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THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE. (BY TELEGRAPH - PARLIAMENTARY RE PORTER. ) Wellington, May 26.

Sir Julius Yokels <i»i>eii*rctf-TTiiE'To-confidcace debate commenced this afternoon on the motion for tiho se^rul' reading of the Customs Tarili" Dill. Sir J. Vcg^l moved the second rt\ulin,g, and, in Odoing so, said that the bill provided that the duty on uiidevpto'of spirits mid •show - cards, and calendars should not come into force for six .'months. The •duty on leather was to be reduced -from 10 per cent, to "/ S pe v cu»nt., and a le1 duction was also made in the duties on calf skin, kid, and India kip. The present bill • must be read in connection with the existing tariff, which io did wov supersede. At present the duties colio'.'ied iixn^j-nme of the numerous snwli hvnde.l \ J^^unii~e^ were not as large in .unounfc as tlto salaries paid to the Customs oliieer who attended at the store. A clause had been introduced to com| el owikmi ot rhc;C bonded btoics to pay at lea 4 suflicient for the services of iho oiJierr. Another clause permitted drawback to be given for bottled beer brewed m the colom. At, leyvuded the tariif j^eneially, io would fall lighter on the general body of uoiiMimeiM than past tariils., and would enable people to prosecute indusi.ues to which they had been educated. The tau(l had been remodelled with the twofold object of as~.i-.ting the re\eiuie ami fc-teiinu; local industries. It would decrease the importation, and inertM^e the duties on importations (hat remained. The principle opposition to the new tauiV came Horn the importeift, w ho^e ob]eet. wib to throw tho burden of the taiifl' on the labourIng classes by increa-iug tho duties on tea- and sugar. He pieleired that persons should have opportunity of puichasing lather than that they should be driven out of the country. As lion, members would be anxious to heir the remarks of the member for Eumonl, he \%ould nut. detain the House, lie moved tho tecond reading of the Customs 1 )utie^ Bill.

Major Atkinson's Speech. Major Atkinson, who was received with Opposition cheers, nxned, '"That in the opinion of this Hou^c the tariii and other financial proposals of the Go\ eminent arc unsatisfactory.' 11 ivy weie unsatisfactory because it vat ewdent irom the Financial Statement that the Colonial Tieasiuer had not gra-ped the financial por-iuon 01 the colony, nor had he taken one single step tow aids economy dining ihe thico ye: 1 id the Government had l>e<>n in nlike. The eflect of their policy had been to distuib uade and eommeice without pro\ iding a remedy that would la.sl any tinio. lie knew the position of the countiy, and the difficulty the people had ot meeting 1 their engagement-, ami he could not appioach this question of additional bin dens with the light and checi\\ manuci' ot (he Colonial Treasurer. He md not piopo-vj to follow the statement Unough, but instead only to show w hat had been the outcome of the last year, and y huL our position w a--. He ventuied to say that theie nob a membei in the llovw who understood at on<"e what the tlatement meant. The Colonial Tiea-urer understood the art of hiding his meaning, and lie did not \\ ish the House to mule 1 stand as hat. the position was. He had hidden his me ming i expect ing the local sub-idies. He did not intend to pay LI 10,000 this, year, bul ouh the L3.>,000 unexpended last yeai. The speaker proceeded to refer to the Ti casino's claim that he had saved LOS, OOO on the expenditure from consolidated revenue. There had not been one iai tiling sa\ed in the tiue sense of the teim. The amount he claimed to have saved was made up by L 65,000 unexpended balance of railway Aote ; L2G,000 from subsidies that had not been p')id to local bodies, and Lll,Uoo &a\ed from his over-estimate of interest un the Sinking Fund, making a total of L 102,000. Tne Colonial Tieasuiei abated that his deficit was L1 ( J2,000, but to this must be added the LlO4,<JOO which was a windfall ftom the Sinking Fund, and had. neon 1 been estimated. Then there was an undei -estimate of L 24,000 on the land funds, so that the Colonial Treasurer vab wiong in his estimates to the extent of L 325,000. The Treasurer did not treat the House fairly last year, when he refrained from telling them of the L 104,000 that was to fall in from the .Sinking Fund. His Government, three years ago, had left the Land Fund with a credit of LSO,OOO, and now it was overdrawn to the extent of L5-i,OOO. The Government had committed the country to an expenditure of L 65,000 on account of "Village Settlements. They were committed to advances of something like L75 each to about 900 persons. The Colonial Treasurer's estimates had not been affected by the fall in prices, because many lines had increased .in value. He wanted the House to mark how a master hand in finance had managed the finances of the country for the lust three years, and to note the " leaps and bounds" by which the colony had adTranced .while he had been in office. The speaker proceeded to quote from the Financial Statement of 18S4-5, and each one of the numerous glaring inconsistencies •between it and tne document under ,discussion formed a telling point in iSupport of the hon. gentleman's arguments. The revenue last year, he pointed out, was LG5,000 more than an 1884 or 1885, yet there was the iarge deficit of nearly L 296,000. The estimated expenditure for the last year was already L 252,000 J larger than in the previous year, and we had not yet got the supplementary estimates, which would increase the excess to at lea«t L 294,000, omitting the wiKdfall of L 104,000 from the Sinking Fund, which we would nob get again. The House had to px-ovide for a .deficit of L 335,000 in tJbfi .expenditure- for the current year. If things continued as they had been doing for the last thi-ee years, there would be no money to pay subsidies to local bodies, and they would disappear — the Colonial Treasurer's grand scheme of local finance. The graduated property tax would have the affect of driving capital out of the countiy. The temporary reductions of the Civil Service salaries wore wrong, in so far as it was the duty of the Government to «ay plainly what their permanent proposals with respect; to fche Civil Service were. The tariff was unsatisfactory, and would involve a cost to the consumers of double the amount that would accrue to the Treasury from the change. The Government had been running about £he country and neglecting their work, and had given no attention to the question of retrenchment, but had written those fine phrases to cover up the real position of .affairs. He v/as satisfied that the House would refuse to accept these financial proposals, and that it would be the duty of Government, as they had done before, to prepare others. He did not dream for one moment that they would quit the Treasury Benches, but there must bo large retrenchment in public expewdjfcure if they were to restore

