DAIRY PRODUCE.

Taranaki Daily News, 7 October 1922, Page 7

DAIRY PRODUCE.

THE CONTROL SCHEME PROPOSALS OUTLINED. TO TARANAKI FARMERS. INFORMATION SOUGHT. As an outcome of the meeting at New Plymouth on September 22 of dairy farmers opposed to the proposed dairy produce control scheme, Mr. W. Grounds (chairman of the committee which drafted the Bill now before Parliament) addressed a further meeting yesterday. Some 31 factories were represented, and following Mr. Grounds’ remarks a keen discussion took place for add against the proposal. The opinion was fairly unanimous that it was neceseary to do something to improve present conditions, but strong exception was taken to the hasty manner in which it was declared the matter was being dealt with. It was announced that a copy of the Bill had been forwarded to each dairy factory. The following resolution was passed: “That this meeting considers that, as a copy of the Bill is being supplied to each dairy company, time should be given to suppliers for full consideration before any further steps are taken.”

Mr. A. Morton, president of the National Dairy Association, was elected to the chair, and on the platform, besides Mr. Grounds, were Messrs. J. S. Connett and Jacob Marks, Taranaki members of the proposed council, and Mr. T. C. Brash, secretary of the committee.

Mr. J. S. Connett, after reading tne notice convening the meeting, stated that it had been called because the committee was desirous of putting all possible information before them; also because a desire for it had been expressed at the meeting held a week or two previously. In addition to inviting Mr. Grounds, chairman of the control committee, invitations had been forwarded to the members of Parliament for the district, but apologies for non-attend-ance had been received from Messrs. R. Masters, W. T. Jennings. 0. Hawken; and S. G. Smith, M.P.’s. Mr. S. G. Smith, M.P., had, however, forwarded a copy of the actual Bill, which arrived by the mail the previous evening, ard was now in the hands of Mr. Groun Is. As the meeting had been called by the Wellington committee he moved that Mr. Morton take the chair. This was seconded by Mr. F. Ranford. Mr. A. Morton considered that as there might be a little personal feeling introduced into the meeting, it might be much better if he did not act. He was, however, willing to give all the assistance possible. Mr. Connett expressed the wish that Mr. Morton should take the chair, and this was carried.

OPPOSITION IN TARANAKI. Mr. Morton explained that the meeting had been called to give them the opportunity of hearing all that could be laid before them of the proposal. He regretted that he was unable to attend the previous meeting, which, however, had been addressed by Mr. J. S. Connett, and it had been decided that a further meeting would be held after the Bill had been printed and circulated. In order to afford the fullest information Mr. Grounds, chairman of the committee, had been invited to explain the principles of the Bill, and the need for it. In introducing Mr. Grounds, he said they would find him a capable, impartial and straight-forward gentleman, who would give a clear exposition of the Bill and the urgent necessity of bringing the same down in order that some better system of control might be obtained over our produce. Mr. Grounds was a representative of a factory in the extreme north of New Zealand, and was able and ready to look at the position from all points of view, and. would be found exceedingly reasonable. As far as the speaker was aware there was very little question raised against the scheme except in North Taranaki, where there appeared to be a certain amount of suspicion and distrust as to the motive and principle of the Bill, and what might happen under the working of it. He thought that Mr. Grounds would be able to clear away any misunderstandings between the producers and the committee.

Mr. Grounds, who was greeted with applause, after acknowledging ’ his reception, said that he never anticipated when he left home in order to see the business through that he would have to come to Taranaki to be speaking to his own people on the merits of the scheme. He quite expected, that he would have to do battle with those who were interested in maintaining the system, or rather, lack of system, under which thay were working at present, but he never thought he would have to battle with his own people. He found himself. therefore, in rather an invidious position. He wished to make it clear to them at the outset that he was not there to plead with them to allow the committee to undertake this great task in the interest of the Industry, but he was there to plead with them as fellow members of the dairying industry and explain to them the reason of the position, which as representatives of the industry they were endeavoring to make good.

