EVENING- SITTING.

Southland Times, 23 December 1868, Page 7

EVENING- SITTING.

> _____ 3 THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL ORDINANCE b 1866, AMENDMENT ORDINANCE, 1868. 3 Mr Peaeson said*— Mr Speaker, in " moving the second reading of the " Exec utive Council Ordinance, 1866, " " Amendment Ordinance, 1868," I will 3 not detain the House with any lengthened 1 arguments on the advisability and neces. 3 sity of changing the present Ordinance, *- they may be condensed into the word r " retrenchment," retrenchment in the J proper quarter, the political expenditure. 1 This Ordinance applies the axe to the 5 root of the parasite which has crushed L the vitality out of the Provincial tree, not > only in this, but in every other Province > in New Zealand. A parasite which has * been nourished by the attempt to imitate a form of Government applicable to ■ larger communities. The main features of the Ordinance are — reduction in official expenditure, simplicity in form of i Government, definition of responsibility, all of which, I would imagine, few will . deny are desirable ; I do not anticipate, therefore, much opposition. This amended Ordinance must, of course, be read with , the old one, and I shall consequently proceed to point out the proposed alterations ; and first, I must explain that the bill I propose differs from the printed one before you, and for the following reasons : — I gave the Government the manuscript bill about a week before the Council met, with the view of ascertaining whether it would bring it forward itself, I got , no decided answer till the day before the meeting, when I was told the Bill was in the hands of the printers ; and subsequently that the Government would rather not bring it in, so it was printed in the original form. Since then, however, on mature consideration the Bill has been still further simplified. These alterations I will now read, and move them in committee. Mr Pearson here explained the intended alterations to the effect that the offices of Provincial Solicitor, Secretary and Accountant were to be abolished, and the Provincial Treasurership made a permanent appointment, by which a saving of £850 a year, for political and unnecessary expenditure, might be effected. He concluded by saying that the Council was constantly talking of retrenchment. Here was an opportunity of effecting it, and in the right direction, striking at the root instead of clipping the twigs. He moved the Bill be read a second time. Dr Hodgkinson seconded it reserving the right of speaking on it later. Mr Basstian complained that there was an absence of detail. It seemed to him as though the retrenchment was to be effected in one department only. Mr Peaeson explained that the only officer of the Government he proposed to retain was the Provincial Treasurer, there would be a saving of £350 in this department. The present salary paid to the Provincial Solicitor would be saved with the exception of about £50 which perhaps might have to be paid for legal advice. The charges of conveyances and other deeds are paid extra at the present so that there would be no difference in that respect. There would be a reduction of £200 in the payment of country members, as the Executive might be chosen, and probably would be chosen from the town members. Mr Daniel was not prepared at present to say that he would support the motion. He thought the measure introduced was worthy of the earnest and careful consideration of every member of the Council, and that none would do his duty who did not carefully and atten. tively weigh the subject. Look at it as we might it was one of deep importance. Considering that the mover of the resolution had as good an opportunity as anyone of arriving at a conclusion as to the practicability of the resolution contemplated, his opinion was entitled to respect. The reduction appeared large — the Treasury department now costing £700 per annum — whether it could be effected without damage was the question. Dr Hodgkinson would support the Bill. He said he regarded the measure simply aa an instalment of what we ought to receive. He thought the Executive should be chosen from outside the Council as well as within it. There would in such case be less difficulty of obtaining help when needed. The proposed financial gain was a great object. Dr Hodgkinson referred to the practice in Switzerland and America where the Council was elected by citizens. He (Dr Hodgkinson) would give power to the Council to remove members of the Executive when necessary. If the Treasurer were not a member of the Council, he thought he should have a right of sitting there, but not the right of voting. As he had before said he simply regarded the measure as an instalment, but

