NEW BILLS.

Tuapeka Times, Volume V, Issue 225, 23 May 1872, Page 6

NEW BILLS.

The Impounding Ordinance, 1872, and tbs Invercargill Education Exchange OrdinaWe were read a first time. I

ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS.

In reply to Mr Macassey, the Provinc'al Solicitor said that, in his opinion, the words in the 40th clause of the Education Ordinance, 1864, " tbe Holy Scriptures shall be read daily " mean that the Bible shall be read daily without note or comment ; and the words " such instruction " referred to such reading only. In order to arrive at the meaning of the words "such instruction," it was necessary to refer back to an explanation of the word "such." An answer was found in the beginning of the section in the phrase "such reading," which again referred to the antecedent requirement that the Holy Scriptures should be read. Where words were not technical, the presumption was that they were used by the Legislature in their ordinary, popular or general signification. The ordinary meaning of the term "instruction" was the act of teaching or imparting information, and the act of "reading" was sufficiently within such a definition as to warrant him in saying that, in his opinion, the words "9uch instruction," taken with the context, referred to the act of reading only. This conclusion, to which he had come, was strengthened by the consideration of the Education Ordinance, 1862, which was repealed by the existing Ordinance. In the Ordinance, which was repealed, not only was the reading ofjthe Scriptures daily prescribed, but also " such religious instruction" as the School Committee should appoint, not at variance " with what are commonly known as Evangelical doctrines." The omission of such a specific provision in the existing Ordinance must have been intentional, and it seemed to him to be clear that the will aDd purpose of the Legislature were to limit the religious instruction to the simple reading of the Bible as commanded. He might state that the interpretation which he had given was that which was put on the Ordinance by the Education Board. MOTIONS. On the motion of Mr Macassey, to refer the petition of 827 Chinamen to a Select Committee, The Speaker said the petition was informal, and should be withdrawn. The Provincial Secretary thought it would not be right on the part of the Council to ignore the memorial, especially as he thought Warden Beetham would come out from such an inquiry Avith credit, and that the committee should be appointed. It having been decided to appoint a committee, Messrs Bradshaw, Innes, Bastings, Browne, M'Lean, Tolmie, and Macassey were elected. ENDOWMENT OF SCHOOLS. Mr M'Dermid moved— " That 500,000 acres of land be set aside as an endowment for common schools The Provincial Secretary pointed out that so rapidly were they setting aside reserves in all parts of the country, that by-and-by they should have the whole country tied up with reserves, and there would be the greatest difficulty iv securing land for settlement, prospecting, and other purposes. He thought it would be better to direct attention to getting the several reserves already granted put on a satisfactory footing, especially as the reserves already granted would bring in a revenue of between L 7,000 and LB.OOO per annum. Mr Reynolds moved, " The previous question." Mr Hutcheson would support the original motion, and thought that the majority of the Council were bound to support it by what passed the other day when the additional grant to the University was decided . It was then distinctly stated that no objection would be raised to an additional endowment for the common schools. The question being put, " That the question be now put," it was affirmed ; and the question being put on the original question, it also was affirmed. THE PETITION OF FREEHOLDERS AND RESIDENTS OF HAMPDEN. Mr Hutcheson moved — "That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to give effect to the petition of the freeholders and lesii dents of Hamden — namely, to set aside that portion of block XIII, as defined in the above-mentioned petition." The Provincial Secretary would oppose the motion. He would assure the Council, if they would go on setting aside tracts of land in terms of the petition in this particular case, aad in the way iv which hon. members seems inclined to do, there would not be a single acre to set aside long before the session was brought to a close. Several hon. members having spoken in support of the motion, the Council divided — ayes, 12 ; noes, 11. The motion was consequently carried. THE EDUCATION QUESTION. Mr Macassey moved the resolutions standing in his name, as follows: — "(1.) That this Council recognises the right of the Roman Catholic body to participate in the annual grant for; educational purposes. (2.) That the Government be requested to bring in a Bill to amend the Education Ordinances, with a view to provide for the distribution among Roman Catholic Schools of a just and fair proportion of the Educational Grant." He said he hoped the question would not be approached in a sectarian spirit, but that members would allow it to rise above party politics, as being one that affected the moral and social welfare of a large number of their fellow colonists. They were aware that during last session Mr Haughtoa tabled resolutions with substantially the same object as those he placed on the paper. That gentleman—who as & son of the Church, gave to the subject an amount of enthusiasm he (Mr Macassey) could not pretend to— only succeeded in carrying three votes in addition to his own ; while those voting on the opposite side numbered 23 votes. Three of the members who had voted for the motion had since resigned their seats, which had been filled by gentlemen holding opposite views ; whilst there was only one member in the Council who was connected with the Roman Catholic Church. He trusted, therefore, that the insignificant representation, so to speak, of the Roman Catholic body in the Council would cause hon. members to treat in a spirit of magnanimity a question concerning 7,500 of their fellow Colonists. Premising, by complaining that the Dunedin press had invariably taken one side of the educational question, and steadfastly refused to admit into their columns the arguments of leading men in England tending to prove the contrary of what had been frequently asserted, viz., that the denominational system of education had failed wherever it had been tried, the hon. member proceeded to state the difficulties Roman Catholics had to contend with. First, ministers of religion had attended election meetings, had canvassed the political views of candidates, and used their influence to guide public opinion in the matter of education. Further, Roman Catholics complained that tbe schoolmasters had been using their influence to turn the result of contested «lectioai against '&• Roman

