DEBATE ON DR HODGKINSON'S IMMIGEATION RESOLUTION.

Southland Times, 23 December 1868, Page 7

DEBATE ON DR HODGKINSON'S IMMIGEATION RESOLUTION.

Dr Hodgkinson in moving, "That this Council, being con/inced of the absolute necessity of introducing population and capital as a mesns of restoring prosperity to the colony, is of opinion that free grants of land, at the rate of -forty acres to each adult, and twenty acres to each child, with conditions requiring settlement and improvements thereon, should be given to immigrants froni Great Britian and Ireland, and the North American Colonies, and request the representatives from Southland in the General Assembly to endeavor to effect the passing of an act in accordance with this resolution," said the subject was one of the utmost importance, not only to the province, but to the whole colony. He had not hitherto felt warranted in bringing it forward, and occupying the ' time of the Council with a discussion thereon, owing to the unfavorable financial state of the province, and to the [fact that until lately the General Government had°been comparatively indifferent to the subject. He was glad, however, to have recently observed signs of improvement in this respect, the General Government having lately enacted that a certain per centage of the land fund -should be devoted 1o immigration purposes. The action taken by several hon members showed that the urgent importance of the question was beginning to be generally acknowledged, and be hoped the Council was by this time convinced of the absolute necessity of doing something. The hon member for Boslin (Mr- Johnston) had on a previous occasion introduced a motion something similar to his, proposing to give land to immigrants in proportion to the amount expended by them in defraying their passage to the colony. The member for Oteramika (Mr Pearson) had also, at last session, brought before the Council j a l most comprehensive scheme, and had gone so fully and with ' such ability : into the matter, that he (Dr H.) felt little inclined to speak on it now at any great length. It might be objected that that the question was one more properly pertaining to the General Assembly; but the manner in which it had been entertained and spoken

upon by bon members -__. -ke 'odds-ions referred to showed that •questions of even colonial magnitude could be discussed as coinpre'hencively and with as" much ability in the Council as in the Assembly? and it was but right that the •Gtanera-1 Government and legislature _haa_d be put in possession of the views : ■of the several Provincial Councils. It really appeared, judging from the Bills •passed -on the subject, as if the nature of colonisation was not -Understood. Colonisation actually meant the introduction of people to till the soil, and any scheme not having actual settlement in view as' its primary object, was defective in principle, and would fail in accomplishing the end desired. He would refer shortly, in illustration, to the various Land Bills which had been> and were, in operation in the colony. Eirst, there was the i Imperial Bill, better known as Wakefield's scheme, under which land was Sold at £1 per acre, a certain per centage of the proceeds being applied, to the purpose of opening up the country. Next came Sir George Grey's Bill, by which land was reduced to 10s per acre. This had been -a most ruinous measure. Under Its 'operation vast quantities of the : most valuable lands in the colony had •beeft absolutely wasted— given away to «fb'sentee speculators. This was evident from the fact that large tracts of land in the vicinity of Christchurch had been sold at that price, and yet immediately thereafter, on the formation of the province of Canterbury, when the land was raised to £2 per acre, it still sold . freely*; the purchasers before the establishment of the province being thus made a gift of 30s per acre. In some other places, land had been sold at prices stiU more ruinous, fes? in certain cases it was reduced as low as 5s per acre, and the consequence was that at the present day large tracts of fine territory were stocked with a few sheep, instead of sustaining a numerous population. The next Bill he would notice, that of Canterbury, had been much praised. Our own land laws were partly framed from it, yet he did not think it deserving of all the credit it got. It had, no doubt, assisted to send that province ahead, but there were other causes in operation which had to be remembered when considering the progress Canterbury had made. It was an excellent pastoral and agricultural country, possessing many natural advantages, and had from the first, attracted men with capital. The high price of land there, however, had produced a state of things not at all one evil result being that, as a yule, the former was not a freeholder. The next Bill to which he would allude was that of Otago, under which land was sold at £1 per acre, with conditions of improvement. This Bill had, however, been mischevious in its operation. Not having been strictly administered, those who faithfully complied with its provisions and went to great expense in effecting . the stipulated improvements were no better off than the mere speculator, who could generally procure his Crown Grant as readily as the dona fide settler. At all •events no little discontent was felt at the indiscriminate manner in which the act was carried out, and it failed to attract