y thought we had better" for the present be satisfied with the instalment. What the c Attorney-General might think of the Bill f was another matter— perhaps it might v not find much favor in that quarter. He (Dr Hodgkinson) would have liked something beyond this, but supposed we 'f must be content sometimes to drop oui '} own views. He would support the Bill as an - improvement on the present system. 8 Mr DjALBYMjple was suspicious that c the retrenchment proposed was not real. c He thought retrenchment must come i from the people, and be settled next - election. He confessed he did not underB stand the change proposed, and was not 7 prepared to grapple with it. Mr Aemsteong supported the motion ; the reason the Ordinance was not - introduced by the Government was that h »- the Executive were not agreed on the matter, and Mr Pearson was asked to bring it forward. There were some :? members of the Council who were * always crying out for retrenchment, yet when a tangible measure was introduced, these patriots offered every opposition; * they were willing, however, to take the public money themselves when opportunity offered. The present measure was not the same as that referred to by the Government last session. ' Mr Johnston, referring to clause 4 of the present Executive Ordinance, and also to clause 5 of the same — fixing the 1 lowest number of the Executive at three, ', and for which the present Bill proposed ■ to substitute two — said the Bill made no I provision for the presence of the Superintendent at the meeting of the Execu- " tive. He could not support the Bill. [ Mr M'Clube objected to abolish the . office of Provincial Solicitor. No doubt the high salary which that officer . received was an obstacle to his retention, but still he thought the office should be retained. He believed there would be no : real saving in this particular, and instanced cases of difficulty which had arisen in respect to the Northern Bailroad. Mr Longuet thought the matter had better be postponed. Mr Caldeb said he had not yet heard a single objection to the principle of the Bill, and therefore, in the application of the ordinary rule, it ought to go into Committee. If the object of the opposition has been that issue should betaken, then let it come to the vote. All that had been said had been subsidiary and relative to detail. Retrenchment is the fundamental principleofthe B\ll,a,ndibmust go into Committee. Opposition to a committal is really an opposition to retrenchment. Look at the present position of the Province. We have liabilities of many thousands, and our position is admitted on all hands to be one of great danger ; a false step may, and probably will, eventuate in financial and political disgrace. He supported the bill further, because it gave work to those whose duty it was to perform it. The Superintendent of the Province should not be a small king, but should perform the principal political work of the Province, and to accomplish this was one of the objects of the Bill. It was our duty to discard private feeling and to look at the matter as a great public question, and to face our position. The measure before the Council was the only measure of real retrenchment that had been brought forward. The mover had shown how to save from £600 to £800 — by placing the chief work on the Superintendent, and to retain besides only one officer — in the Treasury — and he would not be by any means overwrought. He hoped the Council would think seriously ' of our liabilities coming due, with no immediate prospect of our meeting them* We must help ourselves and look matters fairly in the face. It is only by such a measure as the one now before the Council that we can hope to infuse and and restore confidence. Let it be rejected and a crisis is inevitable. Unless our expenses be reduced to the minimum, dire calamity will overtake us, and that speedily. This is no rhapsody, but plain dealing with a simple question, yet involving a solemn responsibility. If we could give a gurantee : to those who assist us that £2000 might be saved from our years' expenditure, such a gurantee would inspire confidence in those able to help us. He (Mr C.) was not surprised at anything that came from the member for Oreti. It was no personal feeling that induced him (Mr C.) to support the measure. He thought the ' suspicions' of the member for Oreti were spurious rather than real. Mr Dalrymple had referred to the elections, and he (Mr C.) would like to know, how the member for Oreti got into the Council ? and whether he would have any chance in facing a large constituency ? Mr Johnson had said he did not understand the provisions of the Bill. This was a reason for going into committee. As to any question which might be raised whether one man could do all the work which the Bill would assign to him, he (Mr C.) would say that during the busiest season of the Province one man actually did it and did it well too. He (Mr C.) would now leave the matter with the Council, he was satisfied he had done all he could. Objections had been taken to the way in which the Bill had been brought in, which was really the same as that in which every other Bill ion the same subject had been brought forward. If hon. members did not understand, or were suspicious, this was really nothing against the Bill itself. He (Mr C.) felt confident that if the House should go into committee and would pass the Bill, the prospacts of the Province would brighten. Oa the contrary course being taken the gloom would increase. Mr Dalbymple explained that his suspicions were based on the doings of a former Retrenchment Committee. Mr Eoss said that Mr Calder had argued that the principle of this bill was retrenchment. He (Mr B.) thought it was a bill to alter the administration of affairs in the Province. Under it the Provincial Treasurer would have sole

