VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS.

Te Aroha News, Volume V, Issue 206, 11 June 1887, Page 8

VILLAGE SETTLEMENTS.

TiiEur, was another warm debate yesterday afternoon on the liability incurred on ae. count of Village Settlements. On the House assembling, the debate on the Public Revenues Bill was resinned. Major Atkinson inquired whether there weie any means of haung this debate in committee fully reported. The matter was of very great impoitance to the country, and great interest was taken in it. Mr Hanilin replied that the Speaker had already given instructions to the Hansard staff to have the matter fully reported. The real question was not the desirability of the system of perpetual leasing, but the right of the Government to enter into such serious engagements without the authority of the House/ He asked if the Minister of Lands had it in his mind to incur a liability of 1.09,000, when a vote of LC,OOO was before the House. Mr Ballance replied that he had no particular amount in his mind. As work went on he had become more and more impressed with the necessities of the colony. He believed the expenditure would re illy come within L 50,000, as the whole of the land had not been cleared. The liability so far would be about L5O per head. He was fully impressed -\\ ith the importance of this work, and believed it must go on. They had done good work for the colony in settling 1,000 families on the land within 12 months. If this House would not justify his action, he was satisfied that he would receive his justification from the country and from the ne <.h House. Sir George Grey asked for a return of the stewards and salaries paid to them, and Mr X C. Buckland for a return of the commissions paid to agents or others. Mr Fulton objected to the political aspect of the whole affair, and objected to these people being put on land, and votes manufactured by the Ministerial lands with aid of Government money. He related how Mr Hodge was refused a passage in the Hinemoa, when on his way to Wellington to " watch the Auckland members." He went to Mr Lundon, who telegraphed to Mr Ballance, and a passage was granted in epite of the Speaker's refusal. This was another instance of favours granted for political purposes. Mr Dargaville, who gave Mr Hodge a warm five minutes, said he was a political agent who stood at street corners in Auckland. He had been properly refused a passage, but it was granted by the Government because he was the bearer of a petition relative to the female suffrage. Mr Dargaville then proceeded to defend Mr , Lundon, and caused some laughter by (describing him as an excitable Irishman, vjvho was not responsible for what was said. |He had done valuable work in placing the ;&ucklundtanemployedbn Village Settlement Tland. The liability of L 69,000, of which so fljuch was made, was only a loan consistent with the regulation's approved of last session Joy .the House, and was money well invested s in improving -the land. He was satisfied with 'the prospects of these settlers, and knetw instances where men supported them- > selves and their families from the produce of two acres of land planted with crops and fruit trees. The land was so good that they joften had yields four times a year. (Laughter.) Major Atkumn urged that the question . be -defeated till they got the returns. Therfo were ofther bills to consider, and it was .plain thftt the bill could riot be passed till • there was if urther information. The Prejpaier said he had no objection to progress being reported, if it were the wish of the Coinojjittee, but they could not proceed with further business till this business was passed. Major Atkinson resisted this as an. interference with the liberties of the House. Appropriation was never brought forward till all other bills were settled. The 'Government now sought to depart from this custom. The Premier argued that a vote of L 5,000 was only asked for the expenditure of one year, and members must have known that fche regulations which they passed last year involved certain contingencies. He could not see what further information was required. Mr Hursthouse said he was not surprised to hear from Mr Dargaville that excitable Irishmen were not responsible for what they said. The member for Auckland West probably said this because he was an Irishman. If ho over heard an electioneering speech, thatwhioh hadbeen justdelivered by $y Dargavilig was one, It was well known