population to any great extent. He now came to the land bill of Southland, which was also bad. He had to admit having a hand in its formation, but he could plead tbis excuse, that it was framed to meet certain exceptional circumstances. It was, iv feet, produced under extreme pressure, its chief aim being to make land Bell rapidly to raise funds for certain pressing liabilities, rather than with the object of inducing settlement. He agreed with the resolutions which had already been passed by the Council, but thought they did not go far enough, and that they were not probably the est that might be devised to encourage the right j class of immigrants from Europe. He believed the great defect of past Land Bills to consist in their being framed more with regard to their effect in raising money than for the purpose of facilitating and encouraging settlement. It did not even seem to have been a fortunate thing for the provinces to have large revenues, as the rule had been, the more money the more extravagance and recklessness. He believed that when, a few years ago, land was raised to 40s an acre, it was simply with the object of having more money to spend, and to spend on costly works of a comparatively useless character unless the fixed population was correspondingly increasing at the same time. He believed it would have been better to have given away all our land to bona fide settlers than that its disposal should have been made simply the source of supply for extravagance, without reference to its effects on actual settlement. Before going further into the system of free grants, he would . notice a few of the objections generally raised against it. The first was that there was in it something of injustice to the old settlers. They, naturally enough, asked the question — Who most deserved the gift? and as naturally answered, — those who have borne the burden and heat of the day. This, he considered, was altogether a false view of the subject, proceeding from an erroneous impression as to the nature of the transaction. The land given to the immigrant could not, or should not, be regarded as a gift, but as purchased by him for a given consideration. It could not be regarded as a gift, as it was neither given from motives of charity, nor as the reward of merit, but was simply sold to him at its presumed wprth — -value to be received in some way or other for it. The land was the public estate, and we had no right to part with it except on terms the best obtainable for the public advantage. To part with it as he proposed, he considered the species of sale best calculated to promote the interests even of those already here, who had purchased their land, and, if looked at in its true light, would be seen to be neither unjust nor injurous to the old settlers. jle_would make a comparison

adopted by private speculators. . A man buys a fr&et of land, lays it out Into lots, a dumber of which are bought tip and occupied. Bye-and-bye the owner finds his sections, are 'riot selling freely, and he thinks* to give the place a fresh start, it j would be advisable to give away some on certain conditions. The old settler then comes and says "you are ,givjng away land, why not give me some ? When the speculator, of course replies, " Oh, you are already here, and have got your land at what you considered it worth'; its the other roan t want, and to get him to come I must offer some encouragement ; his coming will in no way injure you, but rather be to your advantage, as you will share in the prosperity induced by his presence." The transaction was entirely of the nature of a purchase. We can't get population. We want it — must have it — and consequently must offer a premium for it. This was the right idea on the subject ; the other was false, and should be got quit of. At the same time it was necessary, to make the scheme effective, that free grants of land should be conjoined with conditions requiring actual settlement, which should be the principal object of all Land Bills. This plan also possessed the recommendation of extreme simplicity. It offered land at once, instead of first turning it into ; money, and then applying ,it to immigration. Thus the extent of immigration was limited only by the extent of waste land in possession. Here we had at least a million acres, which could be made at • once directly available, instead of waiting till it was sold in driblets, and then spending the proceeds in introducing immigrants who we had no gurantee would become bona fide settlers. He might compare immigration to irrigation, and would say, " don't apply to a rill when ; yoU have a broad stream at hand." There was plenty of population in Europe, a constant stream was flowing from thence, and we should try to catch some of it. We had in our possession the means of attracting it to our shore, but , would not avail ourselves of them to their full extent. The scheme was thus at once simple, comprehensive, and practicable, and while doing no injustice to the early settler, offered positive and substantial advantages to the intending immigrant. A man with his wife and four of a family would be entitled to 160 acres, which was something solid and tangible to begin with, and would have a great effect in drawing population, as it was, so far as the immigrant was concerned, a positive saving of £160. As regarded us, it amouuted to a sale of the land, and the purchaser paid dear enough for it, but to