THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Westport Times, Volume V, Issue 872, 10 October 1871, Page 2

THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

Tuesday, September 2G. REDUCTION OP THE PUBLIC EXPENDITURE. Mr Macandrew, before going into committee of supply, explained that he wished to move a resolution which would have the effect of materially reducing the expenditure of the country. His "object was not to reduce the salaries of the actual working men —the clerks of the service—but those who were in the anomalous position of receiving more than the ministers of the day. In the case of the judges he thought there should' be one judge for each island. If the motion were carried it would reduce the permanent charges by £15,000 a year, which would be giving £300,000 to be spent on reproductive purposes. He thought a salary of £4OO a year certain for life, placed a person in a much better position than a man who had thousands of pounds out in investment. In the event of the proposal commending itself to the consideration of the House, he would propose that it should commence on the Ist .January next. The motion he had to propose was that in the opinion of the House the circumstances of the colony desired rigid economy in every department of the service, and that, therefore, it is expedient that the aggregate salaries to be paid to all officers of the Government be reduced by ?.5 per cent; of such salaries as are above £4OO per annum, and that where at all practicable offices should be amalgamated, and that one month's salary should be given for every year of service to those officers who were dispensed with. He had no desire to interfere with salaries under £4OO.

A long debate ensued, and the motion was lost. The following is the division list;—

Ayes, 24—Messrs Bathgate, Brown, Brown, Brown, Brvce, Bunny, Calder, Cantrell, Clark, Kelly, Kelly, Macandrew (teller), M'Gillivray, M'Pherson, O'Coner, Pa rata, C. Parker, Eeid, (teller), .Reynolds, Steward, Swanson, Takamoana, Thomson, "Wood, Murray. Noes, 37—Messrs Andrew, Brandon, Carrington, Collins, Creighton, Curtis, Eyes, Farnall, Fitzherbert, Fox, Gisborne, Hall, Harrison, Haughton, Ingles, Johnston, Karslake, Katene, Lightband, M'Lean, M'Lean, Mervyn, O'Neill, Ormond, G. B. Parker. Peacock, Eichardson, Eolleston (teller), Shephard, Studhome (teller), Taiaroa, Tribe, Vogel, Wakefield, Webster, White, Williamson. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply. On the item Public Domains and Buildings, £2550, Mr Creighton proposed that the amount should be reduced by £1650, by doing away with the vote for the museum, that for the Colonial Architect, and for the care of the domains.

Mr Gisborne said the debate on the statement had been twice delayed, and he thought it was now the general opinion of the House that they should go on with the estimates, and afterwards discuss those measures which would be introduced to give effect to the policy of the Government. With regard to the reduction proposed, the Government did not see its way to such a reduction, although they would consent to reduce it by £3OO.

Mr Calder had heard it stated that figures would prove anything, but he defied any hon. member to show by the figures of these estimates that there was any retrenchment in them at all; they were very much in excess of the ordinary reveuue of the country, and if the motion by the hon. member deserved to be called a sham, these estimates deserved to be more strongly stigmatised aa a sham. He was sorry that the motion of the hon. member for Port Chalmers was not carried, because is would have been a guide to the Government. These permanent charges were very vexatious. There was the office of AttorneyGeneral, which was an office which should be considered a legitimate prize to all those capable of filling it. It vvas a great pity that the control of these offices was ever taken out of the power of the house. A motion had been brought forward by an avowed oppositionist, and a similar one had been brought forward by one of its own supporters. ' Then he thought when the Government saw such a feeling on both sides it was their duty to take back the estimates and re-east them. At present he saw a clear deficiency of £200,000, and until he saw some attempt made in the direction indicated, he could not believe they intended to retrench at all. Mr Vogel thought when hon. members considered that the whole of the estimates had to be re-cast recently within a very short time, they would wonder that more discrepancies were not found in them. With reference to the additions to the permanent charges under the Coroner's' Act, he was not prepared to say whether the act itself was an appropriation act, and it was, he presumed, an interpretation of that kind which had led to the charges being charged permanently. He would read a liat of savings, and by savings he meant - that the public purse would net be called upon to Day so much money—because these savings had been called by the hon. member for Eden increased expenses—which amounted to £70,000 on the eipenses of last year. With regard to the apparent saving of the late lamented postmaster at Wellington, he might say that it was not the intention of the Government to fill up that

vacancy, the Inspector of post offices, Mr Gray, having undertaken to perform the duties at an increase of £SO upon his salary, and be might mention that the efficiency of tho post office would not be at all impaired. He would conclude by repeating that the estimates had been framed in a hurry, but the Government would be prepared to accept any suggestions which might be made which' were real savings.

