PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Otago Daily Times, Issue 314, 22 December 1862, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

FRIDAY, December 19. The Speaker took the chair at a quarter after four o'clock; and ne opened the sitting with prayer. A LAW LIBRARY. MrJETARDY gave notice to move at the next sitting, that an address be presented to the Superintendent, for the appropriation of a sum of L 20rj, towards the formation of a Lave Library for the use of members of the legal profession. SUPPLY OF WATER FOR DUNEDIN. Mr WALKER (according to notice) asked the Government whether they have any intention of taking steps during the present session of the Provincial Council to provide a supply of water for the inhabitants of the town of Duncdin. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that the Government were not in a position to take any steps beyond that named by him at a previous sitting—to propose to the House to grant £150 to the provisional company, towards the cost oi the preliminary survey. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said tbat.as the report of the Selett Committee on the Waste - Lands Message had not arrived from the printer, anl as the Chairman was not present, he would ask that the consideration of it be postponed until the House was in Comtnitte on the Unimproved Laud Bill. Mr WALKER said he would move the resolutions of which he had given notice. It was desirable that tbe House should strengthen the hands of a bona fide Water Company which was likely to be formed. The paramount importance of an efficient water supply need hardly be dwelt upon; aud he thought that in. [ the resolutions nothing was asked which the Government might not reasonably be called upou to do in order to promote an object ot so much public utility. By passing the resolutions, and by introducing the Bill referred to, there could be no doubt that t!»e hands of the company would be amazingly strengthened, and the difficulty of obtaining capital very much mitigated. He avouM move the resolutions. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY suggested thac the resolutions should be proposed separately. Ha wished to make a few alterations. Mr WALKER consented, and the first three resolutions were adopted, as.follows:— " 1. That it. is desirable that steps should be taken immediately to provide a supoly of water for the use of the inhabitants of the Town of Dunedin. "2. That as the supply of water is important in a sanitary point of view, it is desirable that every encouragement should be given to carrying out that object by private enterprise. "3. For that purpose any Crown Lands reserved in the neighborhood of Dunedin, should, with the consent of the Provincial Council, be placed aS the disposal of any Company, with the constitution of which the Superintendent may ba satisfied, and upou such terms as the Government may deam advisable." Mr WALKER moved the following, as the fourth resolution.:— " 4. It isdesirable that on a Company being foinied on a satisfactory basis, that power stioutd be given to it to take such private lands its may i c found necessary to carry out the object of the Compiny; and to enter upou private laudi fol- the. purpo >c of laying down or removing pipes upon, paying surface damage." Tlw PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR objected that the proposed compensation would be insufficient, and generally that the resolution was objectionable. It would be enough to provide for a Bill giving all necessury legal powers. Mr WALKER consented to strike out the words after " basis," and to insert " a bill be introduced conferring upon it all the necessary powers for carrying out its objects." Mr CUTTEN regretted the decision of the honorable member. If the resolutions, as drawn, had been passed, they anight have had an effect on the next Council, which would have to deal with the Bill, and they would certainly have facilitated the formation ot the company. In a [sanitary point of view, the supply of water was decidedly^ a Government work; but as it was proposed to be taken up by a company, what should be done w:is to make it iv effect a Government work, so far as inspection and general control went, earned out by private funds. The powar to make compulsory rates was an essential one; and he would move as an amendment that the resolution as proposed be adhered to. He might explain that the notice that shares in the proposed company might be applied for had been withdrawn, until after the ground whence wafer was to be obtained had been examined, and the promoters had resolved meantime to regard themselves merely as an association for the promotion of a company. They would bear all preliminary expenses, at first, repaying themselves, of course, if a company was formed. The amendment was seconded ; but on a division, it was negatived, aud the resolution, as modified, was confirmed. The fifth resolution on the paper 'was withdrawn ; and the remaining one was adopted, as follows, the limitation of the guarantee being inserted at the re-* quest of the Provincial Secretary :— 5. That the Government guarantee five per cent for five years upon the paid-up capital of such company, and have the power to fix the amount of the compulsory rate, and alter the same from time to time. NEW BILLS. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR laid on the table "An Ordinance for raising a Loan of Five Hundred Thousand Pounds for the Public Service of the Province of Otago, and tor providing a Sinking Fund for the liquidation thereof ;" " An Ordinance to amend the law relating to the Dog Nuisance ;" and " An Ordinance for Regulating the Publication of Government Advertisements.'' Each of the bills was read a first time and ordered to be printed ; and the second reading .of each was fixed for the next sitting. BILLS KEAD A THIRD TIME. The following -vtere read a third time and passed:— Dunedin Building Bill. Oamaru Town Board' Bill, Otago Representation Bill. Miners' Representation Bill. MESSAGES FROM THE SUPERINTENDENT. Messages No. 14 to 19, from his Honor the Superintendent, were "brought up and read. It was ordered thnt No?. 14 and 15 be considered in Committee of Supply, and the others before proceeding with the orders of the day. The following was No. 17: — December, 19th, 1862. The Superintendent recommends tbat provision be made for the following services, viz,:— £ s. d. 1. Hospital, Dunedin, fuel and light .. 200 0 0 2. Gaol, Dunedin, Contingencies (additional) .. 200 0 0 3. Fencing Town Belt, near the Water ofLeith 300 o 0. 4. Oamaru, Enclosing and laying down with grass. Esplanade ... .. 400 0 0 5. Ex avatingsite for temporary Lunatic Asylum .; ... 60 0 0 6. Temporary Museum for Geological Department ... 