MONTHLY SALES SCHEME. He congratulated them on the excellent reports of the various meetings held that he found in the papers, which were much fuller than lie had anticipated finding in any provincial paper. It had, he said, been stated that tne committee had been self-appointed. Well, he wished to review the position quite dispassionately, and he would like them to understand that he never associated personalities with opinions. It had further been stated that it had been understood that the pool proposal had been dropped. Yes, it had been dropped, definitely dropped, as submitted to the conference at Palmerston, but while a desire to improve the conditions of the industry by representatives of the industry lived, that desire could never be dropped. He pointed out that at that conference the South Island delegates brought forward a plan for monthly auction sales. All the representatives of the North Island, however, were quite convinced that would be a distinctly retrograde step, only tending to increase rather than decrease the speculation

that was going on in their produce. Consequently the whole position was referred back to the committee to reconsider. At the first meeting of that committee, to the surprise of the North Island representatives, the South Island representatives turned down the monthly auction sales proposal, which had been introduced in their interests. The North Island representatives, having already decided that the scheme was no use to them, welcomed that decision. Tn justification of the action of the South Island representatives, he said that their decision had been arrived at after they had circulated their factories asking for guarantees in favour of the proposal, and had only had 600 tons guaranteed. NEED FOR QUICK ACTION. After full discussion, the committee resolved that it was necessary to institute some form of control in the interests of the industry, and a smaller sub-committee was set up to make investigations on the lines of the meat control and. report to a further meeting. That meeting was held on August 29, after full details had been obtained from members of the Meat Control Board, the Prime Minister, and members of Parliament, and it was decided that a conference of all dairy factories should be called as soon as possible while Parliament was sitting so as to decide on some system of control on the lines of the Meat Control Act. That meeting was called, of necessity hastily, because it was realised that unless they did so it would be too late to get legislation through Parliament this session, and as next session would be the first session of a new Parliament, when usually there was little prospect of getting new legislation put through, two years would elapse before they would be able to do anything in the interests of the industry, and in the present disorganised marketing conditions of the world they felt that two years could not be allowed to elapse. He recognised that at this season of the year it was difficult to get dairy farmers to go to Wellington, but he pointed out that the dairy factories in the far distant north had, by the issue of circulars, made the reason for urgency clear and been able to make arrangements to be represented either in person or by proxy, so that the factories situated nearer Wellington should not have needed to complain of the lack of sufficient notice. He knew, and frankly acknowledged, that the committee had not been altogether blameless in the position it had taken up at the beginning of the meeting. The position should have been more clearly defined to the factories. He, however, appealed to them to look beyond trivial incidents of that sort to the full soul of the question. He had noted many of the lines of opposition that had been taken by the critics, and heartily agreed with the observations of some of them. Some were merely the result of misunderstandings, but some of the critics were talking too lightly about free trade and handing farms over to the Government’s control. There was no suggestion of handing control over to the Government. They wanted to establish a system where the industry would be controlled in the interests of the industry and be free from Government control, but they recognised that in the interests of the community the Government had a perfect right to claim representation on the board. It had also been claimed . that by adopting the system factories would sink their individuality, but the only way for anyone to maintain his individuality under present conditions would be to go to the loneliest island, where he would come in contact with no one. Primitive instincts had to be sacrificed if they wished to enjoy to the fullest their liberties and rights as a people.

TOOLEY STREET CONCERNS. One speaker defended the English distributing concerns, and he was not at .variance with anyone in questioning the integrity of those houses, whose high standard he knew. They were keen business men. It was a rather strange thing, and it struck him as rather humorous, that those who were endeavoring to improve their own position should be called upon to defend Tooley Street against their own people. He recited an instance that occurred a couple of days ago when a representative of a London house informed him that the New Zealand trade would not pay them except in conjunction with the Canadian trade. Could they, he asked, find five working farmers who would think that those established English houses would continue a business that was not paying them! The scheme was not opposed to houses whose integrity was undoubted, as long as these houses could render service to the industry. It would be madness to offer to turn them aside. They, however, wanted to be in a position to judge how far they were of service to the industry, and to suggest when they could see, as the result of experience, that improvements could be made. Only by the result of consolidation wouid they be able to do that.

Regarding the suggestion that they were out to set the market, he said that only fools would dream of bemg able to set the market. Only the spending power of the people could do this, and to think of juggling with the economic forces would be madness. He could assure them that they did not intend to establish a fictitious method of dealing with a stable product. Anyone could see how childish it would be to attempt to do anything of the sort, but this was a genuine attempt at chaperonage, as it were, of the rather mystic but yet all-powerful law of supply and demand. They knew in regard to supply and demand the value of intelligent organisation. It was possible for an unprecedented demand to exist alongside of the supply without either benefiting, and he instanced the case of the starving millions in Europe, whilst the meat stores here were full of meat which was hardly worth the freight to take it to the other side of the world.

