully going to set a fire in the bush might get it destroyed; otherwise, in my opinion, it would never be destroyed. 10. I have understood that the timber industry is a very important industry in Marlborough. Do you not think if these forests were to be shut up it would do a great deal of harm to the industry of Marlborough?—lt would do harm, as I have just stated to Mr. Mills, for about four years. The question is, Should we do what the Marlborough people want —destroy two valleys, which would be an everlasting disaster to the colony generally ? 11. We have had before us that there are a great many scenery reserves. Are you aware of that ?—No, I am not. 12. Hon. W. Bolleston] Do you know about the proposals being made for taking over the tramway ?—I have heard that there are proposals; in fact, Mr. Mills told me himself in c6nversation. 13. I do not wish to pursue the question unless you could tell me how it would affect the disposal of this forest ? —I was rather disinclined to refer to the owner of the line, if possible, because we are not here to damage any one in particular. 14. Mr. Flatman] I think I understood you to say it would be detrimental to the trade of Marlborough for about four years ? —That is what I should imagine. 15. You mean the wood would be cut in four years?—l have been given to understand that it would be all cut down in about four years, and the men employed would have to seek for labour elsewhere. 16. Perhaps you do not know that we have evidence here to the effect that it would last one mill for twenty-five years?—l should not be surprised to hear anything that has been put before the Committee. That is one reason why I prefer not to go too intimately into the matter. I prefer not to injure any one by referring to their proposals. 17. Mr. Wason] About these hundred and fifty men being employed for four years : That is not presuming for a moment that the work could be carried out simply by one mill—it would mean several started ? —I dare say a number of mills would be started, but they would probably be started by the same firm. 18. Possibly a hundred and fifty men now? —I have been told, on good authority, that it would not employ more than a hundred to a hundred and fifty men for four years. 19. That is, if the Marlborough petition is granted? —Yes; that is if Erskine's petition is granted. 20. Have you any idea of the value of the soil in these valleys for settlement purposes after the timber is destroyed ?—Yes ; I think it would be very good soil—in fact, the soil is very good on what has been already cleared in the Pelorus Valley and the Eai Valley. As to the other districts, I have been given to understand that the flat for cultivation is very little good compared with what is lying on the hillside. 21. The Chairman (to witness) : You had better confine yourself to your own knowledge. 22. Mr. Wason (continuing) : Of course, people outside Nelson and Marlborough are inclined to look on them as one province. Do you know of your own knowledge if there is much land to be purchased in Nelson and Marlborough? —Oh, yes, there is, but that has been locked up by the railway-lines. 23. Do you think if the Government pursue their policy as to Marlborough in regard to reserves there will be no land for settlement after some years?— Yes; that is my firm opinion. 24. Do you know what effect it would be likely to have on the climate of the district generally —the destruction of these forests? —It would have a very great effect. I have lived in Nelson for thirty-seven years, and have seen that the more bush there was destroyed the less rain there would be for the farmers in regard to their crops. Mr. Trash explained a matter that Mr. Wason had asked about, in reference to there being sufficient room for a railway without interfering with Mr. Brownlee's tramway, by saying, " There is room on the main road. Mr. Brownlee's tramway is on the left-hand side going to Havelock, and the main road is on the Havelock side." Mr. C. Y. Fell, of Nelson, made a statement and was examined. Mr. Fell: After the very disastrous bush-fires of last year there was a feeling in my district that some steps should be taken to conserve beautiful portions of the bush remaining. As president of the Nelson Scenery Preservation Society I was asked by several influential people to call a meeting and consider the matter. The meeting was called and was largely attended; the position of these two valleys was again brought up and thoroughly discussed, and it was generally felt desirable by those present to take over for preservation some block of bush in these valleys. A committee was formed, and a petition circulated. The whole thing has been done in an absolutely voluntary manner; and the committee as it stands before this Committee is an absolutely voluntary one. We had a belief that we should be assisted by the people of Marlborough, and we sent people over there to see them about it. The Marlborough Daily Times, on the 25th February, 1898, says,

21

1.-—sb

at the conclusion of an article on the subject, "The object that the Nelson Scenery Preservation Society has in view is an excellent one, and the locality they have selected as a site for a national park appears to be thoroughly suitable." With that we had good hopes that it would be warmly taken up in Blenheim; but, as it happened, there was considerable opposition on the part of Mr. Brownlee. We have no personal feeling against that gentleman, but he was a man of very considerable influence in that district, and his opposition took the form of a counter-petition, which received many names. But of the Blenheim people there are five hundred names on our own petition. Dr. Gleghorn, however, who represents Blenheim, is here, and will speak of the attitude of that town. The chief reason I give for making this reserve is that the block in question contains the finest untouched piece of timber remaining in Marlborough or Nelson. As the Committee know, the greater part of Marlborough is open sheep country without any bush on it. There was, further, a large stretch of bush in the Kaituna and Pelorus Valleys. Those two valleys were bought for sawmilling purposes and entirely denuded of bush; and the next piece of accessible untouched bush is half-way between Nelson and Blenheim. I should say there is a large quantity still, as I understand, up the Wakamarina Valleys and up the Pelorus. From a report made by the Surveyor-General, published by the Marlborough Land Board, and republished by the Mar thorough Observer, I take the following extract : " (Question by the Chairman of the Land Board) : You believe the timber would more than pay for the construction of a railway-line right up to the timber ? (Hon. Mr. Cad man, in reply) : Yes, three or four times over, for, at the lowest calculation, without going into details, the timber that is in the Eai Valley is only a small portion of the whole amount; there is a very large quantity of timber in the Wakamarina. I think there is at least £100,000 worth of royalties in that place, and in saying this I feel that lam within the mark." Dnder these circumstances we felt that there was a large quantity of timber, altogether outside that with which we were dealing. In the district to which I more particularly belong there was, in former years, a large quantity of timber in Nelson and in the Waimea Valley, and in the neighbouring districts. Now, the Waimea is practically denuded of timber ; the Takaka Valley is also, to all purposes, cut out, and the Collingwood also is in a similar position. There is a large quantity of timber standing yet in the Nelson Province. Any one standing, say, on the Hope Saddle can see that is so ; but it is out of reach, useless, and inaccessible. I have no doubt that the figures quoted by Mr. Mills, and given him by the Waste Lands Department, are perfectly correct; but that timber is useless for the purposes for which we wish the reserve to be made. In fact, there is timber on the Maungatapu and other mountains, but it is inaccessible, and useless for what we consider this reserve should be made. This particular piece we are considering, however, is a fine piece of land near the main coach-road, and is altogether useful for the purposes of a reserve. Ido not know the area of this land, but it consists of two valleys bounded by two birch-clad hills. It will be practically secure from fire. The valleys are low and protected by the hills, and there is practically no possibility that it can be touched by fire. In this bush there are all kinds and varieties of native birds. The enormous number of tuis when I last went there was incredible. They live in this bush, and it is their home. The native pigeon resort there in great numbers ; the crow, and all other birds driven from other districts of New Zealand are to be found there, and it is their home. Beside all these reasons it is known as one of the chief attractions of the Nelson Province for its beautiful scenery. We are a small place—■ our industries very small—and -we must preserve what attractions we have. One of the greatest of these is natural scenery. The same applies to Blenheim. This, if reserved, would attract visitors from all parts of the colony. The Eonga Valley is, practically speaking, low, and communicates with the Croiselles Harbour. It is easily accessible from Nelson and Wellington. There is a road through from the Croiselles to the Pelorus vid. the Eonga. I have never been through, but I know it is a most beautiful country. The Opouri Valley communicates with the upper part of the Pelorus Sound. It is easily accessible from Wellington. If these valleys are left untouched they will be a playground to people from all parts of Nelson and New Zealand. I am sure, if the Committee will leave these lands reserved, the wisdom of it will be felt in less than twenty years by everybody in the colony. It is, of course, impossible that an effort of this sort should affect the interests of no one at all. Now, I have nothing to say against Mr. Brownlee, for I esteem his character; but Ido say that the interests of the colony at large are larger than his, however enterprising he is. He puts down a tramway, believing he would have a monopoly of this timber. He has put down the tramway hoping, no doubt, that he would attach this large piece of bush at the end. He did this at his own risk, and I am sorry if he feels this proposed reservation can do any damage to him. As public men, however, we may not allow this valuable matter to drop. I know there is a valuable piece of timber there, and for that reason it ought to be* reserved. With regard to the tramway, ie is common knowledge that Mr. Brownlee has been trying to get the Government to buy it. I know Mr. Brownlee has large interests on the West Coast; and it would be exceedingly well for him if he could devote his energies to the other places where he is working. The timber is shipped from Havelock to other parts of New Zealand altogether, and it can be got from other places altogether. It cannot be taken overland, and the timber which comes to Blenheim comes by ship and by rail. I do not pose here as an expert in the matter of timber. I present myself as the chairman of this particular society, and I represent the views that govern us in that direction. We believe that for the sake of the temporary profit that can be made—and it is but temporary profit made out of the sale of this timber—-it would be wrong for that reason to do that which can never be undone ; and we think it would be a wrong to posterity. If the sawmill goes through that country there is an end to it, because the sawmill leaves the tops, and it is a matter of absolute certainty that the whole would be burnt out. We have seen it in our own district. Wherever there has been any felled piece of bush the fire has gone right through, and the destruction has been lamentable. We believe this portion of the virgin bush should be kept as a sanctuary for the flora and fauna of the country, not only for us but for the whole colony. lam not pleading this simply for a mere aesthetic concern ; it has a real living