the man in England it would really appear a gift, and thus possess an additional feature of attraction by allowing him to retain all his capital to begin with. Another advantage was that it not only attracted a stream of immigration, but it secured a fixed population. The land being the object for which the immigrant had come, on it he would go, and on it he would remain. Another recommendation of the scheme was its great antiquity. It was nothing new. The Bomans, who were most successful colonisers, had practised it upwards of 2000 years ago, and in later times it had been put into successful operation in America, New South Wales, and Tasmania, to all of which places it had attracted a great many people. The next argument for the plan was its absolute necessity. We had thousands of acres of valuable land lying idle, which would not sell, on which we could not raise money to bring people out even on the present system, and it was perfectly evident that they would not come spontaneously in any considerable numbers. We had to compete for population with other new countries, some of which oflered still greater inducements, and unless we adopted some such scheme we were placed at a disadvantage in the competition, and could not expect to divert, to any appreciable extent, the stream of population constantly flowing from the shores of Great Britain and other places in Europe, the greater portion of which found its way to America, attracted there by the liberal terms on which land was to be obtained, and the cheapness of transit. The American Government, during the first administration of Mr Lincoln, some seven years ago, had passed a Bill for the purpose of securing homesteads to actual settlers on the public domain, which was of the most liberal and attractive character. The principle of the Act was that every foreigner going to the United States, and becoming a citizen, could obtain 160 acres free, on condition of settling on it for five years, at the end of which time he would be given a Crown Grant. The Republic of Chile had also recently seen the necessity of adopting measures to attract population, and now offered most tempting terms to immigrants — the particulars of which he had recently seen published in a local paper — they not onlp gave the land at a j very low rate, with plenty of time to | pay, but they actually supplied the immigrant, if necessary, with the means of cultivating his ground — giving him impliments, rations, seed, and cattle. With such examples before us it was plain we must do something. We could scarcely expect to be placed on an equall footing with America ; its exhaustless territory would cause the stream always to flow in that direction, but we might get at least the driblets. The advantages of a pecuniary kind which we had to offer, combined with a mild climate, and the fact that they would still be under British rule, might decide the doubt with many, and turn the scale in preference of New Zealand. It was also to be observed that this plan would in no way interfere with the working of that now in operation, or with the other schemes proposed. It might even be an advantage to have several going on at once, each being suited to different classes of immigrants. He was of opinion, however, that if ever this system was enforced it should be applied solely to tamiiies, not to young unmarried men,

the primary object. He considered that if it could be put in operation, even as far only as Stewart's Island, it would be - worth all the trouble they had taken about it, and there Were btner districts — the West Coast and elsewhere — where it could be carried on without the danger of interfering with existing interests. There were plenty of people on the west coast of Scotland, and in British North America, who would gladly come hereif proper inducements were held but to them. Those people, from previous training, were admirably suited for these localities. ; At the same time he thought it would be a pity to in any way restrict the operation of the scheme by limiting it to any particular district, or even to the whole area of this Province, and would rather see it made a colonial one applied to the whole lands of the country.,. Another objection raised against, the free grant ! system was that it had lately been tried in Auckland, and failed. That it had done so was due to a defect in the system there adopted, viz., the absence of .. conditions of settlement. The land had simply been given away to any person who came to the province, little care being exercised in getting the right class. Instead of farmers, and people accustomed to agricultural or pastoral pursuits, or to other industries practicable in a new country, the greater number were tradesmen and shopmen, men ill adapted for pioneers, and not at all required, at least in any number, in their own calling. The consequeuee was general dissatisfaction. A few from British America, being of the right sort, did well ; the others, many of them, never went near their land, but left the province, while very few actually settled on it. The only condition attached to the grant was that the immigrant should remain in the province four years, a stipulation which had the effect of locking up the land, as the Government could not resume it until the expiration of that term. In short, the Auckland scheme was a bad system badly administered ; besides, they had but little land to give, and of that, to