PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Southland Times, Issue 625, 30 January 1867, Page 2

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

THUESDAY, JAN. 24. t EVENING SITTING.^ . . (Continuation of Debate on " Colonialism i v. Provincialism.") 1 Mr Lumsden agreed with resolutions ] as he considered the harsh treatment the 1 province had received from the General . Government necessitated such a change. ( He read in support of his views an article ( from a Wellington paper and also a state- ] ment made by Mr Stafford shewing the ( disadvantages under which the small pro- 1 vinces labored. The provincial system . had not worked satisfactorily as there j was a great want of a pure spirit of ; patriotism. Then Mr Stafford's policy was unfair as it hitherto had been to flatter the strong provinces and crush the , weak. They had proof of that when he [ endeavored to get a loan advanced to Auckland of -£150,000 that had no waste lands and then tell Southland that the General Government had made great sacrifices for her when at the very time it had all our land as security which were worth at the very least twice as much as our debt. He would suggest that they should go into committee on the resolutions as he wished to make slight alterations. Mr Wood said that after the brilliant light the hon. mover of the resolutions had thrown upon the subject he might have in courtesy stayed, to hear the debate. (Alluding to Mr Cuthbertsons absence from his place in the Council). However, he (Mr W.) would say that at another time and in another place, in discussion on the subject he might recall with advantage the remarks which had fallen from hon. members. He thought they should have clearer ideas of how far the original plan of nominating deputies from the differen-^provinces to meet and compare notes was likely to be carried out. When the larger provinces had agreed upon plans they would be in the way of attaining practical results, but it was hardly for Southland to attempt to take the lead. Moreover he thought it would not be well to bind down their representatives in the Geneial Assembly to one rigidly defined course, as they would thereby prevent their giving assistance toward carrying out other plans likely to prove of general benefit. He thought also that time was requisite for the members of assembly to form more mature opinions. Although at the last session many members were favorable to a change of some kind, he (Mr W.) did not believe there were twelve that could agree upon the particular form it should take "in black and white." He was quite prepared to admit the evils of the present system — the log-rolling &c. but they might be got rid of. Another evil of the present system was the reckless expenditure caused by the nine provinces dealing not only with their own funds but acting on the expectation or hope of getting something from the General Government — whose expenditure mem bers did not appear i o feel as if coming from the resources of their own provinces. It was quite, a common thing in the Assembly for members who pointed out where expenditure might be lessened, to be told — " Oh, you need'nt mind that, that is a General Government matter, the expense does not come out of your province." By a change that feeling might be got rid of. An assimilation of the land laws as to price, &c, was perhaps not so much required, for there existed great difference in the value of land. The injurious rivalry in roads and railways alluded to by the mover might hereafter be avoided by a judicious change. He would not on that occasion remark further than to express the opinion that on a question of so much gravity and importance they, as members of a small community, should not bind themselves to a strict line of action, or • they would be neutralising their power in time to come. Mr Johnston considered the question before the House a very comprehensive one — one that only experienced politicians could pretend to discuss. Still they should express their opinions. The comparative isolation of the communities for which provincial, or rather municipal, institutions were framed, no longer existed, while instead of remaining what they were intended to be — mere municipal establishments — they aped imperial governments. In New Zealand they had nine petty governments, employing 454 officials at a cost of .£125,000 per annum, besides the tenth — the General Government — whose expenditure was enormous, although he was not at the moment able to say the exact amount. No doubt small independent governments prosecuted colonisation with vigor, but the bloom of their manhood did not fulfil the promise of their yonth. The spirit of aggrandisation and rivalry ultimately told with evil effect. The hon. member for Riverton had instanced the states of North Ameiica — ancient Greece afforded another example of small states and Federal union, but what melancholy pictures. of intestine disorder and civil war had they not shown. The advocates of separation would do well to consider the understood object of the resolutions — to break the back of the northern preponderance. That, he (Mr J.) thought could be done away with by .the members for the Middle Island, going in for the general good, instead of " log-rolling." With regard to the 3rd clause of the resolution he (Mr J.) agreed that absorption into the larger province of Otago was not the best course, but rather that division should continue until ••provincial" merged into municipal institutions. He would have each district expend its own land revenue and a fair share of the Customs Eevenue in proportion to its quota to the consolidated fund. He did not believe in endowed municipalities because it favored corruption and thought the Victorian system of borough councils would be found to work well The Speaker interposed and said the debate should be confined to the general