I.—sb

22

side, and I believe that side will be more and more recognised as time goes on. Ido think if we succeed >in inducing the Committee to see the justice of our claim we shall not have spent our time in vain. 25. Mr. Mills] Do you know what is the extent of Mr. Brownlee's interest on the West Coast ? —I do not; it is only a rumour. 26. His son has a half-share in a very small mill there, cutting 3,000 ft. a day. Where he owns mills there is not more timber than to justify him putting up a mill that cuts 3,000 ft. a day. You said there were five hundred names from Marlborough on your petition. Could you tell the Committee what names there are from Nelson ?—There are four thousand. 27. Could you tell the Committee what names there are from the West Coast—from Westport or Collingwood ? —I do not know. Ido not think there are any from the West Coast. However, I think it is a matter in which the whole colony is concerned. 28. Was it not a fact that these bush-fires went through a large area of bush country where no sawmill had been last year?—l think that was so, but they all started as a result of settlement, and they all passed through birch bush, which is high, and has underneath it an enormous growth of what is called " moss" ; and once the fire gets into this it cannot be stopped. It was birch land and not pine-bottomed land—in fact, there is no pine-bottomed land there. 29. Do you know the Opouri Valley is the main outlet for some of the Marlborough people ? Do you know that the outlet for Tawhitinui Eeach must be by the Opouri Valley ?—I may state that I have never been through the valley. Of course I looked forward to the Government making a convenient road through, and there will be comfortable accommodation-houses erected, and it will be a playground for everybody. 30. Do you know a petition was signed about six years ago to open this valley and destroy all the timber ? —I do not remember it, but it must have been under totally different circumstances. 31. Do you know what quantity of timber would be included in the reserve asked for by the petition ?—I do not know. There would be considerable, but by far the larger area is birch hills. There are three lofty ranges of hills, and I suppose if I say three-quarters is birch I shall not be far out. 32. Would you be surprised to hear that the Commissioners of Crown Lands at Nelson and Marlborough both give the area as 20,000 acres of good land for sawmilling ?—I do not believe it is correct. But, of course, I cannot set up my will against others. 33. Do you know what difference in value there is in the land through Kaituna that you speak of since it has been cleared?—l have no doubt Blenheim and the rest, if they have got a bit of bush left it is birch. It is a poor and inhospitable valley there. 34. Do you know it is closely settled all through ?—Yes, it is. 35. Do you know from your own knowledge that this Opouri and Eonga are frequently flooded and submerged ? —No, but I have no doubt whatever that it is flooded, and that when the timber is cut there will be immense deposits of stones and silt and much cutting away of the land. 36. It is stated in the petition that this bush forms a very small portion of the whole ?—That was based in the main from the report I see here. 37. But that report says there are 20,000 acres in the two valleys?— Yes, I have no doubt there are. 38. Are there any visitors at present to this locality ?—No, not at this moment; it has not been exploited as a pleasure-ground. There are large numbers of visitors to Nelson, and there is much coach traffic because of the beautiful scenery, but that scenery has already been destroyed largely by sawmilling work, and the beauty of the road is to a large extent ruined. But I have no doubt, if these valleys were preserved, and there were pleasant stopping-places in these valleys, we should get plenty of visitors to go there. 39. It was stated to the Committee that these valleys were not visible at all from the road, and that very few went there ?—Yes, I have no doubt thousands of visitors have gone through without knowing of the existence of either of these two valleys; and yet the point of junction between the Eonga and Opouri Valleys is within half a mile of the main road, and the creek runs through from the valleys close to the main road. 40. Hon. Mr. Bolleston] Did it ever occur to you that with 20,000 acres of the best bush perhaps, as you say, in New Zealand reserved it would lead to a constant agitation about it on the part of saw-mill-owners wishing to cut it up and give employment to the public located there, and that another party, which you represent, would wish to keep it for special purposes, and that this agitation would go on, and possibly they might succeed in the end in getting facilities to cut it down ?—lt occurs to one, of course, but I thoroughly hope and believe that the people will be educated to such an extent that they will see the gross folly of having this cut down. No doubt mill-owhers would try and grab it. Such things will exist in the minds of all mill-owners, who would naturally try to get it. 41. You have no suggestion to offer that this should be permanently set aside?—l was hoping that this should be permanently and for ever set aside. But, as I understand the matter, it is now reserved. The reserve is at the pleasure of the Government, but it ought, as far as possible, to be taken out of the power of anybody to get this reserve altered. But Ido hope that we will keep the public educated up to such a point as to be strongly against destroying or ever removing the reservation. 42. Hon. Mr. Bolleston] Then, if we should get this thing possible for ten years, we should by that time get a more advanced public opinion?—l think we should. For instance, the society of New Plymouth has done the best of work already, and it was through the influence of them that I, in a humble way, got this society started in Nelson. I hope this society will continue to influence the public about these matters. 43. Then you think it should be reserved ?—Yes, it can be still reserved, and even if in ten

23

I.—sb

years' time the other opinion has way there'is the timber, and it would be more valuable then than it is now. 44. Do you not think there should be set on foot some system of conservation to resist fire and other destroying agencies? —Yes, I think so strongly, and I believe the public will thoroughly support me. ■ 45. How is this working in the forest being carried on—extravagantly, or with waste, or what ? —I am afraid, very wastefully with the best timber. The sawmill goes through the bush, cuts the forest giants down, the trees with their tops crush many other trees, and they are being destroyed constantly. I have lived in that country, and I know the result, and lam certain, unless it is isolated in the way that I am describing, it will be totally gone. 46. You think if the establishment of a national park were not carried out it would be a wasteful proceeding if this forest were dealt with as a part of the forest has already been dealt with?— Well, the sawmiller deals with the timber as he pleases. Then comes the settler, who sets fire to the remaining bush,, and away it goes—for 20,000 acres perhaps. No man can say this is not a wasteful, miserable fashion of dealing with this estate. Mr. Mills (to Hon. Mr. Bolleston) : This land is all freehold. Hon. Mr. Bolleston : Yes, but that does not make it any better. Mr. Fell (continuing) : It is worse by far from the settlers' point of view after the sawmill has gone through it first. The economical way of clearing is to clear it all underneath, and then it is felled and burnt. If the sawmiller goes through first he clears out the big trees, and there is left the mass of undergrowth and entanglement of scrub ; a great amount of work has to be done, and the burn is not so good. If this land is to be a national park it must be untouched, because once the sawmill goes through, the whole of the timber is as good as destroyed. 47. Mr. Wason] You mention you are running your head against Mr. Brownlee ?—I am afraid it is so. 48. In what way?— Well, he has established a tramway through freehold land, and, as I understand, this tramway has cost a considerable sum of money, and he has had the hope of some kind or another that he had the whole of these Eonga and Opouri Valleys at his mercy. No one else can build a sawmill profitably but Mr. Brownlee, because of his monopoly of the tramway, which has command of the whole timber area. And he has no doubt counted on keeping the access to this timber. The position as I understood it to be stated by Mr. Mills is this : that unless this land is thrown open for timber sawmilling purposes, all this industry must come to an end. There is nobody else, however, but Mr. Brownlee can undertake it, unless the Government buys the tramway. 49. But what I understand is, Mr. Brownlee has constructed the tramway at his own risk, going through freehold land, and without any assurance on the part of the Land Board that he would have a right to the timber ? —That is right. 50. That is what I am referring to.—He has no right. 51. Do you know anything about the condition of the tramway? Is it in good condition ?— Oh yes, as a tramway it is a well-constructed tramway. Ido not know how far it would be suitable; lam told it would be somewhat too narrow for a Government railway-line. But it is not a mere hastily constructed tramway. 52. Does the coach road go alongside it ?—Yes, for a long distance. 53. What is its width ?—I could not say, but it is a good road—one of the show roads of New Zealand. 54. If the Government were to purchase it would there be any obstruction to their putting a railway? For instance, would they be able to put a railroad along the tramway?—No, 1 think not. 55. Is.it likely, in your opinion, that the coach road would be sufficient for some time to come? —Yes. Of course we are urgently desirous that there should be a railway connection with Marlborough. 56. And would that necessitate the purchasing of the tramway? —Well, the tramway would certainly be useful. 57. As a matter of right I mean?— Certainly it is the route you would have to go by, whether exactly going by it I do not know. 58. But in a general way ? —Oh yes, undoubtedly. 59. Have you any idea that there is any scarcity of timber in the Provinces of Nelson or Marlborough ? —Well, Nelson has been a timber district, and Marlborough on the whole a pastoral district. There has been very little sawmilling in what may be termed Marlborough proper, but the valleys adjoining have been heavily timbered. You will find a large part of the timber that goes to Christchurch comes from Takaka and Collingwood. 60. Will you tell us what is your opinion about this land ? There are two suggestions: one that the timber should be cut, and the other that there should be set apart land less valuable for the Nelson and Marlborough people without interfering with the timber?— There is not any quantity in Nelson, because a large quantity of our land is locked up on account of the Midland Bail way. 61. But is the land in the Marlborough or in the Nelson district owned in large enough extent to satisfy those desiring it ?—Oh, yes, I should think there will be enough to satisfy demands. 62. Mr. Mills] Do you know what number of scenic reserves of Marlborough lands have been reserved during the past few years ?—Oh yes, but they have been quite inaccessible to human beings, either by boat or otherwise. I have no doubt the reserves have been made in a proper way, but none of them can meet the requirements of the people. This, however, is a useful reserve and can be beautified extremely. 63. Do you consider this 2,000 acres or 3,000 acres of land on Brown Eiver is accessible ?—.

