LEGISLATIVE AMENITIES. Wellington, Nov. 16.

Te Aroha News, Volume V, Issue 229, 19 November 1887, Page 1

LEGISLATIVE AMENITIES. Wellington, Nov. 16.

Oxi: of the most extraordinary scenes that liave occurred in the House for some con. siderable time took place yesterday afternoon, and is now the all-absorbing subject of conversation. Sir Julius Vogel proceeded to extreme lengths in making a personal explanation, and made acclamations reflecting seriously upon a certain member of the House. He was repeatedly called co order, but persisted in his action, and ultimately the Speaker adopted the extreme course of naming the hon. gentleman. The trouble arose out of a question asked by Mr R. Thompson, of Whangarei, who wanted to know what truth there was in the statement that Sir Julius Vogel still retained the services of two public servants. The- Premier replied to the effect that the services of the Armed Constabulary men were paid for by Sir Julius Vogel, while that gentleman had informed the Government that the services of the messenger were at their disposal when they required him. Sir Julius Vogel then asked permission to say a few words by way of personal explanation, and explained the position of the servants referred to. At greater length he complained of attacks that were being made upon him, and said that now he had left the Government Benches he had determined to take a stand, and would not permit members to attack him in tins way. Sir Julius then proceeded as follows : — I have a few words to say with regard to the member for Marsden, and I am willing to make every allowance for his want of knowledge of the world, of men, and of manners. The Speaker (Sir G. M. O'Rorke) said lie could not allow this expression, and called upon Sir Julius to withdraw it. Sir J. Vogel : I am going 'to speak very plainly. The Speaker : Do you persist in using those word-; ? You must withdraw them. As I have before said, nothing is more essential to the proper conduct ot business than that there should bo proper and gentlemanty conduct and language used between members. (Hear, hear.) Sir J. Vogel : Will you be so good, Sir, As to tell me which are the words you object to ? The Speaker : Charging an hon. member of this House with a want of manners. Sir J. Vogel : Then I will withdraw the words and say " with an obvious want of knowledge of the usages and customs among persons who are accustomed to good society." The Speaker : I must say now that you are trespassing on the indulgence of the House and the chair in the language }ou are using. (Mr Seddon : " No.") Sir J. Vogel : I shall be very much worse before I am done. The Speaker : If the hon. gentleman will persist in the language it will be ray duty for the first time to exercise the authority I have by naming that gentleman. I do not wish to do it, but it will be my duty, and 1 shall not flinch from it. I again trust the hon. gentleman will perceive that he is proceeding to a course which the House will not tolerate. Sir Julius Vogel : Well, I will say, Sir, " the usages of society." The Speaker : I shall want to know by is hat right you claim to proceed with an attack on the hon. member, I am quite willing, if any attack is made on you, to give you full liberty to vindicate yourself, but having vindicated yoxirself, there must be moderation of views towards other hon. members. Sir J. Vogel : I shall not withdraw. I ask why my infirmity, which is the act of God, should be brought before the Hou.se when the messengers have to give me attention, when tney time after time have to give attention to others tor the act of the dcvil — the lust of liquor. The Speaker then proceeded to name Sir Julius Vogel in the following terms : — Sir Julius Vogel, the language you are using towards this House is so disrespectful that I cannot address you as a member for a district, but I no\y name you as violating the good taste due from one member to another. You will now make such explanation as you think proper and then withdraw while the House deals with the case. Sir Julius Vogel : Ido not believe the House will ask me to withdraw what I have said. Ido not believe you could have understood me when I paid it. The Speaker : I wish you to wichdraw from the House. 1 have named you as offending the rights of the House. Sir J. Vogel : But before 1 withdraw I have the right to make an explanation. The Speaker ; Yes ; I have already intimated that you may make such explanation of the language used as you think proper, and then withdraw while the House decides what it will do in the matter. Sir Julius remarked that it was known that he required more than ordinary assistance, and then proceeded : It is notorious that for years past there are members so given to drink, and occasionally drunkards, v/ho required a great deal more assistance from the messenger than I do, and that is never brought before the House. My infirmity, as I said, is the acb of God, and is that a matter to be brought before the House in this manner, when we do not inquire what is the extra assistance rendered to members or to the danger which this great building runs in being occupied by members who are notoriously from time to time given to excesses, and become habitual drunkards for the time being? I do not know what lam asked to explain, but I say I haA r o the right to make that statement, if questions of this kind are allowed j and I say this— that one of the high officers of this House was elected to his office upon being forced to take the pledge, and that he gave his resignation into the hands of one of the Ministers, Mr Fergus rose co a point of ordez*. The Speaker : I cannot allow this to go any f artner, and as you persist in attacking other members in this way it will be my duty to suspend you. I cannot hear you any more, and must request you to withdraw.

