PARLIAMENT.

Taranaki Daily News, 25 September 1919, Page 5

PARLIAMENT.

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. By Telegraph.—Press Association. Wellington, Last Night. The Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m., and, after transacting purely formal business, adjourned at 2.34 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. The House met at 2.30. NEW BILLS. Notice of intention to introduce the following Bills was given: Counties Amendment (Mr. Wilkinson); Victory Park Bill (Dr. Thacker); Palmerston Abattoir Bill (Mr. Nash). Bills to amend the Coal Mines, Mining, Prisons, Public Trust, New Zealand University, Education, and Police Force Act were introduced by Governor's message and read a first time. The Minister promised that copies of the Mining Bill would be circulated amongst the miners' unions and mine owners. This and the Coal Mines Bill were referred to the | Mining Committee for report. Sir James Allen explained that the New Zealand University Bill provided for the payment of an additional £IOOO to the New Zealand University, the present grant of £IOOO not being sufficient to cover the expenses; £2500 was also provided for each of the University Colleges, and £2OOO for the Medical School at Dunedin. In addition to these sums, the Bill provided for the payment to each of the University Colleges of £SOO for workmen's extension lectures. Hon. .T. (j. Coatcs explained that the Public Trust Hill gave power to open branches where an office was deemed necessary. The Police Force Bill was purely a machinery measure. The Education Loan Bill was introduced by Governor's message and read a first time. Sir James Allen explained that the Bill gave power to borrow £500,000 this year and £750,000 in each year for four years for tho purposes of advancing education. MONDAY SITTINGS. Mr. Massey moved that on and after Monday, September 29, and for the remainder of the session, the House meet on Mondays at 7.30 p.m. for the transaction of Government business only. This was agreed to. SOLDIERS' GRATUITIES, Sir James Allen read the tables of comparison between the gratuities grant, ed by Canada and New Zealand, showing that New Zealand was mora liberal in the treatment to her soldiers than the sister Dominion. He stated that Canada's assistance to soldiers totalled twenty millions, but, on a population basis, Canada's expenditure to equal New Zealand's should have amounted to fortytwo millions, lie had not the figures of Australia's expenditure on assistance to soldiers up to August 31. but he was confident that when it came to hand New Zealand's showing would be very favorable. Mr. Massey stated it was the intention of the Government to have 75,000 copies of the paper just read printed and circulated throughout the Dominion, so that people may know what has been done in the way of assistance to soldiers. The discussion on the Government's gratuity scheme was then culled on. Sir Joseph Ward said the statement just, read went to prove the reasonableness of the request lie now made lor delay in tile discussion, because on one point (treatment of sick men) the Minister himself had stated he wanted still further time to consider it, and if the Minister required further time how much more did members need it? He found fault with (lie proposed treatment of wounded men in the matter of gratuities. The man who came back to New Zealand and remained in hospital should not be treated less favorably than the man who recovered in England. He also objected to the method of computing tho value of the gratuity by first taking into account the allowances and privileges given to soldiers. It was most unfair to give with one hand and take it away with the other. He had no wish to obstruct the Government in this matter, but he felt bound to suggest that there ought to have been a difference made in favor of the married men. The proposals made for married men were inadequate, and what about seamen who had been engaged in the war zone aa mine sweepers or in the mercantile marine? They certainly should be included. Then, he could not see anything indicating that the nurses were included. Sir James Allen: The nurses lire ni! included. They are members of the Expeditionary Forces, but V.A.D's are not included,

Sir Joseph Ward thought they should have been. Sir Joseph, continuing, said there were men who went out to fight and were wounded or fell sick; they came back, but after a time their health was restored and they enlisted again. There appeared to be no provision for counting the time between enlistments.

Sir James Allen snid there was a provision for a minimum of eighteen months. Sir Joseph Ward said no one understood that to be so, but it was satisfactory if points such as this were cleared up as they went along. Then there were men who had sold tiieir farms or businesses, and no allowance seemed to be made for that sacrifice. It might have cost a few hundred thousand pounds, but, whatever it cost, the right thing should be done. He wished to sec this matter of gratuities cleared of all complications. He, therefore, thought the soldiers should get 2s per day. He had previously expressed this opinion to some of those associated with him.

Hon. members: Why did you not say so to the National Government?

Sir Joseph Ward: There was no opportunity of doing so. Sir James Allen: It was discussed by the National Government.

