May 15. The Speaker took the chair at two o'clock.

Tuapeka Times, Volume V, Issue 225, 23 May 1872, Page 6

May 15. The Speaker took the chair at two o'clock.

PETITIONS. Mr Mervyn presented a very numerously signed petition from the Monnt Ida district relative to the deviation of a river. The Hon. F. D. Bell presented a petition from the inhabitants of Southland, praying for assimilation of the Catfcle Tresspass Ordinance with that of Otago. A petition was presented by Mr J. C. Brown from John M'Kay, praying for investigation of his complaint. The petitions were received. REPORTS. The reports of Select Committees on the petition of Cook and Thomas Murray recommended that the Government take Cook's case into consideration, but that T. Murray has no claim. APPOINTMENT OF JUDGE WARD. The Provincial Secretary said that no memoranda nor special correspondence were in existence. The cost of District Courts were not now paid by the Province ; and in consequence of Judge Gray's time being so much occupied, a District Judge had been appointed for Timaru and Oamaru. The statement was received with laughter. ORDERS OF THE DAY. The Hospital Ordinance (Southland) Repeal, third reading was postponed, as were also the second reading of the Otago Roads Ordinance Amendment Bill, the Cattle Trespass Ordinance, and the Counties Bill. ROAD BETWEEN O AMARU AND AWAMOKO. The House went into Committee on Mr Sumpter's motion ; but on the motion of Mr Reid, reported progress, and the next sitting was fixed, for Monday next. THE EDUCATION QUESTION. The Hon. F. D. Bell would have preferred the question being divided, but as it was not so, he should address himself to the question. He was not sure, however, that this House was tho proper place for its discussion, for year by year the questions to be dcci led b> the Council were becoming fewer. The control was gradually being taken out of their hands, and sooner or later the General Assembly would take education out of their hands. He cordially agreed with the first Proposition of the hon. member for Waikari. t was evident the Council was charmed by his eloquence, and he therefore considered it was better that time had been allowed the House to consider the subject. He thought the hon. member's object was to establish a purely denominational system. To this he should give his decided opposition. The time had gone by for that, and the subject should be looked at in the view of the aided school clauses. He quite agreed that there should be religious faith for national purposes. He did not agree with what Mr Mervyn said when he read extracts from school books, for reference should have been made to the efforts made by the Education Board. For his part he considered the work of education in Otago was more creditable than that of any other Province except Nelson. Turning to the report of the Education Board, he found steps had been taken to procure school books with which no reasonable ground of complaint could be urged by Roman Catholics. He would, however, draw the attention of the Government to the question whether the Shorter Catechism should be learnt in the school or not. The practice had been adopted in one school, and defended by the teacher. Such a school was clearly denominational in its teaching, and a fair ground of complaint by the Roman Catholics. In a paper put into his hands he found that a circular from the Secretary of the Education Board, stated that the Board's resolutions implied that no religious catechism or formulary should be taught in the schools. He would ask the member for Waikari if, under a democratic form of Government, the people would ever be placed in such priestly domination as inlreland? Even in Roman Catholic countries the tendency was to limit the authority of the priesthood ; but we must not forget that religious education in the Roman Catholic faith is made a point of conscience, and unless this is recognised, there could be no national education. It was not so much the duty of the State to provide means of education as to see that the people were educated, and so long as that were secured the less the interference by the Government the betters In Nelson, education was denominational ; yet because there was no attempt to stir up religious strife, there was no animosity. There had been no such excitement in Otago prior to Bishop Moran's arrival ; but how could he be blamed for that ? As a chief of an ancient Christian denomination, he merely strove to establish his own faith. Bnt it was impossible not to perceive that religious difference would henceforth, be the rale, dad. not the exception. He could not join iv a vote denying the Roman Catholics participation in the educational vote. Was it impossible to devise a national non-sectarian system ? In his opinion that was provided by the Education Bill of last year, which would be brought on and passed this year or next. He believed the aided school clauses were satisfactory to the chiefs of the Roman Catholic denomination, and he hoped the Council would pass some resolution affirming them. He asked the House to consider first what the State was called to do, and secondly what means should be adopted to de it. The R.man Catholics, governed and judged by the priesthood, were dissatisfied with the Otago system. He was aware many of the I.oman Catholic laity did not agree with that view ; but dissatisfaction did. exist, and it was worth while to put an end to it. It was opposed to the faith and practice of the Roman Cathode Church to give a secular education. It was opposed to our democratic institutions. So long as the Church of England and Roman Catholics existed it would net be. It was better that children should be taught somehow, than aot at all j and it would be better to devise some means for that purpose. He, however, differed from the form of words of Mr Macassey's motion. He would jail attention to the safeguards proposed by the aided schools clauses. They were that in those schools secular education should be given four hours a day, subject to inspection by the school inspectors, on condition that the denomination provided part of the expense ? Was there a child who fifteen years hence would

