THE TARIFF DEBATE.

Te Aroha News, Volume III, Issue 111, 18 July 1885, Page 3

THE TARIFF DEBATE.

, Wellington, July 8. On the House resuming at 7.30, Sir Julius Voqel made a long statement with respect to the ba&is on which the Government proposed to amend the Customs Tariff Bill, and appealed -*to hon, members to discard from their minds all they heard outside the House, both as to the intention of the Government and as to the effect, of the tariff, because there was, no doubt that the changes proposed were less oppressive than any other tariff charges submitted to the House. Some of the ohanges proposed to be made were based upon the large nutober of representations received on the subject of the tariff since the resolutions were passed after the delivery of the Financial Statement. Generally speaking, he might say the changes would have tho effect of increasing the duties in what aright be called luxuries in opposition to -what might be termed the necessaries of life. They had endeavoured not to deal with the subject in a wholesale way, but to give every representation made careful consideration. The representations made had been very extensive in their nature. They had come properly from persons who were affected by the proposed changes. They had also come from persons who were disappointed and did not consider the changes desirable, and also from persons who were experts, and had kindly given the Government assistance which they could lave hardly asked before bringing down the proposals without running the risk of prematurely disclosing their proposals. In regard to the coal duty, in consequence of representations that had been made, which were uniform and unanimous in their character, the Government had reluctantly felt compelled to withdraw that proposal. He read a telegram from the manager of the Waikato Coal Company, stating that in the absence of the proposed duty it was likely that they would have to close the mine, as it would be impossible to compete with the imported coal. He went through the proposed attentions, and explaiced that whereas there had been five classes of wearing apparel and drapery under the resolutions brought down after the Financial Statement, it was proposed, that there might be no confusion in classification, todividethoBeiiitotwolines-namely,onefree and the other 16£ per cent He explained that the alteration would mean a total loss to the revenue from drapery of £20,000 or £21,000, and this amount would be compensated for by the additional 1£ per cent, which would be added to other urticles of drapery ; so that the changes in drapery might be said to about balance themselves. From a i evenue point of view there would be a loss of £8,01)0 or £10,000 on the remission of proposed coal duty. He denied that 15 per cent, duty on boots and shoes would be crushing, as had been stated. From that he estimated an additional return of £8.000, and said that the duty on the finer class of these goods would not fall on the poorer classes. It was proposed to make agricultural improvements and fittings, explosives, machinery for rope-making, goldsaving, and drain-pipe making exempt from duty. As to the duty on jam pulp, the Government would for the year reduce the duty from 2d to Id per lb, although he could hardly say that such a decision was to be justified by any reasonable argument. (Hear.) It would be better they should, when going into Committee, deal separately with each item, and before concluding, he wished to appeal to hon. v. embers as strongly as be could do not to refuse to grant the aid to revenue which they asked through the means of the Customs tariff. To the free list would also be added articles of moleskins and corduroy, which had been omitted from the list by mistake. He denied that public opinion was greatly against the tariff, but of course those whose interests were affected raised a cry, while those whoa© interests were not affected made no demonstration one way or the other. So far as the Government were concerned, and members could take the state ment for what it was worth, he affirmed that they had been given to understand that the proposals of the Government had met with the support of a large majority^ of persons throughout the colony. He denied that the question of free trade and protection was now raised, and affirmed that the tariff for years had been a protective one, and that its tenor had been to stimulate local industries. He moved that the Speaker now leave the chair for the purpose of going into Committee of Ways and Means to con sider the resolutions in the absence of the Chairman of Committees, Major Steward acting in his place. Mr Barron asked, before Major Steward put the resolution, that he should make it perfectly clear whether in the event of any or all the items in the schedule being negatived, the House would simply fall back on the duties which were in force before the Financial Statement was made. The Premier suggested that the hon. gentleman should move specific duties when the items came up seriatim if he had any objection to them. Mr Barron : My course is perfectly clear. I intend to negative all the pro posals for an increase of Customs duty. My object in asking the question is that the Chairman shall make it clear whether, if we negative any particular item, we fall back on the old tariff in vogue before Parliament met. Mr Stout : If 'the resolutions were negatived, the Committee would fall back on the resolutions passed on the 19th ult. Major Atkinson urged that if the Committee decided 'there should be no increase, the tariff that existed before Parliament met would again come into force. Mr Stout said it was quite apparent the position the member for Egmont intended taking up. He desired to throw out the tariff completely, in which case he thought the Government would resign. While paying that if the present resolutions were thrown out, the Committee would simply fall back on the resolutions of June 19th, he admitted that these were subsequently rescinded. Mr Montgomery said that he for one did not wish to oppose every item on which an increase was sought. The Government had made a number of concessions, and might yet agree to more. Instead of asking the Committee to either negative the whole schedule, or affirm the whole schedule, he proposed that every item be put separately. He pointed out to the Committee that the Government had been anxious to make con cessions, and they .would accept the opinion of the Committee with respect to other concessions j but to meet the Go vernment by an adverse vote upon the whole of the schedule would not carry out the wishes of those members who desired to see the Customs Tariff revised, and yet would not feel justified in supporting a dead hostile vote. 'The Colonial Treasurer appealed to Major Steward not to allow members to burke inquiry by declining to give a full opportunity of considering each item seriatim. He intended moving each item separately. The item, Bpirits, 14a 6d a f gallon, was first put,' and a division was called for. The increase was agreed to by 65 to 28.— Mr