the immigrant, the choice was not extensive, being mostly forest. The Auckland system was therefore no criterion whatever of the value ofthe scheme he proposed. Another objection was, that it was expensive, that there was something lavish in the very idea of giving away land. Those who had gone thoroughly into the matter, however, saw that if was in reality the best possible way to sell it. If by giving away land you could get men, the exchange was surely a beneficial one. In America, when the cotton trade was brisk, a man, even a black one, a poor slave, was valued at £400; surely a stalwart English farmer was worth more, and by this plan we would get them at much less. Eor 160 acres of land, otherwise comparatively useless, we would get, not one man, but a family of six, whose contributions to the* Customs revenue alone, at the present average rate, would in a few years' pay off the whole, not to speak of the other benefits accruing from their labor and expenditure. If it could be proved to him that the land could be sold, and that population and capital would at the same time flow in, he would withdraw the motion, but asthatwas hopeless he thought it should be passed. Another objection was that the land was after all no great attraction, that no one cared about it, looking at the first cost as a mere nothing compared with the outlay required to make it productive, some £6 or £8 an acre. This objection was also quite erroneous. Imagine a family selling off in England for the purpose of emigrating, and suppose their sale realise £500," and that this sum is then reduced some £150 in paying their passage out. If it has to be still further reduced by £160 for land, their capital stands at a very small amount, scarcely sufficient to start with. In short it made all the difference between success, and a very hard struggle. Another objection was, that we would by introducing this system loose our land revenue ; consideration would, however, show that it would practically increase it, so long as we had land to sell. The people who came out would not be content with the amount of their grants, but would buy quantities of that adjoining. They would also send for their friends, who who would come and do likewise, and thus the country would soon be so well settled that we could do without the land revenue, the customs being increased to such an extent as would be amply sufficient for all local rates. Another objection, was that it would be a rash step to bring so many people, as would likely be attracted by the scheme, to the Province at once. He thought this also an error, and had no fears of too many coming. Coming with a definite object in view, which they would be certain to carry out, there would be no danger of creating a population for wb.iclutb.ere was no employment. Another objection was that, apart from the land we had no advantages to offer. His own opinion was that no colony in the southern seas had greater advantages to offer than Southland. He would conclude by again urging the extreme necessity existing for devising means to bring people to the country. It might be said that it was late in the day to begin, but we had to learn in the school of experience, and finding that one system did not answer, we should try another. He still hoped to see the return of prosperity, to see the introduction of population, capital, and cultivation, and then would be seen what was most important of all, the object of all their labors — the waste and desolate places of the laud inhabited by industrious and prosperous families. Mr Peaeson, in seconding the motion, said — I need hardly say, Mr Speaker, that I cordially support my friend Dr Hodgkinson's proposal. Any proposition for the introduction of population, and consequent lessening of our present burdens will meet with my earnest co-opera-tion, but I must beg my friend to limit the area for free grants of land to ■S*fcow.i-,f.». TaUT-iri. and thf. nresflnl; him.

I dreds. I cannot consent to any breach of the positive agi-e'emeht entered into between the Government and Squatters, when our present land regulations were passed. The agreement was specific. They, on the one hand, consented to give up their old licenses, at a nominal rental, for certain privileges, • the Government obtaining on the other a higher rental frb*h them, and the right of selling land at any time on any of their runs — termed free selection. Eree grants of land will be a direct breach of this arrangement, and to this I will not consent, it would be dishonest. Nor do I see that it would act as a bar to Dr Hodgkinson's proposition. There is olenty of land on Stewart's Island and the Hundreds to satisfy a moderate demand by free grantees, and in Victoria the area in which certain exclusive privileges are granted, is restricted. Dr Monckton thought the Council threatened with an inundation of immigration schemes, and wondered if there was to be a new one every session. He thought the two primary objects of any immigration scheme should be the introduction of capital and labor, and he feared the one before the Council was not calculated to procure that result, as people who would come here for the sake of a few acres of land were not likely to be possessed of much money, and being bound to settle on their own land they could not be looked upon as supplying the labor market. He would not, however, oppose the scheme so much had not two other schemes been