MEETING AT THE THEATRE ROYAL.

Southland Times, Issue 702, 29 July 1867, Page 2

MEETING AT THE THEATRE ROYAL.

. — ♦ A meeting was convened at the Theatre Eoyal on last Eriday evening, to hear the explanations of Messrs Lumsdon and Ross, members of the Government, on the course they pursued in the Council on the railway question. The attendance was not verynumerous, and comprised, a good sprinkling of the followers of the two speakers. Some "chaff" was indulged in on account of smoking not being allowed the audience, but fortunately the interference of the police was not necessary, and everything passed off quietly. Mr John Mitchell having been called to the chair, explained the object of the meeting. He said that certain mischievous misrepresentations had been made in regard to the course pursued by Messrs Lumsden and Eoss during the last session of the Provincial Council, and he hoped the meeting would give a patient hearing to theirdefence. .Mr Lumsden said he would preface his remarks with a statement in regard to a matter that probably the meeting generally did not understand, namely, it was not at all to be looked upon as an electioneering one. It was probable that ! both himself and Mr Eoss would very soon retire from political power, and they considered it due to their constituents to explain their actions in the Council (hear, hear), and more especially was that explanation demanded on account of the recent very great revival of the railway question. Many insinuations had been thrown abroad as to the action that he (Mr Lumsden) had taken. He had been looked upon as "the black sheep " of his party in regard to the resolutions submitted by the late Government with the view of forwarding railway extension. It was only lately that the cry for more railways was a term of reproach. It was so when he (the speaker) stood almost alone in support of railways. Now, however, "more railways" had become a cardinal article in the creed of our new political apostles, as promulgated from the secret chamber of that Association called the " Southland Electoral." He did not offer any explanation to the gentlemen of that Association, being convinced no explanation would satisfy them, or alter their previous opinions (hear, hear, and cheers) ; but he would j seek to disabuse the minds of those he might call his political friends of erroneous impressions which had been most j studiously spread abroad. One very peculiar statement, in reference to the action of himself and colleague iij. the Council, as to their opposing the Government resolutions in regard to railways, had been made, and which looked somewhat offensive, but which to him was only amusing, namely, that they had allowed themselves to be hoodwinked and made tools of by the squatters. As far as he could see, the case was almost the other way. A man could hardly be said to be hoodwinked unless he had allowed himself to be taken advantage of. The squatters certainly desired to prevent the Government resolution being carried, but he (Mr Lumsden) had frankly stated in Council his reasons for opposing the resolution. Indeed, he believed tlje head and front of his offending was that he had been too candid (hear, hear). It was known that the squatters were not generally favorable to a dissolution ; that, unless to serve a purpose, they were not favorable to a change of Government.- The party he was in thought that a change of Government was evidently wanted (loud cheers), and that, in order to this, a dis-. solution must be had (renewed .cheers), and the squatters were obliged to support the movement. He did not say they had led the Bquatters to understand this, but this was the effect — a dissolution was secured. His party considered that before such expensive railway works were gone into the constituents should have the opportunity

of electing men for the Council who would form a government in whom they had confidence to superintend those works. Our very last experience in railways—the finishing contract of the Bluff line—was a bungle as the first was. The speaker thought it would be better to give a brief history of his action in connection with the railway question. He had stood on that platform at a meeting in September last in support of railway extension, arid at that meeting and in the papers afterwards was black-balled, so that a change had come- over the spirit of the publics dream and not over his. He was then 'blamed for being far too fast. Since then he had been blamed for turning recreant, and again — the blackest crime of all — he had been blamed for returning to his first love. (Cheers and a laugh.) It was no use trying to satisfy everybody. It was like the children crying in the market place, we have piped unto you and ye have not danced, &c. It was impossible to reason with people of that sort. The day after the meeting referred to, he encountered a gentleman holding a high official position in the civil service of Southland estate, who said, in reference to this meeting, "My dear fellow it is no use talking about it — the General Government will not allow it." He (Mr Lumsden) thought that there was a liklihood of the General Government