MARKETS DISORGANISED. Again, there were millions of people requiring clothes, while wool here was worth a few pence per pound. He knew the position could be followed out through the questions of exchange and credits, but they got back to the one basic fact that at present the markets right throughout the world were disorganised. They must, therefore, bestir themselves and see that they created satisfactory channels between those with the demand and those with the supply, or they would never get anywhere. He hoped they realised that the essence of the position was supply and demand, and that organisation played a very essential part. He noted that they all agreed that there was room for some improvement. In the report of one of the meetings

a buyer’s representative stated that there was room for some improvement in regulating the supply of butter on the market. Many of their opponents objected to some side issue, but missed the main object of the movement. It had been stated at one meeting that, what had been done had been “cut and dried,” but he wanted them to understand that this was not so. The scheme was founded on the enlightened experience of the whole of the board. While it was necessary for dairy farmers to preserve an open mind on the question until the whole evidence was before them, it was more important that those on the control board should keep an open mind until they gathered in all information from all possible quarters. He stressed the need for unanimity among dairy farmers, stating that all should be part of a concrete whole. The committee, he said, went into the task quite cognisant of its magnitude, but with confidence that with the backing of the industry they would be able to achieve their aim.

Continuing, Mr. Grounds mentioned that as far as criticism of the Bill was concerned it was mainly confined to North Taranaki, and if he had been told that he would have had to come here to speak to them to consolidate their own interests he did not know what he would have said. It had been stated in criticism that the fneeting in Wellington was not representative ox all the factories. It had been stated that only 157 factories voted out of the 500 in the Dominion. A mere count of heads in that way might greatly misrepresent the position. As a matter of fact those factories which voted for the proposal represented 70,000 tons of the dairy export produce of the Dominion, out of a total of 130,000 tons, while there were only 7000 represented in votes against the proposition. Further, he was not breaking any confidence in saying that every day they were receiving letters from factories not represented at that meeting endorsing the proposal.

It seemed to him entirely unnecessary that he should take up their time that day in explaining the provisions of the Bill. It had been generally expected throughout the district that the Bill would be circulated before that meeting was held, but the copy he had came into his hands only last night. A committee had been set .up as requested by the meeting of Taranaki producers recently, and he might say that his committee had not objected to it. They had nothing to hide, and welcomed any criticism of the measure. If any of the critics could show any improvements they would be gladly accepted, but they did not mean to allow things to drift. The only effective way of getting these things through was to take them m both hands and go through with them. (Applause). CONTROL THE MAIN POINT. The essential point of the whole Bill was control of the produce for export. The other clauses dealt with the establishment of the board, on which the Government had made arrangements for the inclusion of two nominees so that they could be represented. The only other noteworthy alteration from the draft Bill which was submitted to Parliament was the inclusion of a clause regarding conferring with the Meat Control Board with reference to shipping meat and dairy produce. The position from the dairy farmers' point of view was considerably strengthened by the inclusion of that clause, and the committee warmly welcomed it. Apart from that there was no material change from the draft Bill. The Bill provided for the establishment of a London agency, co-operation with the Meat Board regarding shipping, and, ot course, for the necessary levy with which to carry on. It had been suggested that the only thing which was inducing the committee to push on the movement was the hope of obtaining fat jobs. That was a libel on the composition of the committee, and was distinctly wrong. These men were not looking for fat jobs; they' were looking solely for the establishment of a better state of things for their fellows. It was only on such a basis that he accepted nomination for any position on the committee in any shape or form. (Applause). A lot of misapprehension centred around, the words “control” and “compulsion.” What was the good of control if they had no power to direct? If they did not give power to say what must be done what power of control did they have? They must be able to say finally what was necessary to be done. It was absolutely impossible for them to handle the business without their being able to do this. They had been urging the establishment of a satisfactory intelligence department. They must have an intelligence establishment which must know how things stood in every channel throughout the world in which New Zealand was doing business or which they might do business. Tooley Street recognised the necessity of having such intelligence, but did they in New Zealand possess the knowledge they gained? They had spent any amount of time and money in improving their products, and they could watch it right up to the waterside, but as soon as it was put into the ships they lost their grip of it. VALUE OF INTELLIGENCE. It was impossible for them to have an effective grip of the whole of the position unless they had control, for the reason that no factory could afford, on its own initiative, a satisfactory intelligence system, and have other factories which did not have that opinion, and which would not act on it if they had, acting independently and prejudicing the position against it. It was necessary for the board to have the intelligence, and if they could control the produce and market it according to the opinions which had been acquired, they would be able to control the whole of the position and obtain the best from the produce after it left the factories. He wanted to make the position quite clear on the point, because it was vita] to the whole position. It would mean labor and solid toil. What did they know about the possibilities of the world’s markets, more particularly the Eastern market, to which the Australians were sending butter, or about the English county trade? He knew some factories had sent butter to Manchester, but the results had not been as satisfactory as they had hoped. This was simply because they had not organised. The only way they could avoid that was to know what the markets could absorb and wnat the prospects were. He was <ure a huge trade could be developed in parts of England, where they were not doing any business at the present time, if they could systematically advertise and let the people know about New Zealand produce and be able to satisfy the dei mand for it. The connection between the system of control and the setting up of a satis-