that he was wooing the votes of a Northern district, in which were some of these settlers. Mr Dargaville : Not many. Mr Huvsthouse, referring to Mr Hodge, said that individual told him that he camo here in the interests of the Radical Reform Association, and especially to watch, themember for Auckland West. ' (Laughter.) Mr Hursthouse denied what had been asserted by Mr Dargaville, that this systemwas the same ns deferred payment selec--tions, because in the ca £ c of the deferred payment sections improvement* were made ab the cost of the settlers, and with the village settlements it was at the excuse of the Government. He predicted that these settlements would not succeed, and would involve a vast expenditure of moneys Mr Baliance here laid on the t^blc maps showing the locality of the settlements, and said that further returns would be to hand immediately. There would be no objection 1 to reporting progress and taking up the Revenues Bill again at 7.30 p.m. ' Ha would not lay the correspondence on fclio table, but would produce what was J avail/ible. The information asked for by ,the member for Auckland East would ,be t produced if pos : siMo. Mr Turnbull said the question in the minds of members wa.s not. so much the amount of the unauthorised fcxpenditurejas the agents employed. tCh^imhi^^ion r jqn*, his mind last year was tftW4hti'd\<ould tJ be a large expenditure, and this impression was so strong that he interviewed the Minister of Lands to see if it was not possible to get some of the expenditure, in his district. The work was a gieat one, and he was convinced that the .member for Auckland East u as making- a groat mistake when he spoke of these settler* as serfs. The question that would agitate the House constantly would be to gi\c the settlers the fee simple of their sections, and he hoped and was convinced, that they would gefc them— on the return, of course, of the money advanced to them by the Government. The Opposition would have failed in their duty it (hey had not .called attention to thi» laigc amount of unauthorised cxpendituie. The matter was, however, not discussed on broad general grounds, but in a narrow provincial groove, lie objected to any man who was not in the House being traduced as had been done in the case ot Mr Lun don. Mr Hobbs was convinced -that the .village settlers would be amused when they heard that the member for Auckland West had come foiward to unexpectedly ns their champion. He read a telegram from Mr Darga\illeto the Auckland "He. aid," in which the writer described a % isit of village settlers to Ahipara races, and asked how many went. Mr Dargaville : Eight or ton, and with money in their pockets. Mr Hobks continued : The telegram also said that the settlers had a piano and singing and dancing went on. That telegram was calculated do the settlers harm. Membcis would have an idea they woio very well oft", and would refu&e to gi\e them the assistance to which they .w.ei;e entitled. He predicted that Mr Lundon would make a big claim for his serviced * Progress was reported^ rs£, 4."30 # and the question adjourned till 7j^O.-; At the evening sitting,' •Voluminous correspondence relating to village settlements North of Auckland was 'kid on 'the table. Major Atkinson thereupon jacked that in order to enable lion, mumb.er.-3 to look at this correspondence and ihe r'fcturn (also presented by the Minister of Lecuds), further discussion on the matter be deferred till today. To this suggestion - *he Premier assented, and the Public'Rere&ues^Bill was made an order for the &]ity>,£ar- 2."50 today. ... ,> J(f , The return of Village Settle'smenls, shows the number of sections' p'rQclaimed ;fo be 2,216; number of sections taken up,),, 186 f advances made on account of building?, Ll ,315; advances made on account of bosh felling, etc. ,L 950; liabilities on account of lend taken up,L62,820. The names and sal.ariesof officers employed at the Village S^tjtiocpeatfa.are, C.^ H. J. Hill (Auckland), L 275 ;, 0, E. Mackay (Hawke's Bay and Wellington), L 270 ; J. 15. March (Canterbury), L 42 5; Colin Allan (Dunedin), L 323 j A. W. .Sid<?ole (Wellington), L3O ; H. P. Kavanagn tAuckland), 15s per day; E. Fairburn, G Menzies and A. Lindins, also of Auckland, 10s (each per diem.

