SECOND BALLOT.

Wairarapa Age, Volume XXV, Issue 10713, 25 November 1913, Page 5

SECOND BALLOT.

WELLINGTON, Last Night. The Mouse resumed at 2.3U p.m. in committee on the Legislature Amendment Bill. ' Before calling on the business of tho day, Mr Malcolm, Chairman of Committes, made the following statement :—• "The committee was occupied almost continuously Cue whole of last week with the Legislature Amendment Bill. Though the debate was tho longest on record, no progress was made. There have been occasions in Parliamentary history where the Chairman, in order to deliver the Committee from a deadlock, has disregarded the standing orders and insisted on the business of the country being proceeded •with. This is the commentary of Mr O'Rorke, the then Speaker, on one bucli case as recorded in the journals." Mr Malcolm here read the statement from the chair by Speaker O'Rorke in 1881, in which he indicated that the Speaker had power to intervene and stop a deadlock by ignoring the standing orders. Continuing, Mr Malcolm .said : "Wo all know that the majority must rule, - and that the minority must sooner or later submit to superior force. I am not prepared just at this stage to follow the precedent quoted, in which the standing orders were ignored; but : 1L shall from now; on, use to the utmost limit the powers the standing orders give—and they are very wide powers—to bring this dead- , lock to an end.' I trust this intimation will be received in the . same friendly spirit in which it is made, and that members will support me in my effort to maintain the reputation arid efficiency of Parliament." Sir Joseph Ward contended that the position to-day was vastly different from that of 1881. Therefore the remarks of Speaker O'Rorke had; no bearing on the present position. Then the deadlock was carried on by moving alternate motions that the Chairman leave the chair and report progress. l|slt could not be done now, and he appealed to-the chairman to say whether, during the long discussion, members on his side had not strictly conformed to the standing orders, though it had been very difficult to do so. The standing orders, as now framed, made ample provision for dealing with deadlocks, He quoted the effect of standing orders 107 and 205 to show that tins was so. He claimed that these standing orders were designed to protect the freedom of members* and through them the freedom of tho people. It was not possible to act in the present juncture under standing order 24 of the House of Commons, because that House had no standing orders similar in effect to our 107 and 205. The delay which had taken place since Saturday morning was due entirely to the non-acceptance by the Government of an offer made by himself to pass the short title of the Bill. His side did uot want to come into conflict with the chair. Therefore he asked Mr Malcolm to say: (1) Whether he proposed to set aside the standing orders as laws which governed the business of the House; (2) whether he was prepared to take on himself the responsibility of preventing members from moving and speaking to amendment: and (3 s . whether members were to have the right to sneak four times on any question in "committee? Unless members knew what was going to be done, it was possible there would be delay. Mr Malcolm drew attention to that part of his statement where lie haul he was not preoared to follow die precedent quoted, but he would exercise to the; full the wide powers which the standing orders gave hmi. He took "all the responsibility for the. course he proposed to follow. Sir Joseph Ward then indicated that-his party would allow .the short title and the next clause to pass without further discussion. He presumed the Premier would then move his proposed amendment, to give members an opportunity of a second reading debate. The Hon W. F. Massey controverted Sir Joseph Ward's interpretation of the Standing Orders, which h< said had no relevancy to the question at issue. He claimed that there_wen livanv precedents which brought the present deadlock on all fours with that of 1881. He referred to the speech of Speaker Brand in the House of Commons and of Speaker j O'Rorke, to show that the Standing Orders were never intended to permit a minority to impose its will on the majority. The discussion then ended, and the short title and clause 1 were passed without discussion. The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher then moved, with comment, the uew clause as follows: ; "3. The Second Ballot Act. 1908. ' is hereby repealed. Tho Legislature Amendment Act, 1910, and [ the Legislature Amendment Act, \ 1911, shall hereafter be read and constrlied as if all references therein to ;i second ballot were omit- ' ted." Asked to explain the clause the Hon, Mr Fisher said it provided for the repeal of the second ballot. Sir Joseph Ward said the repeal of the second ballot had never been

THE GUILLOTINE APPLIED.