Seddon moved the excision of the extra sixpence a gallon sought to be put on Australian wines. —Sir Julius Vogel suggested the withdrawal of the motion. New Zealand should not give the Australian colonies this advantage without asking from them some corresponding advantages, —Mr Hurst thought this would set an example to New South Wales, inasmuch as that the quantity of Australian wine consumed in New Zealand was a mere bagatelle. If we tried Australia, New South Wales would probably tax our oats.— Mr Seddon asked leave to withdraw his proposition. — Mi* Barron, however, called for a division. The item and increase was affirmed, the voting being : Ayes, 43 ; noes, 26. As soon as the item tea was announced, half a-dozen members rose to their feet. Mr Turnbull was the first to catch Major Steward's eye. He proposed that the duty on tea of the declared value of sixpence be Id in the lb, and of the declared value of a shilling and over, twopence. — Major Steward : The question will have to be put in this form, " That the figure 6d be retained." If that figure be not retained, it can be proposed that it be sd; failing that, that ifc be 4d.— Mr Moaa urged on the Committee the undesirability of allowing any increase on the tea duty, and moved that it remain at 4d. The increase would only realise £37 000 a year, and the increased burden would fall largely on those who could ill afford it. — An hon. member : It can't be carried. —Mr Moss : I doubt whether anything could not be carried in the confused state in which the House is. As the Customs revenue of New Zealand is immeasurably the largest of any country in the {world, I shall vote against every increase, however speciously, it is put, on the broad grounds that wo ought not to add one farthing to the burden already existing through the Customs — Mr Joyce said doubtless the duty on tea was the most unpopular of the many duties proposed to be increased, but people must take it as part of the proposals of the Government, and remember that the Government had tided the colony over the greatest crisis that had perhaps ever occurred.— Sir George Grey said he intended to oppose the tea increase to the utmost of his ability. (Hear, hear.) It meant an increased taxation of one shilling and sixpence on every man, woman, and child in New Zealand. Such a proposal, without any attempt at retrenchment, was unjust and impertinent. He appealed to hon. members to oppose all Customs increases until a promise was made that the whole expenditure of the country should be reduced. — Mr O'Connor defended the tea duty, and said the people would not object to the small increase sought. An ad valorem tariff would be an incentive to introduce a worthless article. — Mr Seddon said that in 1877 the Premier was an advocate of a free breakfast table. If the Govern ment were ordered to take back the estimates and reduce them by £50,000, the necessity for increased Customs duties would bo done away with. To this end they should have reduced the Civil Service salaries under £150 by 5 per cent., over that, by 10 per cent. -Sir George Grey said that if the property burden were thrown on land, the Customs tariff might almost be done away with. — Mr Stout pointed out that j the proposals of the Government only meant raising the same amount as was ret»rned at j last year. But few people, he believed, would object to the proposed increase — j The Colonial Treasurer said that, in deference to the wishes of so many members, the Government would agree to a compromise of 5d per lb. That, he hoped, would prove acceptable —(Cries of " Yes," and "No ") The question that the duty on tea be reduced by 2d per lb was carried by 61 to 24. The announcement was received with great glee by the anti tariff members— this being the first confirmation of the principle laid down by them that all increases in Customs" should be discountenanced. Mr O'Connor here moved that progress be reported, to give the Government a chance of reconsidering the estimates, and " taking it out of the Civil Service." On an appeal from Mr Stout, he withdrew his motion, and consideration of the tariff was proceeded with. Duty on cornflour, $d per lb, was negatived on the voices, the Government not calling for a division. A similar fate befel the duty of 3d per lb on hams and bacon. Bananas : Decrease of duty from 2d to Id negatived. Boots and shoes : Mr Barron pointed out that the duty on men's No. 7 and upwards was an increase of 60 per cent , and children's of 50 per cent. The question that the duty remain as printed was lost by 47 to 38. Butter and cheese— duty 2d per lb : Lost on the voices. Candles ; Tallow, Id ; stearine, 2d ; paraffin or wax, 2£d ; not enumerated, 2£d. Mr Stout called for a division. The duty was struck out by 48 to 36 Item carpet bags having been struck out on the voices, Mr Seddon said he took this as an indication that members were ready to go home. It appeared to him that some members on the Opposition side of the House wanted to vote against the Government although they held protection views, while others were voting against the tariff simply because they held free trade principles. He moved to report progress, with leave to sit again. Sir Geo. Grey said, like others, he had voted against any increase in taxation till some reduction was made in the expenditure. Mr Brown thought that Sir Geo. Grey was an honourable exception to the majority of members, he having always voted on this matter according to his convictions Members opposed to an increase in tariff had been made use of by the Opposition and he declined to regard the vote already given as a party one. — Mr Seddon ex plained that in moving to report progress he merely wished to give the Government an opportunity of reconsidering the estimates with a view to seeing whether they could reduce the expenditure. — Sir George Grey : Does the hon. member speak in accordance with the views of the Government ? (Great laughter )- Mr Srddon replied that he was entirely uninspired, nor had he spoken in accordance with the views of the Government. He merely spoke as a party man. In the House he had always voted fair, and never struck below the belt.— Mr Mackenzie said it was a question of political honesty. The Premier had stated himself to be neither a Freetrader nor a Protectionist, and now they found him to-night supporting Protection He slated Mr Seddon for blind allegiance to the Government. He ,( M r Mackenzie) did not care a brass farthing whether the Government went out or stayed in, and he thought if they went out it was their own fault. He hoped that members of the House would take an independent stand.— Mr Stout said that Mr Mackenzie lost sight of the fact that if the Government were turned out they would be succeeded by a more Protective Government. The Government thought Tree Traders bad not adopted a fair position. The main thing for them to do was to move that there should be no Protective duties. The Governmnent were asking these duties for revenue purposes. He asked Mr Seddon to withdraw his motion. Mr Turnbull accused Sir George Grey and Major Atkinson of hypocrisy, and in saying "hear hear" to the proposal to reduce expenditure he liked