I.—sb

24

That Brown River is a picturesque gully absolutely inaccessible to any human being who has not the feet of a cat. It is a beautiful reserve for those who can manage to get at it. 64. Do you know it is nearly two miles from the bottom of the hill down to the main road. When you get into the Brown you go down it for a mile and a half on a level ?—So far as that includes flat land it is a very good thing. 65. It is an important reserve from the Marlborough point of view; and for those who do not know what has been done it would be well to enlighten them ?—lt is of no earthly use—a reserve of 2,000 or 3,000 acres. 66. You are an expert boatman. Do not you consider the Sounds accessible?— Yes, I do; but very out of the way. Mr. J. H. Cock, of Nelson, made a statement and was examined. Mr. Cock : I am one of the deputation here simply on public grounds. If I consulted my personal interests they would be in opening up this sawmilling district. But I tried to look at a higher consideration than that, and to bear in mind that there is a higher expediency and a higher justice in preserving this fine block. We must remember that for some reason or other not known to ourselves the land has been reserved up to the present time. lam told it was reserved through a petition which Messrs. Brownlee were very instrumental in circulating, requesting Government some ten years ago to preserve these blocks for settlement. I have personally known people who applied for blocks of land for their sons from out of it, but they were told it was reserved. The land has been preserved until this present critical point, and until- there is only this last reserve, as I call this, in these two fastnesses. It is extensive, it is of good timber, and it is accessible ; and that is why we want it to be preserved. Certainly in these last few years the feeling in regard to the country has been changed, and a sentiment has arisen about these places. We have seen picnic parties encamping about there on every holiday, and it is owing to the growing feeling in that direction that we must have at least a few spots in New Zealand reserved, and in places accessible to the people. The final cutting-out of this timber is a very serious matter. It has been impressed upon us of late years very vividly, not because of the sawmills, but because we have lost block after block of timber by its exposure to sawmilling and fire. There is nothing much to be added to what has been said by Mr. Trask and Mr. Fell. Upon the general and higher sentimental ground largely we seek to preserve this block. I might also mention to the Committee that Messrs. Brownlee have been cutting vigorously for twenty-five years in this district. Their line has been projected greatly into the bush, and probably each line of extension has paid for itself. It is admitted by competent men that there are no other portions of bush of equal character in our district. This gives it a public and general interest. The tram-line is, according to my experience, a better built tramway than usual. It carries light locomotive traffic and things of that sort, and, no doubt, may some day become a link in communication between Blenheim and that valley, and between Blenheim and other places. It would have its value so far as its works and cuttings and embankments were concerned even in a larger scheme. But that does not touch upon the issue which we have come upon. That is to reserve for such purposes as we have set forth and for the shelter of the district this block of land. I have a very strong enthusiasm over the matter, which is shared by a large number of the thinking public in our district. We come here with a very enthusiastic backing in the shape of public meetings and the signature of 4,000 adults to our petition. As it is a matter of serious consideration, we think these voices should be heard—and heard with effect. 67. Mr. Mills] Have you visited these valleys ?—I have been at the Croiselles and the other end; I have never been through either valley. 68. Have you any knowledge about the extent of land which will be closed up ? —Only on information. lam told about 12,000 or 14,000 acres of the better class of timbered land, leaving out the hillsides and spurs. 69. Are there any other parts of the Pelorus district, according to your knowledge, accessible for getting timber ?—I think there is timber in the Wakamarina. 70. You have not been there ? —Yes I hay times. 71. But it is not near? —You have to go from six to seven miles by a branch line. 72. What effect, if this reserve is closed, will it have on the timber industry of Marlborough? —I consider they will go on cutting timber for years. 1 think there is an inevitable rise of timber coming on, and that with the growing scarcity, timber will continue to be cut. There will be a rise in timber and a rise in the block that has been reserved. 73. Are you aware that so far as the Marlborough people are concerned it is not a question of not creating a reserve, but whether we cannot lay off other suitable blocks to preserve the fauna and flora of the country, and still go on with the sawmilling industry ? —Yes, I have no doubt that is the view taken by the sawmilling people. 74. That is the opinion of the Marlborough community. Have you ever been in the Pelorus Valley up above the bridge ? —About half a mile up the river. 75. Can you tell us anything about the timber?—No, I could not say much. 76. Would you be surprised if there were equally large and valuable timber up the Pelorus Valley but not so thick?— That is out of the area. We do not object to its being cut. It is almost as accessible as coming up the Opouri and Eai for your sawmilling industry. 77. But is not it as accessible for tourists as the others?—No, because we have a waterway for the Opouri and Eonga. 78. Do you know the height of both saddles between these two places ?—I cannot tell you ; I think they are low saddles. I was there with Mr. Seymour, who took the levels. Mr. Seymour's level was 800 ft. for the one over the Croiselles, and for the one going from the Opouri to Harvest Bay in Tennyson Inlet is 1,300 ft,

25

I.—sb

79. Have you considered that this area if reserved would seriously injure the timber industry of Marlborough, and therefore be a serious injury to a great number of people who reside there ?—I do not think it would be so serious as perhaps you think. Settlement has already taken place on the blocks cut up. The industry of Marlborough is a limited industry in Havelock. It is a very small portion of the industry in Marlborough, which is mainly farming and pastoral. I think it is a very temporary matter. 80. Do you know that the Wairau and even Picton draw their timber supplies from this district ?—I understand not from your district, but from another district—viz., Omalutu. 81. Would you be surprised to know that there are six big wagons constantly bringing timber to the Wairau and Havelock and taking back an interchange?— That is very likely. 82. Mr. J. W. Thomson] You say this is a reserve ?—Yes. 83. For what purpose was it reserved ?—No purpose, except perhaps that it was reserved for sawmilling upon a petition sent in about thirteen or fourteen years ago. 84. You said Mr. Brownlee tried to get it ?—Certainly, I think he had a large interest in the petition. 85. Very largely, Mr. Brownlee ?—Yes. The interests of others were added, but the influence of Brownlee was paramount. 86. Mr. Mills] I have a copy of the petition, and I can assure you it was not Mr. Brownlee. Dr. Cleghorn, of Blenheim, stated, — I have no information to give except as to the feelings in Blenheim on the matter—and they are very nearly neutral. The people recognise that reserves so far away from Blenheim are not more important to them than to the rest of the colony. They all seem to consider it a good thing, but not of very much importance to themselves, very much in the same way as the sawmill in the matter of Blenheim itself is of no importance to Blenheim. Brownlee's are so far away that so far as the trade goes there it is a matter of very small importance. The people there feel that the time has gone by for them to get a local forest reserve, and that this is a mere colonial question that does not interest them very much. That is all I can tell you. Mr. H. Baigent made a statement, and was examined. Mr. Baigent: I come here with considerable diffidence, from the fact that the gentleman most affected by the position —Mr. Brownlee—is in the same line of business as myself. lam a sawmiller, and I hope from my taking part in the matter I may not be accused of interested motives. I have no such feeling. I respect Mr. Brownlee very much, and I assure you the Nelson public have no desire to affect Mr. Brownlee's interest in any adverse way. We were given to understand that there was a very large area of bush in the Wakamarina available. However, the action we take would be simply turning him for his supply to another portion of bush without much injuring him. I was asked to come here because it was considered that as an old mill-hand—my father built the first sawmill in the Province of Nelson, in 1846, and I have continued the trade myself since I have lived to see useful forests levelled and cleared away ; and I deeply regret that the Government did not in the early days preserve more tracts of bush land. There is now not a considerable block left anywhere in the neighbourhood of Nelson. Everywhere I have seen around the bush has been mutilated. In some places the timber is quite inaccessible to the sawmills, and the result is they chop it down-and burn it. There have been millions of feet of timber destroyed there simply because it was not accessible to the sawmillers. In the Takaka Valley all the large portions of bush have been destroyed, as also in Motueka, Dovedale and the whole district. Ido not know one large portion of bush which would compare in the slightest degree with the block recommended. This block is best from every point of view, being accessible from two directions. There is not any other block anywhere in the Nelson Province more suitable than the Opouri and Eonga Valleys. I know some reserves in the Waimea. There is one reserve that is comprised of birch hills that are very poor and very stunted. I happen to know it personally, because I have a quantity of land adjoining it. The property is really exceedingly poor. I might illustrate this from the fact that in my father's day he owned property in front, and we had some difficulty in selling it, and it was ultimately sold on deferred-payment lease. One section was under 2s. an acre. The fires have destroyed a very large area of this hilly bush. The fire seems to run along the bush ridges—in fact, I have known one fire travel eighteen miles and pass through great portions of reserves. For reservation there is no scenic beauty about it whatever, nor is there food for bird life. There is only one other—up the Motueka Valley in the high mountains —but that will not be useful for some time to come. The Maungatapu is another reserve, but that is reserved for the waterworks. 87. Mr. Mills] Have you been through this bush?—l have not been up the Eonga or the Opouri. 88. Do not you think, as the first effort towards the protection of timber throughout New Zealand, it would be a good thing to raise tithes on it all over New Zealand ?—ln the Collingwood district at the present time they are giving away the timber. Mr. Allen, of Collingwood, said he had given away 30 acres of rata timber recently. 89. But as a practical sawmiller do not you think that apart from that it would tend to preserve the timber if the Government were to put a tithe on it? I am speaking of the colony generally. Do not you think it would be the first effort to preserve the timber if the Government placed more value on it ?—Certainly, I think it would. 90. What do you consider a fair average for heavily timbered land per acre ? Ido not think I can answer that question. As a rule, you will find perhaps two or three acres heavily timbered, and perhaps 20 acres lightly timbered. 91. But what would you consider the average of this very heavily timbered land ?—I could not tell without going specially to see it. 4r—l. sb.