Mr Fergus : I desire to call your attention to the fact that there are strangers in the galleries. The Speaker thereupon ordered the galleries to be cleared, and the press representatives, as well as the general public were compelled to leave the chamber. After the galleries had been cleared of strangers it was fcund that several of the members of the Upper House were in their gallery. Instructions were given that they also should leave. Sir J. Vogel was then called upon for an explanation. He began by referring to the generous treatment he had received at the hands of the House in times that were past. iHon. members anticipated his every wish even to the open- | ing of doors for him and other acts of attention which he should never forget, and now for him to be subjected to insults such as were intended by the question submitted by the lion, member for Marsden was simply unbearable. When he knew of members who, by the act of the devil and their drunkenness, required the attendance of special messengers to wait upon them, and when he remembered also the fact that one high official was required to take the pledge and to place his resignation in the hands of a Minister to be used if the necessity arose, he felt insulted that such a question should have been tipon the order paper, and he thought the Government would have been acting within their rights if they had refused it being placed there. Before retiring he would like to know upon which rule he was now asked to retire. The Speaker reminded him that it was his (Sir Julius's) duty to know the Standing Orders, but referred him to Rule 138. After the retirement of Sir Julius the Speaker called upon the head of the Government to move a motion on the subject before the House. The Premier, on rising, said he thought it would have been impossible for one with the parliamentary experience of Sir Juluirf to have so far forgotten himself as to make use of the language complained of. The hon. membor I for Marsden, who put the question, had a perfect right to know how the public servants were employed, whether they were members of the A.O. or messengers of the House, and for a member in the exercise of his duty to have hurled against himself and the other members of the House without i any justification, words such as those used by Sir Julius Vogel seemed to him altogether unreasonable. If it were true that members got so drunk that they required special assistance of the messengers, let it be sheeted home to the offendors, and not place the whole House under a stigma of this kind, but instead of apologising for ' such conduct, when called upon, to insult the House, still further by the use of language of a grosser nature, was to him exceedingly reprehensible. He would there- | fore move "That the hon. member ior i Christchurch North — Sir J. Vogel — be called upon to apologise, and be admonished by the speaker for the language used." Sir (t. Grey reminded the House that a similar scene had taken place dining the time when Sir F. D. Bell occupied the chair, and it was then agreed that there should be obtained from the "Hansard" reporter the exact words he used. Ho suggested that a similar comse should be adopted in this case. The Speaker said that the statment was quite correct, but that Sir F. D. Bell had been blamed for the weakness then exhibited. Mr Seddon finished a long speech by moving "That the 'Hansard' reports of the words used by the Hon, Member for Chris tchurch North, and for which he was named b} r the Speaker, be procured so that the Houte may deal fairly with the Hon. gentleman named, and that the debate be adjourned until the words used are before the House. " Mr Hutchinson contended that the Speaker had not dealt with the matter accu. l : 'irr to Parliamentaiy \isage, as laid down b \ *111 1 y, and desired to know what would be the result of Sir Julius refusing to obey the mandate of the Speaker when ordered to retire. The Speaker said that it would have been his duty to have asked the House to pass a resolution upon the subject, and then if the pcr&on named refused to leave, it would have been his duty to call upon the Sergeant-at- Arms to remove the offender. The Colonial Secretary followed, and urged members to tiphold the Speaker in his ruling, and the dignity of the House. The House adjourned at 5.30, and on resuming Mr Hutchinson ro&e to a point of order as to whether the Speaker was justified when clearing the galleries of strangers that he should have at the time insisted upon the departure of the "Hansard" reporters. He contended that they were officials of the House, and should therefore have been allowed to remain. In support "of his contention he submitted a case in the English House of Commons (Vol. 105, 3rd series of 18th May, 1849) when a debate on the Parliamentary Oaths Bill was under discussion. The whole debate, after tho strangers had been called upon to leave, was still reported. Mr Seddon suggested that not only should tho "Hansard" reporters be allowed to re-enter but all the reporters, because there were members in the House taking notes of proceeding!*, and he thought it unfair that all the newspapers should not have the .same privileges as that about to be conferred upon those who had special reporters amongst the members. The Premier said that as the feeling still ran rather high it would be better to ad- i journ the question till to-morrow. He thought that if Sir Julius Vogel had the opportunity of reading what he had said that lie would no doubt make a further explanation which might be acceptable to the ' House. It would be better, therefore, to cease debating the subject because further talk* would only lead to further complications. Mr Fitzherbert questioned the ruling of the Speaker upon the subject. When Sir J. Vogel had asked under what rule he was being dealt with the Speaker had said 138. Now 138 dealt with a member who was making a noise or for disorderly oonduct.' Tho Speaker here interjected 138 and 136.