400 0 0 7. Court-hous,q, Molyneux 300 0 0 8. Marine Board, salary of four members .. 100 0 0 9. Salary of Attendant on Jetties, at night to look after Lamps, &c. ... 30 0 O 10. One Assistant Surveyor, at £280 ... 140 0 0 One Sub-Assistant Surveyor, at £230, •• ... ... 115 0 0 Two Survey Parties (additional) .. 055 0 O 11. Teachers aud Schools for Maories .. 250 0 0 12. Town Board, J)unedin, Inspector of Nuisances ... ... .. ... 40 12 0 13. Police, additional 3old Fields' allow. auce .. .. 500 0 0 24. Provincial Council Department, Speaker (additional) .. ... 59 0 0 Chairman of Committee, do. .. 25 0 O Clerk and Librarian, do. .. .. 25 0 0 15. Executive Council-^-Reconsideration of vote—Expenses ■of non-official , members, three, at LlOOperaunum, each L.150; three at L2OO each 300 0 O J. Richardson, Superintendent. DISTRICT BOABS. The report of the Select Committee onMessage.No. 4 (District Roads) was brought up by Mr HEN NIE (Mr Tayler acting as Speaker) and its. consideration, was ordered for the next meeting. SURVEY, ENGINEER'S AND ROADS DEPARTMENTS. Mr CULLIES brought up the report of this Committee, and the Standing Orders -were suspended, to allow of its immediate consideration. The report wast read. Sir GILLIES moved that it be received am? adopted. As to the Survey Department, tlfe CommJttee made suggestions which were highly approved ofrby the head of the department, who promised at once to give effect to them; therefore, the Committe did not dwell upon those matters. As to the other d© partments, the committee recommended that an engineer should he obtained from Great Britain WdeVote Mtneelf to the special work of laying out/Waia ;fcrurik roads. They also recommended that the strictest at-' " tection shoiudjfo given to securing ability, aittentida** and economy^ J6n> the part of subordinate officers ;la *" 1 the diFcharg^fHSheir duties, - Tiiis;wa3 cqasiderwtf' x - essential, because there Aad been very'generic lorn-A - "» plamts that lajrge gums Had been wasted fronihwaafc of -&P those quaUfi<Atu>iis (^a9bdi^>f/a^6fa^Qt swrroillittce/Mfi|;*S ) **

$hje report was received and adopted. BILLS ASSENTED TO BT THE StJPERIHTEHDEJrf. Message No. *0, \va* brought up from the Superintendent, assenting to the following Ordinances :— Dunedin Municipal Estate; Sheep Importation; Hospital; Pawnbrokers'; Dunedin Improvement Ordinance Amendment: .Destitute Persona' Relief; Sunday Observance; Police Regulation; Common Lodging Houses; Harbour Endowment Ordinance Amendment^ Town and Harbour • Improvement; Electric Telegraph; licensed, Theatres; Licensed Carriages; Thistle Prevention; Cattle > Branding; Licensed Auctioneers. . yROOii-MATIOK OF HUNDREDS. Message, No. 15, was as follows;— . ''The Superintendent forwards for. the consideration of the Council a map and definition of certain new Hundreds, which it is desirable to have proclaimed, in order to keep pace with the requirements of persons desiring to settle in the Province.. The Council is already in possession of the facts connected, with the quantity pf surveyed land in existing Hundreds, and that which it is proposed immediately to. survey in the same. With the exception of perhaps 100,000 acres, tbe land in question is r.ot of a very attractive character."

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved'that the House proceed to the consideration of this message. The motion having been agreed to, he said that the proposed Hundreds were four in number. One of them was on the Mataura on the borders of Southland, where the Government were assured that there was very fine agricultural land. The proposed name was " Tuturau Hundred," aud the contents were i estimated at 97 square miles. Another, between the Hawea and Wanaka Lakes, to be called the " Hawea Hundred," was estimated to contain 100 square miles; and a third, which was also in a gold-producina: district, was to be called the "Manuberikia Hundred." The fourth, or " Maniatoto Hundred," was on the Upper Taieri Plains, and would contain 82 square miles. For the position and size of these Hundreds, the Government were indebted to the Chief Surveyor. It would be seen from the evidence of the Chief Surveyor, that by. the end of next year he would have all the land in existing Hundreds surveyed ; and as some time was required for proclaiming Hundreds, even after the Council had declared them expedient, the Government thought it very desirable that these four should be submitted to the Council at once. As to> the two Hundreds ia auriferous districts, they would, of course, be carefully examined, so as to decide what portions of them were actually auriferous; aud the jffoclaiming of those portions, that were not so would be a most valuable step, seeing' that the best means of inducing the miners to settle would be to offer them good land near where they worked, in a country with, which they were well acquainted. The Maniatoto Hundred was described' as containing very good land, and as being a most desirable place for settlement. It would be for the Council to decide whether they were prepared at once to come to a resolution on this message, or whether its consideration should be deferred.

Mr WALKER said that the proposal had come so suddenly — there had been little opportunity for members to inform themselves on the subject, and the reasons given by the Government were so vague—that he thought the matter should be postponed to the next sitting, at least.

Mr CARGILL thought there had been a most important departure from the ordinary custom, in submitting the question to the Council. The proclamation of Hundreds was a matter of Executive detail, to be decided by the Government, after consideration of all the circumstances. There were private rights involved, with regard to which those interested ought, after fair notice, to have an opportunity of heing heard; and it seemed to him that to require the Council to pass resolutions like the present, would be to prejudice that fair judgment which ought to be given to all such cases. If the Council were in a position fairly to judge of all these matters, the resolutions would no doubb be of great value; but he did not sec that they were in a position to form any judgment whatever. Mr M'MASTER thought that no proposition as to Hundreds ought to have been submitted until after the discussion of the report of the Committee on the land proposals, which contained a recommendation on the subject. It might bf necessary to have a township on the Taieri Plain; and acertainamountof land might properly be proclaimed to encourage storekeepers, blacksmiths, and others, to settle ; but he could not see why 80.000 or 100,000 acres of land should be withdrawn from the only use to which it could profitably be put. He held that the Council were not competent to interfere in the matter.