as trustees or liquidators for the province setting apart land for the construction of railways, seeing that tliese railways would form a good asset, and enhance the value of the provincial estate. "Oh !" the gentleman remarked, "don't you think that these gentlemen of the Eastern District who have such an interest in the matter — the companies — will make the railway themselves?" He (Mr Lumsden) said he hardly thought that likely as they were introducing traction engines. There was of course no harm in the gentleman holding the opinions he then expressed, nor in his holding them now. He (the speaker) was not stating it as his view that the plan submitted by Dr Knight and elucidated by Mr Stafford in his letters ought to be rejected. He was only insisting that it was no sin for the gentlemen alluded to now, to hold such^ views as he did then. After the meeting referred to, the railway question seemed to go asleep till he (the speaker) started it again by proposing a resolution in the Provincial. Council in January last, and he rather' thought it was that resolution that caused the correspondence with the General Government whioh led to the late discussion and dissolution of the Counci. The resolution was in favor of reserving land for public works. It was carried in the House without a division. He had heard nothing of the question after that till a memorandum of Dr Knight's was shown him by Mr Hamilton. After this he had very frequent visits from the gentleman in the high official position (laughter), who has taken great interest in this railway enterprsie, and whose present views on the subject contrast wonderfully with those he previously held. He seemed (said the speaker) to hnvo some doubts of me. I said to hint, of course, I quite approved of the scheme submitted, but 1 would not place the then existing Government in command of the power that would be placed in their hands by the passing- of the resolution lately submitted by the Government to the Council. (Cheers.) That there must be a change of Government — tbat I had no confidence in the then Government. (Eenewed cheers.) "All right there," said the gentleman iv the official position, " I have no confidence in them myself." (Cries of name? name?) Mr Lumsden did not know if it was right. Mr Perkins thought it was well enough known. . Mr Lumsden— Well, his name is Mr W. H. Pearson. (Laughter and cheers.) I said to him frankly that 1 was entirely friendly to the railway scheme, but I would not place the power of dealing with this vast expenditure in the hands of the then Government. "When he stated to me his acquiescence in that way I thought he was trying to hook a soft fish like me. (Laughter.) Said my friend— ** Vote the land, and then kick them out as fast as you can." (Cheers and laughter.) I said— "No; you put the cart before the horse." When the correspondence Mr Stafford was printed, and the whole scheme submitted to the Council as detailed in these letters, he did not think anything about the 36th clause of the Southland Waste Lands Act, but was under the impression that seeing the General Government was the chief creditor or liquidating trustee, he had no doubt they could set apart this land themselves, only they were a little timid and wanted a, confirmatory resolution from the Provincial Council. This 36th clause, however, when looked into, altered the case altogether. He doubted very much if there were 20 gentlemen in the'meeting who had studied that clause — who had read it even within the last two months. He would, with the leave of the meeting, read a portion of it. (Clause read, "If any person shall contract," &c.) From that clause it wa« evident that the Superintendent had power to appropriate land in payment of certain works without the intervention !of the Council. This power was, how- | ever, limited to the disposal of 250 acres ! for any one contract and a total quantity of 1000 acres in any one year. It was intended to thereby supplement the exertions of settlers in outlying districts in the formation of roads and bridges, &c. If the resolution of the late government had; been passed by the Council extending the provisions of 'that clause to 200,000 acres, the.government might haye snapped their fingers at ithe Council— the matter would have been beyond its control. That was a serious matter— the concession of such large powers without a cautious and prudent consideration beforehand. Singularly enough, Mr Stafford had from the first interpreted that clause quite clearly although the