THE SECOND READING CARRIED.

BY MAJORITY OF TEN VOTES.

AN INTERESTING CLIMAX.

(By Telegraph — Press Association.)

an ih&uo bciore the country. Members were not pledged to it. t lt was true tiiav repeal had been advocated in the House, but with a- distinct promise that there would be some substitute. Ho quoted a speech by Mr Massey in 1911 in which he favoured a substitute. The present Bill was, he maintained, a breach of faith with the House and the Country. The Hon. Mr Massey, in reply,, said that his side was distinctly pledged to the repeal of the Second Ballot Act. it should have been repealed years ago. It had had a most demoralising effect whenever it had been in operation., The second ballot had, up to the present, given-no advantage to either party. So_it could not matter if it were abolished. Did the late Mr Seddon secure his majorities by the second ballot? Yet he came along every year with substantial majorities. The second ballot had been disastrous to the so-call-ed Liberal party, which had dwindled until it was out of office. He could not understand them resisting the repeal of the Act. The Government had pledged themselves to bring an Electoral Bill before the House next session, and the House would then have opportunity of inserting a proposal, if they thought fit. If no substitute were proposed, the people of the country would be quite satisfied. Mr G. W. Russell quoted Hansard to show where Mr Massey had advocated a substitute for the second ballot. Me held that the bargaining, whicli had gone on in the past had been instituted by the Reform party.; He instanced the Grey Lynn and Otaki seats at the last election. In both of those cases the members whom Mr Massey sought to buy over were members of the Red Federation* body which was now denounced by the Government. He further. stated that the Chairman of Committee* who had applied guillotine in 1881 had been s"wcpt from offico as soon as the people had an opportunity of expressing their opinion of his action. The discussion then proceeded along general lines, the .Government being accused of indulging in the bargaining which Mr Massey condemned. Mr Russell declared that the debate would end in ten minutes if the Government would promise to submit a substitute next year. The House resumed in Committee at 7.30. iMr Glover continued the debate, and at the close of his speech, the. Chairman announced his intention to apply the guillotine. He said: "I think I have allowed a fair time for discussion. . Members, I notice, are beginning to repeat the arguments, and I wish to put the clause." The Hon. Mr Massey rose and said: "I desire that you, report progress in order that Mr Speaker take the chair, and official 'steps may be started in connection with -the Lyttelton bye-election." • The motion waa earned. The Speaker then took the chair, I and read a telegram intimating the registration of the death of Mr G. Laurenson. The Hon. Mr Massey moved that a writ be issued. •Sir Joseph Ward asked the Premier if he would agree that the repeal of thoNsecond ballot would not apply to the Lyttelton bye-election. There was, he said, a precedent for that in the original Second Ballot Act. He intended to move an amendment in that direction. * The' .Hon. Mr Massey, in reply, said they were not regarding the repeal of the second ballot-in-its relation to the Lyttelton election.' The motion was then put by the Speaker and carried. THE GUILLOTINE APPLIED. The Committee then resumed. The Chairman began automatically I to rule members out of order. Mr Seddon was the first victim of tie guillotine. 'Messrs McOallum, Atmore and Colvin were ordered to resume their sieats in quick succession as being irrelevant. Mr Colvin protested: "I have not said anything." The Hon. J. A. Millar asked the Chairman to say what was relevant. Mr Malcolm refused to express any opinion, but proceeded to say that as Mr Millar was not present when he