Mr HOWORTH thought the Government had done right in submitting the matter to the Council: for tho&e whose land was included could now be heard before proclamation. He quite agreed with the resolutions ot the Land Committee. °If the gold fields proved as permanent as they seemed likely to he, it was very necessary that some of the food land in their neighborhood should be rought under cultivation ; for a large population could not continue to draw their supplies of produce from a place more than 100 miles off". Bringing such land into cullivation would directly conduce to the prosperity of the miners and the permanent welfare of the Province.

Mr HARDY said he had moved for returns as to the quantity of land really open for selection • and until they were supplied, he did not feel qualified to decide whether new Hundreds were necessary or not. The Council liad been sitting some time, but there had been no intimation of the intention to make this important proposal; and it was too much to ask that there should be a decision on it tbat night. He would move that the consideration of the message be postponed to the next sitting. ° Mr GILLIES seconded the motion. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that he had intimated that the question was wholly in the hands of the Council; and he would now consent to the posponement. PROPOSED MAIN BRANCH ROAD FROM OUTRAM TO WAIPORI RIVER. Message, No. 16, was to the following effect ••— ''With reference to the address for proclaiming an additional branch line, and making provision for tfie same, between the town of Outram and the Waipori River, the Superintendent is of opinion that any deviation from existing rules as laid down in the Bth and 9th Sessions of the Provincial Council, unless the result of mature deliberation mißht lead to very large expenditure in addition to that already appropriated. He would suggest that this subject bo resumed next Session; that the principles on which branch lines are to be recognised should then be laid down and 'applied to every district alike. Otherwise the appropriations for roads will never reach those quarters which have scarcely yet participated in the grants, and in which large quantities of land are beine sold ©very month." °

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved an address to the Superintendent, agreeing with the suggestion that tlxe matter be postponed Mr RENNIE (Mr Tayler having been temporarily chosen as Speaker) objected to the postponement; but after a short discussion, the motion was agreed to. PATENT SLIP AT PORT CHALMERS, In Message No. 18, his Honor the Superintendent "suggests of guaranteeing a dividend of six per cent to any company which may be formed for the purpose of the construction of a patent slip at Port Chalmers, for the repair of vessels, of large tonnage—the conditions of the guarantee to be defined by the Superintendent, and the construction, maintenance, cost, and fees chargeable, to be subject to the approval of the Provincial Government " The PROVINCAL SECRETARY briefly introduced this message. Mr CARGILL wished to know upon what principle six per cent was recommended as the amount of the guarantee. Mr REYNOLDS said the object was nuiinly to make known thnt the Government was ready to support any onewhe would come forward with a scheme ior supplying the want of a slip. It was clear that no.,hmg could be done during the recess beyond having some plan matured for the consideration of the next Council. Supposing it was found necessary that the guarantee should be, raised to seven per # cent, it could then be done. His own impression was that, six per cent, was a liberal guarantee; tor he believed that a patent slip would under proper management, pay a handsome dividend. Mr HARDY moved that a guarantee of six per cent, be given, provided that the expenditure do not "xceed L 30,000, with the proposed provisions as to • >ntrol. Mr CARGILL seconded the motion. ' Mr CTJTTEN thought that five per cent, would be quite enough to secure the economical constructionof a slip; and he moved an amendment substituting tbat amount. ° Mr HO WORTH seconded the amendment. Upon the suggestion of Mr HARDY, the term of the guarantee was fixed as "not more than seven year.*." The amendment of Mr CUTTEN was negatived, and the motion was adopted. LICENKKD HAWKERS' ORDINANCE. Message No.. 19, recommended an alteration in the time when tl^ Licensed Hawkers' Ordinance should come into opor:;tlon. The House went into Committee : Mr TAYLER in the Chair. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR explained that the suggestion .was thnt tbe application tor licenses Fnould be lodged in February, and the first meeting • r the J uahecs lor hearing applications be held iv iVinrcn. Mr HOWORTH nr^ued that the bill would bs useless. No hawker could get a living within most of the Resident Magistrates' districts. «, fh* P^) ™OfAL SOLICITOR was satisfied that the objection would prove as soundless us some ot the others made during.the sessiobby the honorable member. : '. ■■ . ■ The necessary alterations were made in the Bill • were reported on the House resuming,1 and were confirmed. -. ; , A ,f .■■ . .-■•.■'•■?; .; ■' ■;, ..■.:.' ■ . MARINE SURVE'SrOR AKIt ROAD BKCHNEEU. Wwsage Wo, 14 was as follows;— .

" The Superintendent suggests that provision be made for the following services':—

•'With a view to a thorough examination of the harbors, rivers, and lakes of tbe Province, it is essential th.it the services of a marine surveyor ami eniriaeer, of established reputation, should be obtained for a period of two years'; that the sum of XI,QOD be authorised to 1)9 expended annually for tliat purpose, with the usual travelling allowances ; that the pas?age money .of such officer be paid from Britain, or, from Australia as the case may" be, and the return passage be paid, if he-do not accept1 permanent employment under the Provincial Government. "The direction of the Gold lieaions of the Province havjne: now been ascertained beyond a doubt, it is (desirable that immediate steps should he taken to I connect the districts in which the mining population i wiil be engaged for some years, with the chief city and the ports of this Province. "To effect this object, and with a view to, a complete survey of the interior country, both for ordinary and railroads, it is essential that the services of an engineer of great experience, distinct from the read department, should be engaged for a period of two years; that the sum of LI,OQO annually be authorised to be expended for that purpose, with the usual traveling allowances, 1' his passage from Britain or Australia being paid, &c,; and further that two road surveyors be secured for the same period, at a salary of L 350 per annum, with travelling expenses, and be attached to his staff, on the conditions proposed for the Marine Surveyor.