I.—sb

26

92. Can you tell the Committee what your timbered land has averaged per acre ? —You might find 20 acres in good bush, and you might find a very large area inferior. You want to spring an average. 93. I thought as a practical sawmiller you would be able to give us a good idea. Generally, you can tell what good bush land turns out ?—lf I saw the bush I could tell. You might get 20,000 ft., 50,000 ft., 60,000 ft.; in fact, I have had 100,000 ft. per acre. 94. Mr. Flatman] Do you know how much timber Mr. Brownlee cuts? —He used to cut from 8,000 ft. to 9,000 ft. a day. 95. Do you know this bush in question ? —I have not been on it myself. 96. You do not know sufficient of it as to how much Mr. Brownlee would estimate to cut it out with his plant?—l do not know. I have got two estimates —one of 9,000 acres, one of 5,000 acres. 97. Mr. Wason] It was stated by one of the previous witnesses that cutting this timber would employ about 150 men for four years. How many men would be employed in a mill of the size of the present sawmill ? —About sixteen or eighteen men. I usually employ about nine or ten men in a mill, but mine is smaller. 98. Then twenty men in Mr. Brownlee's mill would be an outside number?— Yes, I suppose. 99. So that to employ 150 men we should need about seven mills going?— Yes. Mr. Trash : It has been represented here that six mills would be needed. Mr. Baigent : In opening this land they would all have to use the same line. That would be absolutely necessary, and of course if I studied my own interest in the matter I should say, Open the land all round because I want timber. 100. Mr. Wason (to witness).] Is there any scarcity of timber in Nelson now ?—No, not at the present time. 101. What is the price of timber at the wharf ?—About ss. 102. Does there seem to you a pretty fair supply as regards the timber? —I think the supply will exist for nine or ten years. Mr. P. B. Adams, of Nelson, made a statement, and was examined. Mr. Adams : I appear here as a colonist, and one born in New Zealand, who takes great interest in our native bush. For years and years I have always taken a great interest in forest conservation and in preserving the beauty of our natural scenery. But during the greater part of my latter years I have seen many fine spots destroyed. There has been the continual object of our hills torn by fire. Now very little of the scenery exists surrounding Nelson like it was when I was a boy. Of late years it has been my practice to go down to these identical valleys, take a tent, and camp there for two or three months ; so that I have got to know them very intimately. There is no finer bush land exists, I think, or has existed, in the South Island than exists at the present moment in these two valleys. It is diversified bush. There is the matai, the rimu, the miro, the rata, the birch, and all other kinds of fine timber. The Pelorus Valley is very similar, but that has been almost denuded. The reason why we want this particular piece set apart and reserved is that it is the last remaining block left; and Messrs. Mills and Brownlee must honestly admit it is most lovely typical bush. That is the reason why I take such a keen interest in this matter. This bush offers the very thing that is wanted for a natural reserve. The coach-road itself is within a mile of the junction of the two streams that come from it, and within a mile and a half of the most accessible point of approach to these valleys. The valleys themselves are flat and between them run nothing but a stunted line of spurs. They are surrounded by a basin of mountains on all sides, and the Eai Eiver runs out. But the only possible approach is by the river that comes into them. It comes in almost by a natural hole. If these valleys are left intact, without sawmilling or settlement, I vouch that they cannot be burnt. It is contrary to experience and everything else that fires will go over and down. But once approached by sawmill I believe they must be destroyed as other valleys have been destroyed everywhere else. I may say I have no axe to grind in this matter; I am not wishing to have these valleys preserved from personally interested motives. When we first agitated about it in Nelson, we did so on the ground of its being of general interest to the two provinces; but, unfortunately, when we had started the subject, the people of Marlborough, on the other side, attempted to bring about the old jealousy. There are no provincial districts now, and the forests of New Zealand—whether in Nelson or anywhere else —belong to the colony. The question of royalties has been laid stress upon by the opposition petition ; but the royalties of the district must go to the general funds, and no one district will benefit. I was sorry to see that old provincial jealousy at all. The people, however, who are opposing us are the sawmillers, and there is only one sawmiller down there, and that is Mr. Brownlee. They have cut out the Kaituna Valley, and had an absolute •monopoly for thirty years. When I was quite a boy Brownlee was the first sawmiller in Havelock who started there. The whole of the Pelorus from Havelock have been cut by Messrs. Brownlee and Co.'s mills. Mr. Mills : That is wrong; there were other sawmillers. Mr. Adams (continuing) : I state without fear of contradiction these are the people who are opposing it. They may say they want land for settlement and all that sort of thing, but that is not so : they do not want it. They want to put this extra money into full pockets. They have made a jolly good thing out of it, and they want more. Starborough has as much as 35,000 acres of beautiful agricultural land. If they want this land for settlement what is it ? It is magnificent forest timber. It would take a settler a lifetime to get rid of the timber and more than a lifetime to get rid of the stumps. It would be hard work in his life, and only a poor home for his children. There is plenty of land—of valuable land—without this. It is simply drawing a herring across the track. Of course, the Committee know there are four thousand signatures on this petition. There are many more petitions yet to come in, and I should not be at all surprised that there are many more signatures to come in. On the other side, the people who have signed are absolutely dis-

27

I.—sb

interested; and I challenge Mr. Mills to say the people on the other side are interested in it to a great degree. There was a general upheaval of feeling in Nelson at the time, and the people are all anxious for it; and lam sure every right-minded person in the colony must see that the time has come for making such a reserve, and that he should get these valleys reserved for ever. I take it they are now included in the State forest reserves. 103. Mr. Mills.] But the Eonga is not a State forest reserve? —Speaking subject to contradiction, about ten or twelve years ago there was an agitation to get these valleys for settlement. Petitions were sent round Nelson, and many people signed. I might have signed it myself for all I know. Many did sign it, because they wanted laud for settlement. When the petition was sent in they could not get the land for settlement. I know of fifteen men who clubbed together to get 300 acres each, and by ballot. It is a matter of history that Brownlee immediately instituted a petition on the other side, and finally got this identical Opouri Block, and I think the Eonga also, and the other block shut up for a forest reserve. 103 a. Did they not want it for a special settlement ?—Yes, they did—just as much as they do so now. But it does not suit Messrs. Brownlee and Co. at the present day after they have made their tramway and are the only people who can attach that timber. Now they say, " Now is the time for getting it." I can scarcely credit it that they could think the public can be so blind as not to see through this. A wave of indignation from one end of the colony to the other ought to arise over such an attempt being made. lam not in a position to prove it absolutely true, but no doubt Mr. Graham could find everything correct, and I have no doubt it could be found out that everything I stated was correct. Now, our people are anxious that every thing that should be reserved should be made quite suitable and accessible. This area can be proved one of the most suitable possible reserves for the Nelson and Marlborough people. Now, referring to the native birds, people wonder why they do not see our native birds. They have left our towns and open settlements, and have had to go back where they can get shelter. I may say that the reason I have had a tent in these valleys for months is because of shooting. I want these valleys to be reserved that they shall be closed against any shooting. It is the last home of our native pigeon. There is no food in the South or in the North Island for them when once you destroy this block. All the food for our native pigeon and the other native birds will be destroyed. Now, our own acclimatisation societies have spent thousands of pounds on importing birds. But I say our own native birds should be protected in a suitable reserve—and this is the last suitable home in the North or South Islands. That is all very well, you say, but there are other reserves besides this. Oh yes, you have lots of reserves of a few hundred acres here and there. But they are absolutely useless for birds. We must have a large block with plenty of food for the sustenance of our birds. The reason this bush is teeming with pigeons is because there is no other bush to go to. The other side at the head of the Pelorus would do equally well, but the accessible argument is against it. This is on the coach-road, but the Upper Pelorus would not be so. Mr. Mills would have us to believe there is any amount of timber in the Upper Pelorus. There is a good deal of rimu and a little of other good sorts. Of course, it is no use begging the question that Brownlee and Co. are interested in this, for here is a petition asking that the timber should be given up to be destroyed. I have also heard it stated that if they do not get this timber they will have to close in about four years. I do not care about that at all, because I consider that the interests of the New Zealand people and their posterity are far more important than the interests of one man. The better the witnesses the better they prove it, and the more valuable the reserve the greater the reason why we should wish it retained for our children's children. -It is the showing of what our New Zealand forests once were. It is no good preserving patches of bush ; we must have a good reserve. If we do preserve this bush as a national park a railway must pass along that coach-road. Let us picture what this place would be a hundred years hence when all the other forests have gone. What a recreation-ground for our children's children, and what a monument of their fathers' forethought. I trust the Committee will give the question —being as it is a matter of colonial importance —the consideration that it deserves. Any smaller block will be insufficient to provide food and shelter for our birds and insufficient for making a national park. There is one more matter —that is, the climatic point of view. We all know that bush brings rain. Now, I never in my experience—and I have lived in New Zealand more or less all my life—l have never known such a dry summer as we experienced in Nelson district last year ; and I attribute that to the denudation of all our hills round from bush. At one time it was one continuous forest from Nelson to the Kaituna Valley. A great deal of that forest has been cut out now. Of the vast bush that once existed very few acres now exist, and out of those few acres we have a right to ask that in the interests of the community some of it should be retained. 104. Mr. Mills.] lam glad you and I now agree concerning this bush. You recollect a petition being sent round asking for this land to be cut up?— Yes, but times have changed since then. A large portion of it had been touched by fires ; large burns existed, and those were attributed to sawmillers. What I signed then I signed in the interests of the settlement. 105. Of course, I understand that; but I want the Committee to understand that at that time I was preserving the bush, and I had a different opinion—that is all. I fought very hard against that land being cut up? —You do not know that I did sign. Probably if I was asked in those days I should have signed. 106. Mr. Mills (to the Chairman) : Mr. Adams seems to be putting before the Committee that I am leading counsel for Mr. Brownlee. I have taken up this position "on far higher grounds. I have only to refer to the big pile of documents the Lands Department have put in and you will see on every page I have done all I possibly could to preserve this land and prevent its being wasted. I have done my utmost to preserve this forest; and I state before the Committee that it was not Mr. Brownlee at all that got it closed up. I telegraphed immediately about it, asking if Government allowed those settled there any permission to destroy this timber. (To witness) : You have been through both valleys, Mr. Adams? —Yes, I know them well.

I.—sb

28

107. Were you aware when you started this petition of the extent of land in the two valleys ?— I reckoned from 12,000 to 15,000 acres, including the tops of the hills and barren spurs—including what I call the basin. It was stated in a meeting, and I indorse it. If there had been twice that area it was not too little an area to be asked for. 108. Do you know the value of that land? —A very valuable estate —infinitely more valuable in a hundred years' time than it is now. 109. Do you think Marlborough could afford to close this valuable land from sawmilling and settlement ?—I do, because there is a report on the table, from which Mr. Fell has cited, in which Mr. Cadman says that in the Wakamarina alone there are £100,000 of royalties. You have besides that the Upper Pelorus, the Pelorus at the back of Cooper's, you have the Alfred, and a very large block of land still in the Eai Valley. I say, there is still plenty of timber obtainable —of course, at a little cost —to keep Marlborough going for years. 110. Do you not think that these blocks you now refer to will preserve the native birds?— I know that they will not. The pigeon will not live in them, the weka and the ordinary kiwi will not live there. 111. Do not you think this bush country in the Upper Pelorus would do for them?— Only in part. 112. Do you think the other valleys should be preserved as well?— No. 113. Do not you think one block would be sufficient and not both valleys?—No, I do not think so. You taxed me with signing that petition to throw this land open for settlement. In those days you were anxious that it should be preserved. Mr. Mills : The reason why I was so anxious was this : I knew the value of this land when a member of the Provincial Council, and we got Government to preserve that forest. The line was surveyed, and the Government voted £14,000 to construct the tramway. And that is how I came to settle in Havelock. Eev. F. A. Bennet, a Maori clergyman of the Anglican Church, made a statement and was examined. Mr. Bennet: You have heard very strong appeals made by my fellows who have come to represent Nelson in deputation. It is therefore not necessary for me to add to the remarks they have made about the scenic beauty and general magnificence of these two valleys. I know these two valleys well. Especially the Eonga I know very intimately, having passed through it dozens and dozens of times, and I can indorse every remark made with reference to its beauty. I stand here, however, to represent the Maoris of the district. I was asked by the Natives to use what influence I could to see that their interests were also represented on this Committee. There is at the very end —the Croiselles end—of this valley a Maori pa with about a hundred Natives settled there. They are living in a primitive style, and depend very greatly for their sustenance and support upon natural products. For instance, the land they have had has.so far not been well cultivated. They have not been taught cultivation. They are a very primitive people and have been altogether out of the way of the influence of the pakeha. They hope that that bush will be preserved. The native birds might be kept there so that they were sure of getting something at any rate from the products of those birds, shooting the pigeons and other birds when they came outside. A Native (a Mr. Martin) was also very desirous that the birds should be preserved in this reserve, and, in fact, every man at Whangarai signed the petition. It is not necessary for me to add anything else except that you see for yourselves the feeling that there is existing in Nelson. We have given expression to that feeling; and I might say the Native feeling in the matter is just as strong as the English feeling. My position is this : The Eev. F. W. Chatterton, clergyman of the Anglican Church in Nelson, was very anxious to help in this deputation, but having a very important engagement, and one impossible to put off, he was unable to come, and I was asked to come in his place to give expression to the feeling of the Maoris in the matter. 114. Mr. Mills] Are you aware that these Natives only recently sold all their own timber off the valleys of which we have been speaking ?—I know the land myself. It is stunted bush, if there is any, on the scenic side, and away from these valleys. 115. You are aware there has been a sawmill working for four or five years in the Okiwi (?) Valley ? You are aware they sold all the timber off their land within the last two years ?—No, I do not know that. 116. Are you aware that if this petition is granted no Native will be able to kill a bird in that bush, and still you are against this petition? —Yes, they are all aware of it. We know we are to use that valley as a sanctuary, and that they will breed there and fly out. 117. The Maoris quite understand that there would be no shooting in the valleys ?—Yes.

