FRIDAY, JAN. 25. EVENING SITTING.

Southland Times, Issue 625, 30 January 1867, Page 2

FRIDAY, JAN. 25. EVENING SITTING.

Present, — The Speaker, Messrs Howell, Swale, Pearson, Johnston, Lumsden, Armstrong, Blacklock, Clerke, Toshack, Crerar, Cowan, Clark, Cuthbertson, Nurse, Wood, and Drs Hodgkinson. and Menzies. Mr Cowan (in the absence of Mr Cuthbertson, who had not then taken his ! seat,) proposed that the motion standing 1 m that gentleman's name — " To resume consideration of the report of the Ee--1 trenchment Committee," should be«post.- ----; poned till the Estimates were before the 1 House. Seconded by Mr Armstrong, and i agreed to. Mr Peabson resumed the debate on

Mr Cuthbertson' s motion, "that the form &c." In his (Mr F.s) opinion, the two great human motives for action were the thirst for gain, and tie thirst for applause. This might be a very low standard, but it was nevertheless a true one. What inducement could they give for men of ability to come forward and take an active part in politics? They had only two political positions, tho?e of Superintendent and Treasurer. They could not expect to obtain the services of educated gentlemen for nothing, for the simple. reason that educated gentlemen as well as others had to pay for everything they wanted. They paid the Provincial Treasurer a most miserable pittance, which would be all absorbed in entertaining strangers and others, which might be considered a necessity in his position. They were totally unfit to govern themselvesif they could not pay sufficiently for it ; and if they could not pay they could'nt expect to get work done for them. Another feature was the abuse heaped upon public men in the public prints. The hon. gentleman then referred in no measured terms to the News and its reputed editor, referring particularly to the fact of his having at one time been bankrupt, reading an extract from that journal of 7th May 1866, and resumed that he didn't mean to say that the people of the province would pay any attention to what he had leferred to, knowing the character of the journal. Parties at a distance wo aid imagine that they were all rogues and fools. He would again have occasion to refer to his " Victorian reminiscences." While in Ballaarat, the conversation at the hotel dinner table happened to turn upon Southland. One gentleman said — " But they have got 1 ail ways there?" "Yes," another replied, "but the railways are no good, they are not properly made." Their papers say so. It was not what they thought of themselves ; it is what others would think of them. Mr Pearson then referred to the ancient Greeks to illustrate the injustice of treating public servants unjustly ; but the feeling was gaining ground that it was impolitic to deal harshly with them. They might learn a great deal from the colony of Victoria. It has passed through all the stages of democracy, which lie trusted the colony of New Zealand might be spared. Public men were now beginning to mourn the day when Great Britain accorded the boon of a free constitution to these colonies. The province of Otago laboured under the same difficulty as we did. It appeared to him (Mr P.) absurd that the various Provincial Governments should undertake such works as they were doing. The Governmental expenditure for six months together with the interest onloans. in Otagoamountedto_sll3.2o2 ISsSd, and theproposed expenditure onroads andpub lie works was-£76,-_f>Sssßd. What contractor would require such an establishment to spend so small a sum? The state of public feeling was the same as here. Mr Pearson then referred to the reception of the Otago members on their return from the Assembly. The province of Canterbury had been held up as the pattern province of New Zealand,- and with some show of reason ; for there the men who took a part in politics were, as a mle, better educated and better born than the majority who went into politics in the other provinces. It took ,8157,586 5s 6d to govern that province. They had an unauthorised expenditure of ,£284,571 odd at one time. In our wildest moments we had never committed anything like that. In June last the balance due to the bank was =£11 1,751, and in October it was reduced to =£85,074. This province had gone through the fire, and reached the length of its tether The provinces of Otago and Canterbury had not yet reached theirs, it was simply a question of time. Public feeling was better in Canterbury than in the other provinces. Children and fools made statements, and parrots repeated them ; but sensible men took the trouble of inquiring into the facts. He (Mr P.) now came to the General Assembly. So far from the members of that body legislating for the good of the colony as a whole, they only considered the particular parts which they represented. They thus formed a power which was termed " log-rolling." He thought they should have a General Assembly to carry on the judicial system and regulate the tariff. One of the ablest members of the Assembly, Mr Yogel, had stated in the Provincial Council of Otago that he couldn't trust Mr Bell in a certain matter simply because he was a member for Southland. He (Mr P.) therefore concurred in the resolutions. So long as the provincial system existed they couldn't get a fair representation. They were a demoralised community, unfit to govern themselves. He looked forward to the time when the men of Southland should build up a morality that would remove the stigma of their incompetency to govern themselves. Mr Toshack said in raising the question whether the system of government as administered in New Zealand ought to be remodelled, the fact met them on the threshold of the enquiry, that whether the existing system was good or bad it would take a strong arm to disturb it. It was as well to recognise that fact at the outset, as in the event of their hopes not being realised the disappointment would not be so great. In the many discussions that had recently taken place on that question, various schemes had been dimly shadowed forth. He would allude to only two of these, and he selected N those two because the one stood in fronted opposition to the other. The first scheme was to divide the colony into six strong provinces, in a great measure independent of each other, presided over by a central Government, possessed of a certain amount of strength, but not strong enough to run counter to the wishes of the provinces. The other scheme was to separate the Middle Island from the North Island, and to give it one strong central Government for the whole Island, with an extended system of local