factory intelligence department was that it was only carrying co-operation another step forward along the line. In his experience the biggest obstacles in life were generally those conjured up by themselves. He maintained that where the extension of co-operation had shown weakness it had generally been the result of men entering larger businesses as an interesting relaxation from farming pursuits. They must have men who would concentrate absolutely on the business they were in, and he wanted them to recognise that the carrying on of a business of that kind would necessitate having the services of the best men they could get. “The whole question might be summed up in the question of control or he controlled,” Mr. Grounds continued. He felt that if they did not control the business themselves they must submit to being controlled from outside. If they did not consolidate in their own interests they had no hope of struggling against the consolidated interests of the whole world.

Mr. Grounds concluded his address by referring to a question which had been asked at one meeting as to whether it was intended to interfere with the Government grading department. He explained that mention of grading had been included in the draft Bill from the Meat Control Act, but it had now been eliminated from the Bill. It was never intended to interfere with the excellent grading system they at present enjoyed. In reply to a question as to what would be the position regarding advances if the butter was held up because the British public would not pay the price for it, Mr. Grounds said that the question of holding butter up was absolutely objectionable. It must go on the markets for consumption. There had been a suggestion as to the wisdom of considering the extension of the supply season so as to continue supplying throughout the whole year. Regarding finance, it would be quite easy to obtain advances from the banks or from the business houses in England, as might be determined by the board. There was no doubt on that point. Mr. E. Taylor asked what would be the position if the Tooley Street merchants did not fall in with the scheme and acted against it. IMPORTS INTO BRITAIN. Mr. Grounds: As I said, there is no bogey so big as the one we conjure up ourselves. The arrangement regarding finance was one of the first things the board must take in band. Regarding Tooley Street, the position was one which might be made a little more clear. Tn 1913 the English markets took 39,380 tons of produce from the British colonies, as against 159,480 tons from foreign services. Last year the colonies sent 97,887,000 tons, as against 90,894 tons from foreign sources, and that was one of the essential points to be borne in mind. While they were holding a prominent position on the market they should take the opportunity of keeping their house in order. Everyone recognised that Russia would be back again, while the Argentine was turning its attention to dairying, and whether they in New Zealand were combined or not they would as sure as fate have to meet very strong competition from those countries. If thev left it to outside agencies they would be able to play one against the other. (Applause).

Replying to a further comment by Mr. Taylor on the subject of the levies, Mr. Grounds asked whet was the cost of the existing system at the present time. Did they not contribute to the handling of the produce at this end? Did the organisations which handled it not cost them anything? He had recently met eleven representatives of various firms who had gone to Whangarei to obtain that factory’s output. Who paid their expenses, the firms or the farmers? He had heard it asserted that certain of the houses which had been receiving 1 per cent, of the 2% per cent, commission the factories allowed for sales were now taking | per cent. Mr. G. Gibson remarked that it seemed to him that no arrangements haa been made for meeting financial obligations.