i control. . With our present Superintendent 3 he (Mr 3J.) would ask, would not au 1 active Treasurer be really the Superin. t tendent ? Mr Pearson had said the bill 3 defined responsibility, now he (Mr B.) I denied that. The old Ordinance was ? passed to limit the power of the Superin* t* tendent. i Mr Johnston moved an amendment — " That the consideration of the ' Execufc tive Council Ordinance,' 'Amendment . Ordinance' be postponed until next j session." He said his was not a factious fc opposition, he wished to have the bill - thoroughly debated. He objected to il fc because he thought it was an attempt tc introduce absolute government. It was ; not expedient to introduce the bill now. The Province was, without doubt, in ; difficulty, but the assistance which the ; retrenchment proposed by this bill would > effect was a mere trifle, especially after the ! liberality with which land had been voted s i last night. ; • Mr Pbatt seconded the amendment. , ? Mr Basstian came determined to ; oppose the motion. He thought nevers theless, the mover was entitled to great credit for having brought it forward, i Still it was his opinion it was the duty of i the Government to have done this. There was to his mind a difficulty in the bill, that no responsible minister was provided for. He would rather the bill stood over. Mr Abmstbong would oppose the amendment. He had heard no reason against the Bill. It had been objected that the Bill should have been brought in by the Government. It was brought in now to save time. The objections of honorable members were really frivolous. Mr Caldeb opposed the amendment. If tbe Bill were thrown out now it would be impossible to legislate on the subject in January. If passed, the estimates could be framed in January in accordance with the provisions of the Bill. The mover of the amendment had spoken of expediency. He (Mr C.) would reply that the expediency of the case was such that the Bill could not be postponed until next session. It must be met by a decided negative. To assume that members would not work in the Executive without they were paid, was an unfair assumption, as was also the assumption that they would feel less keenly for the interests of the Province if unpaid, they were working with a paid official. The Bill proposes to place the Superintendent at the head of the Executive, and make him really the head of; the Government. To argue otherwise infers ignorance of the Bill. Is it not true that on the roads one man does all the work ? It is — and his (Mr C.'s) recollection enabled him to say confidently, that in the earlier times the Superintendent, with an assistant, had. got through more work that is to be done at present. , Mr Johnston explaining that the amendment proposed by him was not in accordance with parliamentary practice, begged leave to withdraw it and substitute — " That the * Executive Council Amendment Ordinance' be read a second time this day six months." Mr Pbatt seconded. Mr Daniel had come to the House prepared, as he had before said, to consider the subject carefully, but with an intention, so far as he could ascertain, that his mind was made up to oppose the Bill. He had listened to what had been urged against it, and in its favor by Mr Calder; and he had now made up his i mind that he could not conscientiously oppose it. The Bill had this in its favor, it made a clean sweep— it was no paltry £5 reduction, but something tangible. As he (Mr D.) was satisfied that retrenchment must be the order of the day, he thought there was no time like the present. He could see no objection to the Bill, but on the contrary, would support it. Dr Monckton said they had in that House, men who were perpetually raising thehowlof " retrenchment," who protested against spending a shilling of public money, yet when a tangible proposal to retrench was made, they, to a man, opposed it. There was the member for Oreti — every one knew what his patriotism was. It was patent to them all the Bill had been long required. The political expenses of the Province had been too great. Let the Bill be passed, if it were found not to work, or required to be altered in detail, it could be amended. Mr Peaeson in replying, said — To the various arguments which have been adduced by the opponents to this Bill I will first cursorily dismiss my honorable friend, the member for Oreti, Mr Dalrymple, who has referred to me personally. Usually I apply the lash freely, but the present subject