Wellington*, Tuesday. The debate on this subject' was resumed in , tho House to-day by Mr Duncan, -who defended the expenditure ort'village settlements, but was satisfied tiiat such" & scheme could not be established ,, without Government assistance. He only wished that such settlements -had been established in his district. -This was the first practical endeavdur to take the unemployed by the hand and open for them the door of hope for the future of themI selves and families. Major Atkinson said the'" general feeling appeared to be that this disottssion should be brought to a close as &6ofy as possible. It was evident that they 1 cfduld not get definite information from $b.e Government of what they were doing and what they proposed to do. The question was not the desirability of such a- schefifVe of settlement, but the action of: "the Minister of Lands in incurring such . a large liability as L 70,000 when " only L 5,000 was voted. No Parliament doing fys duty to the people could consent to any Minister going so far on his own res^Qnsijulity. .He would like to Unow how' much of the L 5,000 ! now asked! for was to be spent upon settlers now located find how much' on tha establishment of new settlers." Further tniorma.tion was also required relative to the exact position and authority of Mr Lund'on. .Mr Ballance said the nlember for^Egmont had put the matter very 'fairly, and h£ wmld give the information asked for. The Public Works- Statement, which \WQuJd have been brought forward if .certain events had not interfered, contained a vote of L 50,000. His intentions respecting it would have been explained. The .actual expenditure for the year was L 8,200, including L 6,000 advances. Thus would be taken out of the L 62,000 liabilities^ which extended over two years. Nearly the wholo of the L 5,000 asked for j would be required for liabilities. He would now state what they had done in this village settlement work. Prom the Ist April last till May 28th in Auckland 74 families had been settled on 3,204 acres ; in Taranaki, 50 acres hiiel been settled ; in Wellington 10 families had been settled on 134 acres; in Canterbury 50 families on 1955 acres ; in 0tag0,46 families on 751 acres ; in Southland 12 families on 119 acres. Thus 194 families had been located on 6,258 acres in the period of eight weeks. They believed that 150 additional families could be placed on the land up till next September. It was part of the Government policy to go on with tho work in the interregnum, and when a new House met they would then ask for funds to meet the liabilities inourred. So far as Mr • Lundon was concerned, there was no doubt he had performed his duties with great energy and zeal. He was not prepared to say .that he had performed his duties with the regularity of an ordinary publio official, > because anyone who knew