Upon the motion of the PROVINCIAL SECRETARY, it was ordered that the message be considered in Committee of Snpply. -■ WASTE LANDS REPORT. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR' proposed to pass over the Unimproved Land Bill, which stood for second reaaing, according to the orders of the day, and to take the second reading of the Turnpikes Bill. The Unimproved Land Bill and the report of the Committee on Message No- 5 (Wa?te Lands) were necessarily connected ; and he had not had time to read the report, which had not.been in the hands of members more than a couple of hours. i Mr C AR(HLL moved that the House proceed with i the consideration of the Report in Message No. 5. Mr HO WORTH seconded the motion, which was c&rried. Mr CARGILL moved the adoption of the report (which was published in extenso in our last issue), The Committee had devoted a good deal of time to taking evidence and discussing it; but the real points i educed themselves to] very few. The present mode of dealing with the Waste Lands of the Crown was admitted to be unsatisfactory ; it was felt that lands were being parted with, without that f iir equivalent beiug got which the public had a right to expect. The first point that engaged the attention of the Committee was as to the real object sought in disposing of Crown Lands. • Was it merely to raise a certain amount of revenue; or were there other objects of more importance ? The Committee "discussed the point at some length; and they decided ! that the real equivalent to be sought was the improvement of the .land. Revenue took a secondary place ; for the price obtained for the land could scarcely be considered as its value—it \va3 merely a fee exacted | from those who had given to them the privilege of appropriating a certain area; whereas lands pub to profitable use, were direct and certain sources of revenue. Profitable occupation, then, for the purpose of improvement, was evidently the great end to be kept in view, and that without reference to the class of occupiers or the extent of individual occupation; for it appeared to the committee that there should be no endeavor to favor any particular cias3 of cultivators. The difficulty in dealing with the matter aro>e from the fact that the land was sold at a price which offered very great inducements to speculators. A man investing in land at LI or L 2 an acre, while a country was thinly peopled, must, if he could hold on, realise a large profit when the country became thickly populated, which here would evidently only require a very few years for its accomplishment. Another object kept prominently in view in times past, had been to sell land at a comparatively low price, as an attraction to emigrants. In the early history of all civilised settlements, some allurement of this kind was necessary," and to a certain extent had been relied upon as a means of drawing working people to the country. But Otago had got a little beyond that point now. It was no longer a matter of course that the best thing a man could do, whatever his previous occupation might have been,\vas to settle on a piece of land and cultivate <t; for labor was now so subdivided and organised, that it was requisite a man should know something of the business of cultivation, just as much as if he was entering upon any other business. Besides, there were now other attractions powerful enough to draw population very rapidly to the Province; and further,' this special means would soon cease to be available, because all the lands suited for pure agriculture would have passed from the Crown into private hands. Looking at all these circumstances the Committee had endeavoured to decide how it was best to deal with the remaining lands. The matter had over and ocr again been discussed in the Council; and it had been conceded that the regulation requiring improvement of the land was at once the most direct and simple means of securing what was desired. But with respect to purchases made hitherto, the requirement had been to a great extent allowed to fall into desuetude. The belief had grown that it could not, or would not, be enforced; and, certainly; under the disability of not being able to obtain a Crown title, lands had been, and were, held to a large extent for speculative purposes. The committee decided that the best course would be to enforce t'le conditions, not only with regard to lands sold, but also with regard to those to be sold, by means of a taX where improvements were not effected, He did not exactly see his way to that conclusion. He should prefer levying a tax upon all lands sold, which would have very uearly the same effect; for such a tax of Is or 2s an acre would fall very lightly on lands that had been improved to the extent perhaps of LlO or L2O an acre, but would be a very heavy impost indeed where purchases for simple holding had been made. But the majority of the committee decided to the contrary; and he had, of course, as chairman, embodied the recommendation in the report. It was re- ! commended lhat the upset price of land should be raise l' to 40s an acre. As far as the Committee could learn, the opinion was very general that the present price did not represent anything like the fair market value of pood land. It had been objected that the increased price would postpone indefinitely the sale of inferior lands ; but it appeared to the Committee thatalowupsetpri.ee could never secure the sale of such land, because, whatever the price, it was certain that good land would always be taken up first. On the other hand, the lapse of a very short time would suffice to bring what were called inferior lands up to the value of the better qualities now being disposed of. He quite agreed with the reasons given by the Chief Surveyor, why the plan of not selling lands until after the survey and the laying out of the road lines, should be adhered to. To leave the works to be done peaeemeal would probably cost as many shillings as it was now done for pence; and there was abundant evidence of the costly mischief resulting from dealing with land while road lines existed only on paper. He agreed also with the recommendations as to proclaiming Hundreds; but of course much would depend on the discretion of the Executive. He moved [ the adoption of the report. IMr HO WORTH in seconding the motion, referred at length to the different clauses of the report, and the reasons which led to their adoption. A discussion followed as to whether the report should be adopted or merely received. It ended in Mr CARGILL with the leave of the Committee, withdrawing his motion that the report be adopted, and moving that it be received. Mr HO WORTH seconded the motion, which was i unanimously agreed to. | The clauses were then taken and discussed seriatim. Mr CARGILL moved the adoption of the first clause. Mr HOWORTH seconded the motion, which was agreed to without discussion. The second clause was also adopted unanimously. Mr CARGILL in moving the third clause, hoped that it would receive serious consideration. Mr HOWORTH seconded the motion. He considered it quite cleur that the price at which land had been selling was not at all adequate to its value to any orie disposed to make use of it. Soling it low would by no means insure a settlement of the land, It would get into the hands of speculators