LICENSING QUESTION.

Taranaki Daily News, Volume XXIII, Issue 142, 10 July 1901, Page 2

LICENSING QUESTION.

ADDRESS BY REV. F. W. ISITT. There WBB a largi attendance at the Theatre Royal on Tuesday night, every mt being occupied, when the Rev. F. W. Isitt gave an address dealing with recent utterance? of Mr. Stmford, S.M., from the Licensing Bench, and •vith aD article on the King Coin'ry, mblished in the Herald. The Mayor (Mr. E. Dockrill) pre ide ', and there were a'do on the platform Rev. S. J. Sm pell and M>\ Glover. Thn Mayor briefly introduced Rev. tsit.t w ho was received with applause, jj r> Isitt, in opening, Faid he was nnfortun&te'y speaking with a gag in ns mouth on the subject ha hid t> h'souFS. no ' i what could he do ? He did not mind row, but there were row* and rows ! a nd when dealing with a question touching if Court, he could not do to ss fully ss he would have liked. Mr Isitt said he was sorry that, circumstance ccmpell Mm to criticize so closely the actions of his old friend Mr R. L Stanford, whom 1 e had known 30 years n<i > as a minis tar of the Church. He was sorry if oither of them bad changed during i there years. Wh°n be kn»w Mr Stan ford firs'", prohibition* wbs not a burn'no quwtion j but now hs had to make ; a reference to his old friend that he ■lid not like. Mr Stanford had n-min-d.-d hitn (the speaker), from his position ■n the Bench, that the •' sacred cause of prohibition could not be forwarded by a disregard for the ino r e saciolcaus" , of truth." When Mr Stanford threw s the word " truth " at him (th j speaker) 'or knew perfectly well he wf s garbling 1 th» word " justico " H» (M' Stat ford) prefer ed the word trut R hich he c-ul' fnrMe as he though', fit, to h 1 wot' 1 ' " jus 'ce.'' Referring to Mi ■ S'anford< retnarks at Stratford that prohibitionists were as muca to bl ircu is slv-"rng se'-ers f r b'eachei of th liw, t'i-> "'a*, Rii-1 Mr I'i't, "n insult 'o 120 000 vo'nrs in the colon?. He ( he sp aker) and oth r& had tone 'o thf> premier i*> ref-'renc ■> to this, and Mr. Seddon had said they should aectr'ain if the words had heau : corr ct'y reported He (Mr. Isitt) cnrtend d that the words had beeD f r > c lv reported. The Rev. Mr. Nix n had qo e'o Mr. Stanford, who admitted thit. he hid us d the words ; b'lt li'er lie snid he bad ustd " words •o th :t • ffv t." At the firs' licensing i meet'nz Mr. Stafford Slid that the Veens n' legislation of 1893 hid created a rondi ion of things under which men « ere tempted to break the law as th y woit'd not have hi en if there were 1 git''mite means for them to satisfy t'eir legi ioia'e appetite. He thraw upon the Legislature the onus of the ! nresent state of things. Mr. Isitt said ''e considered the law was a most wholpsome one. He had spoken to the Premier on Jhe subject, aod said he oily asked that politicians should remove all pr judice from be'wten 'he n'orle and the ba'lot-box, and let the people settle lic r nsinfif qu°stion for themselves as law cf 1893 gave them the power to do. Mr. Stanfoid had said this law had crea'ed conditions under whinh the law v avroken. He ('he speaker) atked if tha granting of 1600 lice"S c s was a preventive of law-breaking 3 A person "ho attended a Waitara r*gotta had to'd him he never saw bo mujh drunkenness as he saw there. Then again only last-wrek, on a sale day at Ok a to, European men and men and women had been S'-en in a disgraceful state ef Mr. Stinford had raid hi mean 1 ; by prohibition the total c s?a'ion of the sale of liquor, and that he was in his pr- sent position be- ' causs p r ohihi f ion did not prohibit. Bu 1 ", Mr. lei't said, there wus no place in the world where they were so near to success as where nn-license h d been carried under the lo?al option poll. All the world ever there was failuri. In New York there were 400 sly-grog shops. Nowhoro were th r y nearer succss than in the Clutha. If the Harold would send a fair-mind'd reporter to the Cluthi with him (Mr. Isitt) he would introduce him to 200 peopl and the reportor could s e 200 other-*, and enquire carefully, and he would saMsfy him that the coi.