PARLIAMENT.

Taranaki Daily News, Volume LV, Issue 86, 28 August 1912, Page 5

PARLIAMENT.

TUESDAY, AUGUST 27. THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. By Telegraph.—Press Association. Wellington, Last Night. The Council met at 3.30 p.m. ' COUNCIL ELECTION BILL. Mr. McCardlc resumed the, debate on the Legislative Council Elections Bill. He considered that the Government had a right to introduce any measure they considered to be for the good of the country. He took exception to the proposed electorates, as it would throw the elections into the hands of men who were able,to have organisation over the electorates.. Where would the country districts be under the, system? He reminded the Leader of the Council that great interests were centred in the, country, and candidates from the country would he unknown generally. He trusted that the Council would see that they had some other system of election than the one proposed. He pointed out that it would take a great amount of capital for a country candidate to make his views known throughout an electorate. Nearly every city would have more than its fair quantity of members in the Council, and the farmers would not be adequately represented. He suggested the appointment of a committee to go into the whole question. He was prepared to vote for the second reading, and would <lo his best to secure a reasonable system of representation. Mr. Anstey said that he would prefer to sec the Council abolished rather than reformed in the terms of the present Bill. Such a reform would be an abortion. There was no particular failing on the part of councillors that demanded reform. All the. authorities quoted had advocated election on a limited franchise or by some secondary means. He contended that proportional representation in other countries resulted only in the representation of factions, not of the people as a whole, The Bill before them would never give this. An ideal Council should represent every main interest and locality in- the Dominion. Large electorates would defranehise the. country districts. If he voted for the second reading it would be only for the purpose of affording fuller discussion. Mr. Baillie said that he' would vote for the Bill as containing some recommendation for a change, which was, he believed, the desire of the Dominion. He suggested that the House of Representatives should act as an elective college, and that the Government should have the right to nominate a certain number of members. Mr. Callan said that unless some such change as was proposed were effected the Council would, he believed, be abolished. If election were adopted, a necessary branch of the Legislature would survive. He would support the second reading. He was not wedded to two electorates, but held that they should not be small. Mr. Luke said that this question of reform of the Council had been up for settlement to his knowledge for forty years. There would be no satisfactory solution until the Lower House was i elected on the basis of proportional representation. ■ The Council then adjourned. The Council resumed at 7.45 p.m. Mr. Luke, continuing his speech, advocated, say, ten seats in the North Island, but did not think that the South, with a smaller population, should have equal representation. He thought the Government should introduce a Bill embodying the same system regarding the Lower House. Mr. Barr maintained that no serious charge had been brought against the Council in the country. It would be deplorable to have two systems of elections in vogue at the same time. If they had proportional representation for the Council they should have the same for the House. He favored the elective principle, but not the method advocated in the Bill. Mr. Mills said that the cry of the people was for a change, but he bad heard no good reasons given for such a change. He thought the constitution of the Council could be improved, but the improvement were not embodied in the measure. He would vote for the? second reading, and perhaps in committee they might so amend the Bill as to make it a<#;eptable. The Council adjourned at 0.30 p.m. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. The House met at 2.30 p.m. PUBLTC SERVICE BILL. The Public Service Bill, introduced by Governor's message, was read a first time. CIVIL 'SERVICE COMMISSION. Replying to Mr. Russell. Mr. Massey said that members would be given an opportunity of digesting the report of the Civil Service Commission before the second reading of the Bill. The report would be laid before -the House this week. Mr. Hemes laid before the House the Railway Statement. Replying to Sir J. G. Ward, Mr. Herries said that the matter of the salary of the proposed General Manager of Railways- was still under consideration. IMPREST SUPPLY BILL. An Imprest Supply Bill for £757,400 was introduced by Governor's message. On the motion for the second reading of the Bill Mr. R. McKenzie dealt at length with coal mines, upholding State control, and pointing to the reduction it had effected in the cost to the people of coal. 'Sir J. G. Ward dealt exhaustively with the state of the Public Works* Fnud and the. State Mines Fund. He contended that the liabilities set out in the Financial Statement were apt to mislead, and went on to demonstrate them to be abnormally high. He defended the institution of the State coal mines, which, he said, had directly and indirectly proved to be a very fine thing. ]n round figures, the establishment of the depots had effected a saying of £700,000 to the people since the mines started. Referring to the raising of loans, he declared "that other countries, whose credit was undoubted, had not done as well as New Zealand.

Mr. Eraser said that he did not intend to go into the whole matter of State coal mines to-day. lie would bring down a 'State Coal Mines Bill, which proposed to borrow an amount of money to put the accounts of the mines in proper order.

Mr. Allen, in answer to the Budget criticism, said that when he assumed office he wanted to show the people the position just as he had found it. When he took office the loans policy was unwise, and he was going to alter it. Tie hope the one and three-quarter million loan would carry them on to 1014. After that they would have a balance from the consolidated fund which would take them on. He did not believe in shortdated loans in any case. The Government intended to raise money for 'homes for workers and lo.ms to local bodies. I'nless (,be money market improved, the amount of advances to local bodies would have fo be restricted. On the third reading of the Bill Sir •k G. Ward said that if the Minister of Finance thought lie could keep off the London market for fear of underwriters takipir no ill" loans he would create an undesirable st'il.e of affairs. If they v. : -o iroiii't t(i n'aee all lonns on the local niarkat the price of money would go up ir> an uwlcsi'-able heighS. Mr. Wilford said that Mr. Allen had

under-estimated his revenue and overestimated his expenditure. The House adjourned at 5.30 p.m. The House resumed at 7.30 p.m. Mr. Herries said that they were hearing the old tale of under and over-estima-tion. The Estimates were those of the .Mackenzie Government. the' Ir V RUSSeII: ° h ' Why ditl y ° U aCCCpt -Mr. Herries: "Because we did not be. ieve the Mackenzie Government would he traitors to the country." The gentlemen opposite, he said, were responsible lor making out the Estimates. Mis Government did not have time to see wne■ther they were right or wrong. Mr. Myers envied the Minister of I'inance on coming into possession of the Treasury Benches under such happy circumstances. If the finances were discretely handled, the Minister's position would be a happy one. : Mr. Eraser, referring to Mr. Myers' proposal about converting the loan'into a thirty years' stock loan said that this was gambling in futures. He averred the loan would cost the Government 5 per tent. At the ,nd of two years the market might be all right, but it might not. He deprecated entering into responsibilities without having the money to meet them. That also was gambling in futures, and was a bad policy Mr. Russdi criticised the proposals of the Minister of Finance in connection with sinking funds. The whole thin" was juggling with figures. ][ e declared that the Budget did not contain any reduction of taxation, though the Reform I arty s,platform stated that they were out to accomplish that. Mr. Fisher 1 dwelt upon what he called a pandering system which the Opposiiton had allowed to grow up while they were ni power He said that they might have abolished the Ministerial tyranny which was so manifest. He illustrated his point by alluding to several instances where persons were not allowed to do certain things or obtain certain appointments without the sanction of a Minister. That form of tyranny was now going to cease, even if the Government only remained in office for twelve months.