Tuesday, 16th August, 1898. Hon. A. J. Cadman examined. 1. The Chairman] Would you tell the Committee what you know of this matter?—J do not know that I can tell you anything more than is in print now. I gave some evidence in this matter two or three years ago, and my opinion has not altered. 2. We have that evidence in print ?—Yes. The only question is that, so far as the value of the timber is concerned, there is no doubt in my mind that timber is increasing in value year by year. As far as the royalties are concerned, I think they should be increased in the colony. Ido not know that I can say any more. The timber is naturally getting scarce adjacent to railway-lines and seaports in all parts of the colony, and higher prices are being obtained for it. When 2s. is put on the market-price of timber I think the Government should get an extra 3d. as royalty.

29

I.—sb

Eoyalties have been doubled in some parts to 6d., and I know that, so far as kauri up North is concerned, it has gone up in several cases from 6d. to Is. 6d. The price of totara will stand 25., because I think the market-price of totara will average from 16s. to 19s.—that is, heart of totara—and I think the State, in a case of that sort, should get a fair proportion of the increase in the marketvalue. This timber over at Eai Valley, there is no doubt, is very close to a market, and if handled properly lam sure would pay well to every one concerned. The land I saw there seemed fairly good, and the clearing of the land would naturally enhance its value if it was cleared systematically. From what I saw then—l do not know what has been done since—l should say timber in that district would pay well for all the outlay intended originally—or, rather, the proposals that were offered in respect of acquiring a tramway from Brownlee and Co. There is another question worthy of consideration, I think: in the course of time—it may not be for years to come—the railway will connect with Nelson; and as far as I can see this is the only spot where you could put a railway without going to the cost of exceedingly expensive works. So far as the tramway itself is concerned, I do not think there is very much value to be placed on the rails and things of that sort, but the earthwork will stand there for some time. The bridge I saw over the river was a poor one. Ido not know that I can say anything more. 3. Mr. Mills] You recollect being in the Eai Valley when we went there going from Nelson? —Yes. 4. Do you not think it would be suicidal to our timber interest if a reserve were made of all that timber in order to make it into a park? —There are two ways of looking at it: one would be to consider whether you are going to conserve the timber for all time; but I feel sure it is only a question of a very short time when that timber will become very valuable. We might conserve the timber in the South Island, but in the North Island it is almost impossible on account of fires. 5. But do you not think it is too valuable an asset to set aside for what the Nelson people call a national park ?—lf you are going to set it aside for all time, it is a big thing to put on one side, no doubt. I think, myself, it is only a question of time when that timber will be demanded, as timber gets scarce in other parts of the colony; and at the rate it is being slaughtered I think the time is not far off when we shall have to import timber. 6. Is there not a railway up North called the Kaihu Valley Eailway ? —Yes. 7. Does that not bring timber out ?—lt does nothing else. 8. Is it paying well now ?—lt paid last year about 9 per cent. Of course, it is all right so long as there is plenty of timber there, and there will be for some years. 9. From what you saw of the district, do you think there will be any backward traffic for the Wakamarina diggers and others ?—There is no doubt about that. If there is railway communication, all provisions will go up that line, I think. 10. And in the general interest of the public, do you not think that if the Government acquire that tramway it will break down any monopoly that exists ? —I am quite satisfied that if the Crown commands the line of tramway there would probably be half a dozen sawmills put up in that direction. The people who have the tramway now have the key to the whole place. So long as they keep that they can dictate terms to anybody. They have the key to the position, and have spent a large sum of money in getting it. Mr. James McKerrow, Chairman, Land Purchase Board, made a statement, and was examined. Mr. McKerrow: I have been several times travelling in the Eai Valley. I have never been actually into the forest to see the nature of the timber except on my first visit. There was no road there at all, and I went up to the Eai Valley principally with the object of seeing as to the roadline. However, when in the Land Department, I had to get reports on the forest from the officers of the department, and I have recently read up the reports and evidence given before this Committee some two or three years ago, and from these I deduce that there is in the Eai Valley and Ronga Valley and the other tributaries some 150,000,000 superficial feet of timber, principally rimu, matai, kahikatea or white-pine, and some totara. With regard to the question of opening up this forest.it is clear to any one who visits the district that it can only be done by means of a tramway or railway, because the road, although very good, is distant from a port some sixteen, eighteen, or twenty miles, and that, of course, by cart traffic would be prohibitive in the keen competition that now exists in the timber trade. The question then arises, would it be worth while to construct a railway or tramway to the upper portion of this valley. Of that I have some doubt. My belief is that it would pay a company to do so which had the right over an extended period of cutting timber from the forest. My reasons are that a private company would make a tramway or railway much cheaper than the Government, for the reason that the company would adopt makeshift expedients that would answer their purpose well enough ; but if the Government were to undertake it it would then become a public work and be available for public traffic. It would then require to be under regulations according to the Public Works Act, and have to be of sufficient stability to pass the public inspection to receive the certificate that it was safe and usable by the public. I observe in what I have been reading and from what I have heard from Mr. Cadman, that it is contemplated that this is to form part of a through railway-line between Blenheim and Nelson. As I think the necessity for such a railway is so very remote, I should say to the Committee that this is a matter which need not enter into their consideration. To begin with, the construction of such a railway would be very expensive. You have two dividing ranges to cross—the Eai Saddle, which is over 1,000 ft. above sea-level, also the Wangamoa Saddle—and both to tunnel through ; and, moreover, supposing the railway was made, I cannot see that there would be any traffic to feed the railway as between Blenheim and Nelson. The country along the route is mostly a series of hills and narrow valleys that, even if they were all under settlement, would not support a very large population ; and, having regard to the greater demands and greater necessities for railways in other parts of the colony, I cannot see

I.—sb

30

that a railway between Blenheim and Nelson could be seriously considered for a very long time. With regard to the question of a national park, that, I tbink, also is a matter which I would advise the Committee is not worthy of much consideration. The Nelson people, I am aware, have forwarded a petition on the subject, no doubt more with a patriotic idea of conserving the beauties of New Zealand than for any other object, because the Bai Valley—or the part which they wish to conserve —will be thirty miles away from Nelson by the main road. Then there is the further consideration that timber is a decreasing quantity in New Zealand, unfortunately so much of it having been destroyed by the fires of the settlers and by accidental fires, so that every day it is becoming more valuable ; and, in my opinion, this timber, sooner or later, if not destroyed by fire, must be brought to market to meet the wants of the colony. But there need be no great hurry about this, because on the west coast of the Middle Island they are converting timber very rapidly and bringing it to the market, and in several other places, to wit, the Forty-mile Bush in the Wellington Province. These districts being served by railways, while the supply lasts at these accessible places, there need be no great hurry in tapping such forests as those at the head of the Bai Valley. At the same time, the fact has to be borne in mind that Brownlee and Co. have a tramway some twelve miles through the middle of this valley, and it only requires some six or seven miles more to reach the main body of this estimated 150,000,000 ft. of timber : so that there are two courses which seem open —one would be to offer Brownlee and Co. some security of tenure over a sufficient portion of the forest to induce them to extend this tramway at their own expense; and the other course would be, as has been proposed, to purchase the tramway from Brownlee and Co. and extend it to the main body. That, no doubt, would cause the timber to be much sooner converted than under a private company, for the reason that, instead of one mill getting the timber, there would be several mills started. But having regard to what has already been stated with respect to the fast-diminishing store of timber in the colony, I do not think it would be wise to stimulate —if I may so put it—the destruction or conversion of this timber : in other words, it would be better to conserve it so as to let it serve over a much longer time. It has also been mentioned that if the timber was once off the ground—or, rather, cut off by the sawmiller —the land would be soon fit for settlement. That is true, but it has to be borne in mind that the extent of the land is not very great. According to the reports of the late Commissioner of Crown Lands, Mr. Weetman, and the report of the present Crown Lands Banger—both officers, I can assure the Commttee, are very reliable men—the extent was 6,000 acres of flat land and about 10,000 acres of hillside land that contains marketable timber. There are from 16,000 to 20,000 acres of land that could be settled partly by agricultural occupation and partly by grazing on the hillsides. There is a rim of still higher land above this, about 20,000 acres, most of which is under birch. This birch-timber is also valuable for some purposes, although it would not bear much cost in the way of transit. Still, it is valuable. It is used in the districts for various purposes ; but if cleared the land would be rather poor. Of course, birch invariably occurs on high land, and on cold, poor land, and I believe it would be unwise to clear this even for the sake of pasture. The elevation is also very high, from 1,000 ft. up to 3,000 ft., the latter being the very highest elevation. There is just one other remark, which I forgot to make in the proper place, with regard to the railway, and that is, that if the Government took the matter in hand they would have to extend the railway from Brownlee's mill down to the wharf. That would be about a mile, but there would be no unusual difficulty in doing that. With the increased output there would also require to be an extension of the jetty there at present, so as to give wharfage-accommodation. I do not think I need say any more. 11. Mr. Mills.] Do you think the time has arrived when the royalties over all our timber land should be increased ?—I think so. I may inform the Committee that they have been increased lately. I have obtained the rates here. I was asking Mr. Barron about them, and he informs me that since January last they have been nearly doubled. I am strongly of opinion that higher rates should be exacted, for two reasons : one is that the State should have some revenue from its natural resources, and the other reason is that the raising of the price would, no doubt, tend to retaining the forests. 12. I think the rise referred to is from 3d. to 6d.?—Yes. Mr. Barron tells me that Brownlee was paying 3d., but now he will have to pay 6d. He is not cutting from the Crown at present. 13. Generally speaking, you think it should be raised ?—Yes. It would really be the same for all. The effect would be this : that every one who built a house would have to pay a few pounds or so more. It would simply be levying a tax on all buildings ; but I think it would be a wise thing to raise the rates. At the present moment there is a cut-throat competition going on. Baising the rate would probably not stop that; but the timber is being converted at such a rate that it cannot last very long. 14. With reference to the statement about working the tramway if it was acquired by the Government, do you not think the matter of its paying or not would depend a good deal upon the price at which they could acquire it ?—Yes, partly ; but it would cost a good deal to put in order and extend it. I was reading Mr. Wilson's estimate, and also Mr. Lowe's, and I was talking to Mr. Bonayne this morning, and I think Mr. Wilson has very much underestimated the cost. Mr. Lowe is an extremely reliable man, and he makes it very much more than Mr. Wilson. Mr. Lowe has not seen the place, and Mr. Wilson has, but Mr. Lowe's report is founded on the facts that Mr. Wilson gives. 15. The strong feeling in the district is to break down the monopoly of any one man, and from Havelock up to Pelorus the land is settled, and it is thought there is a good deal of traffic for back freights?— With regard to monopoly, it would not be a monopoly even supposing the company had the whole of the valley for the next twenty years, because there are so many other timber-fields in the colony. The mills in the Bai Valley would have to sell the timber in the market, and would have to take the market-price. It might be a monopoly as regards the district, but not so far as the colony is concerned.