who might hold it for years, and then sell it at a higher value Mr RENNI (5 was of opinion that raising the price to 40s would not beep land out of the hands of speculators. If it. was worth that to the settlers it was worth more to them. He thought the proposed tax would be sufficient security against speculators purchasing to any extent. Suppose they put oh a tax of 4s on the Waste Lauds it would be a much better meaus of preventing speculation. Mr HARDING considered that raising the price to ■L 2 would increase the value of all the land he had purchased, arid of that possessed by other members of Council. He contended that they should not increase the price .of land,'as it would not further the object they had in view. If they put on a large tax on unemployed laud, and enforced it, that would deter the mere capitalist from purchasing. Mr MM ASTER supported the views taken in thereport.; ,He was satisfied that if they did not raise the .price, ail the best land would soon pass from the Grown into the hands of capitalists. Mr HARDING moved the following as an amendment on the clause, "That the Committee are of opinion that if a Bill be carried for taxing unimproved lands, in accordance with the spirit of the Improvement clause of the Waste Land Regulations the upset price of rural land should not be raised." , Mr MARTIN seconded the amendment ■: The PROVINCIA£SECRETARy. £a ia the clause had caused him a great de^l'of anxiety. He thought that with a fair rate of taxation the speculator wpuld not venture to buy very largely the fiijest agricultural' lands; iHe was convinced that "a great quantity o£ land ww not worth £p an. acre, and in toe HtthtlrW

the^^CTe-la^ qtoH '•Theyf might po^^ that case what was to; be done with the -inferiori; Their dnlv alternative then would be to go to the Generai Assembly and ask powers to reduce price to 20s an facre. If they divided lie: would support the amendment: • Mr WALKER suggested thafc if the price: was raised to 40s, the Crown Grant should-be given at.■once.; y -;-£•'~iiio, / ■. ' ... ■ - ■ '.'• .-. Mr PATERSON said itSvas on* of the'raost difficult questions that had come before them. ; They mus either abolish..the' Regulations, and raise the price of land, oi enforethe Regulations, and let 20s be the price. He thought the latter the better course, and saw nothing to preveut its being earned out. Mr CUTTEN was surprised: to see two members of the Committee so diametrically opposed to the report they assisted in. drawing up. (Cries of "No, no/) He thought the House mixed up the political and revenue ideas' of "the question too* much. He supported the clause in the report, but would have a Crown grant given at once, which would be a great benefit, and would get rid of one objection people had to the system. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR wa? in favor of the 20s, but considered the discussion had been urced on with indecent haste. Members only got copies of the report that evening, so they could not have time to be thoroughly acquainted witlr the subject. Mr HOWORTH said that two years ago the question was fully discussed. Then the land was sold at 10s. per acre, when it was found to be passing to speculators, and it was considered that the only way to prevent this was by doubling the price. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY referred to the complaint of an honorable member, that two membars of Committee had turned round. He always thought it was not necessary to-be unanimous in adopting the clause of a report, and he knew of nothing to binder the minority from speaking aeainst it in a Committee of the House. He suggested that when sitting as a House they should respectfully request his Honor the Superintendent, to reserve all Crown lands of good qunlity til! the Unimproved Lands -Bill had received the sanction of his Excellency the Governor. In the event of this being refused, a special meeting of the Council could be held to consider what was necessary under the circumstances. MrCARGfLL, amid cries of '* question," said it | would be a pity if the subject did not receive due consideration, and it would be still more to be regretted, if it were decided by a narrow majority, as it was likely to be. In deciding it one fact ought to be kept strongly in view. Notwithstanding improve^ I ment clauses, if Jand was thrown open for sale at 2)s per acre, they might be absolutely certain all would be purchased at that price. It was altogether vain to say that taxation at the end of four years, would deter speculators from purchasing. The best land was .selling at £2 now, and the process by which it had been raised was still going- on. So long as there were but a few scattered people living at long distances from each other, land was difficult to sell at any price, so much so that in many cases the Government raise:! a sum to induce people to settle, and give the place a "spurt." In this way they were obliged to throw open a large extent of land very often without conditions; but the case was different now. The Committee divided upon the amendment, when'there v/ere — Ayes. 13; Messrs Dick, M'Glashan, Gillies, Rennie, Steele, Martin, Walker, Kilgour, Reynolds, Paterson, Fenwick, Todd, Hardy. Noes, 5 ; Messrs M'Master, Howorth, Cutten, Oswin, Cargill. • The remaining clauses were adopted without discussion. The House resumed, and the Chairman reported progress. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved that the report be adopted by the House, which was unanimously agreed to. UNIMFUOVED LAND BILL. I The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR moved the second reading of this Bill, which was agreed to. #In Committee the clauses were agreed to without discussion, with the exception of the second, on which a debate took place, whether the penalty shou'd be 2s or 4s ; ultimately it was agreed that it should be 3s. TURNPIKE 3 BIIi% This bill was read a second time and committed : and the clauses were agreed to. The House then resolved into a Committee of Supply to consider the SUPPLEMENTAY ESTIMATES. The following recommended by his Honor the Superintendent were all voted -without auy discussion : — Road Engineer, year's salary, L 1,200. Hospital Department, L2OO. Gaol Contingencies, L2OO. Fencing part of Town Belt at Water of Leith, L3OO. Enclosing and laying down with grass the Esplanade at Oamaru, L4OO. Excavating site ; for temporary Lunatic Asylum, L6O. Temporary Museum, Geological department, L4OO. Court-house at Molyneux, L3OQ. Salary of members of Marine Board, LIOO. Attendance of lamplighters at Jetties, L 35. Assistant Surveyor, Ll4O.- ' « Sub-assistant do, Llls. Two Survey parties, L 650. Teachers in schools for Maories, provided they give the same, L 250. Inspector of Nuisances, L4O 12s. Additional police to gold fields, LSCO. Additional to the Speaker of the House, LSO. Ditto to Chairman ot Committees, L 25. Clerk and Librarian, L 925. _ Salary of non-official members of Executive Council, Ll5O (in addition to a previous vote). The House resumed and progress was reported. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved that the House adjourn till next day at noon. After some conversation, this was agreed to on the understanding that the sitting should not extend over two hours. The House then adjourned at a quarter to one o'clock. SATURDAY, DECEMBER 20. The Speaker took the chair at twelve o'clock and opened the sitting with prayer. PLEURO PNETJiIONIA. Mr HARDY gave notice to ask, at the next sitting, what means had been adopted by the Government to prevent the introduction of pleuro pneumonia. NOTICES OV MOTION. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY gave the following notices of motion for the next sitting:— "That his Honorthe Superintendent be respectfully requested to reserve the best agricultural laud 3 from sale until the decision of his Excellency the Governor on the Unimproved Lands Bill has been obtained. "That his Honor be respectfully requested, should his Excellency not give his assent to the Unimproved Lands Bill to recommend to his Excellency that the i price of Crown Lands he raised to L 2 per acre; aad ! that, under any circumstances, his Honor be respectfully requested to put the best agricultural land into the market only gradually. ' 'That his Honor the Superintendent be authorised to expend any sums which may be necessary for passages of Taranaki settlers to the Province, in further- ! ance of the resolution of this Council. "That his Honor the Superintendent be respectfully requested to apply to his Excellency the Governor for a dissolution of the Provincial Council immediately after the close of the present Session." Mr MARTIN gave notice to move—" That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, requesting him to lake such steps as may be necessary for putting the settlers of Green Island in possession of their Cemetery" Reserve." A QUESTION OS" PRIVILEGE. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY wished to call attention to something which had occurred in connection with one of the newspapers. On two occasions, he thought, within the last week, that paper had used certain documents, reports from committees, which the House had ■ simply ordered to be printed. It might be said that having been laid on the table, they thus became the property of the public; but he was rather inclined to consider that, until they had been printed, and copies were in possession of members, they were not public property. He would not take up the matter as one of privilege; but he would suggest that the Speaker should give directions that in future no paper should be used by the newspapers until copies had been delivered to members. What he complained of had simply arisen from rthe fact— that the contractor lor printing1 Council Papers happened also to be the printer of the Daily Times, and thus the documents had got into the hands of the I Editor. What had been done was giving a preference to one; portion of the press and to the public, over the other newspaper, and even over honorable members themselves. : . ; The SPEAKER said he.entirely concurred in the suggestion and would give effect to it. PROPOSED GKANT TOWARDS A LAW LIBRART. ■ Mr WALKER moved— ! "That a humble address be' presented to nis Honor the Superintendent, requesting that he will be pleased to place upon the Estimates the sum bf"two hundred pounds, for the purpose' of forming a law library for the use of the members of the legal, profession practising before the Courts of Law" of the Province." : .-. ■ " : . ; A Law Library, for the u?e of members of the profession attending the Courts-existed everywhere else, and was .extremely. necessary, here as elsewhere, for the due .administration of justice. He was informed that L2OO would be sufficient to iorm the nucleus of such p library. ; /..: ; , .•;.,-..■ 'The motion was not seconded. : : '-'__' WSXRIOTBOAD3.MESSA.aE. . :■ ■ *: . 'Mr RENNIE (Mr Tayler acting as Speaker) moved that the^Repprr, of the Select; Committee ou Message.. JNo. 4 (District Roads) be adopted; which."was agreed to; without discussion. :> ' - !.": '.Vi, -■■■■:,■'.' .;, ;? ? ■ i^oposßfl hew hundreds. J > - :u> ■, : A On the motion e£MrJ WALKER, the House;went '< into Committee for the further consideration of Mcs-i esgeNo, 15 (Hundreds),

i MrcGrHiEIBS isaid thaftnbonemtheHou^inore thin lie did the value of the Hundred system; 'but he wpuid nevertheless uphold the views of those who opposed that system, whenever' he thought that the proclamation of a particular liuiidred or hundreds wouM be likely only-to -withdraw land from present profitable occupation. ; .' He-thought that the Council ougatioji'to^beled'away. by .any ciy^He agreed with; those who%ere; engaged-in'pisforal-pursuits; inprotesting against ;the unnecessary proclamation of hundreds... It was a point of the very first iinportancevto be ascertained by Jfche Government, whether laud-proposed to be proclaimed was likely in a short period, to be; required for. settlement. He agreed withithe recommendations of the Committee on -I Message No. 5 (Waste Lands) that where there was only a general supposition that laud might be required for occupation any hundred proclaimed should be-of a limited extent. As to the hundreds nowproposed to be proclaimed he thought there was no evidence on which either to support or to oppose them. 'Mr WALKER asked what motion there was before the Committee. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY was not quite sure that having commenced the debate in the House, they, were justified in going into -Committee to continue the discussion. But he had yielded to what seemed to be the wish of honorable members; and he had how no objection to move in Committee the motion which he proposed before the House, to the effect that liis Honor be requested to declare the district described as the Maniatoto into a hundred. The resolution of the Committee of Waste Lands referred to lands of a doubtful character; but the Chief Surveyor had told the Government that the lands in I questioa were not doubtful in character. The Commissioner of Crown Lands declined to give any opinion with respect to the proper sites for Hundreds; i and, therefore, the Government were confined to the opinion of the Chief Surveyor. Mr HARDY would move as an amendment :— " That the Maniatoto Hundred, on account of its great distance from bush, and the doubtful nature < f its climate, is likely to prove unattractive to an agricultural population, and should, therefore, be brought under the recommendation Gonveyed in the report of the Select Committee on Land, referring to land in a situation ot a doubtfnl character as to attraction for population." - There was a time when he was an advocate for large hundreds, in whatever situation they might be ; but he had grown wi-er. He had seen one Hundred declared, every section in which had been purchased by one individual, and in another hundred there were not more than two holders. .Large quantities of land were in those cases withdrawn from those who had some title to them ; but they did nob pass into the hands of small cultivators, for whom they were no doubt intended. He believed that the only clause of the Report of the Waste Lands Committee on which the Cpmmittee were unanimous, was the last, recommending only small hundreds, where the attractiveness of the land was doubtful ; and as this hundred of Maniatoto was 60 miles from the diggings, and 60 miles from bush, he thought it came within the class Pointed out by the Chief Surveyor, as only calculated for a roadside township. Mr M'MASTER said that on a