Catholic body. (In proof of this statement the hon. member quot d from the Wahitip Mail and the Votes and Proceedings or the Council ) From these extracts few members would doubt that it was impossible for Roman Catholics to send their children to a school presided over by a teacber who preached such opposition to the guides of the Roman Catholic faith. It would be important for the Couu il to consider if they could ignore the m;inifesied feelings not merely of the Roman Catholics, who numbered 7400, but also the opinions of a very important section of the community — viz., the Church of England— and he thought he would be able to produce in the minds of members the conviction that in the main the views held by the members of the Church of England entirely coincided with the views of the Roman Catholic population. It would be seen from the extracts from " Hansard," which he read, that during the twelve months which had elapsed since the Council expressed its opinion upon the motion of Mr Haughton, the attention of the country and its leading men had been directed to the question of education ; and he was convinced that members would not, because they had voted against Mr Haughton's motion last year, and for the sake of appearing consistent, vote against the present resolutions. If they were satisfied that he had thrown additional light upon the controversy, they would not, he felt certain, for the sake of appearing consistent in the eyes of the outside world, refuse to grant what the Catholics now asked at their bauds. The hon. member then read extracts from speeches by Earl Derby, the Marquis of Salisbury, and others, which, he contended, were a complete answer to the assertion that denominationalism has failed wherever it had been tried ; and went on to show that the Church of England, by its general and diocesan Synods, advocated much the same views as the Roman Catholics. Hon. members would no doubt admit that our educational institutions were supported parti} by the contributions made to the Provincial revenue by Roman Catholics. Members would therefore admit the right of that body to enjoy a fair proportion of our teaching system, and he had no doubt members would go further and admit this : that not merely were Catholics entitled to send their children to school, but were also entitled to be represented in the governing bodies of our educational establishments. Could members conscientously admit that Catholics enjoyed those advantages which, in proportion to their numbers, they should enjoy ? He would take as a commencing point the constitution of the Otago University. They were unrepresented in it, while he believed he was correct in saying every member of the University Council was connected either with the English or Presbyterian Church. Contrast it with the JSlew Zealaud University Council, In the latter the Catholics were represented by Bishop Croke and Dr Grace, while there was a gentleman in the Council, who was by marriage connected with a Roman Catholic family. The Roman t atholies were unrepresented in the Education Board, and as they could not, by reason of their comparative numerical iuteriority, I ever have a strong representation in the Provincial Council, it seemed to be an inevitable certainty that they would never have a voice in the management of the schools of the Province. And owing to there being no representation of minorities, it followed that the appoiatment of school comantees depended on the voices of those whose faith was not that of the Roman Catholics. Passing from that to schoolmasters, he found that of the School teachers three were ministers, he might take it for granted they were not Roman Catholic priests. In his opinion the appointment of ministers of religion as teachers was open to very grave objectiou, and he directed members' attention to the Education Report for 1871, in order to show what a dangerous system would be encouraged if ministers of religion were to undertake the management of schools. The hon. member concluded by inviting members, if tbey were desirous of retainiug the present system, to concede to the Roman Catholics their just claims, which he had so feebly advocated on their behalf. (Mr Macassey resumed his seat amid cheers.)