31

I.—sb

16. Hon. Mr. Bolleston] Is there a good deal of other timber in the Sounds and neighbouring districts ?—Yes. 17. There is no immediate necessity for the opening-up of this timber ?—None. At the same time, I would like to mention that it would be very undesirable that Brownlee and Co. should stop. I understand that he says that he has taken the tramway now so far, and will get out all the timber in his own freehold within the next year or two, and that, unless some concession is given to him, it is not worth his while to take the tramway on, because, before getting to the timber, he would have to take his tramway six miles further. 18. Practically it would give him a monopoly of this valley ?—Yes ; he has that now. 19. He has practically got what we call a pre-emptive right over the whole thing if he holds the tramway?— That is so. But there could be no harm in that providing he would pay the royalties, and would not be allowed to rush into the forest and pick out a tree here and a tree there. Under the regulations of the department now, if a man wishes to start a sawmill in any particular forest, there are 800 acres marked out for him, but he is not allowed to cut it indiscriminately. It was in lots of 200 acres in my time, and a man had to take all there was in each 200 acres in turn before taking a stick'out of any other portion that was allotted to him; and in any ordinary forest it is worth while for a man to do that. Brownlee and Co. have got a very extensive mill, and have got this tramway in addition, and I think it would be quite reasonable, if they would undertake to extend the tramway up to this forest, that they should have a much larger area set apart with a definite time given them to cut it out; and, of course, to forfeit the right if they shepherded the thing. The regulations, of course, provide for this. Were it my own property I would try and arrange with Brownlee and Co. to carry on. 20. There would be a considerable difficulty in the Government making the tramway and arranging with other mills ?—There is only one mill now, but I think there would be several mills established at once if that were done. 21. And that would mean the quick destruction of the forest?— Yes. 22. You do not think that quick destruction advisable ?—I think it would be unwise. I look upon the timber and coal of the colony, and also the tussock grasses in Otago and Canterbury, as the natural wealth of the colony; and we must remember that we have children and grandchildren to come after us, and we ought to leave something for them. As the Maoris say,.we should not " eat it all "in our time. I think we should husband these great natural resources that once gone we never can have again. 23. If you had a whole lot of pieces of stray forest, the least advantageous, and with the least possibility of securing them from fire, would you not conserve your best timber, particularly in view of the fact that its value is largely enhanced over a course of years ?—I would husband it most carefully. 24. Then, if this tramway is to be gone on with by Brownlee and Co. it means that the forest would be destroyed rapidly?—No; it must be gradual. If the Government made the railway up to it the destruction would be very rapid; but if Brownlee and Co., or anyone company gets it, the destruction would not be so very rapid, because they would have just the one mill. 25. Would it be under the Forest Department or Lands Department ?—Under the Lands Department. 26. Why should not this be a piece of forest in the Forest Department, and husbanded according to the regulations?— There is scarcely such a thing existing as a Forest Department—it is the Lands Department really. You may call it a Forest Department, but it is only a subbranch, and is managed by the Lands Department. There was a reserve put over it, I think in Mr. Ballance's time, after the Nelson people wanted to establish a special settlement there. Mr. Ballance and I consulted over the matter, and we went over the Eai Valley ; he was very much convinced, after seeing it, that to put settlers there would simply be to burn this beautiful forest. We were told that a very small area of it had been cleared by a settler at enormous labour, many thousand feet of totara, rimu, and other timber destroyed, to simply grow a few acres of grass. Mr. Ballance was very much impressed with this ; and there was a Proclamation issued reserving the whole area, and one object of it was to fend off settlement; another object was to conserve the timber for a time until we could see what we could do with it. 27. If you once begin cutting a forest you must go on with it, or you increase the risk of fire ? —You do. 28. Therefore, if you are going to conserve a forest, would it not be better to reserve the whole ? —That would be the safest course; but I think you have to take into account that Brownlee and Co.'s mill has been in existence for a long time, and that it is the main source of keeping the local community going—one of the main sources, at all events. I think it would be very serious for the whole community if the mill were stopped. 29. Still, the timber will go sooner or later, and they will have to disperse themselves somewhere ?—Yes. 30. When the timber goes, clearly grass land would not hold men like timber land ?—No. 31. You would reserve it absolutely from settlement?—l would not allow a single settler there until the timber is cut out. I would be most decided on that point. 32. You do not advocate the purchase by the Government of the tramway?—l would like a very much more careful estimate made of the cost of the railway—it is a railway—before I could recommend the Government to enter into such an enterprise. The Kaihu Valley Eailway is paying wonderfully well just now, and will do for some years, but when the kauri-timber is all done the railway will be comparatively useless. 33. Mr. Mills] What concession did the Government give to the company to construct that railway ?—They did not give any concession, except a grant of land under the Eailways Construction and Land Act.

I.—sb

32

34. Mr. Flatman] I would like to know what kind of birch there is growing in the Eai Valley ? —Eed-birch and black-birch. .35. No white-birch ?—That is what the reports say—that is, the best class of red-birch. 36. You do not think it wise to fell that at all ?—No. 37. Would that answer the purposes of a national park instead of this other, or is it not suited on account of its elevation ? —That idea about the park is rather misleading. It is more for the scenery than for any natural place of recreation. It is so far away from the centres of population that Ido not think any one would go there for recreation —that is, to spend a few hours in the afternoon. For driving through by the coach on a summer's day it is probably the most beautiful drive in New Zealand, with a fine vista, noble trees, and with waterfalls here and there. It is an extremely beautiful drive. Some people go there simply for the sake of seeing the scenery. 38. You are thinking of the whole block in question?— Yes. 39. And the birch portion of it would not serve as well? —No, I do not think it would. 40. Mr. Mills] In speaking about this timber, I have heard remarks a great many times before the Committee about destroying the bush. Do you think that working the bush by sawmills is a destruction of the timber, or a national use ? —I think it is a national use. Unfortunately, it follows very often that destruction ensues, because in cutting the trees there is a litter of branches left, and in the summer time a fire is started and away the forest goes, as happened at Pahiatua and Oxford some little time ago ; so that the first tree that is felled is often the death-knell of the bush. The only way really to avoid this is not to cut a stick out of it. There are several bushes in the colony protected in that way. 41. There must be timber destroyed when we use it?—l think the proper word is " conversion." Unfortunately, as I say, destruction often follows.

EXHIBITS. EXHIBIT No. 1. Memorandum for the Under-Secretary, Public Works Department, re Eai Valley Tramwat. Public Works Department, District Office, Wellington, 15th June, 1897. I have the honour to report as follows on the Eai Valley Tramway : — General Description. The tramway commences at Messrs. Brownlee and Son's mill, which is situated a short distance out of Havelock, at the head of the Pelorus Sound, and follows up the south side of the Pelorus Eiver for 5 miles 49 chains, crossing en route the Wakamarina Eiver by a timber bridge, consisting of three spans of 12 ft., two spans of 13 ft., one span of 15 ft., and five undertrussed 32 ft. spans; 237 ft. in all. At 5 miles 49 chains the Pelorus Eiver is crossed by a bridge on timber-pile piers, consisting of two spans of 19 ft. timber stringers, and 10 spans of 33 ft. rolled-iron girders; 237 ft. in all. The north bank of the river is then followed till near the confluence of the Eai, which flows in from the north, and here the present tramway ends. Besides the large bridges mentioned above, there are in various places along the line 735 lineal feet of bridges and culverts, of spans ranging from 4 ft. to 23 ft., together with sundry box-drains. The line appears to have been formed to an original width of 10 ft. throughout the embankments and 11 ft. throughout the cuttings. The heaviest parts are in the rock-sideling cuttings at 70 chains and 1 mile 47 chains, and in a large breast-cutting at 4 miles 67 chains, from which a along embankment has been made. Generally, however, the tramway lies through flat country. On the south side of the river there is a good deal of embankment, whilst on the north side, above the Pelorus Bridge, the line shows but a very slight amount of either banks or cuttings, the rails being generally laid almost level with the surface. The permanent-way consists of about half a mile of 401b. rails, six miles of 30 lb. rails, and two miles and a half of lighter rails, which I calculate would weigh 25 lb. to the yard. There are nine sleepers to a 24 ft. rail, and the rails are secured to sleepers by means of dogs, and to one another by fish-plates and bolts. The land on which the tramway stands belongs to Mr. Brownlee, except for about three-quarters of a mile on the south side of the river, where it is Native reserve held on a long lease. There are about five miles of fencing in various places along the line, and I counted fourteen cattle-stops.. The steepest grade against the traffic is 1 in 30 for 10 chains. The tramway is now being formed for another three miles beyond its present termination. On this section there is a grade of lin 54 for 30 chains in length, the fall, however, being with the traffic. The price of this work is £3 15s. per chain, exclusive of the cost of rail-fastenings and ironwork for bridges. This is, however, considerably less than its actual value. The country through which the tramway would run from this point onward is, I should think from its appearance viewed from a distance, easy. The line of the tramway from its commencement to the Pelorus Bridge, has evidently been properly surveyed and constructed to levels carefully fixed from the bridge to the present termination of the constructed line. It wanders to an unnecessary extent, having been apparently laid out somewhat at random. The line could be straightened and shortened with advantage, and the grade of 1 in 54, already alluded to at the foot of the Eai Valley eased. Condition and Value. The cuttings are in reasonably good order. The embankments, though secure and substantial enough, have in many cases suffered a diminution in width, so that they would not hold ballast for sleepers without being added to. The smaller bridges, from the commencement of the tramway to the Pelorus Bridge, a distance of 5 miles 47 chains, in most cases show signs of decay, though many of the stringers have evidently been removed from time to time. Throughout the upper