principle— the details might be considered in committee. Mr .Armstrong supported the resolutions because he said that under the present system the three worst kinds of feeling—party feeling* class feeling, and personal feeling — had been brought into play, and the province now suffered therefrom. He thought the necessity for the existence of provinces no longer remained—the telegraph wire and steam communication from port to port had done that. The provincial system reminded him of an old lumbering coach carrying only odo passenger — it caused the reflection of " what an enormous expenditure of strength- what an amount of friction to so little purpose." He agreed that simplification was .desirable, and that absorption (by Otago) was not a step in that direction, as it would only strengthen the other province and weaken any efforts at consolidation. As he was almost certain the House would go into committee he would not offer further remark. Mr Pearson moved the adjournment of the debate to the next evening sitting. Mi Cuthbertson made a few explanatory remarks, and stated that any mention of the North Island had oeen purposely omitted by him, and he should look upon any amendment in committee involving a complete General Government separation as directly adverse to the resolutions, but he was quite willing to concede something in matters of detail. Dr Menzies. thought that notwithstanding the disclaimer of the hon member for Longwood (Mr Cuthbertson) that separation wouldbeanecessary result ofthe accomplishment of the object of the resolutions. The establishment of one provincial government for the Middle Island would be followed by its attempting to throw off the General Government. That such a spirit already existed on the part of the stronger Middle Island provinces was evident and when more powerful it would be carried on to action. There were difficulties in separation that could be hardly overcome — the South Island had a numerical preponderance in the Assembly and if the members had been united it could have been obtained, and equally, if they had desired to diminish the war expenditure they could have done so. The native war expenditure was, however, much diminished of late, and the " native difficulty " would soon disappear. They all knew how much had been done in the North Island of late by the volunteers and friendly natives— how the insurgents had been defeated at Hawke's Bay and on the West Coast. One proof of what he advanced was to be found in the fact that in the Assembly — where for many sessions the " native difficulty" had been always coming to the surface — last session he did not remember a single debate on it, but the Otago members werejestingly taunted that "the Otago difficulties" wereal ways recurring. TheMaorieswerediminishinginnumbers, and instead of 50,000 or 60,000— the number estimated a few years ago — there were now only 27,000 in the North Island. The members for the South Island would not carry out separation, nor would he (Dr M.) support it, for reasons he needed not then enter into. Auckland wanted to stand alone and have a separate government, hoping to be governed by " the old colonial laws, and did not seek a [ separation of the two islands. In other ? portions of the North Island the feeling • was dead against separation. Another ; question that would arise was the adjust- • ment of accounts of the old standing partnership. It was only by a ten-year- ' old agreement that the provincial govern- ' ments obtained the land revenue — prior 1 to that time it was colonial revenue. Now • if separation took place, the North would L insist on its share of the revenue from ' land sales in the Middle Island. He - agreed with that part of the resolutions " referring to local road boards — a plan ' which had gained favor in the Assembly, and had worked successfully in Victoria. LHe would like — if the population desired , it — to see them established all over the i country. Such a measure was to be taken • into consideration by the General Go- . vernment during the recess. If carried . into effect, the provinces would gradually become divided into a great number of • local governments. He did not agree ; with those who found fault with the . provincial governments — they were good . at first, and their functions could not be limited to those merely municipal — their • possession of the land revenue prevented '• that. They had well-defined functions, and they had colonised the country as no j central government could have done. , They might not even yet have fulfilled their design. He believed the evils they ; had caused were far outbalanced by the good they had done. There was another reason why they should not do anything to impair the unity of the colony — the time might arrive when it would be ne- • cessary to assume an independent posi- ? tion. In the event of a Continental or American war, Great Britain would be overtasked to protect them from marauding fleets. We might in a few years be projected into a nationality, and meanI while should avoid anything calculated . to impair our unity and strength. . The House adjourned at 11.40 p.m. ♦