honesty but not hypocrisy. —He called on the Premier to take up a firm position, and say Who are for. and who against us?— Mr Mackenzie said if certain members were addicted to hypocrisy, it appeared to him after the remark of the last speaker, that some of the members were addicted to. cant. —Mr Turnbull was proceeding to accuse Mr Mackenzie of cant, when the Chairman interposed.. — Mr B,ARROn claimedthat the Free Traders outnumbered the protectionists in the country. Whatever the fate of the Government would be, he was glad the House had refused to increase the taxation. The Civil Service was too expensive, and the able men now on the j Benches could do much to reduce expenditure —Mr Stout said that in any Government it was necessary to receive what was intended as a lesson, but not to receive insults, and he considered some of Mr Barrons remarks were insults. — Mr Hislop said that the recent remarks showed that many hon. members had either been talking insincerely or they had lost confidence in the Ministry. The way parties had been played with reflected no credit on either. — Sir George Grey stated his opinion that the reduction of expenditure was possible, and that other methods of taxation might be devised. With reference to Mr Turnbulls remarks about hypocrisy, he said he had known the hon. gentleman for years, and had always found him to be a man of sweet temper, and his remarks to night pleased him more, as it showed that the hon. gentleman was a man and not an angel. — Mr Seddon said that reporting progress was now absolutely necessary.— Mr Levestam urged thd Government to give Free Traders a chance of going back to their constituents. The principal apostle of Free Trade came from Otago, though in that district all the demands for local protection came.— Sir Julius Vooel supported Mr Seddon's motion, though the Government had no wish to report progress unless it was the wish of a majority. — Mr Hursthouse said he would regret if the action of the Committee caused the Government to resign or go to the country. He opposed the motion for reporting progress. The motion to report progress was carried on the voices, and the House rose at 11.45. Wellington, July 9.

Railway Reform. In the House, this afternoon, Mr Sam del asked a question in effect whether Mr Vaile's proposals had been considered by the Government. Mr Kichardson, in reply, said : Mr Vaile's proposals have been brought under the notice of several Ministers, both in previous Governments, as also in the present, and Mr Vaile has had a very long interview with me, extending over some hours. Mr Vaile's proposals have been varied so much from time to time that it is impossible to say whether they all have been considered. At the interview I had with Mr Vaile, I pointed out to him that he admitted he did not understand the system of the working of the present tariff, which is ba3ed on those existing on railways in other parts of the world. I also pointed out to him that he raised a large question of policy by laying it down as a basis that it is most mischievous to attempt to make the railways pay interest. I went carefully over his diagrams and his proposals, as far as he chose to submit them to me, and the result was that I informed him he had not convinced me of the practicability of his proposals, and that I could not see my way te recommend his scheme to be tried, as according to his own showing a large lot-s must immediately result to the revenue, although he states that in future there will be an equally large increase. The statements made that the department has refused to consider the proposals are there fore incorrect.

Evidence Amendment Bill. There was an interesting discussion over Mr Downie Stewarts Evidence Further Amendment Bill, in moving the second reading of which he stated that it sought to lessen expenses to suitors, and to prevent the bolstering up by the police of evidence against prisoners. The Premier, Mr Connolly, and others said that before confessions could be made in evidence in the manner that the bill suggested, all police officers would have to be made justices of the peace. This remark was occasioned by the provision that no confession or statement by a prisoner shall be admissible as proof of guilt unless such confession is made before a J.P. The several speakers approved of the reform which the measure proposed, and the second reading passed without dissent.

Notices of Questions Notices of questions for to-morrow were given as follows :— That copies of all correspondence relating to the construction of the proposed graving dock at Port Chalmers which had passed between the Government and Otago Harbour Board be laid on the table (Mr Ross) ; if Government will give the New Zealand Insurance Company of Auckland the same privileges aa those given to the Accident Assurance Association of New Zealand, Dunedin, with reference to the issue of accident tickets at railway stations (Mr Peacock).

Answers to Questions. Ministers, in answer to questions, stated that Government had made no arrangements for continuation of San Francisco mail service, but as scon as the financial debate was disposed of, a resolution would be brought down asking the authority of the House to enter into a fresh contract. In future, vessels would not be quarantind on arrival from Australia, the ports there being considered free from infectious disease. It was desirable to grant long-service medals to those members of the police force whose long service and good conduct entitled them to some such recognition, and steps would be taken in that direction.

Survey of tbe Coast Mr Maoandrew, in moving that a respectful address be transmitted to the Governor, to the effect that he may be pleased to call the attention of the Imperial Government to the necessity for a fresh survey of the coast of New Zealand, and on a more detailed scale than appears on the chart at present, and that His Excellency be requested to inform the Imperial Government that the colony will, if necessary, be prepared to place at the disposal of the Admiralty the services of the Hinemoa and Stella, or other suitable vessels, said the motion was occasioned by the recent striking of the lonic on her recognised course from Napier to Wellington. If anything had happened to the vessel, the loss would have been something enormous. He was aware that at other parts of the coast vessels had struck where no danger was indicated on the chart. It was now 40 years since a proper survey had been made of 'the coast, and he thought it of the utmost importance that the Government should endeavour to get an accurate marine survey now made. MrLARNAOH said the Government were in possession of the opinions of two of their principal officers, Captains Johnson and Fairchild, which was to the effect that a re-survey of the coast was not necessary. He had a memo, from those officers, and for the satisfaction of the House would read) what they had to say on the subject. They

were not aware that, any . shoal «» existed where the lonic struck, but in order/ to satisfy the Government on the point, the Stella was to make a survey of the place. The Government would be very glad to consider the question of employing the Stella or Hinemoa in making a re-survey of certain parts of the coast, He suggested that the motion be withdrawn. Mr Maoandeew had no wish to press the question. While not wishing to set his opinion against those of Capt. Johnston and Fairchild, he thought that the former officer in his memo, gave good reasons why a complete survey of the coast should be made. The motion was then withdrawn.