33

I.—sb

portion of the line (i.e., above the Pelorus Bridge) the bridges are m good order, being of comparatively recent date—nearly all the timber used in the bridging has been of black-birch. The two large bridges are in good repair, considering the length of time they have been up—nine years in the case of the Wakamarina Bridge, and three years in the ease of the Pelorus Bridge. The Wakamarina Bridge seems quite secure from floods; the Pelorus Bridge, however, is barely high enough, and some few years back the superstructure was struck by timber, and a set down stream given to the bridge at that pier. The pier has been strengthened by driving a pile down stream and strutting from this to the bridge. This bridge should be raised. The rails, owing probably to the traffic on them being light, are in fair order. I estimate that 75 per cent, of the sleepers, from the commencement of the line to 5 miles 49 chains, are done, and require replacing ; but at the upper end of the tramway they are sound, having been a shorter time in use. There is no ballast on the line to speak of, and most of the sleepers being embedded in the formation no doubt causes them to rot sooner than they would otherwise do. If new sleepers are laid the line should be ballasted. The fencing is old, and in many places perished. Most of the stringers in the cattlestops are in good condition, but the stops themselves are in a different state of repair, many of the bars being out, and the drainage here, as elsewhere, being ineffectual. The box-drains and sidedrains could never have been sufficient to carry off the surface water, and have been allowed to run down so that they can hardly be said to exist. Parts of the line towards the lower end are occasionally flooded, the water being pounded back from the river to such an extent in high floods as in places to cover it. As on these occasions there is no current no serious damage results. Estimates of the present value of the line, of the cost of putting it in repair, and of the probable cost of extending through the Eonga and Opoure Valleys are attached. Probable Bevenue. Joining, as it does, the deep water of the Pelorus Sound with the valuable State forest in Eai, Eonga, and Opoure Valleys, the tramway in question is well placed for developing a timber trade. In order to set forth the position clearly it is necessary to explain that Messrs. Brownlee and Son have since the construction of the tramway been cutting timber solely on their own land, and have still, I understand, at the very least fifteen years' cutting before them. While their timber lasts it is hardly likely they will encourage other mills to commence operations, and as there is no tariff fixed by statute they have the key to the position, and the timber in the State Forest Eeserve is locked up ; and unless it is decided to lift the reserve and abandon the timber to its fate, allowing it to be destroyed, the land is also locked up, and no settlement is possible. This latter course is evidently wrong, and should, I think, be avoided at all hazards. The forest is far too valuable, even at the lowest computation, to make this the right thing to do. It should pay well to open up. To meet the requirements of the increased traffic entailed by carrying the line into the State Forest Reserve, it would be necessary to add to the rolling-stock, and the cost of so doing is accordingly set forth in the estimate attached. Taking the figures of the Surveyor-General, who has had the timber estimated, I attach hereto a statement of the probable revenue. In forming an estimate of the revenue I have been guided by the following principles : The revenue for other traffic, such as goods and passengers, I have taken on a low basis, as there is a good road not far off, which would doubtless be always largely used. I am supposing that it takes twenty years to work the timber out — i.e., that instead of five or six large mills starting work fewer or smaller mills are erected. This is, I think, a safer position to take up. Of course, if more mills are erected so much the better. I am also supposing that the tariff on the timber is Is. per hundred, which is somewhat lower than the regular tariff, the average distance being about seventeen miles. Black-birch is omitted altogether, as I have not been able to obtain an estimate of the quantity, which, however, is large, whilst the timber is valuable. It is quite evident that the opening-up of this timber country would be a financially sound enterprise, and that a tramway or light railway would, by means of its own earnings, together with the timber royalties which would accrue through its construction, earn enough revenue to pay good interest on the expenditure, as well as to enable a sinking fund to be provided equal to the repayment of the full cost of the work in twenty years. In addition to all this, there is the increased value of the land, the sales of which are estimated to produce when cleared £14,150. Also, the tram-line, or light railway, is in good order, in case it should be required as a link in a railway to Nelson. As regards, however, extending the line to Nelson, this is a matter probably for the distant future. The rough and unfavourable country in the neighbourhood of the Wangamoa Saddle, and from thence for some distance towards Nelson, would make the scheme difficult. Judging by the late Mr. Fox's reconnaissance survey of that route and by what 1 have seen in passing, I should think that on the Nelson side a rise of about 800 ft. would have to be overcome in six or seven miles, which means a heavy grade, besides which a tunnel at the saddle would be necessary. Becommenda tion. The height of the saddle at the bend of the Eonga Eiver, which leads over into the Croixelles (800 ft.), makes it impracticable to take the timber to this harbour cheaply, as a grade of 1 in 40 would be necessary for over six miles, and this would prove too heavy for light engines to do real work upon. The remaining course would seem to be to buy the tram, or, if cheaper, to construct a new tramway or light railway from Havelock up the north side of the river throughout. J. A. Wilson, E.E. List op Enclosures. A. Estimate of value. B. Estimate of cost of placing existing line in repair. C. Estimate of cost of additional rolling-stock. D. Estimate of cost of completing extension through Eai and adjoining valleys. E. Summary estimate of probable total cost of tramway. F. Estimate of revenue and expenditure. G. General plan. s—l. sb.

I.—sb

34

A.—Rai Valley Tramway: Estimate of Value.

13.—Rai Valley Tramway : Estimate op Cost op placing existing Line in Eepair. £ Widening banks (see estimate No. A) ... ... ... ... 422 Repairs to culverts, lump sum ... ... ... ... ... 25 Repairs to bridges, 17 per cent. ... ... ... ... ... 162 Raising Pelorus Bridge 368 cubic feet, at £1 10s. ... - ... ... 552 New sleepers (see estimate No. A) ... ... ... ... 851 £2,012 C.—Estimate op Cost op Additional Rolling-stock. £ Locomotive ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 500 Timber-wagons, sixteen, at £25 ... ... ... ... ... 400 Brake-van ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 125 £1,025 D. —Estimate op Cost op completing Extension through Eai and Adjoining Valleys. Nineteen miles, at £1,100 per mile ... ... ... ...£20,900 E. —Summary Estimate showing probable Total Cost op Tramway. £ Existing work ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 12,421 Repairs to existing work ... ... ... ... ... ... 2,012 Rolling-stock ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,025 Extension ... ... ... .. ... ... ... 20,900 £36,358

Description. First Cost. Deduct for Defects. Present Value. Land, say, 50 acres, at £12 ... Fencing, five miles, at £60 ... Deduct for depreciation 60 per cent. Cattle-stops, fourteen, at £10 Deduct for depreciation 50 per cent. Earthwork banks, 46,800 cubic yards, at lOd. 10,693 „ 9d. 3,000 „ Is. 25,800 „ Is. 4d. £1,950 401 150 1,720 £ 600 300 £ £ 600 140 "l80 120 "70 "70 Deduct for want of breadth in bank 10 per cent. Side-cuttings, rock not used in banks, 4,000 yards, at 3s. Under 1 ft., 67 chains formation, at £1 Forming, &c, 266 chains, at £3 5s. Culverts, 60 ft., at £2 Deduct for depreciation 50 per cent. Small bridges, 442 ft., at £2 3s. Deduct for depreciation 50 per cent. Wakamarina Bridge, 240 ft., at £3 Deduct for depreciation 25 per cent. Protective works at Wakamarina Eiver Deduct for depreciation 25 per cent. Pelorus Bridge, 368ft., at £6 Deduct for depreciation 10 per cent. Platelaying, 454 chains, at £1 Sleepers, 454 chains, at £2 10s. Deduct for depreciation 75 per cent. .... Bails and fastenings, 435 tons, at £6 ... Deduct for depreciation 10 per cent. 4,221 600 67 865 120 422 3,799 600 67 865 "60 60 950 720 475 475 200 180 540 2,208 "50 150 454 1,135 220 1,988 454 851 "284 2', 610 261 2,349 15,190 2,769 12,421

35

I.—sb

F.—Rai Valley Tramway : Estimate op Eevenue and Expenditure. Annual Eevenue, — £ £ Timber traffic, 8,330,000 ft. at Is. per 100 ft. ... ... 4,165 Passenger and goods traffic, say ... ... ... 135 Royalty, 8,330,000 ft. at 6d. per 100 ft.... ... ... 2,082 6,382 Annual Expenditure, — Locomotives, two at £750 per annum ... ... ... 1,500 Maintenance ... ... ... ... 1,000 Traffic expenses ... ... ... ... ... 350 Eepairs and sundries ... ~ ... ... ... 200 3,050 Excess of revenue over expenditure... ... £3,332 Sinking Fund, — Approximate cost of tramway complete £36,358, at 5 per cent., reserve fund ... ... ... ... 1,098 Annual balance available for interest = 62 per cent ... £2,234