in progress already. He thought the old plan of deferred payments, far superior. *Mr Johnston would support the motion. He thought it good policy to give away the land to induce settlement, He had formerly introduced a motion on the same subject, and had also supported the resolutions subsequently introduced by Mr Pearson, as he thought too many plans for the attraction of population could scarcely be put in operation. He was not afraid of schemes multiplying too fast, if they were all treated as the two former had been. He had been informed that the resolutions referred to were not laid on the table of the House of Assembly until the night of its prorogation, and beleived that had they been forwarded in time they would have produced a bill, for the South at least, some way in accordance therewith. Mr Daniel agreed with Dr Hodgkinson's resolution, but thought 40 acres too little, at all events for such places as Stewart's Island. In that locality he thought 80 acres should be given to each adult, and 30 to each child, the sections being laid out so as to give every one, as far as possible, a water frontage. He was sure that if the advantages possessed by Stewart's Island were known to the right class of persons, people in North America and the West Highlands of Scotland, they would soon come here in numbers. They should be advised of the suitable kind of vessel required for fishing or trading here, schooners of 150 tons, when they would build vessels to bring themselves over, and would then have them to commence fishing with at once. It was very tantalising to think that a large number of boats, from Tasmania and elsewhere, were engaged on our coasts in oil fishing, when not a cent of the profits came into our hands. With regard to the attraction of climate, he had to admit that the weather lately had been rather boisterous, but to the inhabitants of the localities mentioned even such a season as this would be perfect summer. He felt certain that were the facilities he had alluded to — facilities for whaling, sealing, fishing, shipbuilding, &c, &c, with fine climate — aiade known and pointed out to these people — West Highlanders and North Americans — we should have lots of them here right off. Mr Basstian would support the motion if the operation of the scheme were restricted to certain limits, say Stewart's Island and certain portions of the mainland. Financially, he looked upon it as the best scheme possible. The Customs revenue averaged something like £5 a head of the population, which would be equal to 12f per cent per annum on the land given, certainly a good return on capital. He would also like to dee female immigration encouraged in some way, the scarcity of good domestic servants being a constant source of complaint. He war glad to hear Dr Hodgkinson admit the Land Bill in operation, giving free selection, was bad, and had proved a failure. He had said such would be the case long ago. The squatters were by it forced to buy up, and he had found it a bad investment; were population introduced his land might be required, and he would be very glad to sell. He was sorry to see the German element left out, as" he thought them excellent colonists. He said a statement lately made by a correspondent to one of the local journals, to the effect that the introduction of Germans to Tasmania had been found a nuisance, was not in accordance with facts, the scheme was never tried in Tasmania. In Adelaide, however, a great proportion of the early settlers were Germans, and they had certainly succeeded in making it a great agricultural country. In Tasmania they had given land for all capital introduced, even when in the form of machinery or implements. This system was of course liable to abuse, andhadoftenbeentakenadvantage of. He was certain, however, that but for the inducements held out, Tasmania would' never have succeeded, as a very great proportion of the land was under dense forest, and very ext; nsive to clear. He would be glad tr> support the scheme if made not to hii; i vested interests. He would even pry.ose the reservation of the blocks -»r iand adjoining those allocated for free grants. The Pbovincial Teeasueeb would support the resolution had the Province been in the same position as the others, or if he had any hope of the General Government entertaining the project. He thought that by confining the scheme to a small limit there was a greater liklihood of its beins carried, and if it was

possible to induce the General Government to give grants even on Stewart's Island only, it would be a great advantage to the Province. If put specialism this way there might be Jippes of getting the General Government to acceed to it, otherwise, he fb&red not. Of course the matter would rest with the House of Representatives, but if opposed by the ministry on financial grounds the Assembly would not be likely to carry it. There was also the question of roadVto be considered. If the land was to be given to the immigrants for nothing, whence was the money to come for making roads for them ; their land would be little use without the means of transit. He thought if the Land Laws Were to be altered at all, they should be made to resemble those of Victoria, where the | land was now being sold on dtf erred pay- | ments. The system was working well ; I drawing a large population. Referring , [ to the remarks of Mr Johnston, regarding the former resolutions not reaching