In reply. Mr. Grounds said that, seeing that the Act was not yet passed, and consequently the board had not been set up 4 it was impossible for them to have made definite financial arrangements. PROTEST AT COMPULSION. Mr. W. J. Freeth said he would like to congratulate Mr. Grounds on his absolute sincerity. It was the fact of their having had to drag information out of the committee which had gone against the proposal. He referred to the necessity of having men of business experience on the hoard, and asked for the business credentials of Mr. Grounds. He did not like the word “compulsion.”, and was going to fight the proposal to the last. Mr. Grounds said he regretted that there should have been an expression of opinion that information had had to be dragged out of the committee. As far as making advances to Toolev Street nr to the hanks was concerned, he thought he had explained that they were making advances. He knew they could be financed. Their produce was very volatile and must be sold. He was not poing to lay his credentials on the table that day; he was quite satisfied with them. Mr. W. J. Grav inquired whether the Parliamentary committee would have power to compel persons to attend and give evidence. Mr. Morton. ?n reply, stated that the procedure was for the committee to announce that it was prepared to hear evidence, and persons desiring to give evidence could make arrangements to attend. It was announced that the committee Would meet next Tuesday. Mr. T. H. Davies said he appreciated the speech made by Mr. Grounds, hut he did not think they were very much further advanced than when he commenced. It was all very well to speak of these things in an academic manner, but. when an industry like the New Zealand dairy industry was asked to hand its affairs over to men who came without credentials and without any policy he thought they were entitled to ask for something more. It was all very well for these people to come and talk of the money the dairv farmers had lost. They did not know the men to whom it was proposed to hand over the industry. Some years ago it was suggested that a levy of 21 per cent, should be made in order to provide steamers to carry their produce Home, and it was also suggested that the Government should take steps to ensure that the steamers had return cargoes by giving a preferential tariff on goods carried in them. He did not know what would have been the result if that proposal had been gone on with and whether they were warranted in going on with the present scheme. (Applause). Mr. Gropnds had referred to the law of supply and demand with

reference to the stocks of goods in England and the millions in Europe eager to have them. Those people could not get them because they had not the money to pay for the articles. Regarding the question of finance, that was a most important question, and nothing had been said about it. Were they going to hold on to New Zealand butter until the price went back 60s or sot There might be some scheme to do it, but he thought that unless something more definite was put before them they should not consent to the proposal. In regard to the levy, Mr. W. J. Freeth said that the Act gave power to build up a reserve fund, but as no amount was stated that clause would need to be carefully protected. He the» moved: “That this meeting considers that a copy of the Bill should be supplied to each dairy company, and time given for full investigation before fur*., ther steps arc taken.”

The chairman said that a telegram had been received from Mr. O. Hawken, M.P., stating that copies of the Bill had been forwarded to each dairy factory, and that they could refer to the local papers to ascertain how evidence wa» to be taken. Mr. Harding (Moa Farmers) said that Mr. Freeth objected to control, but at present they were controlled by the shipping people, the cool stores and tnw agents. Mr. Freeth: They don’t make me sell to whom they like. BETTER SHIPPING PROBABLE, y Mr. Harding understood that if tha produce was controlled they would ba able to induce other shipping lines to trade here. For yeara dairy farmera had been allowing themselves to be is the hands of the shipping concerns and speculators, and yet when any proposal to better their position was brought for* ward people could be found to object. He, however, considered that some worked so hard that they had no time to think. He also objected to a gentleman from a solicitor’s office attempting to dictate to farmers. Unless something was done to improve their positions many of them would have to walk off their farms. Several of those proposing the scheme were big butter-fat producers and were working in their interests. They should not allow themselves to be influenced by people who al wavs oppos. ed anything that was likely to benefit them. If they were able to control the whole of the refrigerated produce they could dictate to the shipping companies, Tooley Street, and the , Associated Banks.