the credit of 'the. colony. 'Extensive -alfeevations must he made in the now tarifi. The Colonial Treasurer knew very little about the leal financial state of the country, 'and the Premier was. very little better. The Land Fund must be managed in a different way, aud land should bo open for sale under reasonable restrictions. Tho Village Settlements, which had cost such an enormous, amount of money, would result in failure. He would have been favourable to a vote of L 50,000 for an experiment in these settlements, but opposed the system on the , extensive scale on which it had been earned out. The Government had failed to grapple with the rabbit pest, which wa3 every day assuming- move serious proportions. He hoped the House would refuse to accept the, taiiff proposals. He could hardly think tho Government would expect, a dissolu-, tion. He wished they could got one (The Premier : Hear, hoar) so that they might pot the opinion of tho country. (The Premier : Hear, hear) Bub there was the ditticulty that they would nob get to 'the country 'without great expoiv-e. If the' Government had done their duty, and had pa-^td the Representation Bill last session, thej might have gone to tho ccmnuy dui'lng the recess" < and a new IVulia-, menr\night have met. If the Custom-, Tariff Bill were rejected, as was practically certain, they couU not of eouise go to the country on the present Representation Bill. That of cou.-c would bo out of the question The new Representation Act, would not come into force for six weeks,, The House wa* placod in an awkward position, because they could not deal with tho iinancu of the 'country till half of the j financial year had passed. The (govern- J meut might take ad\ antage of these circumstances and the fact that this is a moiibimd parliament, and refuse to reconsider their rina'icial proposal?. Ho ho])ed, hov.evcr, that the. House would vote without fear as t-> the eliect of dissolution, and that they wmld bo no consenting party to the imp isition of iurthcr burden* on the people that they did not, think weio neces-ary. They should address, themselves to the impoitancc of the po-.it km irrespective of w liether there was a second session or not. The financial policy of the Government had produced umesb and doubt throughout the country, and the stagnation now was worse than prevailed when they took office. Business warf paralysed, and speculation .stopped, and yet the Government wanted to impose a further burden of L323,0U0 on the people — L2o().00() to go into tho treasury, and L7.">,000 for localities. They should not submit to the financial propo-ala until there were reductions made in the public sei\ico. The speaker concluded amidst cheeis.