is so utterly helpless and miserable that I will content myself by calling his attention to tbe fable of the wolf who being caught in sheep's clothing, was hung for the same ; j the real settlers in the Province, those j who have something to lose, have satisfied themselves as to his wolfish proclivities. Besides some allowance ought to be made for him seeing that by the resoi lution passed at this morning's sitting he is deprived of what he has hitherto unjustly claimed, his honorarium &s member, and 15s a day is an object of i moment to your howling patriot. I, will condense the arguments used in opposition. As to the one, how do we know that retrenchment will really be carried out ? it has been promised before, I reply, my Bill, by striking out certain offices, insures retrenchment, and that is 'one reason why it should be passed if you seriously mean retrenchment. You talk of political responsibility and political duties, surely in such a small place the latter can be managed by the Superintendent without much strain on his intellectual faculties ; as to the former, you can have just as much under, my Ordinance as under the present one. The Provincial Treasurer may, or may not, be a member of the Council ; if he is, he can take his seat ; if not, I presume there is enough patriotism amongst you to enable three or four members to work as

;, an Executive for the public good without i being paid *for4t;*>_>there is not, you - don't deserve : to , have : . your present 1 political privileges, and ought to have a \ despotism. You talk of political respon--3 sibility as it now exists ; why, Sir, it is a - farce ; the opponents to my measure know as well as I do, that the present - Provincial Treasurtr and Government are . kept in simply because there are no fc successors to be got, and for this farce b you want to pay £350 a-year. You say 3 "we must have someone to abuse, and we I must pay him to be abused,"! let ua b enquire into this. If you abuse the ) Provincial Treasurer, either he ought or 3 ought not to be abused. H the former, . itis because he has done wrong, and i ought to be ousted; if the latter, those > who abuse him unjustly, ought to be I ousted ; now you have been abusing him » all this session either justly or unjustly ; [ \ yet there he is. To pay £350 a-year for the fun of the thing is more than T am prepared to endorse. If, like children, » you must have your rattle, get it . cheap ; it strikes me, however, ; that there will be less abuse when the ofiice is made a permanent one. 7 To come to the point at once, Ithe real gist of the opposition to this Bill arises ! from the fact that it takes away the leg . of mutton from the top of the greasy . pole. We now simplify the matter. Take away the leg of mutton and there will be less abuse, men will seek to enter the Council with purer motives, and the Executive also. Men will enter not to secure the leg of mutton, but to assist in working out the problem of self-govern- ' ment for their adopted country. I have no fear but what you wil obtain, such, while under the present system they would hold back. The ordinary Executive duties can be as well executed by the Superintendent as now, indeed better, for they ought to be. Under my proposition you will have as much reality of responsible government as now, without the leg of mutton. I have thought over and carefully prepared this Bill. It provides a simple and cheap form of Government ; take it or leave it, just as you please. I will not consent to a" postponement till next session j if you refuse to pass it, I will take no further steps in the matter. Bear in mind if you reject it, you reject retrenchment, you evidence to the bank and General Government you are not desirous of facing the position boldly, determinedly; that, ybu are not equal to the occasion. If you reject it don't let any member get lip next session and talk about retrenchment,! by reducing a police cooks' salary £5 ; mine iarieal not spurious retrenchment.' Take away the leg of mutton from yourselves, 1 don't deprive officials of their crumbs. This is my Bill ; accept or reject it as you'wilL On the amendment being put the Speakee ruled " The noes have it/ when a division was called for with the following result : — ■ ; .... Ayes — Messrs Basstian, M'Clure, Clarke, Pratt,: Johnston, and Dalrymple. Noes — Messrs Longuet, Hately, Daniel, Boss, Hodgkinson, Monckton, Armstrong, Pearson, Calder, Howell, and Blacklock. ■ ; The original motion was then put and passed. ' r v : V •-■.■* On the motion ?of Mr Peaeson, the House went into committee, and the Bill was amended. The Chaibman having reported progress, the House adjourned at 11.10 until half pastil. a-a ;.-*■;; On re-assembling, the third reading was moved and seconded, and the Bill was read a third time and passed. • ■•> After a few minutes' desultory converversation with enquiries .from various members and replies from the Government, the Council oh the motion of Mr Aemsteong, was adjourned until 20th December. ■ ■■■-.