House of Representatives.

Thames Guardian and Mining Record, Volume I, Issue 39, 21 November 1871, Page 3

House of Representatives.

Monday, November 8. A SCENE IN THE HOUSE. NEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY ACT REPEAL BILL. On the motion for the second reading of this bill an acrimonious debate, altogether foreign to the matter of it 7 took place, the chief speakers being Mr Stafford, Mr Fox, Mr Rolleston, and. Mr Vogel. The keynote for the opposing forces to assail each other was given when Mr Bathgate proposed the following motion previous to the House going into committee on the bill :—“ That it be an instruction to the committee to so amend the bill as to make it a repeal of the University Act, 1870, and the House gives this instruction on the understanding that, if during the present session the bill is not passed, the House requests the Government to withhold the payment of any portion of the £3OOO voted for the New Zealand University . beyond the Amount required to discharge the liabilities incurred to date.

Mr Gillies took the opportunity of denying the statement made by Mr Fitzherbert, and repeated by the Govern ment, that the Opposition had signed a written compact. He stated that the whole- thing was untrue. That there was a written request, asking the lion, member for Timaru to lead the Opposition, was quite true, and he thought it was something for that lion, member to he proud of. [The Opposition had taunted Ministers with internal divisions and disagreements, accusations which were returned with retorted scorn. Mr Gillies concluded his remarks by stating that whatever divisions had existed in other ministries, “ the present was the first Ministry that had ever washed its dirty linen in the presenc e of the House.” The Board of Exainiiuers having been alluded to by Mr Fox in connection with their duties, and the probability of their having to examine a few individuals who chose to form thenaselves into a debating society, for the culture of the “ barking” style of oratory (a.lludiug to Mr Reid) that gentleman follow ed.] Sir Reid said he was sure the House would thank the Premier for his lecture, ami for his exhibition of his rhetorical powers, thought if lie were compelled »o make a comparison between the lion, gentleman and the Maori members, that the latter would show to much advantage. He thought if there was one member more than another whose conduct had brought the proceedings of the House into utter contempt, it was the conduct of the lion, member who presumed to the position of leading member of the Government. The lion, member for the City West had said there was no written compact binding the Opposition, but there was a written request signed by a conj siderablc number of the members of the i House, and of that he thought the lion, j member for Timaru might well feel proud, j He felt sure that was conduct which • would not be exhibited to any single mcnii her of the Government from their supporters. He would again ask to what was that support of the Government attributable ? i It was attributable to the manner of their | manipulation of the public money ; but the Government would find, as soon as they ceased to expend the public money in such a manner as they had done, their supporters would rapidly dwindle away. Mr Y ogel : That is an insinuation against the character of the House which the hon. member should be ashamed of, and should at once withdraw. I move that IhtworcU be taken down.

Mr. Reid : I myself insist that the words be taken down, because I intend to repeat them. If it were not for the large appropriations at the disposal of the Government they would not have that large support which they had received. He would state further that it had been 'asserted in the public "newspapers of the colony that because certain members had not supported the Government, they had been told they need not expect any share of the loaves and fishes—that they were not likely to get any just share of the public moneys expended in, their districts. A majority obtained on such terms, was a majority intended to be used against the interest of the country. Such a system of administration was the most reprehensible that could he adopted in any country, namely, that those 'districts, the representatives of which did not support the Government should be punished by withholding from their fair share of the expenditure of public money. Mr. Vogel would state, for the satisfaction of lion, members, that the Government altogether repudiated ; having made any such threats. It might be satisfactory to hon. members to know that the Government intended to expend the money voted entirely regardless of the opinions of the members of particular districts. There was evidence of that in the fact that they were pushing on works in the province of Canterbury, the Superintendent of which province had uniformly opposed the Government in the House, and the same was the case with the Nelson province. The Government had shown every desire to attend to the requirements of those provinces, and to all other districts. The statement was without foundation, and was entirely incorrect. He regretted that the hon. member should have made himself the mouthpiece for the circulation for such untruths.

Mr. Mervyn must state to tin House that he had been informed by the Government whip, Mr. Haughton, that he must expect nothing from the Government if he (lid not support them. The statement was made publicity in the vicinity of the House and he could recognize that such really was the case after what had taken place in the House during the present session. Mr. Haughton (who had been absent) asked to be allowed to say a few words, as he was out of the House while the lion, member for Mount Ida was speaking. The hon. member had stated that he (Mr. Haughton) had told him, in the precincts of the House, that any member who opposed the Government would get no assistance towards the carrying out of public works. He could only say that he had no recollection of saying anything of the kind. He had alluded, as a joke, to the case of Mr. J. C. Brown, and many other instances of the same character. He was quite sure that any district having such a representative as the hon. member for Mount Ida should not have any further burdens placed upon its hack. That fact in itself was sufficient evidence that it would have quite enough to hear. Mr Macandrew was present on the occasion alluded to by the bon. member for Mount Ida, and he looked upon all that took place as chaff. Mr Mervyn : It was nothing of the kind. Mr Shepherd said there was no doubt that the lion member for Wakatipu was in the habit of trying to get members round in his chaffing way. • They knew very well that the hon gentleman fancied he was very witty and funny. He had no doubt the statement of the hon member for Mount Ida was correct; in fact it had been corroborated. They were well acquainted with the hon member’s style. They had a taste of it in the House on Saturday, when he used those cowardly means— The Speaker : The hon member must not make use of those words. Mr Shepherd : Very well, sir, I won’t make use of the words iflhey are unparliamentary, hut if they were parliamentary those are the words I* should use. He would not even go so far as to call the hon member a political jackal.— Mr Haughton : That’s better than being a political jackass. Mr Shepherd : I do not doubt, sir, that the hon member did make use of such a statement to the hon member for Mount Ida, hut I believe he lias gone beyond his province. Ido not believe the Government intended him to go so far. The motion of Mr Bathgate was carried on division, the numbers being 32 against 14.