Agent-Generalship Correspondence. Mr Rolleston asked, without notice, ■whether the House may expect the general correspondence with the Agent- General to be laid on the table, and when despatches from the Government will be laid on the table. Mr Stout replied that the correspondence had been in the printers' hands for somd weeks, and as soon as printed would be laid on the table.

Customs Duties. In answer to Mr Scobie Mackenzie, who asked without notice if the House is to understand that it is the intention of the Government to bring down in usual course the Customs Duties Bill immediately the resolutions in Committee of Ways and Means are disposed of, the Premier replied in the affirmative.

Friendly Societies ActftAmendment. In moving the adjournment for a fortnight of the Friendly Societies Act Amendment Bill, Mr O'Connor said he was desirous, before bringing it on, of communicating with the various friendly societies in the colony.

Rating Act Amendment. Mr Turnbull moved the second reading of the Rating Act Amendment Bill. Ho explained that his desire to allow the property of friendly societies to be exempt from rating was in consequence of the great benefit they conferred by relieving distress and taking care of their members, many of which cases would otherwise fall on Government. After a few remarks by the Premier and Captain Russell, the second reading passed, and the committal was fixed for this day fortnight.

Policemen's Franchise. Mr Guinness moved the second reading of his A.C. Act 1867 Amendment Bill. He explained that under the A.C. Act members of the Armed Constabulary force and police force were debarred from exercising their votes. Last session the House affirmed the principle of dxtending franchise to these men. Major Atkinson expressed surprise that the Government gave the measure their support. Personally he did not approve of it. He thought it established a most dangerous precedent, and, so far as he knew, was not permitted in any country. If the proposal were agreed to, Government would be giving great power in affecting elections, and the Government of the day would be placed in the position of being accused of favouritism, if it were necessary for them to shift members of the A.C. in a body about election time. Mr Ballance supported the right to vote being given to the civil police only. The second reading was carried by 46 to 22.

Abolition of Coroners' Juries. In moving the second reading of the Coroners* Juries Abolition Bill, Mr Guinness said the proposal would meet with .considerable favour in country districts, and more especially in outlying districts. The Ministerfor Justicesaid thattoseekto abolish coroners' juries altogether was rather a sweeping change. He had already promised, if time permitted, to introduce this session a bill reducing the number of jurors from 12 to, say, 4 or 6, except in special cases, when perhaps it would be better to have the assistance of 12 jurymen. Under these circumstances, he hoped that the consideration of the bill would be delayed till an opportunity were afforded him of introducing such a measure. Mr Guinness opposed any postponement. He thought coroners' juries were altogether useless, as their inquiries were immaterial, and there was nothing final or conclusive about them. The postponement of the second reading for a fortnight was carried on the voices.

Wellington, July 11. Notices of Questions. Notices of questions were given as follows : — What assistance or encouragement the Government intend to give the rifle clubs? (Mr Holmes.) When the Government intend to complete the new railway station at Dunedin ? (Mr Stuwart.) Jf the Government will exempt the property of benefit societies from taxation under the Property Assessment Act? (Mr Holmes.) If effect has been given to the promise made last year that the Agent General would be directed to obtain a number of copies of Mr Kerry Nicholls book on the King Country for general circulation ? (Mr Joyce ) Whether the Government intend to appoint stenographers in the Supreme Courts and District Courts ? (Mr Stewart. ) Mr Hamlin gave notice to ask whether the Government has any fur 1 her correspondence or reports on the subject of leading lights at the Manukau Heads since the papers presented by Government last session on the subject. The Petitions Committee recommended that the petitions of Wm. Thomson for a bi-weekly mail to Raglan be referred to the Government.

Government Printing. Mr Fisher intimated that he would move on Tuesday that a select committee consisting of nine menbers be appointed to consider the advisableness or otherwise of printing under contract with private offices any part of the Government printing of the colony.

Goldfields Committee. On the Goldfields Committee's reportcoming up for consideration, Mr Bkown said that session after session the Committee referred the majority of petitions to the Government for their favourable consideration, and yet the Government took no action whatever. He asked the Government in future to carry out the recommendations made by the Committee. Mr Pyke, Chairman of the Committee, agreed that some finality was necessary. Not only were some petitions presented session after session, but to Parliament after Parliament, the petitioners thinking that' although their claims had been reported adversely on, they might be favourably considered by new members. The matter then dropped.

Replies to Questions. Most of the questions asked of Ministers to-day were of a local nature. They stated that no increase of salaries had been promised to country postmasters acting as telegraphists, whose offices were kept open from 7 till 8 p.m. The Accident Assurance Association of Dunedin was tho only company that had applied to the .Government for the right to sell Accident Assurance tickets at various railway stations throughout the colony, and the arrange*

meat made with them was similar to that existing with the Victorian Government. It was only of a temporary nature, and could be terminated at short notice. If New Zealand Accident Assurance Company of Auckland, or any similar institution, made application fora like right, the Government would at once consider it their duty to terminate the present agreement, and make up their minds what was the best course to pursue, whether the right should obtain by tender or otherwise.

