PARLIAMENTARY.

Thames Star, Volume XII, Issue 3919, 21 July 1881, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY.

(Pee Press Association.)

Wellington, Wednesday, i NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE CON'JINUED. CROWN AND NATIVE LANDS BATING BILL. Mr Levistani spoke against the Government proposals. They were of a nature which could not possibly recommend them to the country. To his mind they suggested the worst form of legislation that could possibly be conceived, They appeared to have been forced on the Government in pretty much the same way as retrenchment had been forced on it last session, and, like retrenchment, local government appeared to have been most clumsily devised. The secret of good local government was to set aside a fund for the use of the localities, the same to be distributed in accordance with some well digested scheme, leaving these bodies to expend the money to the best advantage. He concurred to a great extent in the scheme sketched by Mr Saunders, believing that Provincialism might be so modified as to suit all their requirements. He would vote against the Government. Mr Collins spoke in favour of the Government. The colony had, under its administration, required its social and political strength, and if the no confidence vote was successful, it would mean a return to many of the evils from which they had escaped. Government proposals were not revolutionary. They were simply an endeavor to make the institutions they had more efficient. To ask them to return to Provincialism was simply to ask them to disinter a fossilised animal and feast on its carcase. After reviewing Mr Saunders' proposals, he said the .Roads Construction Bill would provide a great boon, inasmuch as it would enable outlying districts to secure a fair and equitable share of the expenditure.' Mr Turnbull spoke in opposition, contending that the improved state of the colony was not due to Ministers, but to its own elastic resources. Te Wheoro strongly condemned the proposed rating of native lands. The Bill was a master which would swallow up the laDds of the natives. The Bill should be called the Mortgaging and Confiscating of Native Lands Bill. What the natives wanted was the power to manage their own affairs. Tawhai objected strongly to native lands being taxed. The conduct of Major Atkinson, reminded him of that of Ahab in entering Naboth's vineyai'd. The Bill should have a, millstono tied to it and be thrown into the sea 10U0 miles from JSew Zealand, so as to be no more heard of. He would vote for Mr Ormond's amendment. Mr Wakefield thought that it was to be regretted that the native members had been so misled as to the nature of the bill, when there were so many members able to have given them correct information. He and others on that side of the House, who had endeavoured to raise the question of local government during the early part of the session, entirely repudiated the action now taken by Mr Ormond, who had associated himself with members who cared nothing for local government, but simply wished to oust or damage the Government, and who advocated the restoration of Provincialism. The proposals of Government were the most reasonable and statesmanlike in the direction of local government yet made, and therefore he supported them, and opposed the proposals of Sir George Grey and Mr Ormond's amendment. Ormond's chief objection to the Government proposal was that they would stereotype the County system he had himself established in 1876. Mr Ormond s admission that he then made a tnstake was creditable to his candour, but was not likely to inspire confidence in his statesmanship, or to make people regard him as a safe guide in politics. Next year he might find his present action a mistake. He accused Mr Ormond of acting unfairly in bringing the amendment forward without informing Ministers although he believed he had informed the Opposition, and entered into an intrigue to defeat the Government. Mr Ormond positively denied the statement. He had not informed any member of the Opposition of his intentions. Mr Wakefield said Mr Ormond's object seemed to have been to bully Government into doing what he wanted under the penalty of being turned out. For himself he would have preferred to see Government propose a bolder scheme to establish' local bodies on a permanent basis with greatly enlarged powers, but the proposals made tended in that direction, and therefore he accepted them. He had not originally liked the County system, but he admitted it had in many respects worked excellently. Had Government proposals been allowed to proceed without being intercepted by Mr Ormond's amendment, they might have been moulded into excellent form, or else withdrawn after full discussion, which would have afforded material for preparing a better scheme during the recess. If the amendment was carried, a dissolution would take place without redistribution of seats. Ormond must have known this would be the effect. He ridiculed the idea of Mr Ormond being able to form a Ministry out of the Opposition under the present circumstances. After tracing the successful aduiistratiou of the present

Government, especially in native affairs, he declared hi*, belief that it would be a great disaster to the country if they were turned out on such an issue as the present one, which they would be justified in placing before the country as an issue between restoring Provincialism and placing local bodies on a better footing, with large and well defined powers On the issue, and with their successful administration to refer to, the Government could safely, with all confidence, go to the country, but he would advise them not to go to the country, but to resign, and throw on Mr Ormond the responsibility of trying to govern the country better than they had done. Mr Ormond said Mr Wakefield and Mr McLean had accused him of having been in confidential relations with the G-overn- j ment this session. He absolutely denied I this. Before the session, when addressing his constituents, he had clearly defined his position towards them. He had never given them any reason to believe he was a supporter. Major Atkinson said he entirely disagreed with this statement. Mr Wakefield said be had made the assertion on what he believed was entirely reliable information. Mr McLean said he had understood Mr Ormond to be a Government supporter" Mr Rolleston said he had been on intimate terms with Mr Ormond, and cer tainly the nature of these communications caused him much surprise, when he found Mr Ormond in the position he had now taken up.

LATER.

Wellington, This day. The debate continued by Mr Eeader Wood, who, after replying to a number of Mr Wakefield's remarks, said if Mr Ormond had not moved an amendment, he would hare done so. Last year the Government had withdrawn or dropped all these proposals without either going to the country or residing, and why could they not do so ago again when they found how very distasteful these proposals were. However, the passage of the present Bill was now impossible, whatever the fate of the amendment was; and as for the consequences, sufficient for tlie duy was the evil thereof. The question of local government was evidently not in Ministers original programme for the session, as it was not mentioned in the Governor's speech, and like retrenchment last session, it had been forced on them, or had been brought in for an election cry. As to all that had been said about Ministers settling the native difficulty, and Tawhiao's submission, he had received the following telegram from an influential member of the King party:—" Do not believe anything you see in newspapers, or what you are told from the Government or any other person. At the end of the movement you will know further. 1' He opposed the Government proposals because they really meant further taxation and further borrowing, and he denied the truth of the statement about the prosperous state of the colony. Wages had fallen, and yet there were unemployed —money could not find profitable investment. Hating Crown lands by taxing the people, to pay the people the rates on their own lands, and rating native lands held under native title, he considered unjust. The proposed subsidies or grants of £3 for £1 were purely imaginary, as there were no funds out of which to pay the money, and was only an alternative between more borrowing and further taxation, and meant complete stagnation so far as the North. Island, at least, was concerned. He intended to bring down a resolution in favor of devoting £200,000 out of the remains of the Public Works Fund to open up the Crown lauds estates, which it had cost a million to purchase, by constructing roads and bridges. This would render the land available for settlement, and provide a continuous land fund to repay the cost of the purchases. He would allocate £50,000 for JNorth Auckland and £50,000 to Wellington, and so on, but none to Taranaki, which had already had too much. This money he would leave to the local bodies to expend. Mr Oliver said he had never known a Ministry threatened with defeat on sucli a paltry issue. Had the old Provincial system continued in existence the colony would now be bankrupt. He strongly opposed any return to it in any shape, and he warmly supported the Government proposals. If a dissolution took place now without a redistribution of represention, another dissolution would be necessary in six months, and for all this cost and trouble Mr Ormond would be responsible. Mr Beetkam moved the adjournment, and the House rose at 12.15.