Speech by Sir R. Stout. Tho rreniior was received with applause. He eon-idered the speech of the Wdui of tho Opposition was the weakest ho had c\lt Ikm id from him. He had thought the lion. gentleman Avould have shown this session that ho wa-. something better than tho leader of a hand of discontented gentlemen \\ ho we ie mere sockets for oiiice. Uo twitted tho Opposition with the manu'inring in selecting as moves of the amendment that man who would be most likely to catch doubtful votes. He charged Major Atkinson with inconsistency respecting tho tariff, and quoted fio:n his speech lecently deli\eicd ab Hawera, in which he said he would suppoita tax ill that ■would help revenue and footer local industry. The lion, gentleman Avas afiaid to" say how the tariff should be im-po.-ed, and what items lie objected to. Sooner than the land be sold he would siy "double the taxation. "' (Cheer-.). It had been the curse of the colony .selling land without conditions for settlement. Major Atkinson's renuuks under this head appeared to be Mr Oimond's prise. Selling land as means for getting us out of oui iinancial difficulties .should only be reported to in direst difficulties. The followers of the member for Egmonfc were all at sixo-? and .sevens on this land question. Coming to Major Atkinson's ciihci^ms of linance, the speaker said that the deficit was correctly stated at L 92,000. The windfall of LIO 1,000 simply meant that it had arisen from an unexpected source, and that the Treasurer had very properly put it to the Consolidated Fund. The hon. member objected to the special settlement^, but that was the only one remedy for dealing Avith the unemployed difficulty in large centres. It was cheaper to get people attached to the soil and to provide them Aiith homes than leave them a chat go on the State. Owing to the cash sales for land, the land for settlement was limited in area, and it would be better that the colony should tax itself for years to come than alloAV any more such sales of land suitable for settlement to take place. In 18S4, the first year of office of the Ministry, the Property Tax Avas reduced by onehalf, and no additional taxation was proposed. In 1885 the Government srav that if the finances of the colony were to be put on a sound basis taxation Avould have to be increased, but additional taxation Avas opposed by a large section of the House, and their proposals Avere lost. As a result of that action, the colony had suffered to a far greater extent than it could have done if this increased taxation had been alknved, and when the history of New Zealand came to be calmly considered it Avouid not reflect to the credit of the free trade section of the present Parliament. He asserted that taking into account the population of the colony and the taxation per head, then allowing for the additional taxation noAv proposed, the taxation did not exceed that of some years ago. The duties of NeAV South Wales Avere higher in many articles than Avas noAV proposed, and excepting Victoria, there was no colony Avhich Avas in a sounder condition than avo Avere. If the member for Egmont had had any desire for the Avelfare of the people he Avould have taken up the twelve classes in the Estimates, and pointed our Avhere extravagance existed., ,and where retrenchment could be effected. He (Sir P*. Stout) Avas understood to gaysthat Avhen reductions came to be proposed.all tho&e Avhose districts were likely to be affected would say that such retrenchment was (Undesirable. It seemed to him that Major Atkinson was simply attempting to foist on the country the resolutions of various Chambers of Commerce, but he ventured to affirm that if an appeal Avere made to the country, and those proposals Avere properly explained, the country Avould reject them Avith scorn. On resuming at 7.30, the galleries Avere crowded in all parts, notwithstanding that the Aveather Avas exceedingly disagreeable. j Sir Robert Stout, resuming his speech, denied that any liabilities had been held over. He quoted statistics to slioav that since the Stout-Vogel Ministry took offieo there had been a decrease of liabilities. He ridiculed the action of the leader of the Opposition in reading a letter written by Sir Julius Vogel when Agent-General as to the action of the Hall Government, and pointed out that tho budget proposals Avere proposals of the Avhole Cabinet, and not of one member of it. Such criticism Avas unique, and Avas unheard of in any parliament in the Avorld. Because Chambers of Commerce were up in arms against the tariff Major Atkinson Avas endeavouring to get their support in view of a general election. Some of the Chambers Avere anxious to have '