previous occasion when Hundreds were proposed, he told the House that the land would not pass into the hands of small capitalists intending to farm, but into the hands of speculators. The prediction had been verifier!; and he now declared that this Mauiatoto Hundred would not meet the requirements ot such a class. Runholders expected to have to give up their Jand when it was really needed for settlement; but they h»d a right to complain, and to say that it was hard, when they were called upon to retire merely on a supposition that it was possible that the laud might be needed for agricultural oceup-.tion. The country in question now had only been held under license for four years—not long enough to benefit those who embarked their capital in stocking it. The idea existed that it wouid be almost impossible to find a road for drays into the district ; and but for the energy and enterprise of the holders of one of the runs, the Messrs Wilson, he believed that the country would long have remained unknown. Those gentlemen devoted eight months to working their way up from the sea coast, the expense and labor involved being great. For the first two or three years, it was infested with dogs; the loss of sheep, added to the additional men necessitated by the dogs, represented a very considerable sum ; and it was only now that it could_ be considered that the land was profitably occupied by the holders. As one interested, he complained of the proposal to turn him out of this country merely for the sake of au experiment; but as far as a 3mall township, with some 5.000 acres of land round it, was concerned, he should be quite content to see the thing tried at once. Runholders, knew that they must recede before the advancing tide of settlement; but after hazarding their capital they ought not to-be called upon-to go back merely on theory or to gratify a cry. The last Hundred proclaimed in the North (18 months ago) was still unsurveyed. What was the result ] It had not gone to benefit the small capitalist class, but the holder had been seriously injured. For, as soon as the twelvemonth shad expired, aneighboriug runholder sent 300 or 400 head of cattle upon the run amongst the holder's sheep, and the loss that ensued was very great indeed. He was satisfied that if this Maniatoto Hundred was proclaimed, the only purchases made would be by the runholding class, for the purpose of getting the right to run sheep and cattle over it. It would not~4t could not—be used for agricultural purposes. For several years, efiwfcs had been made to grow oats in the district, but had failed, and although potatoes were grown, it was considered that to succeed was indeed a wonderful thing. He only asked the House, by acting on the recommendation of the Committee, to test whether this district-was likely to attract au agricultural population. Mr CARGILL thought there was reason to complain of the conduct of the Government, and especially with regard to the Maniototo Hundred; but he hopsd that the Committee, in dealing with it, would endeavor to look fairly at bo?h sides of the case. No doubt, the matter very materially affected private interests; and there were also public interests involved wliieh required something more than a yielding to a wholesale cry for hundreds here and there. The resolution already adopted recommended the House, where there was only a doubtful attraction to population, to proclaim hundreds only to a limited extent, on she double ground that it was needless to bring unnecessary sacrifices upon the holders of licenses for the country involved, and that it would be positively detrimental to the public interest that large tracts should be thrown waste, or be allowed to, be taken up by nei'hboriug runholders without anything like proper control. It had been acknowledged both in this Council and in the Legislative Assembly,, that the canceiment of licensesifor runs consequent upon the necessity that arose from the influx of a golddigging population, was not a canceiment recognised as part of the contract at the time the licenses were taken up. The'PROVINCIAL SECRETARY—Have you any evidence that it was so held in the Assembly "\ Mr CARGILL said that in the last Gold Fields Act there was a clause. introdu3ed providing for the establishment of what were called special settlements, of about 10,000 acres each, to be proclaimed by the Superintendent either within or without a gold field, the object being to provide for the settlement of population in connection with those fields. It was so introduced at the end of the Act, that the runholders whose land was taken would-not have been entitled to compensation under the compensation clause; and he was the means of having that clause struck out, or of having its operation confined to proclaimed gold fields; the intention being that fair compensation should be given to those who were compelled to give up their runs. There had been a quiet sort of working round the corner which he did not think could be regarded as fair dealing with the matter on its merits. During the last session, the Government felt it necessary to get rid of some, of the licenses of runs needed in connection with the gold fields. They refused to cancel themin the way required by the law; and when the holders of those licenses declined to part with them on the terms dictated, the Government replied, "If you don't'give up your license upon our terms, we will proclaim your run a hundred." " The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY: That was not in the last session. Mr CARGILL repeated that they had all that matter before them last session—that hundreds were recommended, in order to get rid of the incumbrauce of the runholder, and that the General Government very properly disallowed it, pointing out that it was a clear evasion, and saying, that if a run was needed for the gold fields, the license should be suspended in the proper way, and fair compensation given to the parties affected.: He was not aware of the particular locality of the hundred, or of the character ot the land; but he understood that there were honorable members who knew . both, and who declared that very little of the land was suitable for the purpose of agriculture. But here people holding country to which they attached particular value, on the very ground that, being back land, it was out of the way oi the ordinary proclamation of hundreds, and not likelyto.be needed for years-and years; but population streamed in, % to get thfc gold still further back; • and without consideration it was proposed at once, by a sweeping measure, to wipe out the licenses for some 30,00Q:oi\40,000 acres. ::. . MrSARDY:; 52,000 acres. ,■,-,--,..•-■;. : .-. .-.'■;. .Mr CARGILL :■ At the value at which that country ha/l?, been standing, -the licenses were probably , ' worth;L4,ooo to L5,00U for good country in: the ManuuerikiaDistrict, as far as he could learn, was very moderately valued at 2sper ; acrefor the lease. The: PROVINCIAL SECRETARY: We are on the Maniatoto Hundred, not oh the Manuherikia,i;; ; Mr; CARGILL • could not see ihe^ justice of the: thing.; -Therewere.Sections.in,Dunedin that were sold for* Ll2 10s, and wercnow bringing in LSOO a year* rent; .>■■; If apy portion of such Section was wanted for. streets, it-would; be jusb as reasonable to offer the owner at-the rate of Ll2los/ and to tell the> owner; jf* be ws&itediraore, thaths was a -grumbling, ; discontented tfeUow. Hefithought; that those- interested; were making a great concession^ in approvjngiof ithep^oohimatVon.ofsnialLEHiiridredsl lit rai&hfcbe alii very well for Howrable gentlemen to treai ntnjhoiaers