Mr. Davis explained that though for his sins a certain portion of his day was spent in a solicitor’s office, he spent a ereat portion of the day, early and late, in endeavoring to extract a cheque from the cows. If he erred he erred in good company, as there were several present who did not devote all their time to dairving. All he Asked for was that something more deflnße should be put before suppliers. He suggested that the Bill should be read, so as to make them familiar with its clauses. The chairman: There are six pages of

Mr. E. Tavlor eaid that he was not satisfied with the reply to a question he had asked earlier. He wanted to know if Tooley Street would still handle their produce after the scheme had been adopted and whether there would be any saving in the 2* per cent, commission .charged. He did not see that there would be, and producers would be loaded up with the cost of the levy in addition. Regarding the statement that all the opposition was in North Taranaki. he said they were not opposed to any scheme because they did not think, but because they did think. They wanted to see the matter in some definite concrete form. They did not rush into any wild-cat scheme, and as soon as the promoters could convince them that they would benefit they would not stop to think, but would at once join the scheme, as they had alreadv given the matter considerable thought. At the fluggestion of Mr. Gibson Mr. Freeth amended his motion to read: “That this meeting considers that as a cony of the Rill is being supplied to each dairy company, time should be given suppliers for full consideration before any further steps are taken.”

AGAINST THE SCHEME. Mr. G. Gibson, in secondino; Baid that he sincerely believed that Mr. Grounds was earnest in his advocacy of the scheme, but he was not correct in his surmises. He said that, he had given the meeting the fullest information posafble. and the speaker believed that was unite correct, hut the trouble was he had not sufficient information available to give, especiallv as regarded the financial part. He had referred to the ouestion of simply and demand, but if they sent their meat to the starving neonle of Russia they would not get much in return for it. It m ; ght ho all right on humanitarian "rounds, but on practical grounds it wnn’d not par. Personallv. he considered Mr. Grounds’ remarks as civilised socialism or co-opera-tion carried to extreme limits. He said that the committee bad been set up at the close of a meeting in Palmerston North, when delegates wore anxious to vet homo, after something in the nature of a stonewall. TTo understood the committee was morolv to inquire into a srihemo and put ’t forward for mature consideration. If that was sr> what right had thev to rush forward a .scheme at a time when practical dairy farmers were not able to leave their farms? The moat pool was said to have done a lot of good, but his information was that it was a dead letter. The compulsion clauses had not been put into effect, as, in the words of the member for Egmont, it was wise not to go further t/han they could see in thwe matters, and he could take it that the Meat Control Board had not had an easy task. It was said that the dairv control measure was only to apply to export produce and not to home produce, but he pointed out that the local price was fixed by the export nrice. Moreover, if it was a good thing for the Government of New Zealand to legislate to control the export they could not growl if the Government at Home legislated to control the prices. They would have conflicts between two Governments and two peoples of the Empire. The matter had tn he looked at on all sides. The price of their produce was based on the purchasing power of the people, and there was also the world-wide competition to consider. There had been previous attempts made to control the market and these had failed, the latest being that of Mr. Goodfellow, which had cost his eompanv £168.000, reducing the pay-out to Bd. QUESTION OF PRICE. Continuing, he said that Mr. Grounds had said that they must have control

of their produce, but at the same time he had said it could not be held up, but must go into circulation. If it was controlled it must at times be stored, and the question was where should it be stored—in New Zealand, at Home or on the eea. Wherever it was held up the people at Home would know. Moreover, it could not be held indefinitely as it would not keep, and further, the -farmers would want the money. If they forced up the price people would do without butter and would use margerine, as they did in the war time. The market could be “humbugged” too much. Regarding last year’s fluctuations in price, lie said that everything had flue- i tuated, even their farms, and would ; they set up a pool therefore to fix the price of every article? He also deprecated the sinking of individuality, as there were good and bad farmers. Moreover, if the compulsion clause were in force would factories get the price their produce made on the English market, as it was known that the price varied from week to week, or would each factory get the average price? Advocates of the scheme forgot that factories could not cable their produce Home, the distance from the market putting them at a disadvantage as compared with Danish, French, Irish, and even Argentine butter. Referring to the intelligence department, it had been said for years that New Zealand had one of the best intelligence departments in the High Com- : misaioner’s Office and in the National i Dairy Association representative, but i this had now proved a failure, and the ' control board proposed to set up some- ! thing better. The National Dairy Assoi ciation representative. after many years, had proved unable to find any i satisfactory system of marketing, and producer.? were now asked to put their living into the hands of a committee to be experimented with, to be speculated with, and gradually to be found unsatisfactory. Mr. Vickers here suggested a time limit. . “BACK DOOR COMPULSION.” Mr. Gibson thanked the meeting for the courteous hearing, which was a contrast to the reception meted out to opponents of the scheme in Wellington. Continuing, he said the scheme advocated compulsion' through the back door. i The scheme would prove expensive, as i they would have to pay the men well I and would be liable for all their mis- , I takes, and as ordinary men new to I the trade and not conversant with the | distributing channels, besides being op- ' posed to men with years of experience, they must make mistakes. Then he also asked were they satisfied with the control and operation of various concerns that had been set up under the wing of the National Dairy Association, or under the auspices of men largely associated with that body, viz., the Box Bacon Company, etc. If there was an impartial investigation of many of these concerns and the results published they would not be keen to put their affairs in their hands. ’ Moreover, the proposal was in direct opposition to the principles of democracy in New Zealand.