local government had been so obtuse. He had seen — as shown by his letters — that before a special grant* of land could be asked for, a contract must have been entered into. That was what they complained of in the late government—they had entered into no contract before asking that the land should be .reserved. Therefore if the resolution had been passed nothing would have come of it, unless indeed the General Government acted upon it in error, when the local government might have been as independent of its control as of that of the Provincial Council. [Mr Lumsden here read extracts from the correspondence between His Honor and the Colonial Secretary in proof of his assertions.] This referred directly to the Oreti Eailway. Mr Stafford, however, in acknowledging receipt of the resolution moved by Mr Clerke, had again repeated that a contract must be made before applying the powers given under the 36th clause. There could be no doubt the late government put the cart before the horse, with what object he (Mr L.) did not know, but certainly the work would not have been more expedited if they had succeeded in their endeavors to pass the resolution. The principle of the advisability of railway extension was affirmed in the amendment, and a definite offer to construct, stating terms, &c, must be before the Council to guide them in their recommendations to the General Government. As regarded the Mataura line he regretted they were not in as good a pesition as with respect to the Oreti — the latter having been surveyed, and plans, &c, made, it was reasonable to suppose that an approximate estimate, perhaps a complete one of its cost could be given. From the tenor of His Honor's letters to Mr Stafford, it appeared quite clear that they could get a contractor to take the work on his terms, although probably not with the intention of giving one pound's worth of work for every acre of land. Rather he must be able to see how to make the contract pay, even if the land fetchee 14s or 15s per acre. He (the contractor) must be satisfied in the first instancd that through an obliging engineer or government he would be able to get payment for work before it was done (applause.) After recent disclosures he (Mr L.) felt that it was a ticklish matter to enter on sech a work without full information. However the present government only held office in the meantime, until the electors had an opportunity of expressing their views. With regard to the Mataura line, there were exceptional circumstances in its favor — the magnitude of the works already undertaken by the Company. But its propositions were not sufficiently matured to warrant the local Government in going to much expense as yet ; the letter of his Honor to Messrs Douglas, Alderson & Co., requesting a personal interview, written months ago, had never yet been replied to ; they had not thought fit to have a conversation on the matter. Still he (Mr L.) believed representations had been made to the head office of the Company at home, and replies were expected. Until these were rece ived 7 the Council could do nothing — no conditional contract could be entered into till then. It was to be hoped that a favorable answer would be given by the Company ; in the meantime the present Government had expedited as far as lay in their power the preliminary survey, &c. Owing to the illness of Mr Paterson, it was not so advanced as it would otherwise have been, although it must be remembered that the season had not been suited for field work, and therefore but little time was really lost. With regard to the comparative advantages of land and money payments, he thought they should show some consideration for the ■views of those favorable to the adoption of the latter course. His colleague (the hon. Dr Menzies) had endeavored to point out to the Council the desirability of waiting until the consolidation of the debts of the Colony was accomplished, when they might be able to borrow money and conserve the public estate. It had been well said that Government were the trustees of the national family, and as such bound to husband its resources with prudence and care. Now supposing a capitalist were coming to Southland with £200,000 to spend for the benefit of his family which would he be most likely to invest in, land or railways ? Suppose the Provincial Government to be that person would it not be better to have the land reserved to it? These were not the precise views he (Mr Lumsden) held— although he was quite disposed to believe that .£IO,OOO spent on immigration just now would do more real good to the province than 200,000 acres disposed of in the construction of a railway — he mentioned them to show that there were fair arguments on the other side. On the other hand it was to be urged that the Company took the land to improve it — that was his (Mr L.'s) view. The Company had done and were doing great good, but it was a question whether it fulfilled the highest purpose of colonization. The curse of the home country was the difficulty of getting land, held as it was by a privileged 'class ; but for old associations Britain would, he belie tred, be depopulated. Look at Prance, how little emigration took place from it: the land there was iv the hands of innumerable small holders attached to tho soil to such a degree as to offer no resistance to the law of conscription — one which would be resisted in England. Unless he (Mr L.) saw -that with regard to the Companies there was a prospect of the land ultimately getting into the hands of yeomen, he should be hopeless of the progress, of the province. [A slight disturbance was here caused by some person attempting to break the rule of "no smoking."] He (Mr L.) had the authority of ' his "friend 2£r Pearson for saying that wherever railways went the value of land was enhanced to £6 per acre. Without going so far as that, he (Mr L.) could not but admit that if by borrowing on good terma the- laad could be re-