School Committees' Elections. In moving the second reading of the School Committee Election Bill, Major Steward said that it only contained four clauses, all of which had been confirmed by the House during last Parliament, and that by large majorities. The first clause was that elections should be held in April instead of January, so as to remove them from harvest time. The second clause provided that in event of any committeemen being absent three months without excuse, his scat became vacant ; and the last clause, which was of the most importance, provided for doing away with the system of cumulative Toting. Mr W. A. Stewart said at present a large number of children remained absent from school, and when steps had been taken to prosecute their parents the Act had been found defective and wholly unworkable. In Dunedin a test case had been taken before the 8.M., but the law was in so hopeless and chaotic a state that nothing could be done. The Premier opposed the bill, and denied that the measure before laat Parliament was similartothat now introduced. The previous measure simply sought to amend the mode of election of school committees. In England and Scotland the cumulative vote had worked well, and it was now sought to destroy it in New Zealand, where it had also worked well. The cumulative vote was the only means of giving minorities a just representation in educational affairs. Mr W. F. Buckland objected to any alteration in the present Education Mr O'Callaghan said the only change he wished to see in the Education Act was as to the date of School Committee elections. He was strongly opposed to any attempt to abolish the cumulative vote. Mr Fulton thought that the duty of the House was to amend any lagislation where an improvement was necessary. Mr Samuel agreed that it was possible to make the Education Act more perfect, and deprecated opposition to any attempts at Interference. Major Steward in reply said that the Roman Catholics have offered no objection to the repeal of the cumulative vote, so that argument as to injustice being done to minorities would be disposed of. On division the second reading was ; carried by 31 votes to 4, and the committal | fixed for Wednesday next.

Alienation of Lands Bill. Mr Connolly moved the second reading of the Alienation of Lands Bill, a measure to prevent the entailing of land. Mr Dargaville raised an objection to the retrospective effect of the bill, and pointed ouo that it would be unfair to pass an Act nullifying deeds of settlement made in the past. Mr Garrick opposed the bill on the ground of its being retrospective. In his opinion, the bill was based on no recognised principles affecting law of property. Mr Brown strongly supported the principle of the bill, which was the abolition of entail in land. Mr Stout gave a qualified support to the bill, and suggested an amendment to prevent the measure being retrospective. Mr Downie Stuakt said there was no tendency in the colony to entail estates. Mr Montgomery advocated a simple measure providing that estates should not be entailed. He trusted that the bill would go into committee, and that it would come out a simple clear law representing entail. Mr Hobbs hoped the legal members would allow the bill to pass the second reading, and amend it in committee. Mr Samuel would support the second reading and endeavour to make it workable in committee. Mr Harper supported the bill going to the second reading. Mr Connolly in reply denied that the bill wa3 retrospective. The second reading of the bill was passed on the voices.

Employment of Females Act. Mr Bbadshaw moved the House into committee on the Employment of Females and Others Act Amendment Bill, on Mr Levestam's amendment to the effect that children under fourteen be not employed in factories. Mr Stout pointed out that many children paSßed the 6th standard at 12 years of age, and it was unfair to keep them from work for two years. Mr Leve&tam suggested that Mr Stout should move an amendment to the effect that children under 14 be not employed unless they have paesed the sth standard. The House divided on the question that the definition of limit of age be 12 yeais Ayes, 54 ; noes, 11. At the evening sitting consideration of the Employment of Females and Others Act was resumed. On clause 3, Mr Brad3Haw moved the addition of the following words: — "A young person may be employed in printing offices on Saturdays up to the hour of half-past four o'clock in the afternoon." — Mr Peacock said that he knew a number of young women employed in a printing office, and if the amendment just moved were not inserted, it would be the mean 3 of these young women losing their employment. — — Mr Fergus pointed out that in many of the factories an extra half hour was worked during the week to give the employe's a half holiday on Saturday. In agricultural implement factories, at certain seasons of the ! year, it was absolutely necessary to work overtime, otherwise farmers could not get j their machinery. He movedj|j»at as an amendment the maximum nnm» of hours be 9 instead of 8. The House elided on this amendment, which was lost by 51 to 7. Mr Fulton moved that to the words, "No person shall employ auy young person for more than eight hours in any one day in any factory," be added. — Mr Fergus said he believed that the carrying of the clause would lose all the boys the half holiday on Saturday, and men could not work without boys, and so they would lose half a day's pay. He moved a further amendment, that they work 84 instead of eight hours. The Committee divided on the question that the length of time be eight hovrß : Ayes, 43 ; noes, 19. — Mr Fulton's amendment was carried without division.- Mr Bradsbaw's amendment re printing offices was carried on the voices. Christmas Day and Good Friday were struck out as holidays " for young persons."— Mr W. F. Buckland moved that the words "without loss of wages" be struck out, arguing that it would lead to employers dismissing employes before a holiday and reengaging them afterwards.— JVJi Buckland withdrew his amendment.— Mr Pyke moved an amendment to the effect that young people be paid only for the principal holidays — such as Christmas Day, the bill providing that under these holidays young people be paid for any other day set apart as a public holiday. The