Sir Joseph Ward: But not settled. Sir James Allen: Yes, ami settled, and I stated so in the House.

Sir Joseph Ward: If the lion, gentleman will tax his memory he will remember lie came to me anil told me he had made a statement with the authority of the Premier, but I was not consulted. Before sitting down, he moved that the gratuity scheme be referred back to the Government for further consideration. Hon. W. D. S. MaeDonald seconded the amendment. He said he did not desire to embarrass the Government, and he certainly did not approve of soldiers or others who sought to demand excessive allowance.'! from the Government at the bayonet's point, but he did think that before this matter was finally determined they should give it every consideration. He therefore supported the amendment.

Hon. J, A, Hanan said it was not a question of what New Zealand was doing in comparison '.villi other countries, hut what was our duty. There was, undoubtedly. much wealth in New Zealand that

was now escaping German taxation because our soldiers helped to win tho war. Could we not do something more with that wealth and pay something more for the men who saved it? lie thought we could. Our first duty was to the men who defended the country. Mr. Downie Stewart said it was difficult to find a principle on which the gratuity should be based. The only basis, he thought could be considered was that which other countries were doing, and what the soldiers themselves expected. He thought the Minister's comparison with other countries was fair, and the proposals made were in excess of what the Returned Soldiers' Association had suggested. So far as it was possible to get an expression of opinion, he believed the R.S.A. were prepared to accept the proposals.

Mr. Holland said the Labor Party would view this matter from the point of view of working men, as 90 per cent of the soldiers were working men, and these men were being offered the stone of Is 6d per day instead of the bread of 4s per day they had asked for The debate was proceeding when the House rose at 5.30. EVENING SITTING. The House resumed at 7.20. Mr. Poole continued the debate on the soldiers' gratuities. He said the fact that the Minister was not fully conversant with the effect of all his proposals was a good reason why they should be referred back for further consideration. He made a strong appeal for the recognition of men of the mer. cantile marine in connection with any scheme for gratuities. Hon. J. B. Hine agreed with the last speaker as to the splendid service rendered by the mercantile marine, but this was not the place in which to recognise that service. There were shipping companies :n the Dominion, and tliev were the ones who should make, this provision. As to the amendment, he had a shrewd suspicion that if the Government had brought down 2s the leader of the Opposition would have proposed 2s 6d; if the Government had proposed 2s fid, he would have proposed 3s, and so on, because he was determined to go one better than the Government. Personally he thought tho Minister had fairly met all claims in the scheme before tne House, which was a better scheme than that formerly proposed by the National Oovernment, of which the Liberals were members. He favored a flat rate, because the officers were well paid for their services in the forces. He rebuked the Labor Party—"the immaculate five"—i„ demanding better treatment for soldier,* lvhen they did their best to pre* vent any soldier going to the front. T.'iese men called out for greater contributions from accumulated wealth, but he could assure them that accumulated wealth would have to make a proper tribute to the. country. They bad taxins? powers, and it wonhl be the duty of the Government to see that wealth paid its proper ohare. He personally was well satisfied with the gratuity. He was not going to say that the proposals of the Government were ail the country could afford, but they must not forget, this was not the last they would have to do for the soldier, for a great work was yet to be done in the matter of repatriation. 110 appealed to soldiers not to waste the gratuity, but to use it wisely and economically.

Sir John Findlay said the Oovernment should withdraw the proposals (]) because the Minister of Defrnce admitted he wanted further time to examine their effect on some esses, and (2) because there-was no differentiation between married and sinHe soldiers. He thought th,> Premier could, under all the circum-

stances, withdraw the proposal* without the least loss to his (ii«nit.v. for the reason? disHo-ed in the debate.

Mr. Ma?«ev deprecated any attempt fo make t-hi« a partv nuest'mn. Members of Hie Opposition: We do not want to make it a party question. Mr. Massev said be was clad to have that assurance, because he was anxious to do the rifilit thing. At the same time he recognised that we bad to face a serious financial position. He aiwnvs believed that We could not get through the war under a hundred millions, He now knew that it would cost more than a hundred millions, and that aspect bad to be taken into consideration. He compared the gratuity paid to soldiers after the Boer war by the Liberal Government, when privates got £5, with the proposals of his Government. Something had been said about the mercantile marine. He recognised the great value of that service, and he reminded the House that since June. 1010, a special war bonus was paid by the shipping companies to the men crossing the war lone. At the same time he recognised that the Dominion had some responsibility to the men on the ships used for training prior to their being taken over by the Imperial authorities, and it would be the duty of the Government to consider what that responsibility was. He would find out what was being done in Britain, but he certainly would not agree to a gratu'tv for officers unless it was also given to the men, Regarding the amendment. be could not help thinking it was a party move. That was the view the majority of the public would take of it. It was for the public to judge of what the Government had done, and 'f ihev were 3iot satisfied tlioy had their remedy at. the polls.

