THE LICENSING BILL.

Taranaki Daily News, 4 December 1918, Page 5

THE LICENSING BILL.

MEASURE PASSED,

BY LOWER HOUSE,

SIX O'CLOCK CLOSING PERMANENT

By Telegraph.—Press Association.

Wellington, Last Night. The Prime Minister, in movin° the second reading of the Licensing BUI in the House to-day, said that to;- some years past there had been a feeling among public men, and among people" generally, that something should bo uone, if possible, to bring to an end the unceasing unrest nn account of the control of the liquor traffic being too closely connected with the polities of the country. He had stated at the close of the 1017 session that the Government intended making an effort to secure a settlement of the liquor controversy. The Bill represented the effort of the Government to discharge the promise. Whether or not the Bill would reacli the Statute Book he was not able to say. Each member of the House would have an individual responsibility, and the final responsibility must rest with Parliament as a whole.

Experts had advised that it would not be practicable to take a poll before April of next year, owing to the extent of the arrangements that.had to be made. He had hoped to use the new roll, but it had been pointed out that it would be exceedingly awkward in the event of another by-election coming along, so the old roll must be used.

The Bill did not place any limit on the amount of compensation ito he paid. It was quite impossible to fix the limit, but the Government did not believe that tlm total compensation would exceed £4.500.000.

Members: There should lie a limit. Mr. Massey: That is a matter which members have to consider for themselves.' We say that the amount of compensation will he, approximately, .-64,500.000. hut, if it happens to be more, the amount in excess will be a liability of the Stole, and will have to he met. Doubt had been expressed whether the sum of £4,500,000 would provide sufficient compensation for the businesses that would be brought to an end in the event of prohibition being carried. Figures bearing upon this point had teen prepared by a thoroughly competent accountant, and the Government thought these figures could be accepted as fairly accurate. The accountant estimated that the compensation would amount to £3,691.683, the chief items being: Breweries £37">,000. hotels £1.416.606, termination of trade £1,400,000, wine-makers £IOO,OOO, employees £IOO.OOO. The Bill provides that compensation in the ease of breweries and hotels vas to he not more than one-half of the freehold value as shown in the books of the Valuation Department, and members were aware that the Government valuations were seldom "equal to the selling value. Pavment for the termination of Crade was limited to two years' profits based on income tax returns. The total value of the trade wn<* intimated at from £10.000.000 to £11,000,000, hut the provision of the Bill Telatinp to prohibition with compensation did not propose to huy out the trade—it merelv provided compensation for the termination of business. The total value of the trade would have to he dealt with. Tn the ovent of State control bein<r adoptee! under the later provisions of the Bill if the Government paid £10.000.000 for the trade it would hive aw asset to represent that sum. The purchase would Include all the <rondwill.

Tn conclusion. Mr. Massev snicl that, mpmoprs would sep tbat the Bill wns nvcppdiuglv well drafted. There was nn difficulty about understanding it. and members would know exactly wTint tliev wore doing. He knew that manr msm. fters were not satisfied with tn<» Tsill, and that some nponlp orrtslde the TTousi were not satisfied with it end would he disappointed if it were passed into In™. On thp other h.ind. Hp was convinced, nnd signatures to petitions had proved that therp was n. verv strong bodv c f pnhlin opinion in of a. r"form of the liquor tmffic. 'PpfnrTy had cot tn come, and whatever the Touse dM the nresent Pill, the nubile would insist nnon thp reform of the liquor traffic flip object of the hill was to nromete. as fir as possible, trvl» temncrano reform, nnd. t.m» t.pinnerancp i-ithmit in*'>'-f"r""« «•"♦ more tW wn« T. w »rc!ir>' vith tVo I'hprtv ind social habits of the neonle of thp Dominion.

THF. TVTPrTTS'STONr.

Mr. Witty said the National Government had again shirked their duty in iiot submitting their proposals to the people long ago. They had put off the general election, when the people could have expressed an opinion on the subject cheaply, but though it was impossible to get' money for schools and other necessary works, the Government was going to spend thousands of pounds on a referendum. Then, if the prohibition party is not successful at the first poll. a second poll is to be held, which lie characterised as distinctly unfair to the Trade. All tit's had been brought about by the Efficiency Board, some of the members of which did not always practise what they preached. He further complained that no opportunity would be given soldiers to vote, which was most unfair.

Mr. Massey .'■aid that eighty per cent, of the soldiers would he able to vote.

Mr. Witty, continuing, said ha doubted that very much. In any ease, the whole project was simply a means to permit the Government to escape its obligations. If there wan to be prohibition it should be complete prohibition, and not a drop of liquor should come into the country, not even for sacramental purposes. For that kind of prohibition lie would vote.

Mr. MrCallum said lie was wholly opposed to a referendum, because it took the power out of the hands of Parliament and was tiie sheet anchor of the political shirker. It was deplorable that the (louse should be ■■ailed upon l" discuss such a Bill a- this, because it contained no policy, but simply made a choppier block of the moderate party, which lav between the wther two, one of which'was largely made up of selfish brewers, and the ch" largely of cranks. The Bill w;>- casnnable Bill, when we wer- mg tor peace; when our soldi-.. •■"■• away, and when the leaders of the House will be awn,v. He, therefore, proposed to move that the Bill be read that day six montliß.