! Mr. Grounds said that regarding the | prices received for various grades, soma i factories had been making steady efi forts to improve the quality of their I produce, and the only way to encourage I this was to pay a higher price for the better quality.

A resolution was at this stage passed, limiting the speeches to ten minutes. Mr. E. Maxwell considered that it was unfair that one side should have full time to state their case, while, the opposition should be controlled as to time. Mr. Connett said that it was only fair that Mr. Maxwell should be given a lit* tie latitude. He had hoped that Mr. Maxwell, as one of thp principal oppon* ents, would have spoken a little earlier. Mr. Maxwell said that the meeting found itself in a peculiar position. While he listened to Mr. Grounds with pleasure, he at the same time received the, surprise of his life. One of the main arguments in favor of the control system was that Tooley Street were a pack of thieves. (Cries of “No!’) Mr. Maxwell: One speaker characterised them at a previous meeting as horse thieves. Continuing, he said the idea had been promoted on the ground that the producers had been robbed of a good deal of their just dues, and another argument was that pool control sale would enable them to stabilise the market by holding back the overplus. Now they were told that the English merchant was an honest trader, and no one had anything to fear from an honest man. Mr. Grounds also repudiated the idea of any one being able to stabilise the market by holding back the overplus. NO REASONS FOR. SCHEME. They had come to the meeting to heai the reasons why the pool had been promoted, but he had not heard one single word to warrant him in working all day on the farm to produce stuff to be taken over by a board of control. The only ground on which State control could be advocated—and this practically amounted to State control—was 'that the public welfare was menaced. This was the case of a war measure. Ufiless they could show that it was a menace, they had absolutely no right to interfere with his produce. This was against the underlying principles of the freedom of the British subject. The Meat Control Board had done nothing to effect a remedy, though possibly they might be working towards it. They should have waited to see the success of that gigantic experiment before suggesting another. He held that the State had no warrant to dictate as to what he should do with his produce. If 499 factories favored the scheme, and one was opposed to it, that one should have a right to its freedom.

There was no proof of any trust or combination in connection with the dairy industry. Thp British merchant was the most honest in the world. Tie was in a position to know that during last season dairy factories had received for their produce all that the market warranted. They had received within lid and 2d of the price that the consumer purchased it for from the retailer, whilst in New Zealand the Government allowed 3d between the factory and the consumer. There had been violent fluctuations in the price, this being one of the worst years, but these fluctuations were understandable. They were caused by the evils of the necessary war-time control, causing the dumping of the State butter, and also the drought. Moreover, there was no control in Denmark. A committee fixed the price for the consumers, who had a perfectly free market, and the Danes, because it was absolutely essential to clear out their stocks, swamped the market. He had records which showed that, apart from the controlled butter, the price for N.Z. butter ran marvellously elose to Danish nutter, and in some cases exceeded it. This was remarkable when they consi&red the distance we were from -* the market, and that the Danes supplied saltless butter and New Zealand supplied salted. That being the case, what were they fighting? Regarding finance, Mr. Grounds was quite right in saying it would be impossible to have a complete scheme until the proposal was in operation. Companies. however, did not want lo give a blank cheque, and at present the whole thing was in the clouds. He thought the scheme had been founded on false grounds. The promoters, who I bad not read the Bill themselves, were ■ asking that £16.000,000 worth of dairy produce, tvliich stabilised the finances of the Dominion, should ibe placed in the hands of nine men. He stressed the point that it would disorganise the whole system on which dairy factory finance was based. At present the banks had the backing of the English houses, as well as the goods on which to make their advances, and about February advances totalling some £3,000,000 were probably made. Yet, without making any financial arrangements beforehand. they were asked to pass an Act of Parlimont giving the control to untried men-, indeed, some had been tried and found wantin s’. Under the control board system they would not get these advances, as the merchant would not know the price he had to pay until it was fixed after the produce arrived Homo. To handle the finance at present spread over 60 firms, the Control Board would need a mint of

ORIGIN OF THE SCHEME.