s-e f government for districts. He (Mr 'I.) jlid not say that either of these t.vo schemes was the best possible; but if they were compelled to choose between the two he would prefer the last. Brought up as they had been under the British Constitution, which bad been so often spoken of as " the envy aud admiration of the world," the last scheme was more in accordance with their ideas of constitutional government than the other, which was in reality a federation approaching pretty nearly to the nature of a republic. It was often said that " union is strength," but union was strength only so long as the parties to the union drew even. Now, if they considered what a large proportion of the revenue of the Middle Island had been spent in putting down Maori rebellions, he thought it would be allowed, at least in a pecuniary point of view, that they had been no gainers by their connection with the North It had sometimes been said that the colonists of the North fomented rebellion. Perhaps the charge was partly true. He (Mr T.) would mention one circumstance that came under his notice during a short stay he made in Auckland in 1859 ; and that was the selling of guns to the Maories. Every day natives were coming into the town and buying guns. It was surely very wrong to put guns into the hands of these ignorant savages. Again, he thought it .was very unfortunate that the Northern "Colonists interfered so much with the Imperial Government, for, if the Mother Country had been allowed to carry out her own plans, she would have paid every penny of the expenses. Mr Fitzgerald was wont to say that if the colony were divided into two, it would dwarf the minds of our statesmen. He (Mr T.) did not think there was much in that argument. The true statesmen would always rise superior to circumstances. As regarded the separation question, the strongest argument that he (Mr T.) knew was simply " that no nations ever yet rose to durable greatness, but through institutions in accordance with its spirit," and he considered that the laws and institutions which were suitable for the North Island, with its mixed population of savages and civilised men, could never be suitable for the Middle Island, with an exclusively European population. But, reparation or no separation, it was high time that the different provinces of New Zealand were laying down their petty local jealousies, and examining the public questions of the day in a wide and liberal spirit. Men might plan and plan again, but so far as regarded any plan that society proposed to itself, that favoring gale, the current of opinion might shift so often that little seeming progress might be made even after years ol" agitation ; but there would be progress notwithstanding. There's a Divinity that shapes our ends, Rough hew them how we may ; And he (Mr T.) doubted not but that the generations following would look back on such discussion as they were now engaged in, and regard them as exhibiting only a species of interesting ignorance. As science, literature, and public instruction extended their domain, a brighter day would dawn upon the world ! a day when the different tribes and sections of the human family would no longer fight and strive against one another, but would work in unison for the common weal, " when the motive force of the European and the subtle brain of the Arab, and the deft hand of the Mongol would be employed together to make the earth more lovely and more convenient for its people." Mr Clerke was astonished to hear the remarks that had fallen from the hon. member for Waianiwa with regard to the press. That gentleman must have been touched in a weak place that he felt so keenly about it. It was quite natural that there should be a feeling of distrust, they all distrusted one another. Several hon members had spoken of the difficulties in the way of a change, but there was one great difficulty under existing circumstances which had not yet been mentioned, and that was the allocation of the large loan which the General Government had raised. He (Mr Clerke) should support the resolutions, as he considered that they indicated a change in the right direction. Dr Menzies said they were discussing a set of resolutions, which if passed, would have no practical effect. He considered it would be better to allow the question to lapse now, so that it might be brought up at another time for further consideration. He should therefore move " the previous question." Dr Hodgkinson seconded, as he had intended to bring forward a motion to the same effect. Although separation was not mentioned in the resolutions, it was written on the face of them. Some of the speakers on this question had endeavored to make out that this was the most corrupt place on the face of the globe. He considered, therefore, that the resolutions would have no effect. Mr Cuthbertson protested against the mouth of the Council being shut by any manoeuvre. If they passed the motion proposed by the hon. member for Invercargill, they could not express an opinion on this important question this session. He had, however, determined to have it. Dr Menzies explained. Mr Wood did not see the necessity to raise such a " storm in a teapot." He was sorry to hear the remarks made by the hon. member for Waianiwa ; but he presumed they should make some allowance for his feelings being rather ruffled. He did not think it advisable that they should tie themselves down to any strict set of resolutions in committee ; and he would therefore suggest that they should be put to the House without a division. The House then divided on Dr Menzies' motion, as follows : — Ayes — Noes — Menzies Howell Hodgkinson Toshack Nurse Clarke, A. M.