duties put on tea and sugar, hut members of those bodies who clamoured for those duties wore the very men who had rushed to the bonds immediately "bofore the tariff proposals of the Govcr-nnaent were declared and cleared those very articles. For the three weeks pveoeding the tariff the whole quantity <of tea cleared in the colony was >io loss than 957,4071b5, and 5,8()l,8881bs of sugar, while the tea duty for that period was LI 6,956, and tho duty for sugar was L 12,212. For no three weeks in LBSS or 188G did the duty on sugar or tea exceed L 3,000. The member for Egmont wished to assist those merchants who had burned their fingers by excessive clearances, and in return asked for their support. Moreover, in ISSj a .largo majority of the House would not allow a moderate increase in the duty for tea. As to a graduated property tax,, he (Sir R. Stout) contended that the hcheme was practically sound. In England there was a graduated income tax, and, he submitted, there was no distinction between a graduated property tax and a graduated income tax. Some of tho opponents of the graduated property tax weie afraid ot large land owners, because to some extent they controlled public newspapers and banks. To his mind, the existence of largo companies hud injured this colony. (Cheer*). Another plunk in the Opposition platform was that Civil servants' salaries were not to be reduced. He feared that when that subject was discussed in caucus thero was not unanimity. All through the countiy hon. members had pledged themsohes to their constituents to reduce the salaries of Civil servants. These veiy men were now going to swallow their mouli and say with tho Opposition loader that this proposal of the Government wub un.s.itibtuctory. Personally, he regretted that the exigencies of the j public service rendered retrenchment in the Civil Service necessary. The proposed i eductions Mere not equal to the reductions made by private firms. lie knew that on the eve of the election it might be immensely popular to do tomething for the Civil servants. Possibly t'ley might be used as an engine for one political parly or another, but he thought Ihe proposal of the Government on this heading were just and prudent, and such a-, the*" House would support. The only policy tho member for Egmont had propounded was " a kill rabbi U and sell land policy." (Laughter.) These were the only two positive items of policy on which the Opposition appeared to be prcpaicd to go to tine country. The object of the | motion was to declare that the House had not confidence in the Government, and as such he accepted it. He claimed that this Government had passed tome \aluable measures during their term of oiliee, and said that if time had permitted ho could ha\c shown that they had done many act.s which the continuous Ministry -were unable to deal with. He cited the "Frisco mail service, the cable question, and dealings with charitable aid. As instances in point, it was a fact that the Opposition had determined to reduce the education vote and to largely reduce the capitation allow ance to Volunteers. _It was Vvhispeied that these were tho leading planks in the Opposition platform. If this Pai liainent, being moiibund,wcre unable to deal with taxational dissolution was necessary. Without discussing the desirability of dissolution, he said that if one were to be brought about the expense connected with a second session would rest on the shouldeis of the Oppositionists, and not on the Government. The Piemiei next defended his conduct as head of tho ( government, and said he had never tried to drive his followers, as was the case of the leader of the last Ministry. If he had been unable to lead this House, it was because the coalition who put the Government into office had not been loyal and true. If the policy of this Government were unsound, let them be told so, but he warned the House that the country would have an opportunity of reviewing such a decision. He might be standing there for tho last time as Premier. (Mr Dargaville : "No fear.") The Opposition might carry the amendment, but he warned them that if they had a majority they must not imagine for one moment that they had no difficulties to encounter, and he also warned them that, as had happened in Israel, a Rehoboam might follow Solomon. (Laughter.) He objected to the mild taxation now proposed, but would lind that such taxation as had been imposed in tho past would be repeated in future. Whatever happened, if he retired from office and was in Opposition he believed there would bo with him some members who had loyally supported him, and he would sooner stand surrounded by a dozen, or even half-a-dozen, loyal men, than he would stoop to men of different political opinions and try to reconcile them, as had been done in ISBS, when Major Atkinson moved his no-confidence resolution. He had only further to say that he was content to abide by the decision of the country, by the vote of those who were not influenced by desire for office, and were not actuated by political feeling of any sort, and he believed that when the calm and solemn verdict was given in the future it would be admitted that the present Ministry had done their duty well to the House and to the country, and that no Ministry who had ever occupied those benches could have done better — nay, more, he would say could have done so well. (Cheers.)

Other Speakers. Mr Taylor (Sydenham) caught the Speaker's eye, and followed with the evident intention of disconcerting the Opposition by disturbing the current of tho debate. He characterised the Chambers of Commerceas Trade Protection Societies, and proceeded to ask Major Atkinson if it was true that he proposed to form a new Cabinet as follows :— Hobbs, Minister of Morality, Finance and Native Affairs ; W. F. Buckland, Attorney-General; Sutter, Colonial Treasurer; Atkinson, Coionial Secretary with seat in the Council ; Rolleston, Minister of Justice with seat in the Council ; Moat, Minister of Mines and Marine ; J. C. Buckland, Minister of Public Works. Mr Fisher (Wellington South) followed. He took the opportunity of explaining that his opposition was not on personal grounds, as had been asserted, but on public grounds. He made a strong point of the large deficiency of L 298,000, which was twice as much as that of the hon. gentlemen who were described by the Colonial Treasurer as " babies in finance." Eef erring to the damaged credit of the colony in the EnglisTi money market, he denied that the writings of Mr Froude were accepted as an { authority in financial circles. He quoted from the " British Australasian " an article in. which the New Zealand Government were roughly handled as far as finance was concerned, and also quoted from a speech by Mr Brodie Hoare, who was in a position to speak with authority. It was the facts on which these articles and speeches were based, and not the writings of an author like Froude, which damaged the credit of the colony. He pointed out the case with which loans for some colonies were floated, while New Zealand and Queensland loans were only got off at lower prices and with difficulty. The depression in New South Wales was nothing compared to New Zealand. It was a pity that the reduction iin members had not been insisted on, for