Mr. Payne considered the cwrying of

prohibition would have a hiarhlv detrimental effect on the unskilled labor market, which was most unfair to the returning soldiers. He favored State control as the solution of the liquor problem, as it put that trade beyond the pale of private profit. Mr. Downie Stewart said exception had been taken to the Bill because it did not definitely limit the amount of compensation to be paid, but the Government could not fix the amount. Alt they could do in a Bill of this kind was to lay down the principles on which compensation should be paid, and if the people were satisfied with those principles the people must take the risk of how much compensation must be paid. That was a matter entirely for the court which hud all evidence before it. In no case that he could remember was ever a court set up to grant compensation where the maximum amount of compensation was already fixed for it. It had been said that if this were not done they would bo giving the Government a blank cheque, but, why not, if the people were prepared to pay it? That was a point for the people' and not for the House to decide. He thought the ballot paper was not in the most perfect form for voting on the question, and he thought the chairman of the compensation court should be'a judge of the Supreme Court, not a stipendiary magistrate.

Mr. Hudson did not favor either prohibition or referendum, especially a referendum on a bare majority. If anyone moved an amendment substituting a three-fifths majority for the bare majority he would give it his support. Mr. Jennings did not favor prohibition, but he asked the Premier to say in his reply whether all the adults in the King Country would be allowed to vote.

Mr. Anderson saw no good in postponing the Bill, nor did lie favor giving the Government a blank cheque in the matter of compensation. The amount of compensation should he fiexd. Dr. Thacker said the greatest word in British language was "moderation." hut the National Government was not practising moderation, for this was the most keenly controversial measure that could be introduced. Mr. McCallum's amendment was wise, as it would give every one time to think about the question ; it would give the soldiers time to come back; and it would-give the leaders of the House time to get back, and he was going to vote in that direction. The National Cabinet wholly missed its mark in the direction of social legislation. There was extravagance going on in all directions, and no effort was made to check it. Why, then, strike at the social pleasures of the people? The Bill was not a square deal.

Dr. Newman said he could not understand providing compensation for the trade, when the trade could be abolished without it. Certainly, compensation should be limited, and the people should know exactly what they were voting for. He was willing to do something to settle the liquor question, but the Bill' seemed only to consider the rights of the trade, taking no cognisance of the rights of the people, and the people would not get a fair run. He greatly deprecated the unseemly haste with which the Bill was being rushed through.

SIK JOSEPH WARD'S VIEWS.

Sir Joseph Ward said that members who complained at the proposal to grant compensation seemed to forget that, under the existing law, if national prohibition were carried those in the trade were entitled to four years' respite, but that right was taken away from them under this Bill. andjsurely that concession was worth something. He was quite in favor of limiting the amount of compensation, and he thought that every member or the Government was in favor of a limit, but what they had to be sure of was that the limit' fi;,ed was within the amount required. He did not know on what data the Efficiency Board worked when they fixed the limit at four and a half millions. He did not know on what ibasis the accountant worked who made the estimate for the '.Premier, but he was prepared to .make the limit a million more than these authorities had fixed, if ne'eessary, so long as the limit was above the amount required, and not within it, It seemed that part of the Bill was necessary, because no one wanted the licensing question revived next session. They wanted to get the question out of the way, and so they made provision for a future poll, if it were required. He wanted clear issues put before the people, 'so that they could give a decision on the question, of which he had never been clear during the whole of the thirty-one years he had been in the House, and he felt that the Bill would accomplish that object.

FURTHER CRITICISM.

Mr. McCombs said the measure was characteristic of the National Government, /which was too weak to give a lead. The people were entitled to come to the House and ask to be allowed to vote on any great question, but they were not entitled to say how they may vote on these questions. It was the duty of Parliament to protect the interests of the people in this respect, but the Bill did not do this. Sir Joseph Ward spoke of "ascertaining the will of the people," but under the system of voting provided in the Bill the issue was all in favor of the trade. The. only fair system of voting when there were four issues was that proposed by the Labor Party, namely, preferential, and he proposed to move an amendment in this direction when the Bill was hi committee.

Mr. Xosworthy said the House had not a hope of settling the liquor question by passing this Bill, which was more a trade Bill than a prohibition measure. He did not like the principle of compensation, but he felt he had to do the best under the peculiar circumstances and vote for the Bill. Mr. Statham considered there must be a limit fixed in the Bill as to the amount of compensation to be paid, otherwise the public could be intimidated in voting through not knowing what prohibition would cost. Mr. Fraser said the Bill bore the characteristic mark of the National Govment the mark of a weak compromise. The Labor Party wanted to trust the people, but this Bill did not trust the people. He criticised the voting scheme of the Bill, and claimed that a transferable vote was the only way to get a. Irue expression from the people, therefore the Labor Party would move in that direction in committee.