EXHIBIT No. 2. The Eai Valley Tramway and Settlement. (Eeport furnished to the Surveyor-General by the Members of the Marlborough Land Board.) [Republished from the Pelorus Guardian, 14th September, 1897.] By the kind permission of the Hon. John McKenzie, Minister of Lands, we publish the following excellent report from the Marlborough Land Board on this important matter, which must be of great interest to every one in the district: — "In compliance with your request, conveyed by letter dated the 26th March, 1897, the correspondence referred to, re Messrs. Brownlee and Co's application for a concession of tithes of timber in the Rai Valley, was placed before the Board for its consideration, and, as the matter opens up the whole question of the Rai Valley Tramway and future settlement of the land, it was deemed of such importance that the members decided they would visit the locality and make a general inspection of the land and timber themselves, so as to form a clear idea regarding the concession asked for, before making any recommendation to the Minister. This has now been done, and the Board is quite satisfied that there is a very large area of land covered with an extensive and valuable forest belonging to the Crown in that vicinity. The Board has also gone carefully and exhaustively through the previous requests on this important subject, as embodied in Parliamentary Paper 1.-sb, presented to the House on the 17th October, 1894, and, taking the summary of them the Board finds : That the Crown Lands Ranger; Mr. Joshua Rutland, in his extensive report in 1886, estimated the land suitable for settlement, including flats, terraces, and hills, at 30,000 acres, which are all covered with dense forest, consisting of rimu, white-pine, totara, and matai, which stand on some portions of the land very thickly, and estimated to contain, in some cases, the enormous quantity of 50,000 superficial feet of timber to the acre. That Messrs. C. H. Mills and A. P. Seymour, in their report made in 1892, confirm the statement made by the Ranger with regard to the extent of land suitable for settlement, but make their estimate of the timber suitable for sawmilling purposes considerably greater, and show, at the same time, there is a large extent of other Crown lands in the Wakamarina and Upper Pelorus Valleys heavily timbered, which will eventually be utilised and serve to feed the tramway after the timber in the Rai Valley has all been cut down. That in 1893 Mr. Charles Turner, an old and experienced bushman residing in the Rai Valley, confirmed their statement as to the extent and value of the timber in the valleys, by measuring the standing trees on part of a section, and proving that there were considerably over 2,000,000 superficial feet on the 200 acres. That in 1894 Mr. Sidney Weetman, Chief Surveyor here, made an exhaustive report, confirming both the others in regard to the valuable asset in land and timber, although differing somewhat as to their extent, but, from actual measurement over one section containing 118 acres, he found there were 2,245,395 superficial feet, or nearly an average of 20,000 ft. of sawmilling timber to the acre, thus more than fully substantiating Mr. Turner's statement. That in the report from Mr. Wilson, Resident Engineer, Wellington, in 1895, on the Pelorus Tramway, he says, ' Joining, as it does, the deep water with the valuable State forests in the Rai, Ronga, and Opouri Valleys, the tramway in question is well placed for developing a timber trade. It is the key to the position, and the timber in the State forest reserve is locked up, and, unless it is decided to lift the reserve and abandon the timber to its fate, allowing it to be destroyed, the land also is locked up, and no settlement is possible. The latter course is evidently wrong, and should, I think, be avoided at all hazards. The forest is far too valuable, even at the lowest computation, to make this the right thing to do. It should pay well to open up. It is quite evident the opening up of the timber country would be a financially sound enterprise, and that a tramway or light railway would, by means of its own earnings, together with the timber royalties which would accrue through its construction, earn enough to pay good interest on the expenditure, as well as to enable a sinking fund to be provided, equal to the repayment of the full cost of the work in twenty years. In addition to this there is the increased value of the land, the sales of which are estimated to produce, when cleared, £14,150.'

I.—sb

36

" All these reports, combined with the valuable evidence given by the Hon. John McKenzie before the parliamentary Committee —' I have visited the district myself, and am satisfied that the statements with regard to the timber are true, and I have no hesitation in saying that it should be worked first entirely for its timber ; only there is a difficulty in the way—how to get the timber to a market. This tramway belongs to private individuals, and to get to our country you would have to go over this line, and all the timber would have to be taken by this tramway to the seaport. My own opinion is that it would be impossible to utilise this forest reserve without a tramway. If the tramway belonged to the Crown there would be no difficulty in disposing of areas of timbered land for sawmilling purposes in these valleys, and a large revenue would be got from it, and then we would have cleared the land for settlement afterwards.' " Also the valuable evidence given by the Hon. A. J. Cadman at the same time, who said, ' I have been over the district twice, and I look at the matter in this way : If the property were my own, what would Ido with it ? There is no doubt that, outside the question of detail estimate, there is a large quantity of timber there, and, as he has pointed out the trouble is to get access to it and get it away, my idea is that it would be better to make some arrangement for taking the tramway over and let the haulage of the timber pay just the bare cost of working, and let the royalty for the timber pay for the whole thing, which it will pay three or four times over.' Question by the Chairman (to Mr. Cadman) : ' You believe the timber would more than pay for the construction of a railway-line right up to the timber ? —Yes, three or four times over, at the lowest calculation, without going into details. The timber that is in the Eai Valley is only a small portion of the whole amount. There is a very large quantity of timber in the Wakamarina. I think there is at least one hundred thousand pounds' worth of royalties in that place, and in saying this I feel that I am within the mark.' "All this valuable testimony clearly proves that the Crown have a most valuable forest in the Pelorus district, and the actual cost of the tramway must not be confined to an estimate on the value of the land and timber in the Eai and its tributaries, but must be spread over the adjoining timber lands, for it would ultimately produce a large and continuous revenue in haulage and royalties on timber to come out of the Wakamarina and Pelorus Valleys. But, apart from these future accessions to the revenue, taking Mr. Weetman's estimate of the surveyed and unsurveyed land in the Eai Valley, say 20,000 acres, which, if put in the market now, would only mean £20,000, but if the tramway were purchased by the Government and extended at a cost of, say, £30,000, it would then stand as worth £50,000; and we take a mean estimate of the various computations in the reports, there can be no doubt the land would average, say, 15,000 superficial feet of timber to the acre, but, to be on the safe side, say an average of 10,000 feet per acre, which means, in the aggregate of 20,000 acres, 200,000,000 superficial feet at 6d. per hundred, £50,000. Then, value of land with convenience of tram-line and heavy logs removed, say 20,000 acres at £3 per acre, £60,000; total, £110,000. Therefore, if the Pelorus Tramway were purchased and extended for the amount mentioned, after deducting the £30,000 for extension, the Government would then have a property worth £80,000, as against its present value of only £20,000 ; and these figures are taken at the lowest computation. Now, if the money had to be borrowed, it would mean £30,000 at 3 per cent., or £900 per annum for interest, which amount could be charged with expenses for working the line in haulage-rates, while the tithes for one mill alone (like Messrs. Brownlee and Co.'s, who propose to cut 20,000 superficial feet daily, or an average of, say, 4,000,000 annually) would provide a sum of £1,000 per annum from that source, which would in less than twenty years create a working-fund that would repay the full amount borrowed. If no other sawmills were erected, it would take the plant referred to over fifty years to cut all the timber from the Rai and its tributaries alone. Therefore, the Government could let other sawmill sites if they deemed it advisable. " Now, before dealing with Messrs. Brownlee and Co.'s application we must forcibly point out that this is the only valuable forest belonging to the Crown from Nelson all down the east coast to Southland on this Island ; and, as the Board has never seen its equal in the colony, they emphatically indorse the opinion of the recent Timber Conference in urging the necessity for working all our forest land to the best advantage in the interest of sawmillers and settlement. Therefore, we submit the following recommendations : (1.) That all the tithes of royalties now charged for timber taken off Crown lands should be raised throughout the colony instead of sacrificing such a valuable asset, as that would be the first step to encourage every owner to conserve whatever valuable timber he may have, instead of recklessly destroying it. (2.) That the Government should take immediate steps to purchase the Pelorus Tramway from the present owners, and supply the timber from the Crown lands at certain fixed rates, including haulage and royalties, or let the timber be removed from given areas of land under reasonable restrictions, the tithes to be fixed hereafter, and the< sawmillers paying haulage. (3.) That, if the Government decide not to purchase the Pelorus Tramway at once, every reasonable facility by way of reduction in tithes over stated areas of sawmilling timber should be given to such an enterprising firm as Brownlee and Co. immediately, so as to encourage them to extend their tramway up the Rai Valley, and thus continue the excellent work of finding steady employment for the great number of workmen who have signed the petition. The whole question is of such vital importance to the Pelorus district and Marlborough that the Board would respectfully request that the Government would take this urgent matter into their serious consideration without delay, so that, whatever is decided, this great industry may not be crushed and so many bread-winners thrown out of employment." We trust that, after reading this valuable report, those residing in Havelock and district will awake from their lethargy, and ask the members for Wairau and Nelson to press upon the Government the importance of getting this great question settled, so that, as the valuable sawmilling timber is removed, the young people growing up may make homes for themselves on the land they have so long been anxious to settle on.

37

I.—sb

EXHIBIT No. 3. Dear Sir,— Blenheim, 13th July, 1898. I quite agree with you that the closing of the Eonga and Opouri Valleys would seriously retard the progress of Marlborough. The building trade is very brisk just now in town, and there is a large quantity of timber wanted in all directions. The farmers have had a good season, and are improving their homesteads and extending their outbuildings ; also, the new settlement at Blind Eiver is requiring a large quantity, to say nothing of the early prospect (only a few months) when the Starborough land will be closely settled, and, as you know, with the exception of a small quantity of weedy stuff at the Kaituna, we are, and always shall be, entirely dependent on the Rai Valley for our supply. The timber industry of the Rai has for many years been the chief support of Canvastown and Havelock; without it both places would be snuffed out. Why our Nelson neighbours should begrudge us the prosperity we have a right to expect from this valuable industry I cannot understand. In addition to the absolute necessity of us having a supply of good timber, we also want every available acre of suitable land for small settlers; and I understand that after the bush has been utilised there is a very large area of first-class land for settlement, which I am sure will be eagerly sought after. The plea that these valleys are necessary for scenic purposes is absolutely absurd, and in any case could only be justified if this was the only piece of bush left. There are many thousands of acres in the upper Pelorus Valley and Maungatapu not only nearer the main road, but far more beautiful from an aesthetic point of view. I think the Nelson people might safely ask that some of this should be reserved. I hope I shall be pardoned for saying it, but their action reminds me forcibly of the old fable about the dog in the manger. Marlborough has not yet forgotten how badly she was treated by Nelson at the time of separation and abolition of the provinces, and this desire to filch from us one of our best assets should not be tolerated for one moment, and I trust that when the matter comes before the Petitions Committee they will indorse the opinion of those several practical men who have already reported that these valleys should be thrown open to the sawmilling industry, and afterwards for close settlement. Hoping you will succeed in that direction, 1 am, &c, E. Purser, C. H. Mills, Esq., M.H.E., Wellington. Mayor, Blenheim. Approximate- Coat of Paper. —Preparation, nob given; printing (1,425 copies), £21 4s.

By Authority: Johk Mackay, Government Printer.— lB9B. Price Is.

6-1. sb.