Mr Ballance at Alexandra.

Waikato Times, Volume XXIV, Issue 1964, 7 February 1885, Page 2

Mr Ballance at Alexandra.

Mr Uallance. who arrived on the ground of Whatiwhatihoe .it 10 o'clock, wan welcomed by l.ml, of Hauraki, and To Wheoro. Tawhi.io did not arrive on tin 1 scene until about ten minutes afterwards. Among the principal chiefs who were present were Ori te Ori, To Tuhi, Mauhiri Ter.wvhiti, Teng.ikan, Ahipeno and Kew , T.iwhi.io said : — Greetings to you, greeting* to everybody. Mr Ha.ll.mce: I am rery glad to fee you. T.vwhi.io. Tawhiao : I say the name. Mr Ballance : I had intended to meet yon at Wanganui when you paid your \isit t but you went away too soon for me. You left the day before you intended, and I wan unable to meet you. I hojxt you rujoyed your visit to England. I r.m \ery glad to he.ir from Major Te Wheoro that the people were very kind to you. Tawhi.io -uid : They were \ery kind. It was not th.it they treated n» uell for one day, but for continuous week--. Mr Balbinee :So I have heaid. It h.is given great .satisfaction to the people of this colony. The Euiopeans, tlie people of Engl.md, are always ho-.jiit.ible to groat chiefs when they leave thin coimtiv to pay .1 visit to the Mother Country. It is .1 stiangp country to yon, hut not to nnnv of us. T.iwhino : They aie very go "1 P ""pi" indeed. I h.ive nothing' to s.»> m favour of the soil, but the people are very good. They did not have anything bad to siv to in. They did not call us black fellow-. Mr B.iil.uice : The clim.ite is not equal to th.it of New Zealand. You would not have had such good health there as you h.ive here. I ku|>|miso you have no wish to go back again.^ Tawhiao : Kohore. The is only one person of great importance that should go backwards and forwards, and that is the electnc telegiaph. Te Wheoro asked that bills concerning the native race should first hi 1 submitted to them that they might cut out what they thought was b.id. He etjMH ted more fioni the present Government : I th»'refoie say to you be careful how you m mage nuttem concerning Kawhia. Do not let your policy in respect to Kawhia be carried out like, Mr Bryeo's. T.ivvhiao said : I wish that all the 1 iwn should be, cuefullylaid down, >o that I can look at them and tell you which I prefer alxnitthorailwav. I have heard it stated th nt tho rail why has been given up to you. It is stated that the Ngatimatiiopoto, those who are chiefs, have given it up to you. Leave me the management of my land. Mr B.illaiic> said : Tawhiao, Major Te Wheoro, and friends, — I have gre.it pleasure in meeting you here for the fii-t time. I have long wished to meet Tawhiao and the other chiefs of tlin W.uknto, and now my wish has l>een realised. I bung from the Government their fiiendly wishes, and statement* to the native people, anil give you all my assurance that the Government one and all wish the natives all prosperity and happiness, and are prepared by every ineaiiH in their power to bring about that result. The Government represent the whole of tho people ef New Zealand. They desiie to realise the high position and the resjwnsibilitT which has lxjen placed upon them, and they wish to tnike just ltwa which will not fivonrone person or one p.utv more than mother, hut take all within their embrace. Ditfeiences of opinion may arise between us, but after we have consulted together I am perfectly sure none will remain : we will arrive at those conclusions which will be I test for both races. The Government, of which I am a member, do not favour ono race more than another : all are equal in the eyes of the law. Tawhiao has paid a visit to England, the pi ice from w hich the Eurolio.ni people have come. He has sepn the greatness of that country, and what has ple.ised me more than anything eKe is the gre.it kindness which has been *hown to Tawhi.io and his friends during his visit. It shows that our race wish well to the native people. I only hope that the friendship will grow closer as time goes on ; that .ill differences will lx> renio\ed, and that the native people will come to ieali«e that the Government is their friend. I will now refer to Taw hiao's speech. His words .ire very good. He has asked that all the l.iw> shall be carefully prepared so th.it he may look at them and that lie may have an opportunity of judging w Inch to prefer. I thoroughly agree with that sentiment, and I will tiy as far as possible to cany out the wishes which Tawhiao has expressed. I think that all mi] ortant laws before they are made, should lw submitted to the judgment and the discussi >n of the native people, and I shall take eire that all aits and laws shall lx» submitted to them before they am submitted to tho Parliament. The Parliament of tin* colony is supreme, and makes laws for both races. It is only right, theiefore, that the people of both races should know what these laws are before they are put into force. It was