amendment was lost. — On Mr Hatch's motion, to the words "Any other day set apart as a public holiday," the words " proclaimed by the Governor " were added. At this stage the Premier was accused of fathering the measure. He stated that he bad received letters from employers of labour, stating that girls were employed as much as 14 hours a day. He thought that was sufficient justification for the Government preparing the bill. — Mr Fergus moved the addition of a clause that domestic servants have at least one day's holiday in each week. He subsequently withdrew it, saying he had moved the amendment to show the absurdity of the bill. — Mr Holmes next moved an amendment, of which he had previously given notice, of making it optional for employers of labour to give a half -holiday on any day in the week in place of on Saturday. He stated that h\s action was taken at the instance of the Early Closing' Association of Christchurch, and it was supported by a petition recently received, signed by 150 persons. A change of day could only be made when a majority of the employe's were agreeable, and it must be announced in a newspaper published in the locality.— Mr Bradshaw opposed the clause, as io did not come from employe's in factories, but from those employed in other trades and occupations. -Major Steward said that the Saturday half-holiday to factory employ some such arrangement as that proposed, and Messrs Levestam and Samuel supported it on the ground that in Nelson and New Plymouth Wednesday was observed as a half-holiday.~lt was moved that in place of a ''majority of employe's" there be substituted "twothirds," which was accepted by Mr Holmes, and carried on the voices. — Mr Holmes's proposal that a half-holiday might be on 1 any day of the week that two-thirds of the employes desired was then carried, but at Mr Bradshaws suggestion, itwas made to apply to factories only, notification of the change of date to be given in a newspaper or news papers circulated in the borough. This was carried by 29 to 19, and on the question, 1 " that the new subsection as amended be added to the bill," Mr VV. F. Buckland called for a division, but the addition of the subsection was carried by 35 to 19. In clause 7, which provides a penalty for obstructing inspection, " female " was substituted for '* woman." — Mr Stout, in moving that the hours of barmaids be restricted to between 8 a.m. and 6 p.m., said he did not think there would be much difference of opinion as to this clause. (Laughter.) The question had caused considerable discussion in all parts of the colony. There had been actually presented to Parliament petitions by '21,953 persons asking for alterations in the Licensing Act far beyond what he proposed. They asked absolute prohibition of barmaids. Altogether, he pointed out the amendment he proposed allowed the em ployment of barmaids one hour longer than those engaged in printing offices or factories. In many parts of the United States there were no barmaids at all, and he thought that here they co aid be far better employed. (An hon. member: "How?") There were many avenues open for the employment of women. He did not wish to make any charge against women employed in bars, and believed in the majority of cases no complaint could be preferred, but many of them were subject to temptations which they should not be subjected to. He did not wish to deprive those employed in bars of earning their livelihood, but thought if the legislation he proposed were agreed to, they would find other means of living. Mr W. F. Buckland objected to the olause benig received at all. They had been told by the Premier that the bill under consideration applied to factorie?, and the clause was therefore out of place. The petitions were not for limiting: the hours of barmaids, but against their employment altogether. The proposal was putting a temptation in barmaids' road, and into young men's road, while, if they were allowed to keep in the bar till 11 at night, they would go straight to bed. (Great laughter ) It would be almost better that a young woman should be employed in hotels than out parading the streets after dark. It was true that the Premier cast no insinuation on barmaids' characters, but he had stated that they were only employed in the lowest public-houses in America. j Mr Dargaville said that the amendment ought more properly to have been proposed when Major Steward's Licensing Act Amendment came on for consideration. He affirmed that the proposal would throw 1,000 young women out of employment, because it was between the hours of 8 and 11 p.m. that people had leisure time to go into hotels for drink. That was a serious consideration. He suggested that the clause should not come into force for six or twelve months, in order to enable women engaged in bars to seek employment in other directions. They might then be absorbed as domestic servants or shop-girls ; but it would be disastrous to them and a social misfortune to summarily deprive them of the means of earning their living, Mr Stout : "I will accept that suggestion. Six months' hence the clause to operate."' Several hon. members : " Six years," "Fifty years, and laughter. Mr Scobie McKenzie said that under no circumstances whatever could he vote for the clause. If the hours of barmaids were so limited they could not be employed after the bill became law. The clause, to all intents and purposes, meant their entire abolition. He could not be a party to closing an avenue to honest living to any creature in the country. It might be true that the employment of barmaids induced young men to drink, but was it proposed to cure the evil of moral weakness of young men by doing a material evil to young women? That was an illogical position to assume. Mr Stout said the reason he did not propose the abolition of barmaids was that he felt that a means of employment that had continued for many years should not be ruthlessly destroyed. They should be gradually weaned up to the abolition of vromen in bars. Mr Hubsthouse failed to discover whether the Premier had moved in the interests of barmaids or of public morality. (Mr Stout : Both. ) If the Premier brought in a bill to prohibit the employment of barmaids altogother, he would have supported the measure, but it was absurd to transplant them to hotel waitresses. He ventured to say that if the petitions were analysed, the great proportion of signatures would be found to be those of jealous wives and children. Most of the rows in hotels took place where there were male attendants, and that was natural, because the behaviour of reasonable men would be toned down by the presence of women. (Hear.) The attempt was to legislate for those weak-kneed young gentlemen who paid periodical visits to fashionable bars. Mr Pyke questioned the taste of those hon. members who wanted to replace pretty women by coarse men. He said that the majority of these persecuted women in their moral behaviour were better than factory girls. (Cheers.) Of course black sheep could be found among barmaids, but that was the case with every class in the community. As to, the proposal of one hon.