Wellington till the last day of the session, he was very sorry that such a thing had occurred, and could not account for it except on the supposition that a subordinate official had been neglectful. So far as the resolution passed at last session were concerned, he could state that they were posted the very day following their passing the Council. Whatever had delayed their reaching Wellington the Government were not to blame. Mr Aemsteong thought the Council indebted to Dr Hodgkinson for the able speech with which he had introduced the resolution. He thought, however, they must confine the scheme to Stewart's Island, the Hundreds, and the 2000 acre blocks, in which there were still plenty of, land to support a very large population. It was said that 40 acres was not enough, that a man could'nt live on it, but there were plenty here already who lived comfortably on less. He meant that plenty, of settlers, although possessing much more, were really living on less that 40 acres ; their cultivated land not exceeding that amount. With regard to the fisheries, they had been tried already, and found not to pay, and consequently could not be considered any great inducement to people to come here. He (Mr A.) thought the law of supply and demand as applicable to population as to any other thing. There wereplenty of men here idle now, and it would be, to say the least, injudicious to force population into the Province until it was prepared for its reception. He would, however, support the motion, as he thought they could not try too many plans. Mr Basstian, (speaking to Mr Armstrong) — I think it should be confined to certain districts to prevent its clashing with the squatters. If you take their, land you know the consequences— cornel pensation. With regard to the idle men said to be here, I can only say I have found none in the country. Mr Aemsteong resumed — He considered 40 acres of good land in a settled country quite enough, as it would attract,, and fix a population whose labor might be available occassonally to larger adjacent holders. His neighbors had often worked for him to their mutual advantage. . y Mr Basstian bad found men with small holdings of their own, which did not fully occupy their time, the most valuable assistants. It was, in fact, the best kind of labor you could get. Mr Johnston, in proposing an amendment — the addition of a few words relative to forwarding copies of the resolution to the representatives of the province — thought they might be able to get Stewart's Island set aside for special settlement, and, if the scheme was found workable, we might then get it applied to other places. There was plently of land in the province, which would .long remain unsaleable, that might in this way be made to bring in a revenue. With regard to the grant of 40 acres being too. small, he knew plenty of farmers here owning more, but living on less. Mr Caldeb would suggest an alteration which would probably meet both his own and Mr Basstian's views. He thought immigrants arriving from anywhere should be treated the same as those from Britain or Canada, and would delete the words after " given to immigrants," viz., from G-reat Britain and Ireland and the North American (Monies. He thought no class views or national tendencies should be introduced, .but the sphemf placed on the broadest possible basis, ana its advantages offered freely to all, without regard to whence they came, on the" broad but simple ground of their compliance with the conditions. Referring to the objections brought forward, it was easy to raise obstacles against any scheme which might be mooted, but those he had heard adduced against /this scheme were none of them solid or fundamental, they were not against the system itself, but rather related to circumstances connected with its introduction. They were simply fears lest the General Government should 1 look at us as differing from other provinces, and treat us differently. He thought in so doing the CouncU were looking too much at the matter as a purely provincial one, forgetting the wisdom of the wording of the resolution, which regarded the scheme as one calculated to restore prosperity to the colony. It was, also, but right to give the General Government the benefit of the views of the various Provincial Councils, so that out of I ' the whole the Assembly might devise a colonial scheme acceptable to its several parts. There was one great obstacle to immigration at present existing, which had been much overlooked — the war. People at home did not discriminate between the places where fighting was actually going on and those at a safe distance, they simply looked to the fact that there was war in New Zealand. This had, no doubt, a great effect in keeping back population, and was a contingency which would have to be anticipated in any immigration scheme, and met by holding out inducements never effered before. The debt of the colony was very heavy, amounting to about £35