very glad to hear Tawhi.io say this, foi it hiiug-t us together and tends to establish confidence by lequiring that the law* undei which \ on are to li\e and we Europeans aio living fchould bo carefully discussed before they .ire passed h\ Parliament. Major Te Wheoro has liad long experience in P.uli.iment, and has in the pa st been of gre.it assistance in miking laws for the benefit of the native poople, and although he is not a member of Parliament now, I shall 1)0 glad to see him down the next session, w hen we can disouss these questions together in Wellington. Major Te Whooro has ovprossed his conh'deneo in iuo and in the Government of which I am a member. We were of the same party when ho was in the House, and went into the same lobby together, that is, voted on the same side, and he rightly feols that is some guarantee that we shall be winking together in the future. When mm have worked cordially together in tho past they are very likely to be united m the futuic, and I hope to be in a position to discuss these questions with Major Te Wheorn before tlioy pn»<» into Invv, Tawhiao and To Wheoro both havo referred to Knwhia, and they have asked that we should proceed cautiously. We shall prweed cautiously, and T should like to confer with both Tawhiao and Major To Wheoro as to the steps to bo taken w ith regard to Kaw hi.i in tho future. I shall always be ready to com suit w ith them as to which is best to be dono, I don't know what they refer to paiticularly. Tf they lefer to thfl Himeys and the trig stations, I would like to say a word upon that. Tho ohject of the survey is not to affect their lands ; it is to en ible the people to have then lands survoyed when they w ish to do so, hut not Ix^foro. I will now say one word with r -gard to lailways and mads. Tho railway has boon authorised by Parliament through the centre of the Island, and must go on that It luny benefit the lands through which it proceeds. The only land that will br ta\en for it w ill be the land on which the railwivv will ht<tnd| ami that "ill bo paid for unlf*» when tho ovwiern nre determined they may give It for the* purpemo of the railway, Euiopeans looked upon railways a« a great benefit to them, and they are an equal benefit to the native people. They will (rive employment to the young men, nnd they will increase fomfold or tenfold the v iluo of their land. I hope you will, thcrefi r\ cordially assist un in carrying on these pood works. Tawhi.io saw when ho was in England, that railways intepsootod all par Is nf tiie countiy. HaUwuvH havo niade Eng land great, and they will make this colony gloat also. No one suffers by them, and all are bonefited. Tawhiao askod that the management of his hind should bo left t« himself. 1 miy say on,e word with repaid to this question. It Is tho dt^iro of the Government to leavo the management of native lands as much us possible in the hnndw of the natjvea

themselves. The owners of tho l:ind tiro the best judges to decide tvhat will be done with them. Last »«-.-<iiin, by Act of Parliament, wo took in four ;uul a-h.ilf million acres of land. [Te Wheuro : Tawhiao referred to Kawhia, and not to the laud on each side of the raiivvay.l I understand, of course, that Taw hi.io referred to Kawhia ; but now I w ill spe ilc pen* rally w ith regard to the hind for the natives It is tho intention of the (internment to allow the people themselves to manage thoir lands by means of committee.. When tho inMicriof a block of land are found out they will have the power of appointing a committee among themselves to nnn.i^e that land and that l.md cannot bo sold or lei-,ed without the consent of the committee and the people. No pri\ate Kniope m will then be allowed to com** in bv a. hack gate, and get the lnnrl away fioin the peopfe. What is done shall be done with tho consent of the people theiu-elve«. When tho people are prepared to lense then the Government will assist by advancing the nionev for the surveys, and all they shall ask will 1m that the cost of the survey will be returned to them. But this law, although it h .in important one, shall not he mule without the bill being circulated amongst the native jmoplc ; you will have an opportunity of expressing your opinion upon it. The invitation givm to To Wheoiol aKoextc nd, of course, toTavvhiio. I should be glad to see him in Wellington to confer with the Government dining the session on this question. We shall treat linn with the kindness and consideration due to a great chief of the people. Your leaders are those who are best able to protect you, and it is the desire of the (iovemment that they should be taken into their confidence. I have now touched upon those subjects which have been referred to by Tawhiao and Te Wheoro. I had intended to touch upon inoro, but I do not suppose that it is of importance t<« tho people thtit I should give a long speech on this occasion. The most important