not be grateful for secular education provided by the >>tate, rather than purely sectarian education ? It was impossible to prevent priests and parents giving sectarian education. He was surpiised at the argument that aid given to one sect would entitle ninety-nine others to aid. There were but two great divisions, leaving out heathen — Koman Catholic and Protestant — (cries of " Oh ! oh ! ")— ansl he entreated the Council to give support to a system by which they could agree to send their children to the same schools Except in populous cities the aided schools clauses were not likely to be called into requisition. Their number would be trifling, and would never be a&kcd to a dangerous extent. In the country districts the children of all denominations would, as now, go to the district school. Would they be content that the Douay Bible should be read ? (An hon. member : Withdraw them both.) It was impossible in the present state of feeling. So surely as resistance was made to the action of the Churches of Rome and England, so long would they strive to sustain their ascendancy. Denominational schools would be established in the centres of population, but they could not be established in poor country districts. Dr Webßter, in speaking in opposition to the original motion, stated that, in his opinion, the only system of education that would be generally acceptable to the people of the Province and Colony was the national or secular one. The "aided clauses," so called, bethought would lead to the establishment of opposition schools, the children in which wouid grow up to look down upon each other, and ill-feeling and prejudices would be engendered thereby. As to imparting "religious instruction," he believed it would be very easy to make arrangements by which the clergy of the various denominations might impart that far more effectually than at pr. sent, which, in many instances, it was a farce to call " religious education " at all. Mr Cutten poiated out that the system which would grow up under the aided clauses would be essentially a denominational system ; and under this system it would be impossible to have high schools, &c, for the higher education of the general youth of the Province. Mr Macassoy, speaking in reply, would acknowledge the courtesy with which he had ! been treated by hon. members generally while the subject he had brought unaer notice had beeu dismissed. The hon. memI ber having reviewed iv detail the main arguments put forward duiing the debate, appealed to hon. members to restore the harmony which once existed between the Protestants and the Catholics, by doing justice to the latter iv tbe direction his motion indicated. The question was then put, and all the words after the word "that" were struck out from Mr Macassey's motion, upon the proposition to insert the words of Mr Mervyn s amendment. The Hon. Mr Bell moved that the first part of the amend . cut be put first. Mr Mervyn »eijueated permission to withdraw the amendment as a whole, which was negatived. Ur. Menzies moved the amendment, of which he had tfiven notice. Mr Thomson objected to what he termed the preamble « f the amendment. The reason assigned by the mover of the amendment - that as tbe General As embly was about to take up the question of education, it was inexpedient to disturb the existing Ordinance—did not recommend itself to him (Mr Thomson). If the Council affirmed the proposition, it might be construed by the Colonial Government that the Council did not take up the question because it was about to be taken by the General Assembly. It might also be construed into an opinion that the Council did not want to take it up. It was playing into the hands of the General Assembly, which, as they had been told that day, had not only taken public works out of the hands of the Council, but now wished to take away the control of education. His opinion was, that the less the Colony bad to do with the education system of the Province the better. In order to test the feeling of the Council on the point, he moved that the words — ' That inasmuch as the Colonial Government has undertaken to bring forward a measure to provide for education in the Colony " — be omitted. Mr Reid hoped that the Council would not agree to the amendment of hon. member for Clutha, nor to that of the hon. member for Mataura. To agree to them would be refusing to listen to the request made on behalf of the Roman Catholics, and he was not prepared to do that. He had been charged during the debate of having disposed of the question in a few curt sentences. He considered it would be an advantage if the fcpeecb.es were a little more curt and clearer, liis remarks the previous eveuing had been few ; but he thought they could uot be misunderstood. The arguments used by Mr Macassey and Mr Bell took away the ground upon which the former asKed the Council to make provision for aided schools. Mr Bell said they could not prevent the clergy from giving religious instructian to schools, if they chose to do so. The Council did not desire to prevent them doing so ; they said it was the duty of the clergy and not of the State to do so. Nor could he understand the illogical remark of Mr Maccassey in reply, that although power was asked to establish denominational schools, it did not follow that they would be established. Why, then, all the clamor to obtain the power, if it was not to be exercised ? But he believed it would be exercised in many iustauces, and lead to a system of intolerance and bigotry, and result in a most disastrous state of ill-feeling in the several districts. Mr Thomson's amendment, as was one by Mr Luinsden, was negatived on a division. Mr M 'Glasban referred to a personal attack made upon him by Mr Macassey in the afternoon. He had before stated that he had reason to change his views in reference to aided schools. During his candidature for Reslyn he said he was in favor of a national system of education ; and it happened that at one of his meetings the question was asked him what he would do in regard to Roman Catholic schools. He answered :In circumstances where a large number of Roman Catholic children could be gathered together, he thought it would be reasonable to aid Catholic schools ; but where population was sparse he did not see how it could be done, and then he thought Catholics should take advantage of the common schools. Since then he had learned from Bishop Moran that Catholics could not take advantage of those schools, and that was one of his reasons for changing his views Whilst he thanked, and always would thank Bishop Morau for aiding his election, the support was unsolicited. Independent of the support of Roman Catholics, hiß majority was a large oue, and was more than the hou. member tor Waikari had ever been able to get in a contested election. Mr Macassey, in reply, said the hon. member had laid himself open to criticism in not furnishing an explanation of his change of opinion. His other remark, however, was very ungenerous. Although he (Mr Macassey) had not yet been successful in a contested election, he trusted at all events that it would never be imputed to him, as it might perhaps be imputed to some members, and to gentlemen outside the Council, that he had ever been false to any pledge made by him.