Sir Joseph Ward, by wriv of personal explanation, denied that be had been actuated by the spirit of party. His course was forfectly constitutional, and nothing would deter him from doing his constitutional dutv.

Mr. Poland deprecated the inequalities in the pension system, under which the wife of ;i colonel receives £3 Ss per week for life, while the wife of a ser-seant-mn jor wit.l) three children received only f.'j IDs per week. He rearetted the Government had done nothing'for the soldiers that was not wrung out of them, and the promise had not .been kept that the_ men could go awnv and feel that their dependents would be well cared for. He approved of the flat rate. The same principle should prevail in our pension system. So far as the gratuities were concerned, he thought the men wore entitled to 3s per day, because (hat amount had been stopped out of their pav when they went away to fight. 'This could just as easily he given as the la fid proposed by the Govemmnet.

Hon. A, M. Myers admitted that it was most, difficult to decide whether the amount of the gratuity should be Is fid or 2s, but he thought that when the country did anything in the matter it should do it handsomely. He thought the criterion of what should be paid was th« ability of the country to pay. In this connection he quoted the deposits in the post, office savings banks as evidence of tin- country's prosperity, to say nothing of some (10 millions war loans raised in the country, and surpluses of lf>'/. millions of revenue which accumulated during the past five years. As actingMinister of Finance for some years, he said the countrv could afford to do better for the soldiers than the Government. proposed. If extra taxation was neces;arv th n n that taxation must be gut on the shoulders of those best able

to bear it. He appealed to the Premier not to regard Sir Joseph Ward's motion as a party move.

Mr. Harris said he had telegrams from constituents on tlio subject of the gratuities, and every one of them was favorable to the proposals. He was, therefore, going to support the Governmnet. After the supper adjournment, the debate was continued by Mr. Hornsby, who contended that this question of gratuities was one that should have been settled before the Liberal Ministers left the National Government. As it was, the cupidity of the soldiers had been aroused, with degrading results. He Would oppose the amendment. Mr. Jennings appealed to the Premier to reconsider the position of married men, and those who had been killed and left dependents. The Hon. G. W. Russell criticised the method by which the proposals had been brought down, which, he thought, was intended to achieve a party advantage. He did not altogether approve of the form of amendment, as he thought the House should say a larger sum should be paid, not out of loan, but out of the accumulated surpluses: If the money I was paid out of loan then the men who received it would have for years to pay back by interest and sinking fund the money which was supposed to be a gift. W itli some of the proposals he agreed The only point on which he differed from the Government was the amount. The country was extremely wealthy, and he thought the amount of gratuity should be 2s 6d per day, which would cost £9,100,000, less than the accumulated surplus in hand. Mr. Parr said that if the Hon. G. W. Russell thought it fair to use the surplus for gratuities, it was equally fair to use it for repatriation, as the Government proposed. He regretted the disunion of the House on the point, because the proposal of Sir Joseph Ward meant delay. It would have been a gracious act if the House could have come to a unanimous agreement on the proposal, about which he felt sure DO per cent, of the soldiers and civilians were agreed. Mr. Craigie thought the Government had done pretty well, and he regretted there had been so much huckstering in connection with the soldiers. Responsibility for the amount must rest with the Government, but he thought it better if a levy on the wealth of the country had been made to carry on the war rather than by loan, towards which the soldier would have to pay his quota. The gratuity was not, therefore, a free gift. Mr. Brown said New Zealand had fattened on the war, and lie urged that some of the fat should be given back to the soldiers. The amount ought 10 be increased by at least 50 per cent. After midnight, the debate was carried on by Messrs. Anderson, Isitt, Buddo, Witty, Field (Nelson), Seddon, the Hon. Coat.es, Dr. Thacker, and, Messrs Wright and Semple. (Left Sitting.)