part of my .speech in that we shall consult with the chiefs and the jwoplo before we pas* laws infecting their interests I have given you my word that that shall be done in future. lam very glad to meet you all here to-day, and I wish you much prosperity. You will always rind me willing to as-i-t you to the best of my ability in even thing th.it atfects your welfare, My ambition N that after I have given up office the people shall say that 1 have been a fi tend to the native race. Tawhiao said : What I wish with regard to the Acts that affect ourselves is that it may h» left with mo to make them, l>ecauso I am the representative of the people. The (lovernnient, also, :ire the representative of the jieople. The (internment is the cause of all the surveys, railWays, and roads. I have heaid alwnit the railway. I agree to tli.it railway going through, but it is to b" left to me. I will luiu.iire it. I own this dUtiict. lam the head man here. lam the lopresentative of the land. 1 tiuly say I agree to the railway line going through, it can only go through on my agreement. [Mr Wilkinson here explained to MilUUauceth.itwh.it T.iwln.io meant wan that though Wahanui and otheis had given then consent, it required his ratification. I h.iv c come from England, where I heard a conversation with the representatives of the Government J I wish yon to understand my statement about the railway line, that I want to be consulted about railways and roads. lam giving up every point on condition I am connected. Why is *elfgoveminent for the Maori nice being withheld? why is it not given t<> the Maori chiefs to manage thing-, for their own good ' Let them have it ; give the chiefs and the tubes a separate gov eminent for shem-iM-lves ; let them manage their own atf.iiis. (Jive that to us to-day while the mvi is shining. Mr Ballance : I would just'sny a few words with reference to what Tawhiao has said. lam pleased to heat him say th.it he agiees to the railways. It is desirable that we should have the hearty support and cooperation of the native people in this gie.it work, for I feel well assured it will be attended with great benefit to you all. Tawhiao has lefei led to England and has seen Lord Dei by. The advi^eis of the Queen has spoken to him on this question of Government. Lord Derby would not speak one word against the Government of the Colony. He recognises as fully as any man in New Zealand that the Parliament and Government of this colony ii supremo within the c ilony. Lord Derby never told him anything contr.uy to that. I won't siy that others may not have said so, fur their own selhsh end". We have not evidence that Loid Derby and other advi«crs of the Queen never said anything but what w.i* Ki>od and right and pro]>er. Loid Derby knovvsth.it the Queen, thioiigh hi" Goveinor and through the Parliament, nets in this colony, just the same as she does at Home. The Queen is hero as well as in England; that is her jHivver ! It is exeicised here in her name and by her authol lty. Taw hi io said he would like to bo consulted about these questions, railways, etc. I agiee with him, and it is my desire t«J consult him on all questions which affect the welf.uu of his jK'ople, and I hope to Me him next session in Wellington to consult upon these questions. He will find that the Government will always Ik< piepaied to listen with proper lesjiect t<i any advice he h.w to otfei. Tawhiao has also iefei red to self-government for the Maori r.ice. He suys, Why not give the [K'ople the right to manage theii own affairs to a large extent? I agree that we are now extendtug self-gov eminent to the native l.tee under ..the Parliament, Government, and institutions of the colony. Tawhiao: We want it independently of the Government. Mi Ballauce : We tecoguise that there can only be one supreme authority in New Zealand. Kieiyonc know a that divided authority would bo ruinous to both races, but subject to that we are prepared to extend to the native people large powers of self-gov eminent by means of their Native Committees. We propose to give to those committees lirge powers, and to make them really represent the people. Why, what did Tawhiao do the other day? He signed <» petition, with others of the native people, asking that one of tho laws of the colony should bo put in force m the whole of the Waikato, taking in Kawhia, and did not tho law come to his assistance ? The whole of tho country was included in accoidanco with the request of those who signed the pioblem ; the sale of diink was precluded by tho law of the colony from the whole of this tenitory. It is not therefoie cleai to your minds that when Tawhiao has made his icquestthe Government was ptep.ued to grant it under the laws of tho colony. Does not th.it pr«vo tli.it the law of the colony (s sufficient for Hie protection <if both races. 