§umpt : G>n qf liquor had gone down 19-20 th, crimi had almost disappeirrd, and ther< were very few cases of diunkences', The consumption of drink had not disappeared alto? ther because there wer» always pei sons in a p'aoe who would supply liquor if it was made to pay them, Referring to the Gothenberg system. Mr. Isitt said Mr, Stanford advocated it; hut he should fl'S 1 kno■* what he was talking ahout. Mr. Stanford said this system would do away with personal interest in the trade, and so set rid of the main objections. At Gothenb rg, Bergen, Stockholm, Chriet'ana, »nd other places where the system was in fore ihere wa" four times aimuch drunkenn<ss as in tha large ci hies of E gUnd An Ashburton pap r bad susgts'id that a dog-box phou'd be attached to trains for the conveyance of diunks, and the idea was la'ighel at; but in Swelen, he could inform his heireis that a car was actually put on each train for drunks. Mr. A. Sherweli had suggested the linea on which he would * l<ke to run the Wellington hoteis. Men were not to be supplifd when drunk, md ihe managers »e:e not to pu»h the sal-> of liquor, lint cou'd they, Mr. Isitt a>ked, brewers doubling a managei 's salary by givine him a rommissiou ? • An English Royal Commission had investiga'ed the Gothenbu-g system the Army canteen s'stem, and an experienced General had said it was most difficult to pr-vnt cinteen keepers accepting bribes. Mr Isitt then referieJ to the Magistrate's non-rfspect for the liw. There was ke said, a house at Be'l B'ock, and another opposite the New Plymouth l ail way sta'ion. The law piovided tha' no license could be sorted more than a quarter of a m le. Mr Seddon had admitted t > him that it was a " eh trmles evasion of the law," and he also said " we'll stop it." The Bell Block houxe had been sold for £175, yet £1,675 had been paid for the right to sell liquor in it, and the license was wan'ei here. But hec iuld say they were no"; going to have the license l ece. ( Applau e). They we'e fao to face with a shameless exhibition of disregard for i he law. Mr Seddon had said this was an evasion, and Mr Stanford hid p-rmitted it. Sergeant Stagpool was asked in August, 1909, to report on site f.-r a house where thera was only a clay bank. H< had never before heard of an instance of a Chairman cf Licensing Commit'e. asking for a report on a site ten months before granting a license. What , made tha so anxious in the matter ? If the Supreme Court did , not tell them ; if a Patliamentary Com- , mis-ion could not till them ; he would , go on to a public platform and tell them, even if it was libel and he had to \ go te gaol. (Applause.) He was sorry , to see that Sergeant Stagjpoole was to j

ibe removed, "promoted downward." lld was a " straight" officer, and it was a pity to see him going. (Applause.) Mr. S'.anford had eaid a man could buy a privilege and surrender it, taking the risk of getting a privilege elsewhere. Well, Mr. Isitt said, if a business man paid £7OOO for the goodwill of a that was not in existence, and ook the ri ks, he mu»t have something pretty c rtain to go upon. As ts acommoktioa Mr Isitt s»id that was not in the Magistrate's province—he was to deal with licenses. But he (Mr. Isitt) had made enqni ies and found 'hat it was v<ry rarely th'.t all the! accommodation in the town was taxed.' He thought, however, that temperance bca'dinghousfs had a right to compensation from the Government for having to compete with hotal 3 , which poss'Psecl a valuable monopoly. He hop?d every earnest man and woman 1 would consider the awful con*( queue. ■ the misery arid doath which attended < tbe liqti'T traffic, and quoted the fact > that 17,000 men had lost their lives in 'wo years in the Transvaal. People were shocked at this; yet 12,000 diaths occurred ©very mon'h through liquor, and m om was shnclcf d. He had been asked to read the folio *ing resolution : : —That this meeting r gard the granting of the Hotel Cojamonweal'h as extremely uns\<isfacto y, and the publin > «t'it ments of the S.M. that strenuous < efforts had brea made by underhand and illegitimate means to ftffec 1 ! his d 1;i cision, and influer.co his judicial action are so serious tha'searching official inqu:ry be made, aod ask tbe Govern- ■ ment 11 tike immediate step? to ii stiute fuch enquiry, providing that fiere I he no interference with S.ipiemeCourt ; proc9cd : ng°. I Tho Rev. S S rpell then formerly 1 mo-id the rr solution, wlich was e o ded by Mr. Mynott and declared car ied, ; LICENSES IS THE ICING COUNTRY. The Kins Country ques'inn came before a Prrliamevary C mmission, | and Mr. Rym»s, M IT. R. for Egmont, was Ch'i mm of 'hat Commission.! ' Whatever might be Mr, Synjet other qualifications in rt er r.speot», there was no question that he devested pro- . hibition like poison. The only prohibitionist on that Commis ion was 1 Mr. Thomson, of C'utha. Hi (the Speaker) wa3 asked if he w : shad to , eive evidence, and