Mr Lundon knew that suoh a thing was impossible. For some time his opinion had been that this work should bo done by the ordinary officials of the Department, and it was his intention that from the end of June the work of Mr Lundon should be brought to a conclusion. In reply'to Major Atkinson, Mr Ballance said Mr Lundon had no authority over Mr Percy Smith and the public officials, and they, not Mr Lundon, were held responsible for the success of establishing the scheme. Mr .Fisher approved warmly of the settlement of the people on the land, but objected to the burden of charitable aid in Auckland being placed on the consolidated revenne. He objected to such a responsible officer as the Assistant Surveyor-General being under the orders of irrepressible men 'like^Mr Lundon, and disapproved of the i methods of carrying out the settlement scheme It was a matter for satisfaction thai the| employment of Mr Lundon was to cease. In reply to Mr Ormond Mr Ballance said he did not purpose to go on with the location of settlers unless he had the authority of the House. The Premier defended the work done for "iHe districts north of Auckland, and said special settlers would resent Mr Fisher's allusion to charitable aid relief. He predicted further unemployed troubles within the next twelve- months, and was satisfied tfhat whatever Government was in power they would find the best remedy for these agitators in the Village Settlement scheme. Mr Montgomery complained of the unfair prominence given to the perpetual lease .system over other land settlement systems in force. Mr E. F. Richardson declared that large sums of money had been spent in opening up useless lands, and said the Minister of Lands deserved a direct vote of censure in so far exceeding the vote of the House. Mr J. 0. Buckland,who claimed to have more experience of bush settlement in his little finger than the whole Bench of Ministers possessed, said if the Minister of Lands had endeavoured to make land settlement popular he would have done some good. Until they got a Government which believed in introducing from England sample fanners who possessed capital, their policy would be of no avail to the country. He instanced the want of success of the military settlements in the Waikato as a proof of the difficulties in the way of the Village Settlement Scheme. Dr. Newman regretted the House had no opportunity of placing on record -its sense respecting the excessive liability incurred by Mr Ballance. If the House refused to uitify the engagements entered into, the settlers could sue the Minister of Lands, and he would be placed in an awkward position. They had been told that Mr Lundon received nothing for his -services, and now he got 12s Gd per day, and he would like to know if this was all he was to receive. Mr Ballance said it would be -foand, on looking at the land account, that they had not confined themselves to one system of settlement alone. He considered the Homestead system ruinous and wasteful. Although these settlors might struggle on for years, the chances were against them. The tendency of new arrivals was to buy improved land, and of fifty who came out from England under the small farmers, settlement system last year, nearly every one had bought improved land. The money paid to Mr Lundon was for travelling expenses. In reply to Ormond, Mr Ballance said nearly the whole of the L 53,000 for harbour defences was for war material on the way, and which would shortly be landed in the colony. Mr Scobie Mackenzie asked on what Mr Ballance based his condemnation of the homestead system. Had they ever tried At ? Mr Ballance : Yes ; in Auckland. His opposition to the system was that it was a form of land purchase, and was opposed to the system of perpetual lease, of which he (Mr Ballance) was such a strong admirer. Mr Mackenzie argued at some length in support of the freehold system. Sir Robert Stout, in reply, said if the country had had the perpetual lease system in force since the early days of the colony taxation would not have been so heavy. The State would have better control of the land, and such great monopoly in land holding would not exist. He predicted that the State would yet have to revise the system of land tenure in New Zealand. Mr Dargaville defended the Minister of Laws for nis action in exceeding the vote, and declared that the members for Auckland East and Egmont had furnished precedents when in power with much less reason. Mr G. F. Richardson ridiculed the idea of paying people to settle on good lands. Sir G. Grey said that fche terms on which the people were allowed to occupy those village settlements were such as to injure their character and destroy their prospects for life. He denied that those lands were given to the unemployed. One hon. member had tdld them that two maiden ladies were amongst the families put on land. He was strongly in favour of freehold tenure of land. Sir R. Stout twitted Sir George Grey with speaking one way one day, and another way next day, and it was that . which had lost him his influence, and which made the honu member stand alone in the House. He asserted that since the present Government had taken office Sir George Grey had cared acnthing for Liberal principles or Liberal ideas. Mr Fergus said it was unworthy of the Premier's position to levy such reproaches as he had done at t&e member for Auckland City East, who was immeasurably the Premier's superior. He referred to the , action of the Premier in joining Sir J. Vogel, and said by so doing he had united the most Conservative section of the House with the most Radical section. He had lost the confidence of the country by his action in this respect ; he had also lost the support of Mb friends in his own district. Mr Downie Stewart said they were experimenting with the lands of the colony in a manner that would prove disastrous to it. The only thing that would save the colony was population, but the present land laws would never attract people to the country. He knew that capital was being taken from the colony in consequence of the uncertainty of our land tenure, and the country would never progress under such a system. Sir J. Vogel combated Mr Stewarts statement that capital was being driven from the country because of the land tenure. It was well known, that he (Sir J. Vogel) was not in favour of perpetual leases, but he held that if the Government were able to keep their land out of the market at the present time they were i wise in more than one respect. If the Government wei'e to content themselves with selling as much land as was actually required for the purposes of settlement, it seemed to him the best policy to meet the necessities of the case. Mr Pyke was annoyed to hear Sir J. Vogel express the sentiment that the Government should hold the land when the people wex'e anxious to obtain i,t. That was a request beneath the dignity of the House, and beneath the position which the Treasurer held in the House. He ventured to say that before many years were over every perpetual leaseholder, and

deferred payment holder, would be a freeholder. Mr Peacock desired Borne information as to the expenditure of the LlOO,OOO of the North Island loan. It was stated that part of this money had been applied to the Tongariro National Park, and it was necessary that some information should be afforded on it. Mr Ballance said they had acquired for the North Island Railway 423,542 acres of land. The cost of the Wainmrino block was L' 15,000, and L 70,000 had been spent on the lino this year. Mr Moss said the establishment of special settlements was hailed with great delight in Auckland, and. that the scheme had been the means of relieving a large number of the unemployed in that city. There were large numbers amongst the unemployed who were only too eager and anxious to get work if they could obtain it. Mr Bryce opposed the village settlement policy, and said he was prepared to argue it at any time with anybody. He said a gentleman with LGO,OOO had come to the colony and left again because he could not get any land. After further discussion a new clause was moved by the Treasurer to the effect that section 70 of the Public Revenues Act of 187S should not apply to unauthorised expenditure until the end of the first session of next Parliament This was agreed to The bill was then reported and iixed for to-morrow. The Hou&c rose at ten minuted past one a.m.