per head, aeducting thfe floating pW& tion. This, also, wm ft ,- burden wni-fa. must prevent an inward flow of pepulk* tion unless counterbala^ißecl by^otj^ benefits, and yet increase of population was the only means by vVhich tbe bt-irden' could be lightened/ With regard -to' restricting the plan to certain localities, he thought special settlements objectionable ; discontent was sure to be engendered. If a man was forced to go on, to a particular spot of land when he might; wish to go elsewhere, he would certainly be dissatisfied. He would prefer learing the matter to theY^jraei^ Assem_»lj« merely indicating the .coursethe thought, best; , Witb regard ,fo what h«f been said about the Southland Bill; ne had had some hand in framing ; *«j a__d might say it was brought forward for the purpose of raising money to reduce the Provincial debt ; clauses providing for free grants had been inserted, but were disallowed by the General Government. The Bill had, however, accomplished its object- as the debt was reduced by £200,000, and Southland thereby- re- | instated, in her position in the community of provinces. But for that act she might still have been iii the helpless position of vassalage she occirpied vfhe_land was £2 per acre. He WaV gl_d tc» observe so much unanimity on the subject^ and that the fallaciotis idea abb-ft " injustice to the old settler,' was dying out. He hoped the House would remen.*ber that the subject was a colonial as weH as a provincial one, and hare thai steadily in view when dealing with'it. Dr Hodgkinson said he had purposely inserted the word colony to give the motion a Colonial significance, and confining it to Stewart's Island or the hundreds in its application would spoil ? its effect and make it purely local By leaving it 1 open he had no fear of the squaters suffering. The small farmers likely to be attracted bythe Bcbemie would'not go so far back as the'-ronS, asud big buyers could go there already % besides which; the squatting interest was largely represented in the Assembly, many of the ablest men in V it being squatters, and they were qt-itecapaWe of protecting their own interests! >: Mr Peaeson said he had Ho possiWe objection to the amendment. He did not think they could be ini__dated with too many schemes; the more taey dis* cussed the better the subject wotud be ventilated, and they could all be condensed before next session^whichj he believed, would take place before next sitting of the Assembly— when one good scheme might be matured from the wnole. He thought, however, Stewart's Island and the present hundreds were a sufficient area for its application. '-■:• There was plenty of room on the Island- alone for \ -3000 or 4000 immigrants*, and be was certain if any disposition were: shown to break faith with the squatters, itwotilcl militate against the success of th* measure in the General Assembly. I'prty acres were quite sufficient. He knew a good living to be made off five acres by Germans on Stewarts Island ; .' and then there were the fisheries at their -doors, for the produce of which a good market existed both here and in Dunedin^ . He would object to the Words "Australian Colonies" being introduced, the General Governm ent would'nt like it, as • it was bidding for immigrants from 7 a sister colony ; he would prefer to see it left open and general,freetoany who chose to come. With regard to its effect on the Land Bevenue, he thought the sooner the General Government realised the idea that the provinces would never: pay their own debts the better. They would find that they must utilise the "Waste Lands of the Crown, without reference so much to locality, for the extinction of colonial debt • ■-.*.• -'■••-'•: Mr Dalbymple was getting trioife and more confused the moire immigration schemes were discussed. " The matter was simple enough if we dealt faithfully with those already here, : who'would soon bring out their frieiids if fairly treated. As it was now we couldn't keep those who came ; they went away, he cpuld'nt tell why. He had no objection. to Germans, and would use them, if they, came, as he would anybody else, but he thought if we had any benefits to bestow Britain had a prior claim on our liberality, in consideration of her keeping up ai fleet and army for our defence and protection. hon mover had spoken about the simplicity of the scheme, he (Mr D.) did'nt believe in the simplicity of giving away land (a laugh), he did'nt believe in giving away anything. A.fter comparing the relative cost of Government here and in the United States, and quoting from Dr Adam Smith, the hon member cbhtinu«| —Itis these things, Sir, our dear Q^B vernment and enormous debt, tha^| staggers intending immigrants, and we are getting deeper into it again. These are what tell against immigration. In spite of all our schemes population was getting less. It was the madness and folly of spending money on useless projects that was driving people awiay. After some further discussion -Dr Hodgkinson replied shortly, after which the motion, in the following amended form, was put and carried on the voices :—" That this Council being convinced of the * absolute . necessity of introducing population and^ capital as a means of restoring prosperty to the colony, is of opinion that free grants of land, at the rate of forty acres of land to each adult, and twenty acres. for each child, with conditions requiring- settlement thereon/ should; be given to immigrants paying for their own; passages, such grants in the Province of Southland tobe given only in the Hundreds, the 2,000 acre blocks, and Stewart's Island, and request the 'representatives from Southland, in the General Assembly, to endeavor to effect the passing of -an Act in accordance with this resolution ; and that copies of this resolution be forwarded to the Honorable Colonial Secretary, and to each of Tthe representatives for Southland in the General Assembly."