1 liavo said that requests made by Tawhiao will always bo listened to. With lespect to that loquost, it wuk not only listened to with respect, but was granted, and Tawhino may make othei lequests, which will be not only listened to with respect, but may also be granted. I have said that the laws of the colony are sufficient. Tho laws may not meet exactly all the wants of the native people, but we have the pow er through tho Parliament of making them equal to Hit; whole want* of tho native people, and I have asked that Taw hian shall consult w ith us m order that these laws may be made more peifeet and more benelicial to the native race. That is all at present, Tawhiao asked whether any reply had been sent to England with legaid to the petition to the Queen, which had been re. feiied to the New Zetland Government. Mr Uallauoe, ! Tawhi.io has .isked whether any reply has been sent to England with l egard to the petition that was sent home to the Queen. The law ottieeis of the Crown are sending a reply to the English (iovemment with leg.u d to this question. That question, that has been l.nsed with regard to the treaty of Wa.it.ingi, has been c uefullv consideml, and the opinion of tho law ottioeiM of the down shall be sent homo to the English (Joy eminent. The tieaty does not give the light for two Governments to lie .set up in New Zealand. The chiefs theie Innind thenisolvos to .icoept the l.ivv^ of the Queen, in exchange for w Inch she guaranteed to them their livus, their hbcity and their property. We are piepaied under that treaty as t have said under the laws which the Queen has given to the colony and undei the constitution of the colony to give the luitiveslaige powers'of m -I f-go\ eminent. That is the meaning of the tieaty. I tell Tawhiao this, and the ]>cople tins, that no foreign ltody, n,<i fomiijii power, will be allowed to iuterfeiu with tho jntnm.il .iff aiu of th>) colony. I .say this in the name of tho Europeans of this colony and of a large proportion (l f the native population. We value our own institutions, and mi foieigu inteiforence will iner bo tolerated. \ h<>po my w<irds avo. clear heie, Tv Whonro B.ild : Your speech show a you aro drawing towards iih. Had previous Governments agreed to follow the course you intend, and if they had done so there would have been no troublos. Ui\e tho.

chiefs local self-government, but let there be one lie»d over lit. all. I am willing to accept the ljueen as our head, and we shall I*s responsible to her in the management of our affair™, a* you arc also responsible to her. Paor* advocated equal representatives i>f natives and Europeans in the Parliament, but was not sntished with the mere circulation of bill*. The acts should be made by the native* themselves outside of the Parliament, and ratitied by the L<>gHture. Te Ngakau followed in the same str vin. Mr Ballance said : I will now reply to what has been -aid by Te Wheoro, Tuh.iere and Te Ng.ikau. Te Wheoro has .said that the Treaty of Wait.mgi w is given to both laces, but ho thought that I said it was given only to the one race. He must have tniMindei stood me. I did not s,iy so. I know the Treaty of Waitangi was given to both i aces, mid I accept it as binding upon both race^, Te Wheoro then aaked that there should be no delay m sending the reply to tho petition to Kngland. I give linn my promise that there should be no delay. He ask* that we should all join together in tho making of laws and that the chiefs should make the laws, but does he ■rean that the people themselves Khali have no voice in making the law* in the election of members to the Homo ; every iiitMiibcr h.is a vote now. Major Te Wheoro, prol> >se th.it the vote xhould Ik- taken from the people at large, given only to the chiefs. If he does I.don't agree with him there. Te Wheoro : No I don't mean that. Mr Ballance : Then again all the people have an interest in the land. Shall only the chiefs exercise jurisdiction over the lands in future? I could not agree to that. All the people have lights to the land who can prove their claim* to it. Therefore, I nay that all the people shall have a voice in the government of the country. That is the principle upon which we have acted, and the principle upon which we intend to act in the future. \ <>u have all a voice in the election of your own committee, and we propose to give you gre.it jiowers of selfgovernment over them, and not to tike from you any of the l*>wers you now possess. Te Wheoro has referred to the (Juetn, but I cinnot s.iy that I clearly understood him there. But I wasexcecdingly glad to hear his expressions ujxm one point which I clearly understand : That we all acknowledge the authority of the (^ueen. Te Wheoro thinks, however, th.it the (Jueen should rule from Eugl tnd in her own person, that is, to rule by her own authority alone, but tho <^uei v »i does not rule in her own pervm and by her own authority alone, flic constitutive of England requues that the (^ueen should rule over her