THE MOKAU TRANSACTION.

Wairarapa Age, Volume XXXII, Issue 10309, 9 August 1911, Page 5

THE MOKAU TRANSACTION.

STATEMENT BY SIR JAMES CARROLL.

REFERRED TO THE NATIVE AFFAIRS COMMITTEE.

(By Telegraph—Press Association.)

WELLINGTON, Last Night. Tn the House of Raprasentaitive-s this afternoon, Sir James Carroll made a- statement in -regard to the Mokan lands, in reply to Mr Massey. .He ©add (that the mutter was first (brought under the Government's notice, by a' letter dated September 25th, 1908, from the- solicitor for Mr Herman Lewis, the registered ownejof the lea.9esufoinriie.rly held by Mr Josb.ua Jones-. T'ne letter stated that the lessee was willing to join with the Native owners in any scheme which would, facilitate the .immediate sottdiement of the Mock, and it was suggested Itliat a Native Commission-, consisting of Sir Robert Stout and the Hon. A. T. Ngata, abould inquire dnito the matter with a view to the area, being disposed, of nnder the Naitivie Lands Settle>me.ot A:rt, 1907. It was also .suggested that thie respective values of the inteneeite of the Natives and lessees be determined by an independent tribunal!. Just then Mr Joshua Jonas petitioned Parliament and Mr Lewis' application was hung np, an the nope that he and Mr Jones would arrive at a settlement. In February, 1909, Sir Robert Stout and Judge Palmer dealt with the matter, and found that there were four subdivisions of the block, containing 53,000 acres, leased to Mr Jones, and the lease contained, a clause requiring tihe expenditure of £3OOO yearly in the development and •warking of it. It appeared, however thalt' Mr Jones obtained from some of ithe kistsora of .the .main block a deed, purporting to release Mm from rtbis expenditure. The Commission decided tlhat there were eeriouc douibts regarding .the validity of .the leases, and reported agaiiisft Mr Jones.' proposal fcr disposing cf the lands. Consequently, a caveat war. directed to be lodged., against hirdealing -with this- property, and this was not removed until the RegistrarGeneral had satisfied himself. that it 'was impossible dm law to isuppon i ■tine caveat. Then the Government was (approached by tine .solicitors for the Natives, Jones and' Lewis, with a view' to a settlement. The Govern- : ment thought the best way was to j purchase the Natives' initereafc; but I a careful valuation resulted in a re- j port that the. land was only worth--£30,000 a*-the most: So the Gov-" eminent- decided .that .it could not •purchase. The law did not- permit tihe Government to compulsoriily take the Natives' interests, but the latter'® repiresentaitive& raid they were j willing .to sell their interests to the ■ Government for £22,500, -whereat the Gove-rnm emit offioars- computed | these to bo worth only £14,300, and [the lessees' intere'st worth £20,700, and .if it did purchase the Govern- ! imen/t would either have had to adi mit the leases a© good or enter into costly litigation and face a claim by the; lessee for loss of occupation and the right to work life ocal om the property for a period of wear- i iy thirty years'. The Natives also threatened claims against the land .transfer assurance fund. Then- Mr Skenrerttfc, on behalf of the Natives, (wrote, asking for the authorisation, of the acquisition by Mr Lewis-. He said Jones' interest had become vest-} ed in Mr Lewis, and the latter'.:? j leasehold interests were mortgaged • to the Flowers estate to iseoure a ismn of £14,000 and interest, and subisequent mortgage® to Dalzdel far £IOOO and McOarthy for £25,000. Thius the lamountsi owing totalled 000. The letter further stated -that if Itihe negistration of Jones' leases would give him an/ inde-feaisdble title the Natives would claim a large sum against the- insurance fu-nd for rimpjioper registration. Mr Sberrett also stated, after negotiations between himself and Mr Dalziell, representing Mr", Lewis, that hj& tduought an arri angemeait- could be made for the Natives to sell their interesitis for £25,000, to be paid in cash within, (three month®, mokng it a condition that Mr Lewis should, within tln-ee yeai-s, Bubdivade and sell the land in areas not ■less (than prescribed by Section 12 of the Native Land Act. Mr Skerrett concluded by istating that Lewis' and to' niortigageesliad agreed tthewt the proceed® of the sale of-ithe block shoiild be.held by them subject to" any claim-or right thereto establiishied by in a, Court of;.law.or equity. Sir; jani«is Carroll furthieor ataltod -fahat on ,sth JJeoeimSdcerret)t'c3 proposial, and issued an-Order-dni-Council, 'being influeniced by the fact that this was the (speediest method of ensuring closer (settlement! I of the hiook. EveirytMirig done, subisequently was purely departmental. I Regarding Jones', claims, the Government, au no doubt Jones' solicitors wonld admit, did all in its power to obttain for him an. interest in • this land, -hut were finally driven to j itifoe he had no olaim. J The land to-day \vus. vested in the i Chairman of the Maori. Land Board. It was being .surveyed and roaded, and must be isold in- areas equivalent., to and. not. •exceeding 400 acres firstclass land within three years. The. j Government had four courses open to ftb 'Fursi, to do nothing dn the mat- j ter; second, to purchase the. land; .third, to purchase <the interesb-: -of' 1 iNiatire® and take compulsiorily the interest of ' the lessee- and fonrth, to permit-the Natives anditesseei ito K jexxmo to. an arrangement under which the claims against the asisniranjoe fund Ayoulds disappear <and a of the block he isecui-ed. Thie Government did not adopt the first coumse, ibecaiise, being an assurance fund, they would probably have had to pay a considerable sum fto eMicr the Natives or the, lessee; the second, ibeoause the. valuation was £IB,OOO less than the Natives wanted ; .and ihe third, because it would have involved costly litigation.. and the Government "would have liad to meet a large snjm for the lessees.' intenests in coal rights. By adopting the fourth course, the Goveanmeait had obtained an immediate selttle--mienit of the Mock in small areas, without the. risk of a penny to the State, and had saved the assurance fund from swious attack. Sir Jas. Canrioll concluded (by opining thalt the sftatement would probably give (sufficient information to enable the Government's part in the matter •to .be understood, and that the Government would be glad to assist in levery way in giving the transaction the fullest publicity. He moved that the statement be .referred to the tivie Affairs. Committee, to consider aW' ireport.' ' . Ma- Massiey asked that tin- report referred., to a Oommittee othea-i-lthan th© Native Affairs Committee. J Sucli a committee, he said, wa« not | a fair one to refer the matter to, as