The motion for going into committee was then put. Mr Rolleston objected to going into committee on such a resolution. It wa% highly objectionable to see Ministers agreeing to a rcsoluion which recommended that they should break the law. Such a course appeared incredible to him. Mr Stafford had great pleasure in supporting tlie action of the hon gentleman who had just sat down, but there was one thing in which he could not concur with him, namely his surprise at the opposition of two members of the Goveenment. The hon gentleman should have known that those two gentlemen were lost to all sense of shame, and had abandoned all sense of propriety. After what lie had seen, how could the hon gentleman be surprised ? Those two Ministers would tear to rags every fragment of the law that stood in their way. There was no shame in them. Mr Y 7 ogel thought the hon members opposite were making the proceedings ridiculous in the eyes of the House and the country. The thirty-two members who had voted with the Government on this question did not wish them to do anything illegal. Clause 15 of the Bill admitted of very wide interpretation, and the Government would take proper means to ascertain what was the proper interpretation to be put upon it. He might mention to the hon member that it was possible they might meet again before the eud of the financial year, and that would be before the time when the amount would have to be paid. He could assure the House that the Government did not intend to break the law, as the hon member for Avon feared.

In committee the bill was opposed by Mr. Rolleston, Mr. Gillies, Mr. Brandon, Mr. Andrew, Mr. Stafford, and other members to the number of nine. Every motion and amendment was opposed, divisions being called for at every stage. Having passed through committee, the amendments made ‘ sVerc - agreed to by the House, and on the motion for the third reading being put, Mr Gillies said lie wished to put on record his opinion again'rt the manner in Ivhieh the proceedings in connection with this bill had been cot.duett ,( h He, for one, would not be a party to instructing the Government to do an ille i ac t« He would direct attention to tee course adopted by the Government on’ the bill. One minister brought forward the hill, another opposed it. and then the member in charge of it left it to the meml who opposed it to carry it through the .House. The bill had obtained precedence other business as a Government measure, and now it turned out, by its being oppo sed by a member of the Government, that it was not a Government measure at all. Tire Government had denied that they were led by one member of the Ministry, but lie

thought, after what they had seen in the House, everybody must look upon the Colonial Treasurer as the moving spirit of the Government. The transaction which had just been coiCpleted was equally disgraceful to the House and the Government. Mr. Vogel : Sir, I move that those words be taken down. Mr. Stafford (derisively) : I second the motion with the greatest of pleasure. The Speaker : Will the hon. member state what the words were. Mr. Vogel : The words used wore “That nothing can be more disgraceful to the House than the procedure of tlio Government on the bill.” Mr. Gillies repeated the words, slightly altered. ” The Speaker : Does the hon. member desire to proceed any further with the matter ? Mr. Vooel had no desire to press the matter, but he hoped the hon member would he more guarded in his expressions. Mr. Stafford : I object to the matter being allowed to drop. It is now incumbent on the lion member, or some hon member, to make a motion. Mr. Vogel : I do not intend to make any motion. The hon member Las now, in a very clever way, withdrawn the offensive words made use of in his speech. The Speaker : Then the hon member may proceed. Mr. Gillies must repeat that the proceedings of that day were not of a character to raise the credit of the House, or to give it a very high reputation for wisdom or judgment in the eyes of the people of New Zeland ; nor had the proceeding of the Government been such as to render them a good precedent for their future guidance, much less to give any confidence in a Government that brought forward a bill with one hand and endeavoured to destroy it with the other. Mr. Fox said lie had no doubt lion members on the other side were much disappointed and he could make considerable allowance for their feelings. As to the hon member’s remarks, why the Government took them as the highest tribute that their conduct had been what it should be. Nothing could be greater praise than the hon member’s bad opinion. He would be very sorry if the members on the other side of the House had spoken of the Government in any other terms, because then they would really be under the impression that they had done something wrong. Mr. Rolleston explained that; he was sony that it should be necessary for him to take the course he had taken in dividing the House so often when in Committhe, hut he did it simply to mark his sense of the conduct of the Government.

Mr. Vogel said, in.respect to the hill, he was sorry that the hon member had cast such aspersions on the conduct of the Government. The resolulion was simply an expression of opinion that the liabilities of the Council of the University should he paid, and that they were desirous to economise by saving a sum of money which need not be expended. The bill was then read a third time.