advwTo and her ministers. She acts upon her own responsibility, but only <m the ad vice of her Ministers. The Coupon and Parliament rule (Jreat Britain, the f^ueen through her representative, the Governor and the Parliament of New Zealand, rules New Zealand. That is the law of England as well as the law of this colony. Now, I will refer to wh.it Paul Tuhaere has said. He has asked me a straight question— will the native repiesentation hi the House be increased. I reply to him that List session, as the papfis will show, I advocate in the House an increase of tho native ineml>ers. He auks that they should have the *amu expresentition as the Europeans. I reply that they are entitled to the i.imo repicsentation in propoitlon to mnuiier*. (Paul Tuh.iere: Yes) I am glad to hear thit Paul Tuhaere agrees with me there, and I shall be piepari'd to advocate that in Parliament. P.uir.i has referied to acts made outside by the natives, and taken into th ■ Parliament for ratification. I wish to make the mystery cleai upon this point. The Pal liaiueut which is composed of Maoiis and Europeans has the Mipreme voice in making laws, while we are prepaied to consult this people outside. With regard to this a bill was to Ihj bi ought before Parliament that they must have the supreme voice. I have said that, as a member of the Government, I am prepared to advocate that the people shall be consulted, and that the pr»per respect shall be paid to their wishes and to tlieir wants, hut the Pai liamrnt has the supremo law-making authoiitv. Te Ngakau has made a very excellent speech, and he has said, in regard to the railway, he is quite prepared to allow the land to be taken over which the railways run, but the Government are not to interfere with the land on each bide. I give mv promise that the Government shall not interfere with the land on each side the lailw.iy. All that we want is simply the tand over which the lailway runs, and if the j>eop!e are not prepired to give that laud to the (!ov eminent for the construction of the i.ulwsvy, seeing tli.it it will \»eiieht the land each side, the Government are piepared to pay for it. I hope yon are satistied on that point. Then To Ngakau has said that it is not fair that there .should be sev eral European Judges sitlingiu the Nati y e Land Court and only one assessor. I agree with him very largely there and in future it is my desire that there, should be only one judge and one assessor sitting on each case. He has a>ked for a native commissioner. I will carefully consider that question, and will not give him tui answer now, but I will carefully consider it, and give him an answer on a future occasion. I have now given answers to all the questions you have put to me. I hope those answers are clear to your mind*, but if they arc not clear I am prepared to fuither explain them. Te Wheoro : I agree with your ideas of the voting. When I «aid I wanted tho Maori* to be allowed to govern themselves, and the (jtieen to l>e their head, I did not want to ignore the (Jovernor here. We want to be in a position to lay before the Government what we want done in connection with the land, l.nlways, tfce. Now let tho Maoris tiy at self-government and see if it will answer. It was to this end the missinn was sent to England'; when Tawhiao xaid he agreed to the railway, pro\ ided'he h id the management of it, he meant thnt the management of the lands should be left to him. Mr Ballance, I understand from Major Te Wheoro that he recognises tint the P.tili imont of this colony is supreme, and I am glad uc are so far agreed, but he wants under that Parliament one Government for tho natives, hut there can't Ik- a separate Government for the natives* under that Parliament, any more" than there can be a separate (iovernment for the European*. The native people of this island, although I have no doubt they have a great respect for Major To Wheoro, would not bo prepared to accept his rule. The different tribes havo different wishes in this matter. My rnir. belief is th.it l!l out of 20 of all tho natives desire to live under the Government and Parliament and institutions of this colon}'. What they require above all things is justness and fairness and consideration of then interests, and that I say the Government and Parliament are prepared to give them. When he comes to see tho disposition of the Parliament hi extend local government among the people and to do justice by them, ho will come to accept w hat I havo said to day as hi;intr true, and I shall try to convince him by acts that tho Government mean to do well by the native people. [Te Wheoro : Hear, hear.] Patara Te Tuhi asked for tho use of the Hiuemoa to bring the natives to a meeting to l)o held at Whatiwhatihoe on the 12th of March. Mr Ballance said he would refer the pioposal to the Government for an answer. The Native Minister and party left for Cambridge immediately after the* meeting.