member that barmaids be not allowed to exist, he wanted to know whether it was intended to carry them out to sea and drown them. (Laughter.) The proposal of the Premier was a cruel thing, absolute persecution in fact, and he did not envy the feelings of those poor girls he wished to rob of their bread. Sir George Grey admitted this was a difficult subject to deal with, and had cost him a vast amount of thought. Those young men who ran from bar to bar charmed by pretty faces should be laughed down, but he was of opinion that the proposal brought down by the) Premier was a monstrous injustice to the whole of New Zealand. He conceived that a gross injustice was being done to I a peculiarly helpless portion of the community in attempting to pass a vote of censure on them. He hoped the Houße would not perpetrate what he really believed to be a cruel act in adopting this measure. ■ Mr Peaoook said that the petition from | Auckland against barmaids was signed by adults. He alluded to the report of the Victorian Royal Commission, saying that the documents showed that barmaids were i employed 16 hours a day, to the detriment of their health, without referring to the moral aspect of the question, Mr Joyce said that women in bars were ncfc fitted for domestic service, and it was choice for them between the bar and the j bagnio. He opposed Mr Stout's motion, ana ask d why they should give a monopoly of the demoralisation of the young men of the colony to the wife of the licensee and his daughter. They had been told that the employment of males would diminish drinking. Now they had males employed at Bellamy's, and would anyone deny that there was a quantity of whisky consumed there ? He gave personal testimony to the worth of many of the barmaids. If they wanted to sweep away barmaids, they should sweep the trade away altogether. Mr Batch said he thought that these girls should at least have two years' notice of the coming into force of this Act. He would suggest two years' notice, believing that in the meantime tho young ladies would obtain homes of their own. Mr Samuel, in opposing Mr Stout's clause, said he placed no weight on the petitions, and believed he could get 100,000 signatures to a petition opposed to the common sense of the whole House. Mr W. F. Bucklano said that in Auckland some ladies had come; round to hie place with a petition against barmaids, and on being refused, sat down on the doorstep until the inmates had signed the petition to get rid of them. Mr Fulton advocated the total abolition of barmaids Mr Bevak advocated the employment of a couple of barmaids in Bellamy's on the ground of the elevating nature of their presence. Mr Gore generally opposed the clause. Mr Hobbs said he was satisfied the atmosphere of hotels was not conducive to the welfare of young women. He was not reflecting on the conduct of the young ladies - but on the miserable creatures desj cribed as " mashers," and the old reprobates ! who kept them there. He would support the clause, though it did not go so far as he wished. i Mr Stout, in reply, denied that any innovation was made, inasmuch as the hours of ba7maids' employment were set out in the Licensing Act as between 11 a.m. and 11 p.m. If the clause were passed, he was willing not to bring it into operatior till July Ist next. He hoped the time would, come when all public-houses would be closed at 6, He denied that he had passed any stigma on barmaids, and was pained to hear the member for Dunstan cast a slur on factory girls. On division, Mr Stout's clause was thrown out by 40 to 25. Mr G. F. Richardson moved the addition of a new clause exempting butter or cheese factories from the operation of the Act, which was agreed to. The bill was reported with amendments, which will be considered on Wednesday night.

Adoption of Children. The third roading of the Adoption of Children Act Amendment Bill was passed, and the House rose at 11.50.

Wellington, July 14. Questions for To-morrow. Among the questions of which notice was given for to-morrow, is the following : If the Government have received any petitions or other correspondence from the inhabitants of Fiji, expressing their desire to become more intimately associated with the commerce and Government of New Zealand? If so, has any reply been sent to such request? (Mr Brown.)

i Replies to Questions. In reply to Mr Stewart, the Minister of Works said the Government did not intend going on this year with the completion of the new passenger-station building at Dunedin. Mr bTEwART asked whether the Government intended to appoint stenographers in the Supreme and District Courtß. The Minister for Justice : The Government has considered this matter, and is prepared to ask the House to grant a sufficient sum with which to inaugurate the system of stenography.

Local Bodies' Finance Bill. The adjourned debate on the second reading of the Local Bodies' Finance and Powers Bill was resumed by Major Atkinson, who said it was greatly to be regretted that the Government had seen fit to make this measure a party question, because if there was one subject above all others on which hon, members ought to sink party feelings, it seemed that tnis was that one, The combined wisdom of the House would be required to contrive anything like a satisfactory means of local finance, and if the measure was to be approached simply from a party point of view, he felc certain they would not obtain a measure that would give satisfaction to the country or to this House. The object of the bill, as set forth by the '.treasurer, was to give assured local finance to local bodies for a permanent time, but that had since been abandoned by the Government, who would only ask the House to make provision for a year or two in addition to striking out all the borrowing powers. That being so, he was relieved of the necessity of showing, as be easily could have shown, that the present bill would not have given assured finance to the local bodies. The only principle be could Bee the in bill was that all the roads in the colony were to be made out of the consolidated funds. This was a principle that could not be reasonably sanctioned by this House. He asked was it right to construct roads out of the consolidated funds without aid from local rates. No system of subsidies could be fair and right, because rates were not for the construction of roads, but for their repairs. He advocated a borrowing policy for local bodies, to extend over 10 or 12 years, and thought a million would be sufficient for the purpose. The said money spent in roads was directly as profitable as on railways. He thought that if the country was to be settled, they must proceed simultaneously with roads as they did with railways. If they were to Black off for one, he should have no hesitation in saying better slack off the railways than, stop making necessary