Mr Armstrong seconded the resolutions. It appeared to him that a portion of the colonists, from conscientious scruples, were unable to avail themselves of our educational system, and it would be a pity that such a respectable minority should labor under any disadvantages. Roman Catholics, if they got their fair share of the funds, were willing to have their schools inspected by the Govern went Inspector as to the secular instruction imparted in them. He thought it would be only dealing fairly towards them to carry the resolutions. If his memory served him right, the Scriptures said, "Religion is the salt of the earth." Would hon. members allow it to be settled that the rising generation should be fed without salt all the week, and have nothing but salt on Sundays.— (Loud laughter.)

The Provincial Solicitor said that he desired to look into the question with what he called judicial impartiality— not from one side, but simply to ascertain what was good for all, for he recognised every sect in the community as being entitled to stand on common ground in regard to this matter. For that reason he dissented from the resolutions. His objections to them were not based on the basis that he wa3 opposed to Roman Catholics ; but because they introduced the spirit of denominationalism into our educational system. The experiment of denominationalism had been tried, and utterly failed : and the present condition of education in England was a proof of it. Secular education had been designated as godless ; but, as had been said by a Scotch judge, there ■was nothing godless about ignorance. The great amount of godless ignorance that existed in England was owing to the want of ability in the denominational system in. coping with the great social problem now laid before them. Denominationalisin would tend to disunite and alienate the future people of the state who were otherwise inclined to act in harmony with each other. It could not be supported from proportionate rates and endowments, because a common fund could only be used for a common purpose. Common schools open to all could only follow from ,a ■ national system of education. Another objection was this : — First, every denomination to have a school of its own, would require a rate proportionate to its educational requirements. It was stated that the last census showed showed that there 99 sects in the Province, and therefore it was impossible each could have a school of its ownj or raise a rate sufficient for its requirements. It was theretore a political impossibility to carry on denominationalism out of a common purse. While paying a high tribute to the zeal of the Roman Catholic clergy, he said one of the principal benefits derivable from unsectarian education was that the teacher were entirely free from the interference of any clergy whatever As to the teachers in our schools, the policy should be not to make the test a religious one. The man who possessed the highest educational qualifications, whether Catholic er Protestant, should receive the appointment of teacher. One Catholic teacher had been intheemploy of the Dunedin School Committee ; and he had no hesitation in saying that so long as he was a member of the committee, and so far as he could, that whenever a. vacancy occurred, the best qualified individual should receive the appointment,

In reference to what the hon. mover had said as to the exclusion of Roman Catholics from representation from the government of our schools, he might inform the hon. member of a fact of which he might not be aware, that a Roman Catholic gentleman had been returned as a member of the Dunedm School Committee ; and he (Mr Bathgate) had great pleasure in stating that he had always acted with that gentleman, and there had never been the smallest particle of difference between them. Another strong objection, to denominationalism was that its motive piwer was religious zeal ; and history taught what had been the effect of that power. His final objection was based on this contention, that though a thing might be found necessary in Great Britian, it did not follow as a necessity that it was tlie right thing for us. We must consider our own surroundings and our own peculiar circumstances. One of the results of denominationalism which could not be felt so much in the old country, but which would be felt in an immeasurable degree here — and he regarded it as the strongest fault of the system— was that it involvod an enormous waste of power — in other words, they would have in any one district two schools indifferently attended, where one good school would have sufficed.

Mr Thomson was disappointed with the hon. mover's speech, which was not exactly the speech he would have expected, seeing the terms of the resolution, or which he anticipated, seeing that the hon member asked the House to approve of the justness of Reman Catholics participating in any annual grant that might be made for educational purposes Instead of putting forward arguments to support the justness of that claim, the speech was to a large extent one on the merits of denominationalism. Instead of bringing forward arguments of his own, he bad given to the House the opinions of the Earl of Derby and other gentlemen, including those of the Rev. Mr Stanford. In pursuing that line of argument he was injuring his own cause. What was the objection to what was asked for by the resolutions? Simply that by adopting the course suggested it led to denominatioualism. For his part he was quite willing, if he could see his way to doing so — to make provision for removing causes of discontent on the part of Roman Catholics. But to do so would be to break up the education system. (Mr Macassey : How would you assist them ?) He would be willing to j consider some well digested scheme — perhaps i a scheme brought forward by the hon. gentleman — for the purpose of redressing those grievances. He felt bound in self-defence, as a Protestant parent, to oppose the establishment of denominationalism. In after life the children of Roman Catholics and his children might mix together, and the former being better instructed in religious opinions than his (Mr Thomson's) children, the latter might fall away from their own opinions. — (Laughter.) However, there could be no question about this : the establishment of denominationalism meant the breaking up of our present system. (Mr Armstrong : I would draw the hon. member's atteutiou to tike fact that tha Roman Catholics have already established schools in the Province ) He would just refer to the amendment, which affirmed that the ustablishment of a purely secular system would remove all grounds of complaint. He (Mr Thomson) did not think it would ; for they had the assurance of Bishop Moran that improve the present system .as they would, Roman Catholics would not take advantage of it. He intended to oppose both the motiou and amendment.