This proposal, he pointed out. did not emanate from the dairy industry, but from a certain clique, some of whom had been associated with other schemes that the producers did not love. The producers did not love the National Dairy Association, which they regarded as tiie old man of the sea. Concluding, he said that the scheme had not been properly laid before the dairy industry. When the Bill was before every dairy factory, dairy farmers would have the opportunity of then considering it, and if they thought fit could ask that it be put into operation. Mr. Larking (Okato) said the criticisms had been destructive and not constructive. He considered money could bo saved by sending the produce direct to different English ports and also by cutting England up into different districts. with a separate finanical agent to operate in each’, and thus save spe. •mlation. They should also advertise to educate the British public to take New Zealand produce as the standard article, and to this end he would gladly contribute one farthing per lb butterfat. Mr. Connett then moved as an amendment: “That, with a view to reducing the charges on dairy produce at present existing between the producer and consumer, and thereby assuring a better net return to the farmer, this meeting of dairy factory repreesntatives in North Taranaki expresses its approval of the broad principle of the Dairy Control Bill as outlined by Mr. Grounds.”

In support, he said experience in the past had shown that a great deal was lost to the consumer. With cheese at Bd, the gross return for butter-fat was

Is 9d, jbut 9d of that was lost in ex* penses between the time the milk went to. the factory and the cheese reached the consumer in England. With butter the loss was probably 7d. This meant millions, and they must remedy that, apart from controlling the market, No scheme would be perfect at once, but they must make a start somewhere with the idea of making further improvements as the result of the experience gained. Regarding compulsion, farmers now had to submit to the rules and regulations of the factories they supplied. The main thing was to try* and effect a saving in the leakage and bring about an improvement. They must regulate supplies so as to eliminate speculation. CONCLUSION OF DISCUSSION. Mr. Green said that if the compulsion clause was deleted there would be no opposition. Mr. Gray seconded the amendment. Tn reply to questions as to how much of the 9d was actual charges in connection with manufacture, etc., Mr. Connett said he would not go into details, but the charges would probably be 4d to f.o.b. Mr. J. B. Marx said his company had lost £10.090 on 9,000 boxes of butter, as compared with the Danish prices, after allowing for 10g difference in price for Denmark being so much closer to thmarket. Mr. Wyatt asked how much Tooley Street -would charge in commission under the proposed scheme. He considered Tooley Street would still charge 2 l / 2 per cent. Mr. Grounds said that the’commission would not be so high. The relative difference of the price as between New Zealand and Danish butter kept on an even keel, there being 4s to 8s in favor of Denmark. Mr. Hine (Tikorangi) suggested that they should push on with the scheme, eliminating, compulsion. Mr. J. Brown (Maketawa) congratulated the committee in bringing down a scheme. For years' the industry had been talking about the necessity for some improvement, but nothing had been done. He was afraid that the argument that they got advances on their produce because Tooley Street was behind them would not always hold water. Last year, when Tooley Street were prepared to advance Is. the banks would only advance 7d. They would never get anywhere without compulsion, but he thought theV had started at the wrong end, and it. would be better to get six of the leading Tooley Street merchants to visit New Zealand and have a round table conference on the best method of effecting improvements. (Applause). The amendment, was then put and lost, as was also a further amendment proposed by Mr. Green, seconded by Mr. E. Taylor, asking the Governrient to delay the matter until after the general election.

The motion was carried. The meeting terminated with votes of thanks to the chairman and Mr. Grounds. PARLIAMENTARY COMMITTEE. EVIDENCE NEXT WEEK. By Telegraph.—Press Association. Wellington, Oct. 6. The committee appointed to hear evidence in connection with the Dairy Produce and Export Control Bill will commence proceedings on Thursday. October 12. Evidence of the North Island objectors will be heard on Friday, October 13 and the South Island objectors on Tuesday. October 17. Witnesses desirous of tendering evidence on these dates can notify the clerk of the Dairy Produce Bill Committee, Parliamentary Buildings.