Mi' Fitzherbert continued : If under 136 then no provision there for talcing down the words used, that being provided for in clause 133. He believed that a mistake had been made by the Speaker in the manner in which he had dealt with the question and by Sir J. Vogel in not withdrawing the objectionable words after having made use of them. Mr Scobie McKenzie said that the whole business was of a vary unpleasant character. He thought that when we looked at all the circumstances we should be prepared to take a different position to that now assumed. In the first place he thought the question was certainly one in bad taste ; in the second place, he contended that the question ought never to have been put. May upon " Parliamentary Practice " had laid it down that when a question was submitted that would affect the personal character of a member it must hot be put, but must be submitted to the House by a notice of motion so that the person affected might have the right to defend himself. If, therefore, the question was ill-advised and unparliamentary, he thought this should weigh with the House and palliate the offence fox- which Sir Julius was charged, and he would now suggest that the member Chris tchurch North should be called in, and he thought he would make an explanation satisfactory to the House. Mr Turnbull desired to know what position Sir Julius would be in if the debate was adjourned. Would he be allowed to return to the Houso pending the decision, or would he be debarred from representing his constituents in the important question that might come before the House ? Sir J. Hall expressed his sorrow that the motion of the Premier to adjourn the debate had not been accepted. The object was not to exclude Sir Julius. Mr Levestam said they should not adjourn until the motion of Mr Seddon had been carried and the words complained of had been reported. He felt sui © that if anyone deserved censure it was not Sir J. Vogel, but the member for Marsdcn. He thought that taking into account Sir Julius Vogel's illness the House instead of objecting to his using the servants, should be only too pleased to allow him the privilege. Mr Monk : By pmate subscription, but not at the public expense. Mr R. Thompson expressed regret that he was the cause of such a waste of time. In putting the question lie did not mean any offence, but hearing so much about these servants being retained, he felt he would not be doing his duty if he did not raise the matter the House. As for his being made a catspaw of by other members he thought when they knew him better they would learn that it was not an easy matter to do so. No member of the House knew what he proposed to do until they saw the order paper. Hearing of these extravagances he thought he was justified in taking the course he did, and therefore did not regret what he had done, and should not be prepared to withdraw one word. After some further discussion the motion for adjournment was carried. Si On resuming Mr Valentine moved the adjournment of the House till the following day. Mr Seddon charges the Premier with taking advantage of his potion of a tyrannical majority to force the question, when the leader of the Opposition was debarred from taking his seat. The motion for adjournment was agreed to.