as a;Mrt^<^*fepbrary incumbmnce^o^o^ay 'tbat: they had become obhbxious;>were in the way.: aiiaiso; on; but he maintained that it behoved the Council to deal very carefully and gently with private interests such as were involved.- : He rshould prefer, and 4ie would move, the following amendment :— '^M* tQis Goramittee are not in ■possession of such? information as would'be necessary fordeterraining; the-precise position, of Hundreds to be pro-, claimed, but that His Honor's attention be respect-: lully directed to the general principles laid down in the resolution of Council, adopted upon consideration of thedßeport -of the Select Committee on Crown Lands." Mr MARTIN was understood to say that the speech of the honorable member who had just sat down had made him resolve to support the Government. . . rr Mr REYNOLDS demurred to the interpretation put upon the clause in the report of the SeleH Committee, it had reference to the proclamation of Hun drerls m those districts where only small villages were necessary. The opinion of Mr Thomson was that this Manutoto Hundred was the most important of ailthat whatever else the Government did, this Hundred should T be proclaimed. He admitted that, according to the Land . Regulations the proclamation of Hundreds was simply a matter for the Superintendent and the Executive ; but the Hou-=e had approved of. a Message stating that no such proclamatious would be made without the sanction of the Cruncil. He oeheved that it was desirable that in all cases the matter should come before the Council; but the Council could, of course, if pleased, say that they would have nothing to do with it The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR was not disposed to interfere with the rights of runholders, unless there was an urgent necessity for so doing Did that necessity exist now? Should they, or should they not. get more land into, the market ? Looking at the amount of the population, and the desire to nave.that population settled here, was it riaht or n~t that more Jand should be thrown open 1 He thought the necessity for new hundreds existed. They could not shut their eyes to the fact, that many of the settlers had prospered because of the existence of hundreds; and they had now become so connected with the system, that he held it to be indispensable to the existence of the province that the plan should be successfully carried out. Mr CARGILL : You are fighting with a shadow. We all acknowledge that. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR was notaffected by the statement that runholders were being attacked. JNo doubt it was a hardship to them now, and that he should feel it so, if concerned. But they took the Jand, subject to its being proclaimed hundreds, and at a rent which would not have been nearly so low if that risk had not existed. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that the honorable member for the North (Mr M'Mast-r) and the honorable member for the Western District (Sir Cargill) both referred to this'proposition as being' M? p?Rp a TTdT to g-r,ati fyl01; ** a yieldiD St0' a cry. Mi UAKGILL said he had never imputed such a thins:. What he said wa-s, that he trusted the CommiSeev«^ ?o nmU> ield to a P°Pular cry ior hundreds. nation allt-ed thafc he made the imThe PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that the statement of the honorable member for the North was, that it would be inexpedient to force runholders to go bacic for the sake of a theory or to gratify a cry At the close of his remarks he "did say that he was very loth to believe that the Government would proclaim large hundreds merely to gratify such a feeling ; but it must be presumed that his idea was that if, the Government sought to proclaim the Maniatoto Hundred they would do it more for the sake of a theory or to gratify a cry, than to subserve the public interest. He was happy to find that the honorable member for the Western District did not consider that the Government were yielding to a cry • for he believed the nonorable member must do the Government the credit of admitting that they were not so easily influenced by the public voice as, because of }td? d° they considered an injustice in iteelt. The honorable member suggested that upon the Government should be thrown the odium or injustice or proclaiming Hundreds in pastoral districts He (the Provincial Secretary) was prepared to take any odium which must rest upon the Government for proposing Hundreds where they were recommended by the responsible officers of the Government • and these now proposed were recommended by the Chief Surveyor, who seemed to the Government to be the responsible officer in the matter. They knew perfect.y well that in the North the lands offered would soon be bought up : he believed that if those now ve&eryedwere put into the market, they would not remain in the possession of the Government for three months. There was, therefore, evidently a necessity, to some extent, for proclaiming Hundreds. The I honorable member for the North argued especially agams: the Maniatoto Hundred. Personally he (the Provmaal Secretary) knew nothing of that land. The honorable member for Tokomairiro said that it was nofc, ?* *or a hundred ; but, knowing that there 1 were objections, he (the Provincial Secretary) had ' asked the Chief Surveyor his opinion of that hundred and ho replied that it was a very fit place for agricultural settlement. If the Committee thought that new hundreds were not wanted, let them refuse to sanction rihy of tlvse now proposed; if not, let them sanction the proposals and assist the Government Hundreds could not be immediately proclaimed. The General Government WO uld have to be appealed to and tney would most probably refer to the Chief Commissioner of Waste Lands ; there would thus be time tor objections to be heard, and the General i Government could then decide whether the objections should prevail orjthe Hundreds be proclaimed. Mr CARGILL said that he had.strictly guarded lurase.t from expressing any particular opinion upon the proposed Maniatoto Hundred. He spoke upon tna general principle. If what was proposed was 1 simply an extensioa of existing hundreds, he did not know that he objected to it. He would withdraw his I amendment m favor of that of Mr Hardy l there wer ? isioll On Mr HARD?'S amendment, ] Aye* 6: Messrs M'Master/.Cargill, Fenwick, Oswin, Walker, and Hardy. Noes, 9 : Messrs Steele, Gillies, Paterson, Rennie, Kilgour, Reynolds.. M'Glashan, Martin, and Dick I he amendment was therefore negatived. *. J- (H II&J LL a ßaii moved his amendment: and the division showed— . rrkY 3'nl-,': M res, srs Fenwi<*, M'Ma?ter. .Oawin, Hardy, Gillies, Walker, and Cargill. Noes, 8 : Messrs Steele, Kilgour, Paterson, Renme;■ Rsvnplds, Martin, M'Glashan, and Dick. • car d g alS° negatived ' tllc motion was put and The CHAIRMAN reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday. Shortly after two o'clock, the House adjourned to one o'clock this day (Monday).