Mr O'Conor said that he had come to the House with the hope of assisting in a reduction which he thought should be made in the expenditure, but, so far, he had been miserably disappointed,, and he now feared that it would be almost impossible to effect any retrenchment whatever. Thi& state of things had been induced by a peculiar and most unfortunate combination of circumstances. The proposal made by the hon. member for Eden, last Friday, to reduce the gross estiraatesby he (MrO'Conor) hailed as the. first opportunity which he had of putting into execution that wise policy of retrenchment which was so desirable for this country. But, unfortunately, this motion was. crossed by the determination of the Government to take it_ as a vote of want of \ confidence. In* common with others, he (Mr O'Conor) did not feel that it would be safe to support it as a want of confidence motion; he preferred to wait until he had obtained a full view of the Ministerial policy before he took so decisive a step. He then had but one course left open to him—adopting it, he declined to vote, thereby wishing to show only that he would not join in a motion to disturb the hon. members who occupied the Ministerial benches. Another proposal followed, that of the hon. member for Port Chalmers—one which he con* sidered far inferior to the hon. member for Eden. It proposed a reduction of 25 per cent, on the excess of such salaries as exceeded £4OO per annum. He supported this only as a step in the right direction, although he early came to the conclusion that it was not upon ,a just basis, and also, that ini some cases, it might operate most' unfairly ; still, seeing that the Colony was actually reduced to a position of difficulty, he determined, even under disadvantageous circumstances, to support the reduction, which was, however, rejected. And now, the House findiug itself in Committee of Supply, some hon. members have declared that they will support no reductions whatever in Committee, because, as they express it, the Government should have them on the estimates ; while others again state that they will support all reductions, because they see no other means whereby they may succeed in bringing about measures of economy. He must say that his limited experience inclined him to believe that reductions in Committee were seldom made, except in the case of some unfortunate official who had no friends in the Legislature. In fact, the tendency was generally the other way—for individual increase. He(Mr. O'Conor) came to the conclusion that the House was decidedly at sea as to how retrenchment should be effected, although agreeing that retrenchment was most desirable. One hon. member had suggested that the House should give up the attempt altogether for this year, but pass a strong resolution that the Government should make serious reductions in the coming year. That suggestion, although wise, | was not sufficient; it was looking too far ahead ; the present time should not be overlooked. Another hon. member objected on the ground that we should not reduce because, when times are good, we do not raise salaries. This argument is based upon a fallacy. It supposes that all salaries are fairly ad. justed according to the responsibilities or duties of office, which we know is not the case, as officials are only too often paid in proportion to the influence which they can bring to bear upon the Ministers of the- day. Tbe question really was not whether salaries should be reduced, because of the Colony being stricken in bad times ; the real point at issue was, whether or not we were paying more for services than they were worth or. than, we could afford. He understood one hon. member to oppose retrenchment because of our being a " great nation" —that so small a thing as retrenchment was infinitely beneath our notice. He thought differently, and would ask where is the " great nation ?" On all sides "resound lamentations upon the hardness of the times—farmers, graziers, traders, miners—all are in sad tribulation, and some -are evon leaving the country. He desired to make an explanation,, particularly because of the declaration of the honourable member for Timaru, who said that there was now an Opposition. He desired to say that he (Mr O'Conor) was not yet a supporter of either Government or opposition, preferring to wait until he •saw the policy of the Government fully developed and understood before he declared for them ;, and on the other hand he would also like to hoar what the Opposition proposed to do before he became one of them. He imagined that this was scarcely the time for & new member to plunge headlong into the vortex, of party feeling; and consequently, he intended to take advantage of his novitiate hy keeping clear of those ties of party which older members had brought with them to this House, and he would continue to do so until ho saw clearly that in the interest of the country he should de otherwise. Reverting now to the item under discussion, he would only remark the reduction proposed by the hon. mem-

bor for Eden appeared very large—rather larger than the arguments of the lion; member or his friends seemed to warrant. Upon the question of Government Domains, ho was not prepared to enter, but it struck him that the people of Wellington ought to do as much as those of other Provinces in the maintenance of grounds required for the purposes of health and recreation. As to the Government buildings, the Government themselves should be the best judges of requirements under the heading. One item had been very much discussed—that relating to the Colonial Architect. Tt *\yas.'generally admitted that there was riot much for him to do. But,, he would suggest that tlie time was '«oming when that gentleman would have considerable claimsmadeup'bn-his'timeandattention in the building of poor-houses for the deluded inhabitants'of this country. The reduction proposed by Mr Creighton.•' thafc the 'item '£2550 for public domains and buildings be re dueed to £9OO, was then put and negatived on the voices. Mr Gisborne proposed that ,the vote be reduced by £3OO. Mr Creighton proposed that the item be reduced by £7OO. ! Mr Hall would like; the hon.;member to specify the item he wished to see reduced. There was | ptte . item — that for. jthe. New. Zealand Institute—> in which he took a great interest, and he should object to its reduction.

Mr Creighton I would ' toy at once that he objected to the employment, of a Colonial Architect asmiuxury the colonv :could not affor,d. n .

Mr Wood thought enough had .been shown to prove that a far greater reduction *than the £3OO proposed by the Colonial Secretary could be effected. While not wishing to. say a single word against the ability of the Colonial Architect —for no one who, had been through' Government House cotild have any doubt upon that point—he failed to see what employment they were to fiud for him now that the great works were completed: r J . ;.. a 117

Mr M'Lean, thought the. concentration of the duties of a Colonial Architect in the erection of public buildins/s had resulted, ms a/great, laying of time and money to the country. The House might receive the assurance of the Government that they desired to see reductions made...

Mr Reynolds intended to vote for the reduction, of the £700,. but he would vote with the object of doing away with the luxuries. He would like to see the vote of £ooo for'th'e New Zealand Institute struck off. On division, the motion' of Mr Creighton was negatived, the numbers being—Ayes, 26 ; Noes, 46. The motion of Mr Gisborne to reduce the vote by £3OO was then put and agreed to. . , , ... ~..; )