served for population it would be well to adopt that course. He would not pledge himself to reject what he thought would be the cheapest mode in . the end (to borrow money) if it were possible, but otherwise in view of the necessity of forming a main trunk line and facilitating communication with outlying districts, he should give land. He thought — although that was not an election meeting — that before the next election the constituents should give these matters their serious consideration and take care at least that the management of their affairs was not handed over to a mere set of adventurers. There was one other matter he desired to touch upon — the Eceles agreement— a sore that might soon break out again pn the shape of a claim for £1500 a year. It was all very well of the late government to let the Council go with the. impression that they had nothing to. do with the arrangement. That late government was fully cognizant of the matter. When Dr Eceles was first corresponded with the negociations were to the effect that he should have payment for certain services, in land — 3000 acres, and the proposition was referred to the General Government for approval in the hope that if they agreed the matter would be settled. Mr Stafford, however replied that the General Government couldnotsanctionit. Otherwise,there would have been no necessity to ask the Provincial Council. That explanation gave the lie to the statement freely circulated " that the late Government had nothing to do with the Eceles arrangement;" Mr Young had lately made the same assertion in a letter to Mr Cowan ; no doubt it took him by surprise, as he "had entirely exonerated them." He (Mr L.) did' not care about mysteries or secret societies • for his own part, he thought there should be no mysteries in Government affairs. He would read an extract from minutes of a meeting of the Executive Council, held in April, 1866. (Minute read, to the following effect: — Present— Messrs Wood, Armstrong, Nurse, and Blacklock. Dr Eceles' terms — payment of travelling expenses, and 2000 acres of land, agreed to. Commission on land sales over acres, at the rate of 1 per ceut. Accepted and referred to the General Government for 'approval). In that the Provincial Council was ignored. He would now close his remarks (cries of "go on ! " and applause). a Mr William Lockhart asked Mr Lumsden's opinion about amalgamating the ' town with the Provincial debts ? Mr Lumsden replied that the Province was already responsible for the debts of the town, with the exception of Campbell & Eobertson's award, amounting to some L2OOO odd. A sum of L4OOO had been placed on the Estimates at the last session of the Provincial Council for the purpose of settling that claim, and, as that sum was nearly twice the amount of the award, he thought it was ridiculous to ask such a sum. The present Government, on taking office, had accepted the Estimates prepared by the former Executive. In a conversation with his Honor on the subject, the. Superintendent had informed Mr Clerke that he would render himself personally liable if the amount ; was wrongly voted. The Government had, therefore, thought it better to leave the. matter till the next meeting of the Provincial Council, in order to give them time to enquire into the case. It was manifestly absurd to ask for a larger sum to be voted than the amount of the claim referred to (hear, hear). As far as he (Mr Lumsden) was concerned, he thought it better for the Government to take over the town debts, as the town was not able to bear taxation. Mr Russell — Did you ever read the agreement between Dr Eceles and the Provincial Government? . Mr Lumsden — I did. Mr Russell — Was there not a proviso in that agreement that Dr Eceles was to be paid out of moneys to be voted by the Provincial Council ? and how can you reconcile that with your statement that, it was not intended to ask the consent of the Provincial Council to the agreement ? Mr Lumsden replied that that agreement containing the money consideration was not drawn up till the General Government had refused to agree to a land payment. If the matter could have been settled in that way there would have been no appeal to the Provincial Council (applause). . 4 . Mr Armstrong would put a question to Mr Lumsden as a business man. If he (Mr L.) had a certain stock of goods, and wanted to make improvements in his premises, and if he were offered his price for a portion of the goods, would he not prefer to sell the goods rather than borrow money for the purpose of effecting those improvements ? Mr Lumsden replied that if by doing so he could enhance the value of his stock, he would consider which was the wisest policy. Mr J. Eoss stated that his connexion [ with the Provincial Council was of a very i recent date. The very full .statement j that had been made by his colleague, Mr Lumsden, rendered it almost unnecessary for him to occupy much of the time of the meeting. There were but two subjects to which he should allnde to as important