The amendment of Dr Menzies having been negatived, the Hon. Mr Holmes brought forward the one of which he had given notice :—": — " That this Council recognises the right of all classes in the community to par* ticipate in the graut for educational purposes, and the Council is of opinion that this can be secured only by the adoption of a purely national non-sectarian system of education." Mr Thomson construed the amendment into an expresston of opinion that the Council had not previously rucognised the right of all classes to participate in any educational grant. They should pause before making such a confession. What was meant by the words "national,non-sec-tarian " ? Did " national " refer to the kind of teaching that took place? He thought national meant Colonial. [Mr Holmes assented to that definition.] Then the Council admitted that it did not approve of the Provincial system of education, and went in for a Colonial system. Was the House prepared to m.vke that confession also? In the face of the interpretation of the hon. member for Ureti, he cautioned the Council against sending to Wellington such a vaguely worded .resolution. Mr Macassey thought the interpretation of the hon. member for Oreti would go further. The amendment recognised the right of all classes in the community to participate ia an educational grant. What grant? It must of necessity be a Provincial grant. According to the hon. member they were to provide Provincial funds for a Colonial system of education. The hon. member would be the first person to repudiate such an interpretation. Mr Tumbull moved the following amendment :—": — " That, in the opinion of this Council, the educational system hitherto in operation in this Province is substantially just to all classes of the community, and that the Council will view with regret any alteration, whether initiated here or in the General Assembly." The amendment being put was negatived, the voting being ayes 13, noes 27. On Mr Tolmie's motion, the debate was adjourned. AGRICULTURAL LEASEHOLDER'S RENi PAYMENTS. Mr Mervyn's motion authorising the Government to reduce the rent for agricultural leases from 2s 6d to Is 6d in the event ef the Land Bill not passing next session of the Assembly, was carried.