A division was taken on Mr. McCalhim's amendment at !> o'clock, when the amendment was lost by 54 to 9. Those supporting the amendment were Messrs McCallum, Colvin, Witty. Scarce, Dr. Thacker, Dr. Xewman, Messrs Jennings, Brown, and R. W. Smith.

THE PREMIER IN REPLY.

Mr. Massey, in reply, defended the compensation proposals, which were on exactly the sftse piipcifles M those

employed in the case of taking land for roads or railways under the Public Works Act.

Replying to Mr. Jennings, the Premier said that all adults in the King Country would have the opportunity of voting on the issues in the Bill, but. he pointed out there was no proposal in the Bill to establish licenses in the King Country. He justified the postponement or tlie elections, and consequent delay of the referendum, owing to war conditions pointing out that there, had not been an election in England for ten yeurs In Ivew Zealand we would probably have an election next December, in 'which case we will have had a' live rears larliamenl. Personally, he thought a triennial Parliament too short, thouah he might not be prepared to go so far as to say they might be for five years. Discussing the methods of voting, Mr M'assey aa id the bare majority had'been conceded on all issues, and lie believed that had come to stay. In his opinion the trade, in giving up the four and a half years respite, had parted with a thin sheet anchor. He moved the second reading of the Bill, which was challenged, and a division called for. the Bill being read a second time by 55 to 8.

IN COMMITTEE. The House then went into committee. Mr. Massey moved an amendment, the effect of which was to limit the amount of compensation to be paid under the Bill at 4| millions. He said he believed 4J millions would be ample, and he desired to protect himself against the possibility that it would not be sufficient. If not sufficient, then there would have to be a pro rata reduction all round, but that would mean that they were open to the accusation that they had taken property for nothing. They must rely on the impartiality of the tribunals.

COMPENSATION LIMIT FIXED.

Immediately on resuming aftsr the supper adjournment, Mr. Massey announced that he had accepted Mr. Lee's amendment fixing the limit of compensation at 4J millions, and the amendment was carried on the voices.

Mr. Ngata moved that the electoral district should include the Maori electorates, so that the opihioß of the Maori people, for what it was worth, should be given expression to at the same time as the European poll. Mr. Massey said it was all a question as to how the amendment would affect the proposals in the Bill. He doubted if the rolls could be prepared and the machinery made available in time. bur. if the honorable member would withdraw the amendment he (the Premier) would see what could he done, and, if necessary, the amendment could be moved later.

Mr. Isitt asked if the poll could not be taken in March, instead of April, when peace celebrations would probably be observed.

Mr. Massey promised consideration, and if arrangements could be made to hold tho poll in March he would have the change made in the Legislative Council.

AMENDMENTS NEGATIVED.

Mr. Nosworthy moved, to delete the words "with compensation," seeking to secure national prohibition without; compensation. The amendment was lost by 47 to 14, those supporting the amendment being Messrs Anderson, Anstey. Dickson (Chalmers), Fraser (Wellington Central), McCalhim, "McCombs,. Dr. Newman, Messrs Scott, Veitch, Walker, Wilkinson, Young, Nosworthy, and Pearce. Mr. McCombs moved an amendment providing for four issues to be submitted to the people at the referendumnational, prohibition without and without compensation, national ownership, and continuance, on the basis of preferential voting. This, he said, meant trusting the people.

Mr. Massey said he could not accept the amendment. It was too dangerous a thing to experiment with when 4% millions of the people's money was at stake. Mr. Isitt said ho could not afford to risk the Bill, even for democratic principles. After a lengthy discussion a division was taken, the amendment being lost by 45 to 14.

Replying to Mr. Hunter, who asked if it was proposed to give soldiers an opportunity of taking part in the pull, Mr. Massey said the regulations would have to be very carefully thought out, as it was the intention to give every soldier a vote wherever possible. The Premier accepted an amendment suggested by Mr. IP. Fraser, placing those engaged in clerical work about hotels amongst those entitled i.o compensation. The Premier also accepted an amendment moved by Mr. Anderson striking out the provision that one of the assessors of compensation shall be a person representing the class of persons entitled to compensation.

Mr. Statham moved an amendment providing that prohibition without compensation must be carried by a three-fifths majority. The amendment was lost by 45 to (I.

A clause was inserted, on the motion of the Premier, providing for a greater purity of rolls.

SIX O'CLOCK CLOSING TO BE PERMANENT.

Mr. Wilkinson moved an amendment making six o'clock a permanent institution.

Mr. Masaey said ho favored the proposal, but this was not the proper measure in which to embody it, and lie was unable to accept it. On a division the voting was equal, 27 on each side. The chairman of committees gave a casting vote for the amendment, which was read a second

On the question that the clause be added to the Bill, the voting was: For the amendment 28, against 27.

THE BILL PASSED.

The Bill .was then reported with amendments, read a third time, and passed.

The House rose at 12.35 until noon to-day.