in his political career — : the Railways and the Tay-street petition. The petition for the sale of the Tay-street reserve he most thoroughly agreed with, and even desired a site for himself, but upon learning that it would be required for a Railway Station, he had ceased to urge, the subject. With reference to the Railways and the dissolution of the Council, he felt that the Council did not represent the country, and he had no confidence in the then existing Executive. He would state, it might seem strange — but it was a fact — that the no-confidence feeling was universal amongst the opposition party, and the Government itself proved that they had no confidence in themselves. The appointment of the Eetrenchment Committee was evidence of thei; weakness, He therefore believed,

a dissolution desirable, and joined to bring it about. It had been frequently stated the amendment moved by Mr Gierke,, upon which the Blacklock Ministry had succumbed, was injurious to the progress of the railway movement. Such was not the case — it was nothing of the, kind. The resolution if it had been passed would not have advanced the railways one bit. It might have been intended to have caught Mr Stafford in a trap, but that was folly. No minister or Government had power to allocate the land required until the 36th Clause of the Southland Waste Act had been completed with. The amendment fully recognised the principle of the resolution, but placed the carrying, of it -out on a more business basis. It had been stated that the amendment arose with the Squatters." He would tell them that such reports were incorrect. It was written by himself, at the dictation of Mr Lumsden. The idea of the amendment arose outside the Council Hall. Several members, agreeing that a dissolution was desirable, they went to the Clarendon Hotel, andthe subject was debated and action taken. Instead of being controlled by the Squatters, when some of that body wished to alter it, he refused to go any further. It had been said that the then Government had, by a Railway Commission Ordinance, removed all ground for opposition upon the question of the appropriation of the funds. This was a most erroneous statement. Had that Ordinance been passed it, would have thrown the entire control into the hands of the Government, indirectly if not directly. He again repeated that the amendment, as much the resolution, affirmed the principle of taking land for railways, and by the course that had been pursued, no extra delay would arise. It must be remembered* that all the chief portion ofthe iron work would have to be brought from England, which would cause a delay of some twelve months before work could be commenced, as it must be kept in mind that the earthwork on the Northern line is already done. He was a great advocate for railways, but confessed that he had somewhat changed his views. The 200,000 acres of land for the railway's would do very little good for the province, the larger portion of the money would not be spent in the place, but sent home, and if the Company undertook the work, the best land along the line would be taken up by it. He was in favor of a cheap line, such as had been formed in Queensland, and the Dan Mountain line at Nelson, which were constructed for some £3000 a mile, but he did to fell able to view favorably the expensive undertaking of £SOOO per mile. . Mr Pratt, in rising to propose " that the thanks of this meeting he given to Messrs Lumsden and Ross, for the statement they had given of their conduct in the Council, during the last session." It was a duty that all electors owe to their representatives to acknowledge their coming before their constitu tents to give an account of the stewardship. It was their duty to recognise those who come forward to redress a wrong whereever found He belived the action that had been taken by these gentlemen was the right course to adopt. There was no confidence in the ex-ministers, and he questioned if there ever would have been in any Ministry unless the dissolution had been allowed. There was a gentleman present, who was a member of the late Government — Mr Armstrong — the no-confidence expressions were not intended for him, for he believed him to be too honorable a man to deserve them.. Mr Crouch seconded the resolution. He did not deem it necessary for him to make any remarks, inasmuch as he felt ' assured that it would be carried. j Mr Hume moved as an amendment, "thas the explanatory statement ofi Messrs Lumsden and Ross, relative to their actions during the last session of the Provincial Council, is not satisfactory to this meeting." Mr J. H. Smith seconded. Upon the amendment being put, the Chairman declared it lost, and the original motion carried. Mr Lumsden acknowledged the compliment, and remarked that he thoroughly approved of the views that had been expressed by the " Times," as to the election of the Superintendent, It ought to be vested in the general body of the electors and not in the Council. He should be almost disposed to poll the people as had been done recently in Otago on an important question. A vote of thanks was given to the Chairman, and the meeting terminated. *■