roads for the country. He did not believe that the country would agree to large sums of money being taken out of the ratepayers' pooket to pay tor the construction of roads, but would rightly consider that property owners ought to pay the ohief portion of that burden. He was not going to oppose the second reading, because the most objeotionable features of the bill had been abandoned. The Premier was very glad the leader of the Opposition was willing to consider thia bill apart from a party spirit. The Government wished to make the measure beneficial to the colony. He regretted that when the question ot" tariff waa under consideration the hon. member, for the Bake of temporary victory, had forgotten the lines he had laid down to-day. (Colonel Trimble : "Question.") Mr Stout : "The hon. member who says "Question" is a Free Trader, while his chief is a Protectionist." (MrWAKEHELD : 'Question.') Mr Stout: "I was referring to the hon. member for Taranaki, and not to the hon. member for Selwyn, because I do not think any hon. member in the House knows what the latter's opinions are." (Laughter.) The speaker proceeded to twit the member for Egmont with abandoning his favourita Roads and Bridges Construction Act, and said that under the present measure | more burdens were cast on the land. He did not think that only outlying districts required assistance for roadinaking. As to the Koads and Bridges Construction Act, he said that as far as the distribution in the past had been concerned he felt that it had been so monstrous that no scheme could be passed that would be ! worse. He agreed with the last speaker that roads required to be constructed, and he also agreed with him to some extent that this colony should help local bodies to do so ; but he disagreed with him in saying that this colony should go into the money market of London and borrow money for roads. He thought that money required to be borrowed for roads should be left ty local bodies to raise as was done bd boroughs. The Dunedin Corporation had been enabled to borrow at 5 per cent. , ano why should not some of the wealthy counties bo enabled to get money at as cheap a rate as 5 per cent. ? He asked the House to try the subsidy system for a year or two, to see how it worked. Like the | member for Egmojit, he desired to see the question considered apart from party feeling, und members do what they could to make the bill workable : that was all the Government wanted. Mr Beetham held that roads were of more importance than railways. If the Otago Central and North Island lines were to be constructed without roads being made, the colony would be brought into financial ruin. Mr Richardson (Mataura) said the subsidies were exceedingly lavish, and had circulars been sent to local obdies asking what assistance they required, the amount would not have approached that proposed to be given. Mr Lance believed the local bodiesowere in tavour of the measure, Mr Gore was disappointed with the bill now before the House. Under the Charitable Aid Bill the expenditure in Dunedin would be £4,420, while for the police it would be something like £800. That city would receive £1,500 from the Government, leaving it a loser to the extent of £3,720. Mr Lake regretted that the Government had not scan their way to devise a tern porary measure, leaving over a bill of a comprehensive nature till the ensuing year. Had twenty members of the House put their heads together, they could have elaborated a more workable measure than that under consideration. Mr Buchanan followed the member for Wairarapa East (Mr Beetham) in finding fault with the Colonial Treasurer's figures relating to the Roads and Bridges Construction Act. Mr Hurst thought the Premier had placed the House in a false position in not laying the whole of the policy bills before the country during the recess. He advised the House to grant temporary relief to local bodies for thia year under the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, and take these Local Government measures back, and bring forward something of a more perfect description. Referring to anooialies in the Act, he pointed out that the large poor district of Waitemata only received £3,556 under the Local Bodies' Powers and Finance Bill, while the small rich district of Eden would receive £7,756. Mr Cowan strongly supported the measure, and expressed the opinioa that it Government could see their way to make different provision for the North and South Islands, the discussion would be much clearer. Dr. Newman said Wellington would get a subsidy of £1,500, but would have to pay £800 for police maintenance. Then, under the Hospital and Charitable Aid Bill, extra taxation amounting to £2,500 or £3,000 would have to be levied. Mr Walker eaid the provisions of the measures could be so altered in Committee as to make it perfectly workable and perfectly fair. Mr Pyre referred to the Arcadian idea of county councils building homes, and said the bill merely destroyed one vicious system and imported another. The measure was of a most temporary character, and could not survive even the two years for which the subsidies were to be granted. Mr Fisher said it was clear to any man with penetration who looked into the future that bor> owing must be discontinued absolutely. The hoaannahs which greeted the man who proposed the borrowing proposals in 1870 would lead to the political crucifixion of the man who proposed increased borrowing in 1890.Mr W. F. Bugkland approved of the measure in so far as it gave a temporary supply of money (laughter) to outlying districts. Mr Joyce thought the proposals ot the Government would help the colony to tide over the present financial difficulties. Mr tiiRST aaid the portion of the country which he came from had never benefited to any appreciable extent by the many millions of money spent in the construction of railways. That being so, he claimed a moiety of expenditure tor the construction of roads and bridges, which he coDsidered as essential to the well-being of the colony as any railways. Mr Holmes joined issue with the membe : for Egmont on the question of the construction of roads and bridges. He thought that to open up the country a portion of the money should come out of the consolidated revenue. Mr Mbnteath thought the measure was framed with a disregard to the principles which govern in dealing with roads and bridges. Mr Dobson did not like the present measure, even now that it had been stripped of its objectionable features. He did pot approve entirely of the system of subsidies. Mr Duncan was of opinion thau it was high time that the Roads and Bridges Construction Aot was repealed. He gave qualified support to the present measure, feeling satisfied that it could be made workable in committee. Mr Montgomery thought the moßt objectionable features had been withdrawn. He should vote for the geoond reading. ,,

Mr Ivess supported the bill. Col, Trimble urged the Government to withdraw the cottage scheme from the bill. Mr White expressed his great disappointment at the measure. If finance were to be put on a sound footing, he failed to see why an exception should be made in favour of goldfield districts. Mr Brown said that in Otago roads and goidfields were in a most disgraceful Btate, showing the necessity of a special subsidy, Mr Hobbs said the bill did not suit his district. It appeared to him that no Government could sit on the benches that j would not give goldfields members what they wanted. Mr Barron eaid that excepting that the bill repealed that most obnoxious measure, the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, he could not find one solitary provision j in the measure to approve. Mr Fitzherbekt considered the Counties I Act to be the worst possible system of government that could be conceived. I Sir Julius Vogel, in replying, said the determination to make the bill a party one would be adhered to. He strongly urged that railways should be pushed on while the revenue of the colony would permit \ of it. Auckland, he took leave to prophesy, would in time be thequeen city of theFacificJi When the North line was open the progress of Auckland would be enormous I Taking statistics on the basis on which the wealth of nations was ascertained, he found that there was a surplus of wealth in the oolony of £127,000,000, which gave an average of £227 on each individual, and turning to the statistics, he found that it made New Zealand almost the wealthiest colony in the world. He was not an advocate of indiscriminate borrowing from time to time, such as the House considered necessary. The second reading of the bill was carried on the voices, and its committal fixed for Friday. The House adjourned at 1.15 a.m.