Johnston Pearson Crerar (teller) Wood Clerke, T. M. Lumsden Armstrong Swale Cuthbertson (teller) A lengthy discussion ensued on points of order and the best mode of procedure. Another division took place upon the question of going into committee on the resolution, which was negatived by a majority of ten to five. — The Speaker expressed his disappointment that he would not have an opportunity of speaking ,to the question. Mr Cuthbertson briefly replied that he did not consider it desirable to continue the discussion any longer, as his intentions had been already fulfilled by the expression of opinion which had been given. He was not wedded to the resolution ; but he confessed to such a partiality as a parent feels for his own offspring. He considered that the Provincial system was, to use a hackneyed expression, *- rotten at the core." The system was too much of a counterfeit to mimic the magnitude of the British Constitution in a community of 7000 souls. To do any- 1 thing to perpetuate such a system (as the | member for Campbelltown would say) would be " a deed which my soul abhors." Whether they obtain a one government for the Middle Island or not, let them by all means lend their influence to do away with the present paltry, miserable system of government. An alteration in the first clause was agreed to. In place of " not" conducive, the words "no longer " conducive were substituted. Dr Menzies proposed that in the fourth clause, all the words between " that" and " a comprehensive system," &c, should be left out ; but as this was said to contain all the gist of the resolution, it was negatived on a division by eleven to two. The House then divided on the resolutions, with the following result : — Ayes — Noes — Toshack Menzies Howell Lumsden . Clark, A.M. Hodgkinson Nurse ■•- Johnston (teller) Clerke, T. M.* Crerar Pearson Armstrong Swale Cuthbertson (teller) The Cattle Trespass Ordinance was then read a third time ar.d passed. Dr Menzies laid on the table the report of the Committee on the best means to adopt to promote the sale of Waste Lands ; also the effect on the sale of land of the 15th clause of the Southand Debt Act ; as also the matter of the Pastoral Bents. He (Dr M.) then gave notice that at the next sittting he would move that the report be taken into consideration. Dr Menzies gave notice that at next sitting he would move " that a Committee be appointed consisting of Messrs Johnston, Clerke, Lumsden, Cuthbertson, and the mover, to consider the course ' which should be adopted with regard to the appointment of an officer in the Waste Lands department and the subsequent payment of his salary by the General Government, and report thereon." The house then adjourned at 10.45 p.m. till 7 p.m. on Monday.