LB,OOO a year could thus have been saved. There were three Ministers on the benches who cost the country L 3,000 each every year. He was confident that the defence vote could be largely decreased, though the task would be an unthankful one. Native and education votes could also be largely reduced. The State schools should not be turned into State mu-series, and the attempt to educate children under seven years of age should be discontinued. He believed it was possible to save in every department of the Estimates. The tendency of the Government had been to raise up legislation of a theoretical nature, to raise class against class, labour against capital, and the result must be to produce ruination. He had much pleasure in supporting the amendment. Mr Joyce (Awarua) said that Mr Fisher had evidently laid himself out as an alternative Treasurer should Major Atkinson decline that portfolio in event _of Ihe amendment being carried. Nothing had tended to drag tho colony in the mire more than public men who had written and spoken adversely of it with a defeiie to oust Ministers from office. He regretted that the Treasurer had never seen his way to impose an income tax on all who earned over LlOO a year. To cure depression it was necessary that all work that could be done in the colony should be done, even if a prohibitive tariff had to bo imposed. Not a ton of coal should be allowed to come into the colony without being heavily taxed, and if all possible work were undertaken in the colony capital would soon come flying in.

Proposal for Adjournment. On resuming at 10.30, there was a bare quorum of members present, and Mr Tiunbull moved the adjournment of the debate. Tie explained that lie did not wish to lose his opportunity of speaking. He was not j then prepared to do &o. Major Atkinson said he was not prepared to oiler any objection, as he considered the request reasonable under the ciicumstances. It was strange that the Premier should have insisted on commencing the debate in the afternoon, and then was not prepared to go to division on it. Personally, he was prepared to go to a division without another woid. Sir R. Stout : Several members want to speak to-morrow. Major Atkinson said it should be clearly undei stood that the adjournment did not come from their side of the House, though he agreed to it as reasonable under tao circumstances. On the question being put that the House do now adjourn, Mr Barron called for a division, which lesulted thus : Ayes, 25 ; Noes, 29. The motion for adjournment was thus losi. The Government seemed staggered at tMs leverse, and none of their supporters were apparently prepared to take up the running. There was every indication of a vote being taken on Major Atkinson's amendment, when Mr Moss (Fame 1 !) rose and said he should have been sorry to see the debate come to an unsatisfactory end. He was not in the confidence of either side of the House, and it seemed to him that as an outsider lie had some right to have some light thrown on the reasons actuating tho.se who clamoured fora change of Government. He did not consider the depression temporary. The export of debentures was stopping, and the colony was consequently reverting to its normal condition. He was satisfied that no Government could leducc the expenditure to meet the present circumstances, and so long as the whole machinery for conducting business was centred in Wellington, so long wo aid all attempts at retrenchment fail. Heopposed the reduction of honorarium which meant touching the liberties of the people. He looked upon the honorarium as a fixed sum. He had hitherto voted against any increase of it, and should consistently oppose any decrease. He favoured the ough but rational protection of native indrstiics, and was extremely ghvl that the present Government had made this a plank in their policy. He failed to see any prospect of the Opposition taking up the policy of protection, and therefore rather than risk a policy of protection being once more shelved he would support the Government on the present occasion. He, however, reserved to himself the right to vote on any items in the Customs Tariff of which he disapproved. Mr J. B. Whyto (Waikato) moved the adjournment of the House, which was negatived on the voices. Mr Beetham then moved the adjournment of the debate, and this was agreed to, the House rising at 11.25.

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Te Aroha News, Volume IV, Issue 205, 28 May 1887, Page 4 (Supplement)

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4,495

THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE. (BY TELEGRAPH -PARLIAMENTARY RE PORTER.) Wellington, May 26. Te Aroha News, Volume IV, Issue 205, 28 May 1887, Page 4 (Supplement)

THE NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE. (BY TELEGRAPH -PARLIAMENTARY RE PORTER.) Wellington, May 26. Te Aroha News, Volume IV, Issue 205, 28 May 1887, Page 4 (Supplement)

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