he accepted the in- ' vitation, but his proposal to submit | evidence from those who lived in ' licenPed di tricts was declined. Tbe I condition on which the Eirg Country was opened up was that l'quor should (hut out. He proposed to make a challenge ti the Taranaki r Heralcb. They said that Mr. Ngata had ciused th") Te Au'e students to! chinge the : r opirion. He would raise j a ,£lO note and stake it in contradiction of that assertion. Mr. .Nga'a' wa« horrified at what he s»w as to sly grog selling. Mr. Neata was a high'y edu--1 cated man, but he was in this position,! be wts comprising two diffe'ent things. He slid that prohib't'on had|ah -olutely fai'ed. This was uu'rue. It «*as fa : lure to prohibi l -, not fai'uro of prohibition, that had taken p'aro. Tbe average elisor seimid to careful'y keep his barrow upside diwn for fexr any prohibition facts ehou'd be dropped in. If this was not the case wi k .h tha average editor it had certainly been the case with the editor of the Herald. There was now sime chanre of prohibition, fo far as the Maoris is concerned, for they had got what Europeans had cot, and that was the power to shut out liquor from their settlements, and to inflict fine and .punishment upon those who hrought it in. There was no law to prevent every liquor Beller in the colony from sending every drop of liquor he had into the tho Kin» Country. Yet they talked about prohibition in the eeunrrv. He re f frred in smithing terms to 'hn Auckland liquor merchants and their boasted wealth. Every policeman, he said, that gava evidence before the Police Commissioner said that if clause 33 wore applied to the King country, sly-grog selling would be stopped. Mr in giving evidence, said ho had never s°en a Maori drunk in the King Country, but later on he sxw it the terrible stuff that was sent there which maddened the na ives, There were six hundred naitves in the King Country, and it was these who got the grog and tempted the natives. [A voice—The co-opera-tive workmen have OBly been there a short while]. 'l'he first workmen who went up there were a sober lot, and it is only lately that s'y grog selling has a c s'inied suoh large proportion?, I eft to themselvep, the Maoris were a sober people, and he protested against their being made a drunken and depraved nat'on. The most courageous fo=s the British have ever met were the Maoris and was it not worth whi'e stretching out a hand to save them from the degrada'ion of s'ron? drink? He said he had taken evidence of clergymen and others as to the awful scenes enact el at tangis, handed it in to the Commissioner, but not one of tho e sworn declarations was p intrd. He wanted to know why they dared do this, and he hoped some members of the house would take the matter up. Ha protested against a bar being raised against the progress aed material welfare of the natives, and for what ? In ord< r that, they might satisfy the greed of the Auckland liquor merchant. Mr Snell asked Mr. Isitt if he was 'n favour t f giving a mon-poly, and a-ked for a direct answer—Y« s or no. Mr. Isi't replied that he was opposed to the Pale of l'quor altogether. [A person in the gallery here ceited some amusement by inte jections in a very cu'ious tone of voice], Mr. Montefiore asked Mr. Isitt if he had not sta'ed that 1-st Wednesday there was disgraceful scents of drunkenness at. Okato. Mr. Isitt said he was not there himself, but he had the information from a most truthful source and from one who r e word wou'd be accepted. Mr, Montefiore pressed for the name. Mr. Isitt said he would answer the qu°stion by an anedocte. (Probsts). Well if he stayed for an hour he would answer tbe question his own way or not at all. The piint of the anecdote was that he would take the evidence of oue who did see it ag<in«t half-a- i dozen who did ret see. Mr. Montefiore still pressed for the name. Mr. Isitt rf fused at anyone's bidding to give the name, but he undertook to do so at the proper place. He would report tbe cise when he got to Wei- i lington to the Commissioner of Police ar.d Minister of Justice. Mr. Montefiore repudia'ed the slur ; cast on tha district, but he admitted one.case of drunkenness. Mr. Isitt said ho had given the nam's of his friends to the Chairman, , and asked him to say whether their word wits reliable. ( The Mayor stated that if either of the gentlemen whese names had been I given him bad made the statement toll him fao eheuld have believed them, t

