A NATIVE BILL. A BREEZE IN THE HOUSE. SIR GEORGE AND SIR HARRY. Wellington, September 14.

Te Aroha News, Volume VII, Issue 403, 18 September 1889, Page 5

A NATIVE BILL. A BREEZE IN THE HOUSE. SIR GEORGE AND SIR HARRY. Wellington, September 14.

Tun House yesterday afternoon resolved itself into committoe for the further con -iderabion of the Native Lund Court Acts Amendment Bill. Sir George Grey suggested that the Bill bo withdrawn, as it was improper to proceed with such an important measure so late in the session. The Native Minister paid he could nob do thai, as the Bill was framed in the interests of justice and mercy. A long discussion took placo in reference to the clause validating past transactions, and in the absence of information as to the nature of the transactions to be be covered, Sir George Grey moved that progie&s bo reported. Thie was lost by 35 to 16. Koferonce having been made by Sir George Grey to Sir .lames Forgus=on's Mangatautaii claim, the Native Minister said that he believed a Crown grant had been issued with respect to it, though it was contrary to the recommendation of the Native Land Court. Sir George Grey vigorously protested against such a case being validated, holding that it would inilict injustice upon a large number of natives. He took special exception to a clause which provided that a Trust Commission should act as a court of equity and good conscience without being bound by any legal rules of evidence, and moved that the Chairman lea\e the chair, which was losb on the voices. The clause so dealing with the procedure on the removal of the restrictions led to a \ cry long discussion, particularly with re- , gard to Sir James Fergusson's claim. A motion by Sir George Grey that progress be icported was lost on the voices. Mr Hutchison moved that the Chairman leave the chair, and traced the history of Sir James Fergusson's dealings, contending that they were illegal in their inception and ought not to be validated. This affair, he argued, threw an entirely new light upon the Bill, and the Native AOairs Committee should be given an opportunity of revising their action upon the measure. Sir George Grey demanded the production of the papers bearing upon the ca&e and threatened to delay the Bill until they were forthcoming. The Premier denied that any part of the Bill could by any side wind have the slightest beaiing upon Sir James Fergusons transanctions. He repeated however, an offer which he had made earlior in the discussion to give full infoimation next day as the debate continued. The Fiemier challenged the Committee to throw out the clauses as the Government cared nothing about them. After the dinneradjournment Mr Hutchison said he understood the action of the Government had been such as to alter the nature of Sir James Fcrgusson's transaction from one that was actually illegal to one that was only technically defective. He asked the Committee to delay the Bill till the Government laid the actual facts bofore them. Sir George Grey made a vigorous speech in opposition to the Bill. The Premier twitted the hon. gentleman with being unable to do anything but talk, and talk in such a way as almo^b to make people believe him if they did not know him. The hon. gentleman had missed his vocation, and ought to have been an actor. He always scouted anything that was useful and almosb invariably talked to the galleries, for he very seldom addressed the House. For weeks the Bill had been before theNabiveAffairi- Committee, who had sifted everything in theinteiests of the natives. Sir Georsre Grey had brought down utterly impracticable amendments with an utter disregard of the interests of the settler?, bub what did the hon. gentleman caie about the settlers? Ig was the little children in the street and the unborn millions that hega\ehis attention to. What he (the Premier) wanted to do was to do Justine to tho men who had borne the burden and heat of the day. Sir Goorge did not want to settle anything ; he only wanted something perpetually to talk about. At the end of every session he discovered some fancied grievance, just as he had done now, and he knew quite well that there was nothing whatever in the Bill that related to Sir J. Fergusson's case. There were other reasons underlying his action. What they were he (the Premier) would nob say, bub they were nob noble reasons. It would always be Sir George who would wanb to hang everybhing up and balk largely aboub unborn millions. Pie had walked oub of the Committee room when the Committee was doing useful work for the settlers because his own unpractical plan was nob adopted, but they all knew the hon. gentleman's ways and thab bhei'e was nothing pracbical aboub him. He (the Premier) was willing to meeb Sir George Grey ab any time and give him tho information ho wanted, bub he would nob do it in Committee because the Chairman had said it would be againsb bhe Standing Orders, and because Sir George Grey knew as well as he did thab Sir James Fergusson'h case was not dealt with in the Bill, Sir George Grey quoted the Premier as having said ho never attended the meeting of the Commibbee. The Premier : I didn't say thab. I say you cleared out. Sir George Grey : That I cleared out, I thank him for bhe word. The hon. genbleman will see ibs extreme applicability. > Proceeding, Sir George Grey said that ( amongsb the Committee ho found members who were deeply inborested in the Bill. After careful consideration he concluded that they were in the position of a Bench of Judges, and thab being so interested persons ought nob to sib. Knowing he would be out-voted, and thab the Premier would throw it in hie

toebh that he had sat thore and silentl acquiesced in the proceedings he declined to tako any iurthor part in the discussion. In this he might have acted wrongly, bub hi.s conscience acquitted him, and he believed thab he had done right. The Premier had said that the House did not listen to him, and yet the other day he (Sir Georgo Grey) had carried 59 members into the lobby against the Government, whilo the Premier could only get tho support of 13, who followod him out of affection. (Laughter.) Mr Kerr did not believe that there wore any interested persons in tho Committee, and challenged the Premier to say whether there were or not. Tho Premier said the four native members were on tho Committee and practically agreed with the Bill as it now stood. If there were interested persons in tho Committee the Committee ought to have reported the fact. Mr Kerr asked Sir Geo. Grey to name the members of tho Committee who were interested. Mr Ballance paid the real question at issue was whother tho Bill tended to validate impioper transaction?. Ho was informed by a legal authority that there wero clauses in the Bill, clauses 19 and 30 for instance, which would validate Sir James Fergusson's transaction. It appeared that the issue of tho Crown grant left only a technical difficulty in tho way, and that would bo o\ ercome by tho passing of the Bill. His authority was thab of the hon. member for Waitotara (Mr Hutchi son). If the Government would only mako a statement instead of scolding, the matter would easily be settled. The Native Minister said the Government would not abandon any parbot the Bill, but thoy were willing bo amend it in such a way ns to make it clear to everybody that no improper transaction was being validated. Mr Fisher protested against the Premier's snubbings and scoldings, and blamed the Government for bringing down the Bill so late. He for one would not submit to bo told at this labo sbage of the session that he did nob understand the Bill, or that if he did understand it ho was obstructing. The Houso had no right to be spoken to in the tone assumed by the Premier, and if the latter wanted to get the business of the .->esi*ion over he was going the wrong way about it. Membeis would nob have the Bill rammed down their bin oats, and if there was to bo any more scolding ho would be prepared to sib there tor several hours more if necessary. The discussion was prolonged until the supper adjournment. Clauso after clause was carried, and various amendments made in the measure. During the supper adjournment an agreement Mas come to between the Native Minister and the parties opposed to the Bill, bo thab when bhe House again met the provision thab the Commissioners should act as a court of equity and good conscience was struck out. Clause 19, which provides for bhe iemo\al of certain restrictions, was also sbruck out. The Bill was then reported and passed its final .stages.