made his statement during the afternoon, he proposed to allow him greater latitude than was permitted to other members. Mr Colvin objected to fish being made of one and flesh of another. Mr Malcolm admitted the force of this contention, and intimated that he would restrict Mr Millar to the same limits as the others.. He had explained his position, and was glad to observe the friendly spirit in which his attitude had been received. Sir Joseph Ward roae to say that it must not be supposed that the Opposition concurred in the attitude of the Chairman. Mr Millar proceeded to demand to know from the Government what thing they proposed to substitute for the second ballot, when he came into a clash with the Chairman, who ruled him out. He declared that the position was intolerable, that representatives of the people should not be allowed to mention any argument that happened to be mentioned by some previous speaker. Members continued to be ruled out, when Mr Ngata rose to a point of order, asking a statement from the chair as to how many times an argument could be repeated before it became tedious-repitition. All through the previous discussion members had been prohibited from referring to the principle of the second ballot. This clause had only been in the hands of members for a few minutes, and now discussion was being stifled. The Chairman ruled that the matter of tedious repetition was entirely at his discretion, and each case aiust be dealt with on its merits. Sir Joseph Ward speaking to t"he point of order, said his side would obey the ruling of the Chairman. He Mr Malcolm to remember, that the deprivation of the right of free speech to the representatives of the people was a serious matter, and might, at some future time, be uaed against those who were now putting it into operation. Mr G. W. Russell proceeded fo'give reasons why the clause should not be read a. second time, when he was warned.

He was followed by Mr Millar, who rose and asked that progress be reported so that the Speaker might be "called in to explain to the House what he meant when he went to the Governor and asked for the right of free speech and returned to the House and told members that it had been granted. When the Speaker took the chair, Mr Malcolm explained the position to Mr Lang. Mr Millar then represented the po- ; sition of members to the Speaker under which the right of one speech: was being denied to menders who had not spoken in the previous debate. Mr Malcolm read the statement made in the afternoon, aittv which Mr Massey said that freedom of speech had been referred, to;, but it was the abuse of speech that was objected to. He then proceeded to review the precedents, and claimed that if what previous Chairmen and Speakers had done was right, what was being, done now was right. Sir Joseph Ward proceeded to detail the provisions made in the Stirnrting Orders on the controlling of protracted debates,, which standing orders, lie cor.ld not be ignored. ' The Speaker said a greas deal ot what had been said had nothing. tf». do with the question he was called to decide. He had no choice but to ■sav'that- the question of relevancywas entirely in the handsof the Chairman. ■ The Chairman decided,' and his decision was final. He quoted authorities in support of this position, and concluded by saying that he considered the Chairman was justified ,itt adopting the course he had. He then left the chair, and the Committee resumed. Mr Atmore continued the debate, and was: immediately ruled out on the ground of tedious repetition. Mr Poland met with no better fate. After' he had spoken for a few minutes, the House adjourned for supper. SECOMD READING CARRIED. Shortly after the Committee resumed, a division was taken, and the clause was carried by 36 votes to 26. Mr Ngata then moved to report progress, but was ruled out on the ground that the motion was a moekery. . . A motion that the Chairman leave the chair wa:< also ruled out for the same reason. THE BILL IN CO^BHTTEE. Members then proceeded to discuss tho clause in Committee when they were stopped on the ground of tedious repetition. Tho Chairman was then asked to say whether it was not permissable to use arguments in the Committee stage which were being used on the second reading. V .Mr Malcolm admitted that this was the right of members, and relaxed the stringencv of his former rulings. Members took advantage of the privilege to denounce the methods; of the Government of forcing the Bill through. •Mr Russell moved "That tins section shall not come into operation until March 1, 1915." He wanted the country to have, an opportunity to express an opinion on the question. The motion was lost by 34 votes to 24. ,','■' i Mr Ell moved that the clause do not come into force until a referendum of the people has been taken on the question, on tho day of the next general election. This was lost by 34 votes to 20. At 11.30 Sir Joseph Ward gave notice of his intention to move the following amendment: "Provided that such repeal shall not apply to «»y bye-election which takes place prior to the next general election after the passing of this Act.'' This motion, he said, was based on precedent. The motion was not accepted by the Government, and was rejected by 34 to 25.