Mr. John Elliott inquired what wer.i the terms of clause 33, and at Mr. Isitt's invitation, mounted the platform. He said he had listened attentively to Mr. Isitt's remarks as to the King Country, and as a resident there felt considerable interest in the subject. He represented neither the liquor traffic nor the prohibitionists. He did not think Mr. Isitt's remarks had been just as conditions hid so grea'ly altered that new Uws were required He claimed that the pioneers should not be penalised, but should have the same privileges in the King Country as they had in Naw Jflymouth. He spokel highly of Mr. 0. W. H ursthouse, whose j | truthfulness and uprightness he oould vouch for. Mr. Hurs'house had been like a father to the Maoris. (Laughtar). Like Mr. Ngata, he (the speaker) had changed his views. He believed that if the same laws were made to apply in the King Country as existed elsewhere there would be no s y grrg-petling. Mr. Isitt had made great capital out of the action of the students cf T® Auti Col lege. Mr. Ngaki had said that if there were propsi ly licenced houses, sly greg selling would be done away with, and in so saying he tiok a right and .straightforward course. He ('he Speaker) thought it was a piece of impertinence for pe>ple who had never b:en to the KiDg Country, and knew nothing of the surrounding circumstance?, to te'l tho e who lived there what they shoul 1 do. He was anxious to uphold the Maoris, whose interest he hid quite as much at heart a* Mr. Isitt or anyone els? present. Mr. Isitt reiterated the conditions on which the King Country was opened. No pakehi, he said, who went there had any right to alter that contract, nor could anything justify him io violating it. If white settlor* were not content to be there without liquor then let them leave the pi ice sooner than introduce it. Men who had given their lives for the benefit ef the Maoris said with one accord that liquor should not be a'lowed in the King Country. If the Maoris had changed their opinion about prohibition he had tbe right to prove that prohibi ion hid not failed. He referred again to tbe case of Edmund Perry piling the Government 20s a J year for four years for tbe privilege o f brewing: and selling beer. Mr. Elliott: What sort of beer. Mr. Tsitt; Alcoholic liquor. Mr. Elliott: No. It was only p'ain hop beer—a non-intoxicant, Mr. Isitt quoted from the evidence before tbe Police O mmis-ion to show that tho license was for the s Id o r a'ooholio liquor. Mr. Elliott said he had known Wahanui to sell liquo-, and te knew that Wahanui bad signed the petition at Wellington under a misapprehension, owing to a false, s'atement. It wa'ha Maoris that so''d the l'quor, tnd ht 'the speaker) w. q'd take Mr. Isitt through all the M lori villages, and in any one he would undertake that he would be supplied with as muoh liquor as he cou'd drink, and also of suoh a nature as woedd kill other m«. n . If the snli of liqnor was legal : sed th°n the quality sold wou'd not have that paioonoua efieot which it had at present. He contended that the man referred to by Mr. Isitt as brewing beer made simply hop beir. It happened, however, that one sample had been analysed and had b en found to contain eligh'ly over the authorised quantity of alcohol. Evi.-n the Bile or cider had been stopped.

Mr, Isitt said than Wahanui was bribf dby cash. He owned an accora modation house, and wai told by th» Auckland merchants thit if he did not get a license he would not git his money bick, so he did what Europeans would h»Vri done, and signed a petition in favour of a licens t; but tefoie lit died he acknow'edged he h d <*one wrong, and wan aoxi >us to undo i . The Maoris were the on'y aboriginals under British rule who were aUowei to have liqu >r. He urgeJ tbe p ople to stand by the Maoris. Mr. Oollia a«k D d Mr. Elliott whe'her be understood him to (ay that if licenses were {granted in! the King Country it would elevate the Maoris. Mr. E'Ho'.t absented. Mr. Oollia rtf*nvd to the three licensed bouses at WaiUra, and asked whether they had tended to eleva'e the Maoris. Mr. Elliott siid he oonsMered that the ci< oumsiaoces tbere were not the same as in tbe King Country, but in contended that there was less drmike - oesi wh°re there wer* licem-e*. The rao'-.ion protest : n» f.gains 1 intro*<?ucirg licenses into the King Country was then moved and seconded. Before it was vo'ed upon Mr.EUi tt isked thifc thos« present shou'd understand thi question on which they were »skel to vote «nd gave h<s r.-aaer\s. The mo ion was then put and declared cani-d. The mee'ing concluded nbsut. 10.30.