Mr M'Glashan would oppose the motion* He believed in the first place that the Council would only be doing its duty in affirming that justice ought to be done .to the Roman Catholics and all other persuasions ; but at the same time, seeing that the General AsBembly was about to deal with the question of education, he thought it inopportune on the part ©f the Council to bring a new Bill at the present time. He had at one time been in favor of what was known as aided schools ; but lately he had had reason to change his views. (Applause). He vow thought it would be manifestly unjust to have aided schools in the Province j and for bis own part he thought there was no other way of getting out of the difficulty but by going in for a purely secular education. A simple secular education should be given in the national schools, leaving it to the clergy of various persuasions in each district to give children religious instruction at their own convenience. If they wished to carry on this educational system without strife and heartburnings, they must have secular education.

Mr Reid's endeavor would be to refute a few of the arguments brought forward by the hon. member for Waikai i. First, with regard to his complaint against ministers taking part in recent election, he totally differed from the opinion held by the hon. member. Why should ministers be debai red from exercising their civil rights 1 He rather looked upon it as being their duty, seeing that they might be assumed to have superior intelligence, to endeavor to guide public opinion in their several districts, in what they considered the right channel. So with schoolmasters. They had as much right to exercise their influence in elections as professional canvassers. As to the hon. member's other complaint, he was quite prepared to admit that Roman Catholics were not exercising an influence in regard to educational matters, that they should exercise in proportion to their numbers. Would that be secured by the aided schools clauses? He said they would utterly fail to do so. With denominationalism, a majority could place a minority under a domination far more intolerable than anything that existed in the .Province underthe present system. The hon. member proceeded to reason that because Roman Catholics asked for separate grants it could not be assumed that other denominations would do so. But he (Mr Reid) said they would be compelled to do so in self-defence. He thought the Council was willing to subml\ t° a L ? reat deal for the sake ot harmony, aad for his part he would have gone a great way to have secured it ; b.ut he did not think the Council was quite prepared to allow the common schools to become Roman Catholic or be submitted to Roman Catholic supervision, for the sake of peace. He was prepared to have met them with a secular system, in favor of which he considered the logical deduction from Mr Macassey's areument went ; but they had it from Dr Moran ? m Ohurch would n ofc be centent with it. rhe best plan was to relegate the matter to the Assembly, where it would be considered on its merits in a very short time. Mr Mervyii moved the following amendm<S : 7\' Th , at this Council recognises the ngnt of all classes of the community being placed upon an equal footing, and participate equally in the advantages of our educational system. 2nd. That the Government be requestedto bring in a "Bill to amend the Education Ordinances so as to remove all just cause of complaint on the part of the Catholic portion of the community, and to make the system purely secular. " Dr. Menzies considered Roman Catholics could make no claim for aid from an ecclesiastical point of view, but simply as citizens. The duty of the State was not to perpetuate sectarian differences, but to give to the rising generation an education that would make them good citizens, and allow them to understand how to recognise their rights and privileges as such.

Mr Reynolds answered Mr Maccassey's strictures on the constitution of the Otago University. He looked upon it that th« selection of members of the University CounciJ did not depend on the qualification of any particular denomination, but on the qualification of the individual members to the management of University affairs. Messrs umsden and M'Lean opposed the resolutions. The Hon. Mr Bell moved the adjournment of the debate. The Hon. Mr Holmes seconded the motion pro forma, mainly with the view of enabling him to give notice of his intention to move the following amendment at the proper time : " That this Council recognises the right of all classes in the community to participate in the grant for educational purposes, and the Council is of opinion that this can be secured only by the adoption of a purely national system of education. The motion to adjourn, the debate was carried.