it was composed of thirteen, memibors, ten of whom were Government'" supporters. Sir James Carroll said he wished to meat Mr Massey in. any way he could. The Native. Affairs Committee was: quite competent to dead with the matter. Mr Massey asked that a. committee consisting of Messrs Allen, Herries, Hordman, -Okey, Jennings, Millar, McDonald, iNgata, Hogg and (himself deal with the matter. I Sir James. Carroll failed to see the necessity for a. Special Committee. Mr Massey said not a single im- [ portant statement which, he had made i in. coaniectdon. with the Mokau lands had been challenged in the- statement Sir James Carroll had read. What the Crown shouJd have- done was to have, set up a, Compensation Court, as provided by the Native Land Act, which Court could have fixed the amount to bo paid to the owners, of the leasehold interests. He. would like to know how many Native owners were present when the meeting of assembled owners took place'. The amount paid to Lewis when he sold the land'to. the syndicate' should come out. The Mokau J Company did not intend to sell the ] land in the ordinary way to- intending | settlers. They intended reserving, j tlxe mineral rights. He was not sat- - Ssfied with (the tribunal to which, it was- proposed to refer the matter. He moved as an amendment that the Special Committee named by him be set up (to consider and report on the statement. Mr Jennings, pointed out that all ; the Committee, had to do was to con'J sider the statement and report to the i House. ', Mr Lukei supported the amendi menfc. The country was entitled to I all the information otainafcie concern- : ling the deal. Mr Fisher thought the matte*stould go before, some tribunal outside (the House. He asked Sir Jaa. Carroll if he did not think the outcome of the inquiry would be' a most j dimjportanifc factor in the forthcoming I ejections. j The Hon. A. T. Ngata said thf only ' charge readily was. that the interests of (the Native owners had not been safeguarded. The objeeto of the Oommiiittee which went into the matter would be to elicit the factsi brought up under the charges made by Mr Massey. The' Native. Affairs Committee would bring facts out ju-st as .well as anv other Committee. ■Mr Wright stated th.-.t ,the Government could have purohe&od the freehold of the whole 53.000 odd acres of the Mokau lands from the Natives' for,£ls,oooy but they let the chance is&p. through .their'Angers-. He .teupportecT' a Special Gjnimittee. '■'•'. '".■'.■'- ;•■;• Mr Lang said the Government was on fits triad, in this -matter.; .TSiey hod allowed private people to get hold of land instead of settling it themselves. ' After further discussion, the motion of Sir James Carroll was carried by 33 to 26. v Sir James Carroll stated that he hod given all the information in the possession, of the Government in regard to the case. A plain, pure exposition of the facts had been given, and he was sure it wouldprove satisfactory to the people of the country.